Hey if I am actually put in the game, cant even be mad.
Safe zones and gankers/campers
@loopysnookems said in Safe zones and gankers/campers:
Ive come across a couple of instances, in the forums and in game, of the fun being sucked out of the game. With all the hard work put into collecting booty to have it easily taken at an outpost by people laying in wait. Fair scout ahead before dropping anchor but there are some scenarios where there is just pvp at an outpost. With minimal risk and high reward to camp/gank whats the point, I may not be making sense but this is just my thoughts on how I view safe zones and what seems fair (to me) to minimize camp/ganking.
Do all outpost need to be safe zones? No there should be an equal risk/reward for everyone
Should there be a safe zone? Yes there is an unmarked island at L,15 (top left) or even the rocks in the middle of the map M,13 (bottom right) why not make that a pirate port where pirates vote for pirate rules and rare items can be bought, sold, traded, or gambled with.
Should anyone be able to sell chests on an island that is in combat? No but here is my solution.
If any combat takes place within island territory (combat that hits land) all vendors should flee (despawn) to return once the fighting is over. Any cargo that has been dropped on land or in island vicinity waters durring the "flee" should be marked as "unwanted by ____ outpost" and "Was owned by (captains name)" with its safe zone island value increase (mentioned above). This way it keeps players moving (potentially) and it adds rarity to cargo not being turn in for gold or rep but as there could be legendary pirates there could be legendary booty with quite a story to tell (potentially).agree, disagree, agree to disagree add your thoughts about my words and thanks for reading
Sounds good and all... but if you want a safe place to guarantee turn ins, then you should also be able to at the cost of cutting the reward by 50%. I say this because there is no risk of you getting into a battle at an outpost. In alpha, it was always fun to run I to a group camping. We just have 1 or 2 guys jump ship while the other 2 attempt the assault and find their ship and set it a sail away from the outpost. So when they spawn it's not near the outpost. Or we circle to the back of an outpost and hide the high price chests and bait them with a common chest of almost no worth and fight.
I think safe zones would ruin the game and take all the fun and surprise out of the game. Just my opinion I've been testing this game for 6 to 7 months and it's not been a huge problem just got to adapt to the situation and come out on top.
@loopysnookems said in Safe zones and gankers/campers:
@natsu-v2 Camping an outpost takes a ton more skill, effort, and patience than doing the easy, repetitive, and trivial quests. I really don't get how people think engaging in island PvP is the easy way out, while doing the ridiculously trivial quests that don't take more than 2-5 minutes a piece is somehow "hard work."
True I could see the work behind the ambush but 2-5 minutes which voyages are you doing, maybe the beginner ones? But the issue I feel is it doesn't seem earned in the sense of risk/reward what risk does an ambush er take when they lay a trap, they can die but does it cost them sure maybe some time and they don't get their reward. Now reverse it the ambush e using their gold to get the voyage, uses their time to get the cargo, take it to an outpost, check outpost for other ships, move their cargo to turn in, the risk their time money reward.
If I seem unreasonable let me know Ill talk as level headed as I can I just feel ganking and camping is too risk free thats why I though about locking cargo so a fight for the reward can take place, the winner just has to take it somewhere else.
There is also this post about respawning which could be part of the issue as well
an easy fix to the current (bad pvp) delemmarespawning is a huge part of the issue right now, if they change how that works alot of the stuff people are complaining about will be solved.
@BPH-Wussie I feel people miss understand what I say and ask that you re read this section again
Do all outpost need to be safe zones? NO there should be an equal risk/reward for everyone.
now should there be a safe zone? Yes but it's not a "free" voyage turn in, best example I see floating about is tortuga.
With that clarified I feel there is a low risk high reward for camping/ganking outpost so in my opinion what I think is fair is to make it harder to turn in after such a sudden bushwhack. someone mentioned in another thread that screw the locking of cargo and dispawning but have the turn in run around, I like that idea I wouldn't mind that either.
I don't understand how people willingly go to Outposts with a ship docked outside. Spawn killed when starting the game I understand, but if you see a ship docked at an Outpost and continue towards it? You're only asking to get killed and your chests stolen. There are SIX Outposts. You have a spyglass. Keep a sharp eye and go to another place if the one you're going to is compromised. It's really that simple.
@psych0-knightro you just assume someone who's trying to ambush someone wouldn't hide their boat, something or another? So if someone wanting to turn in at an outpost and be safe would have to circle the island at least once to look for hiding ships which leaves them vulnerable to being ganked by hiding ships or pinned by other ship that saw what they were doing. with all that said there is a place in this game for that game play however risk/reward isn't equal in my opinion.
