An easy fix to the current "bad pvp" dilemma.

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    The existing critique of the lack of depth and repetitive nature of pvp (from beta feedback) is that the ease and location of respawns make fighting last way too long and it feels very tedious. It also ONLY rewards sinking a ship, and even then it's still a tedious process to get your loot.

    Example: Killing everyone on a ship and trying to loot a chest only to be stabbed in the back, sinking the ship and the other team spawning ontop of their loot for no reason other than to annoy the victor of the fight (with no repercussions), You sink an enemy ship and they sail back to you and kill you while doing something else within minutes (turning disputes into never ending brawls), etc.

    Summary of Points:

    1. no more mermaid camping
    2. no more endless fights
      Long term points:
    3. King of the Hill respawn system on boats
    4. Boat turn in for gold
    5. Matchmaking through instancing

    Easy Fixes:

    1. If your ship is sunk, you should respawn on the new ship.

    Respawning on the mermaid has no purpose and draws out fights that don't need to be drawn out. It's not fun to have to endlessly kill people who are just angry they lost and have nothing to lose. It's also wonky and doesn't feel real/kills immersion.

    1. Your ship, upon sinking, should respawn in a NEW instance...this way you avoid the never ending back and forth that happens because nobody ever "loses." This way a whole session isn't just a never ending battle between one side who can't just accept losing.

    These two fixes alone will simulate a perma-death system without the loser having to start over/sit in a death state for too long. The game should stay fun but fights need to be finite and end when the enemy team's ship is sunk.

    Implementing a specific "Revenge" vote on a crew (could cost a good amount of gold) that just ganked you could give you one chance to spawn back in the same instance and try and kill them. After that you can't vote for revenge again if you die against them again. (possibly only one revenge vote can be made a day to avoid abuse and voting every single time. If they can always come back, pvp basically becomes a 4 part fight where each side has to die twice...again...kills immersion)

    As far as long term options:

    1. A king of the hill style bell system can add options to how to take loot (the only option right now is to sink the enemy ship)

    Upon ringing the enemy crew's Crow's Nest bell after killing a member of their crew (needs to happen so players can be friendly and not turn off respawns by accident) they remove the ability for the other team to respawn on their ship. Either the bell is rung again by the side who owns the ship (allowing them to respawn on the ship again) or they wait till they all die and they can respawn but in a new instance.

    The crow's nest isn't used in fights, so making it a capture point allows the enemy team a new way to steal loot without just having to sink the enemy ship being the ONLY way to gain any benefit from PvP.

    1. Add a blackmarket turn in (chop shop) system for enemy boats. Allowing stealing a boat to be possible opens up new gameplay options.

    A few (few and far between) locations on the map house Black Market stalls where players can sell stolen ships for gold. The risk is that they have 2 people on a 4 man ship...meaning they are highly vulnerable and on their way they could be intercepted and taken down...the victor getting 2 ships in the process (if they didn't sink any) they can turn in. The stalls should be far away so that the option is risky and not just free gold.

    Blackmarket stalls would also be red-zones by design because they'd be a short distance away from chop-shops where they can make bank quickly. So over time players could know that player's around these islands are looking to chop your ship up and are more likely to pvp you.

    1. Finally, a matchmaking system could be implemented using this focusing on instancing. Each instance represents a rank (servers you get matched into with certain level of skill players)

    a) Losing your ship moves you down an instance rank.
    b) You get matched with players who are in your rank bracket. This way new players don't fight new players who don't even know what rotating the mast does (happens a lot) and getting challenges-less fights all the time.
    c) If public, it creates prestige and bragging rights for those in the most difficult instances. This creates incentive to keep playing and get better at the ship system.

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  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    The idea of having ships go up and down in rank and therefore change instance when sunk/crew wiped is one i think would work aswell, but maybe with some options given. Players could speak to the captain of the ferry of the damned and choose to go to a new instance, or decide to try and reclaim there treasure. They would have between 1-3 chances based on amount of items stolen from them before the game would automatically put them in a lower ranked instance. I think this shouldnt be a permanent rank though, but each session you would start in a mid hostility server and work your way up, or down, after every 3 ships sunk or lost or something.

    Though for this to work they would need some sort of low reward pve server or else the pvers would likely find some way to complain about this.

  • Lithus 7

    There shouldn’t be ANY ship respawns. Once you are “evicted” from your ship, you should be forced to respawn at a safe outpost until you and your crew EARN a new ship. Like PUBG, you shouldn’t have to worry about getting shot in the back from the same guy twice while looting his stuff.

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    @a-cranky-eskimo Those are a lot of great points!

    I really love the idea that they need to talk to the Ship of the Damned boat captain to get revenge, it would make him feel less like a prop and more like a "living" thing that matters. Especially if they animate him all creepy and the revenge respawn is dressed up.