Before the spyglass, yes you had to circle the Outpost. I still recommend doing so. You need to be careful. If you are foolish enough to be caught at an Outpost with another crew already there, that's on you, and it's bad pirating. As a solo player you need to be CONSTANTLY looking behind your back. We shouldn't be holding hands in the game. You either play the game of
thronespirates, or you die.@psych0-knightro i'm sorry for sass but here I go. can the spyglass look through islands no well should still circle the island just encase they hid their ship and still lay in wait. and if circling the island is still the best course of defense my argument still stands it leaves you open to being ganked and pinned, ok extra precautions to avoid that from happening thats fine more work for my reward. any foolishness there? to the next topic never once did I mention being a solo player and I feel my argument still stand say 4v4 any ambush that is successful is now 3v4. now for the last bit what part of anything ive said is holding someones hand... as ive said before and will say again risk/reward between the 2 groups the "ambush er's" and "ambush e's" don't equal out. The ability to take someone elses reward and be able to turn it in with such little effort and in such a short amount of time I think is unfair, if you ambush someone it should be a fight for all the marbles who ever wins gets the spoils that way the ambush e can try to recover and defend what is theirs.
edit: even the scales so to speak
WALL OF TEXT
See, if you can get pinned by another ship, I call that bad seamanship. You have a WHOLE OCEAN! Just keep sailing! There is a learning curve for this game, and you should be able to sail out of many situations. That's the beauty of this game. You need to learn yourself. You don't get some power up that makes your character better. Is the turning in of the chests a little unfair? Maybe. But that just chalks down to pirating. Play the game, know the dangers that are out there, and figure out how to operate your ship to the fullest potential to avoid any situation. How to out maneuver people. How to get out of an ambush. It'll come with time! That's my two cents. You won't change my mind, I'm afraid.
@psych0-knightro Your absolutely right with time come experience and with more experience comes better skills, but im going to take a line from what you just posted.
Is the turning in of the chests a little unfair? Maybe. But that just chalks down to pirating.
I dunno if I understand that enough to agree with "chalks down to pirating" and the turning in with ease in a firefight is my issue. And I hope you understand I don't want to remove dangers from the game it it's self is part of it. I may be going off the deep end but its a situation where I could take every precaution and still get screwed regardless of skill.
@colonel-virus I understand your point of view, but pirates need someone to steal from as well ;-)
So a game of pirates with only pirates wouldn't mean much, don't you think?
Also corsair are a thing as well. They are pirates paying tax to the kings basically. So this would make sense with a safe town. You'd have less rewards because you'd pay a fee to the king of the island.
No safe zones.
No matter where you place a safe zone you will instantly mark that location as a place for people to camp with the intent to grief you.
Is just the island a safe zone? How far into the waters do the safe zone go?
You can be positive players will be sitting just inside the border of the safe zone ready to spring out and attack you before you can get inside of it.
The current system with multiple outposts works much better. When you are getting close to an outpost simply scamper up to the crows nest and use your spyglass to see if there are any ships at the outpost. If you see any masts then simply sail to another outpost.
We had many cases where we had good treasure onboard and decided to sail to another outpost rather than risk a skirmish when we saw ships anchored by the outpost we first intended to go to.
Again... anytime you create a safe zone there WILL be campers sitting at the border of the safe zone ready to ambush, simply because a lot of players will head to the safe zone thinking it's actually safe.
It sounds like the whole "safe zone" discussion is a lot of unfinished thoughts, and those of us who read it immediately think it's just a space where no one can attack which could lead to permanent camping.
I would be fine with a place where people can still attack me but if someone does then NPC's at cannons at the Outpost fire upon the attacking ship or something like that. Or some way of an NPC ship that travels the outposts and that itself can be attacked for a small booty (so as to entice attacking these npc ships that are SURE to have some gain for your crew rather than camp exclusively for other players). Maybe it's not $ bc that could break the game, but something. I mean, if there are ONLY pirates then are we actually pirates? It's be cool to see a proper naval ship once in a while to attack or be attacked by. Maybe it's very easily identifiable and provides a similar benefit that floating barrels do (small resupply with some risk) since the barrels usually have sharks and visibility as risk factors.
There's a lot of creative ways to go about the camping problem. I think "safe zone" is a very general concept so those of you saying no safe zones chill, the devs are NOT going to put an arbitrary space around outposts that means you can't attack. But they might do something neat idk.
I don't play many mmo's so maybe I'm totally an idiot and this is the game in it's entirity and those of you having issues will just have to wait the server and find a better one each time (which is what I do), but this is not the only game that has this problem.
At launch we'll be seeing a large increase of new players, which means less of a chance of people waiting to camp and get your stuff at outposts I assume (again idk much but I'm guessing since most newcomers will be occuppied with progression), but in the long term there is definitely going to be ways to deter those out there who are camping and stalking. Maybe the Kraken is a big enough threat out at sea that just going after ships is not realistic anymore. Maybe theres more activities at outposts (which we know there will be) to get players off their ships and on land to interact on a social level. Hell, the pub area could use just a few tweaks to get it to be a great social space. The barmaid could give info on ships at sea. Maybe there's a trading mechanic that is enabled when you drink together, idk the possibilities are endless.
I definitely think that by not trying any of these things or even telling players about ways they are going to combat any camping issues is hurting the game because all I see is friendly people leaving nonstop and that just means more hardcore people are staying. Might mean retention is lower at release because your early adopters are abandoning ship D:
But I love the game as is. I find lots of ways to get around campers (even though they do follow me at times for hours) but if it becomes I problem I quit and join a new server (presumably a new server). But that IS a bandaid on a problem that DOES happen. If it's happening to enough people maybe it's an issue to address. Idk I'm just having fun and I hope everyone else can have fun too.
@dr-farce What I really need to ask though is: Considering how many outposts there are and how easy it is to sail between them, is there really a need for a safe zone?
If there is another ship anchored at the outpost then sail to another one. It literally only takes a couple of minutes to get to another outpost, and there are so many of them that the chances of there being a ship at every outpost you go to is absolutely minimal.
So is there really a need for safe zones?
@ghroznak said in Safe zones and gankers/campers:
@dr-farce What I really need to ask though is: Considering how many outposts there are and how easy it is to sail between them, is there really a need for a safe zone?
If there is another ship anchored at the outpost then sail to another one. It literally only takes a couple of minutes to get to another outpost, and there are so many of them that the chances of there being a ship at every outpost you go to is absolutely minimal.
So is there really a need for safe zones?
The predominant problem I think many people are pointing out is that you can be followed from Outpost to Outpost. In addition you can be attacked if you are on the Outpost and no one is there, but an adversary comes upon you during your time at said Outpost. I don't understand the confusion about THESE lol. If you aren't encountering this problem at least during your first 5 hours of playing then I'd just assume you're the one hunting people down and propagating the idea of "no change" to encourage the pillaging and harmful behavior. Not pointing you out in particular, just saying it happens enough. I don't see how people can find it a harmful experience when you're just chilling and people try to follow you and murder you repeatedly lol. I mean I'm fine with it right now as long as I can change servers but for most normies I think it's not difficult to understand the problem.
If you see a ship at an Outpost and you go to another Outpost then that isn't the problem because those players at the Outpost aren't going after you. But if you get camp killed a ton of times it very clearly is a problem.
I've been hunted particularly cruelly and I flat out didn't want to play the rest of the afternoon having been bullied into submission just for the sake of "open seas pirating Yar let's kill everyone"
I actually don't even think the community is the problem, because it's up to the game mechanics to empower and influence gamer behavior, even in a sandbox game.
GTA online is prefominantly third person and encourages both player combat and player cooperation (but mostly combat to the average Joe). It's totally acceptable in that environment to get shot at and run over because you have little to lose in the way of progression, the game is in 3rd person and of an avatar that is always customized to your liking (you don't start over as a new character), and death/revival is immediate and you can regain losses every game session easily.
In a game like Sea of Thieves it's easy to see how an average, calm, friendly Joe may be super turned off by an extremely adversarial experience: the game is always in 1st person, and everything is done in realistic fashion (you interact with the ship not by pressing buttons but by actively adjusting masts and the direction of the ship), you have to physically look at maps, you have to be active about all parts of your voyage. Because so much personal involvement is required and for the most part you can sail the open seas, fighting and finding treasure as you go, it can be extremely jarring when someone boards your ship repeatedly and murders you for the sole purpose of ruinning your experience.