    I'd specifically love, if you respawn for revenge, that the door opens up to a red background instead of white.

    As far as reseting instances, that could work to avoid isolating the better players from the rest of the playerbase. I do think seeing the same crew twice should be eventful. I also revenge should be a one time thing, 3 times would mean almost every fight would be in 4 parts and that's a long time investment for a casual game. Either revenge should cost the player a lot of gold or it should be a one time thing.

    You could sacrifice a portion of gold to try and get your big haul back (which would pay you back) or just move on and not waste the gold.

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    @lithus-7 That would literally run people away from the game, I understand hardcore mechanics make systems feel more rewarding, but that's a HUGE time investment to place on the game and the audience. Those who couldn't keep up just wouldn't play. It's a nice idea, but it targets a VERY different audience than the one SoT is going for. It also would make the game more niche and less popular in the mainstream.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @elborbycpt absolutely with the blood red ghost portal! Lol. Love your bell Idea and completely agree about ships being sellable and having value and a reason not to just sink them, this design adds a whole lot more meaning to ship combat without many downsides from a "casual gamer" perspective.

    Makes things that are part of the world matter more to, you need to avoid sinking if you say, left a hoard of chests on an island for some reason (hopefully with some purpose provided with game mechanic) or had plans to meet a parlayed crew on that instance, etc. really would make everything else they add to facilitate trading and voyages much more meaningful aswell.

  • Lithus 7

    @elborbycpt said in An easy fix to the current "bad pvp" dilemma.:

    @lithus-7 That would literally run people away from the game, I understand hardcore mechanics make systems feel more rewarding, but that's a HUGE time investment to place on the game and the audience. Those who couldn't keep up just wouldn't play. It's a nice idea, but it targets a VERY different audience than the one SoT is going for. It also would make the game more niche and less popular in the mainstream.

    Hardcore game mechanic? This game has you literally trimming multiple sail lines, working a compass, a wheel, loading cannons manually, patching holes, bucketing water and digging for treasure with severely obscure maps. But you’re worried about a less lenient respawn mechanic...smh

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    @lithus-7 I think you are confusing productive activity with reductive punishment that makes a player feel like they wasted time playing the game (when you lose your ship and start at square one...do you really want to have to climb the ladder all over again?)

    I just think that style of game would scare players away, I also don't think heavy punishment on death is equivalent to depth in the ship mechanic. People can look for gameplay depth without looking for gameplay to be HUGELY risk/reward heavy. A casual player could still enjoy more depth in ship mechanics, yes it has a knowledge floor they have to overcome but it's short term. You are suggesting they need to play many many many hours over again just to get back to where they were.

    Yeah, it makes those at the top more prestigious but it changes the focus of the game dramatically to being more vicious and cruel in nature. I don't agree with that philosophy and it's not a game I'd play casually.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @lithus-7 no he clearly wants a less lenient system, just one that fits with the various playstyles this game can cater to. Its not just a pvp arena game.

  • Captain TGills
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Just my two cents, but I think the only changes that need to be made regarding bad PvP as of commenting are as follows:

    1. If your ship sinks, you shouldn't respawn on the mermaid. I feel it's both a pain for the victors and the losers as it is rather pointless.
    2. The ship should respawn farther away than it currently does. We have had it where we sink a ship and within five minutes, they are already chasing us. Or we run into the same ship again and we engage them again and get called "the sort of people that camp in COD". I mean, we aren't targeting just you...

    I kinda enjoy the respawning on the ship because it adds a sense of urgency to looting a ship. As for the matchmaking after sinking, I feel that it would take too long to find another server to join and would ultimately make respawing a very painful thing to go through.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @emperor-tgills very possible about the matchmaking, but still a minute or two respawn in a game like this isnt much, what is your take on the bell KOTH idea. If a crew lets you climb all the way up that ladder with every gun able to knock you off do they really deserve a respawn? Lol

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    @emperor-tgills The ship spawning farther away is an even easier fix. Hopefully Rare at least can take the time to implement that. Instead of spawning an island away it should be 2 or 3 at least. This way there is a search for the person who beat you last time before you can attack again. Also, I've seen some more aggressive types abuse the fact the other team wills spawn nearby and find them, and then go after them again...even if they never wanted to pvp in the first place.

  • Captain TGills
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @a-cranky-eskimo It's very, very interesting... I get where the idea is coming from, and it could be pretty cool, but I have a feeling that it might be a little too much for four people to handle. With the crew that I run with, we are constantly running on the ship adjusting sales and firing. There might be too much going on to notice someone. However, in the event that they make it on your ship and make that looong climb to the top, the team that let that happen should have something happen to them.