Most MMO's that have this kind of pvp experience allow for a less personal experience. In World of Warcraft if you're taken out you just respawn at different location and are given a temporary buff upon revival and are also given time to stay alive (I haven't played wow in a long time so maybe this has changed). Wow is depersonalized when it comes to pvp. Sea of Thieves is not. It's very easy to make someone who isn't Duke Nukem feel deterred when someone not only fires upon their ship after they've worked hard and personally drive their ship to get loot, but also to be hounded upon respawn. The core mechanics of Sea of Thieves rely on your utmost attention. Direction of wind, compass, sail unfurling, checking the map, and on top of that also looking out for enemy ships ALL the time (yes, you have to do this otherwise you'll always get easily attacked). What happens then is this finely and beautifully tuned experience, that becomes I credibly personal as you travel, can sharply and personally be halted by another player without any way of stopping them (yea you can attack them back, but I guarantee you most normies either get surprised and are docked so they automatically lose their ship unless the attacker is totally incompetent, or the player is not interested in combat at that time but there is no way to avoid it)
The solution everyone brings to the table, time And time again is:
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Get better (meaningless when it comes to personalized experience-breaking combat not initiated or wanted by the player presuming they are just foat out not able to compete)
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Check outposts and see if a ship or flair is there (for me this is never even the problem but maybe it is a solution some have missed)
I think the people who say "get better" are the people stalking other players. I think "get better" makes no sense even when applied to observatory non-combat tactics. I never go to meet another ship but hell if they see me and want to come after me there's nothing stopping them. And if we continue mentality of "you just have to learn to avoid/combat them" then yea some players can do that (like me) but I read a post earlier from a father who wanted to get his whole family into the game (which is radical imo), so what do they do when they are targeted over and over again? Just tell the kids to shut up and "get better?" No clearly not.
If the idea here is "be good or get out" then there's clearly no place for newcomers or casual players who aren't livestraming how they killed this one ship 5 times in a day and kept taking his lot. Albiet that's part of the experience and in no way should the fun be sucked out of the game for anyone, but there's no reason everyone can't have fun.
That's my 2 cents
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I have been playing since the 2nd alpha and griefing/camping is a huge concern. While I do think a Tortuga safe zone with lower rewards is a good option. What if there was a parlay/alliance system? You could raise a yellow parlay flag to another ship/crew... they get an alert asking if they would like to parlay... if they raise a green flag they agree and you form an alliance and you get 10% of the loot they turn in and vice versa. (strength in numbers) If you attack a ship/crew you have an alliance with maybe you build a reputation as a "vicious" pirate, but your life is more difficult in some way... maybe it lowers your guild reputations/rewards and/or if they kill you it's to the ghost ship for a longer period of time.
@ant-heuser-kush I think when camping and looting is easier and more gainful both in fun and the main tool for progression in the game ie gold then the game is empowering that play style and rewarding it too much. Maybe there's some social science to defend it idk, the game devs probably know more about the Dynamics. Right now we are very lucky that many early adopters want to just sail and have fun. But theres that whole 3 styles of players that the game, in beta form only, is divided improperly on, some may say.
I think if the players who didn't want to do the legwork outweighed those that did then the game would be so crazy lol like no one would progress and everyone would just meet at X spot every day to shoot cannonballs. I imagine, after seeing all the work put into this game, that that's not the only experience they want to lead players into behaving
@thedigitalsith I love the idea of a parlay system and using raised flags to signify different things :) even if it's cosmetic!
@ant-heuser-kush said in Safe zones and gankers/campers:
@dr-farce There will be people out there who will camp at the outpost because they don't want to do the legwork. There will be people out there whose sole intent is on sinking your ship and killing you just because they can. Those two types of players are going to turn a lot of people off. And the, "It's a pirate game" argument is moot.
A lot of the reason for excessive sinking of ships in the beta is also because people get a bit tired of digging up treasure chests to earn gold which will be wiped at end of beta anyways. So they go pick a fight to have some fun.
Then ontop of that you have a respawn mechanic in the game which places your respawned ship within view/spotting distance of where you got sunk so the ship that sunk you will be looking for sails and hey presto, they see a sail again and go for it and it turns out to be the same guy or crew they just sank.
Having more things to do in the full game and some tweaks to the respawning mechanics after ship has been sunk will go a long way towards reducing the constant attacks we see in the beta.
At least that is what I think.
@stafylocok Corsair's we're European privateers, called corsairs because of the religious war? This game is based in a Caribbean setting, rather than the Mediterranean (based on the islands, and vegetation).
What you want it privateers (pirates with government papers/insignia's). These will exist in the game, because you'll have the "trading" company. Where you as a pirate will transport and deliver goods, but at no point could pirates not raid or steal these goods.
I mean even if you added in safe zones and ports, you were never "truly" safe in pirate ports. It was still a lawless place, and you were still taking a risk. This should 100% be reflected in the game.
They need to fix the re spawning, and I think that would solve a lot of the issues people have tbh.
There is also the point that this is a beta, and nothing matters here. So a lot of people are probably just killing because it doesn't count towards anything. Personally I'll still kill everyone in the open game, because that's just the type of player I am, but I'm sure a lot of people wont.
@colonel-virus thanks for your answer mate. I was looking for the proper word, though Corsair isn't really linked with religion, nor is it in mediterranean only. (It's corso in Italian who are)
It is basically a pirate that has a letter from the government that says "you are allowed to attack any merchant ship from the countries of our enemies. Though you need to obey the laws of war".
It comes from "course" which means "race" in french. And when a corsair ship saw a merchant ship, they started a race with them to steal all their belongings.
Staf'
Edit : I re-read your post and it makes sense. I think Corsair lost it's proper meaning in translation to english, and the most used word for this is privateers indeed, thank's for that.
Said in [https://www.thoughtco.com/pirates-privateers-buccaneers-and-corsairs-2136214)
Corsair is a word in English applied to foreign privateers, generally either Muslim or French. The Barbary pirates, Muslims who terrorized the Mediterranean from the 14th until the 19th centuries, were often referred to as "corsairs" because they did not attack Muslim ships and often sold prisoners into slavery.
During the "Golden Age" of Piracy, French privateers were referred to as corsairs. It was a very negative term in English at the time. In 1668, Henry Morgan was deeply offended when a Spanish official called him a corsair (of course, he had just sacked the city of Portobello and was demanding a ransom for not burning it to the ground, so maybe the Spanish were offended, too).
@stafylocok Yea the English understand of Corsair is it applies only to the ottoman privateers from 14th Century to 17th Century.
Privateers is the word we use for government supported "pirates", which are basically pirates who played both sides (but if they got caught by the government they would lose their license).
I mean I'm not opposed to different outposts that reward different players, like trade only outposts (so trading company only, with warehouses etc on them), and they're heavily policed by NPC's. Killing there is like a death sentence to you (Elder Scrolls like). I just don't like the idea of removing the ability to kill each other all together.
@colonel-virus I 100% agree with your last post. Exactly what I had in mind when I wrote it.
It would include PvP-non-friendly users (like more PvE oriented people), but it would still be possible for us (real pirates :p) to sink their ship while on their way to this (unique) harbour.
This would also mean they would have to sail longer to get there whereas we can go to any outpost (with the risk of being attacked there if we don't scout properly).
I wouldn't allow only "company" members to go to the safe place though. I'll probably accept anyone there, but with less reward. And a reputation you would lose as soon as you attack anyone, and in the end you wouldn't be welcome there and shot on sight.
Staf'
I wouldn't allow only "company" members to go to the safe place though. I'll probably accept anyone there, but with less reward. And a reputation you would lose as soon as you attack anyone, and in the end you wouldn't be welcome there and shot on sight.
Yea this sounds like a good compromise rare could take. It also works with the current reputation system built in and the non-persistent jump in type gameplay they've developed.
They can also add in bonuses, if you're on-time, you get a % added on to your hand ins, based on your current rep level (5% per level, upto 25%). Each minute you're late, reduces the bonus by 1%.
If a pirate sinks you, they don't get the bonus at all, and a reduced price, because the trade company is accepting "stolen" goods. :D Plus the added "reputation" hit for the pirate, as you say, eventually making them KoS.
It would work almost exactly like the EvE online pirate standing system.
@ghroznak said in Safe zones and gankers/campers:
@dr-farce What I really need to ask though is: Considering how many outposts there are and how easy it is to sail between them, is there really a need for a safe zone?
If there is another ship anchored at the outpost then sail to another one. It literally only takes a couple of minutes to get to another outpost, and there are so many of them that the chances of there being a ship at every outpost you go to is absolutely minimal.
So is there really a need for safe zones?
By this argument; then there should be no issue with Pirates having to take their stolen goods to another outpost to redeem them instead of plucking them from someone right infront of the trader.
The issue with PVP is the rate of spawning/accessibility of "revenge" attacks which turn into grief attacks and the lack of comparable effort to steal said chests, turn around and then sell them on the exact same island.
If Outposts are "only" a minute away, it won't hurt those Chest Campers to take the ill gotten chest to their own boat and sail to a different Outpost to sell.
While there is room for discussion and disagreement on the Forums, it has to remain civil so that we can all feel welcome, no matter what our personal preference we have for gameplay. There has been suggestions for making the game more balanced and more inclusive of all players, which is admirable and always welcome.
In response to the multiple threads that have popped up concerning similar topics, we have decided to lock these threads and create a centralized topic so there can be discussions with other members in a more structured location.
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