    One problem I see is the balancing between the galleon and the sloop. On one hand, you have a long way to climb with possibly four people after you. On the other, it doesn't take long to climb a sloop's mast, and you would only have one or two people after you.

    @Elborbycpt Yeah, we try not to go after someone we just sunk unless it's to do a wave by and, on the one occasion, drop a chest off because it really was an epic battle, but it does happen on occasion. I myself haven't been camped like that, but I'm sure it could happen. I feel that the distant spawning would allow the crew to grab planks, balls, etc.. and to have enough time to either escape or continue with what they were doing. It's also really annoying when an enemy galleon respawns and comes after you over and over again...

  • JDGerbil
    Master

    @magvad

    I agree with points 1 and 2 of the easy fixes, they are a simple and elegant answers to multiple potential problems and at this point in game I would think be the most likely to make it to launch. I would add that these respawns should only be applied if sunk by non crew mate player action.

    The revenge mechanic would not be good idea as it basically nullifies point 2 of the easy fixes.

    As for the rest sounds like fun but, I think for much later down the road perhaps an expansion or dlc that add upon game play maybe even an altogether different game mode out side of the main game, a tournament mode etc.

  • D3monicDisast3r

    and then u have the opposite side of things you think it's fun to endlessly resplendent on your ship and meet a blunder buss to the face instantly ? happened to me last night the guy literally just stood at the wheel spawn on the sloop and killed me 5 times INSTANTLY, no loot on board either i might add.

    soo I think the respawn timer being a little longer wouldn't hurt, maybe a minute or 2. and adding the option to spawn at the nearest outpost might be worth adding. while I like the idea of buying a new ship. I think there should be 2 options here, dependant. 1 have the option to return to your ship say after 5 mins. so all looting can be done safely. 2 IF your ship is sunk to respawn the ship on either the outpost you are on or respawn on a new boat at another random outpost. sooo say if there is other of pvp on said outpost you can get away.

  • Lithus 7

    @magvad
    You keep talking about “scaring players away” but you’re also inviting more toxic and wreckkess players in. Your trade off has more cons than pros.

    The whole point and fear of traversing the vast expanse of the sea is being isolated and possibly marooned. You take that fear away when you allow players to respawn like their playing CoD. sorry but you know I’m right.

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    @lithus-7 But you also reward players who grief by causing more of an inconvenience to others when they are successful, if they start off with nothing they have nothing to lose anyway.

  • Magvad
    Master
    Insider

    @d3monicdisast3r Yeah they need the ability to talk to the captain of the ship of the damned (what a mouthful) and chose how and where you come back so you can avoid bad scenarios.

  • Hotel Actual
    Founder

    I definitely think they should also introduce a flag system in which players can display either a white flag for none hostile or a skull and bones for PVP ship. This would allow people who want to have friendly encounters to identify friendlies and foes. Yes enemies could trick you with a white flag but that's all part of the fun. Some very good points you've raise anyway.

  • LoopySNOOKEMS
    Marauder

    My idea for respawns

    1. number of crew alive and or on own boat effects respawn timers? (alive vs contesting take overs)
    2. If no crew member is own their boat no (boat)respawn available (must talk to flying dutchman to respawn with new boat, crew vote for island like voyages[if boat is within an island territory the crew cannot choose said island to respawn too], spawn with a pillar of green light to let surrounding ships know the situation)
    3. If a boat is sunk it will remain as a wreck for 5 minutes for proper looting of all its contents (no boat respawn same as 2)
    4. If a boat is sunk and its crew member/s are still alive a mermaid will appear to teleport them to shore (or if within an island territory to the ship of the dammed same as 2)
    5. Revenge, if the whole crew is on the ship of the dammed and they have not respawned the option for revenge is available at the low cost of each crew members total gold (all or nothing). With the tole paid the duchman steers up from the depths near the crew members ship and begins to circle the area (or anchored if within island territory) while the crew shoot cannons from the ship of the dammed, last 1 second for each 100 gold paid (min of 2-4 seconds depends on boat crew size) any gold paid under 100 is donated to the dutchman which he uses to pay the mermaid for their exemplary service. Cooldown 2hrs? and each crew member must have at least 100 gold pieces. Then same as 2, if you cant have your loot no one can but it might still be there.

    As for rep there have been posts about bounty board as a way to get good guy points (paragon) and just destroying any and all ships in your way as a way to get bad guy points (renegade). Points are awarded for sinking ships or stealing ships to turn in with the ladder being more worth while.

  • The1EyedTickler

    @magvad said in An easy fix to the current "bad pvp" dilemma.:

    @lithus-7 That would literally run people away from the game, I understand hardcore mechanics make systems feel more rewarding, but that's a HUGE time investment to place on the game and the audience. Those who couldn't keep up just wouldn't play. It's a nice idea, but it targets a VERY different audience than the one SoT is going for. It also would make the game more niche and less popular in the mainstream.

    The way it works now is making people run from the game. Are you OK with people being able to endlessly respawn at their mermaid, just cause they are sore losers and want to grief you after you've beaten them? I don't necessarily think you should lose your ship entirely when you die, but there has to be some sort of loss involved. The way it is now, I can take my ship out to sea and shoot down anyone without fear of losing anything. There is literally no risk/reward. It is simply just reward for people that do this, as they can just respawn without losing anything.

    The current respawn system is creating toxicity.

  • YANTO 3

    @the1eyedtickler i am sat here reading the forums because the respawns are so bad.... constant respawn has spoilt a great game for me.. if it stays like this, i will cancel my pre-order end of

  • Aprovoked Mango
    Insider
    Founder

    Respawning on the mermaid after your ship sunk should happen but ONLY once, the endless respawning is frustrating for everyone and is definitely something rare have been made aware of in alpha/pioneer testing.

    That said, its so you can have a last ditch effort at revenge or maybe sneak off with some treasure to hide it whilst the enemy are busy celebrating victory. Essentially youve died and you ship was sunk and youve respawned on the mermaid, theres your chance at doing something but if you die again its over, you respawn on the new ship.

    Im all for getting the captain on the ferry involved more, personally I think you should have to work off your debt of a new life by having to adjust some sails or raise an anchor (as hes picked up your soul) etc this would stagger respawning abit also.

  • SausijXzal
    Master

    @magvad said in An easy fix to the current "bad pvp" dilemma.:

    @a-cranky-eskimo Those are a lot of great points!

    I really love the idea that they need to talk to the Ship of the Damned boat captain to get revenge, it would make him feel less like a prop and more like a "living" thing that matters. Especially if they animate him all creepy and the revenge respawn is dressed up.

    I'd specifically love, if you respawn for revenge, that the door opens up to a red background instead of white.

    I love all of the points suggestions in OP, I especially love the idea of the revenge system but one more thing to add to yours Magvad; players skins and ship skins change to become Skeletal. This will make it clear to an opponent its a revenge attack.

    Additionally; anyone who is in a revenge state gets ONE hour. This is enough time for the whole team (if they die at odd times) to become skeletal and refind their target. The Skeletal person then dies proper at the end of the hour or when a member of the other crew is dead (which ever happens first, this means in a 4v4 scenario, each player has to make a kill).

    In the event the entire enemy team is killed, the former skeletal players are returned to life in the original instance.

    If you are killed by an Avenging Skeletal, you cannot then revenge against them. (To prevent combat loops)

    Either way the loser is killed and punted to a new instance.

  • IAmASaltySalami
    Founder

    I agree. PvP definitely needs to be reworked. The fact that they allow people to camp an outpost without their ship and just wait for people to show up to sell after a 2-3 hour long voyage just baffles me. A lot of wasted work and aggravation when you are just trying to move up in the ranks of that vendor, and without risk of the other pirates nonetheless. Rare needs to make a decision on what type of gameplay they are trying to convey with SoT.

  • KattTruewalker
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder
    Deckhand

    @ormc-popatop What I would do when checking for this, is to look for a mermaid or another ship in the vicinity - we've had occasions where this has happened and noticed these tell tale signs and just sailed off to the next Outpost.

  • IAmASaltySalami
    Founder

    @lithus-7 something to add on top of this might be a type of reputation system which decides how hard it is to get a new ship. Pirates that choose a life of theft should have a harder time doing things imo

  • Chosen Predator
    Founder

    or how about a bunch of rabid mermaids start attacking the players that have wipe out a crew, forcing them to flee away, giving the player that spawns enough time to flee and get out of the situation, I would love seeing mermaids pulling players into the water if they continue to harass a player, even attacking their ship

    make it so NPC get involved but it also has to prevent the other player from abusing that help lol

  • IAmASaltySalami
    Founder

    @katttruewalker said in An easy fix to the current "bad pvp" dilemma.:

    @ormc-popatop What I would do when checking for this, is to look for a mermaid or another ship in the vicinity - we've had occasions where this has happened and noticed these tell tale signs and just sailed off to the next Outpost.

    I didn’t think you could see other pirate’s mermaids.

  • KattTruewalker
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder
    Deckhand

    @ormc-popatop They're there in the water, you might not be able to see the blue smoke column.

  • Yagerweisster
    Insider
    Founder

    Or just give pve players a pvp free lobby to play in, make ads harder to kill with less valuable loot if necessary, but personally I’m sick and tired of pvp tool bags trolling my ship until I lobby hop or quit.

    Best both worlds, pvp players are free to troll for hours on end with no incentive other than being an a*****e and ruining others experiences and pve players are free to enjoy the game and not constantly have to deal with pos trolls with no lives.

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