Sailing Intuitiveness and Ship Speed Balancing

  • Warning: I'm a nerd.

    Let's start with Sailing Intuitiveness

    First: straight headwind. Sailing directly into a headwind makes little sense as is, but I think we all understand why forward motion, even into a headwind, is necessary in this game. That said, to have to have your sails squared (on any ship) in order for it to be the "fastest" setting, makes zero sense. Make it so that the fastest way to sail into a headwind is to have your sails fully tacked to one side or the other. The only reason you should have squared sails is with a straight tailwind.

    Second: sail management penalties. There should be significantly larger speed penalties across all ships when proper sail management is not done. Too often are larger ships able to maintain way too much speed regardless of how their sails are angled with wind. And sloops can keep squared sails and see minimal impact to their speed.

    Next, we'll move to Ship Speed Balancing

    Let's start with a baseline. We'll use the more widely accepted speed values in m/s for the different ships in the various wind conditions. I've used max speeds for each ship in the various wind conditions. We'll omit the recent evidence that suggests the brig is actually the fastest in a straight headwind.

    The "% Greater" column is used to show how much of an increase in speed one ship has over the next slowest ship in that same wind condition. As you can see, the differences are very inconsistent.

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    Now, I've created two separate proposals to try to balance the speeds. What I did for each of these proposals was eliminate differences/advantages for one of the four wind variances and made each ship have the same speed. This would allow for each ship type type to only have one wind condition in which they have an advantage.

    The color coding indicates whether a ship is getting a nerf, buff, or is unchanged in that wind condition.

    In Proposal A, Changing the crosswind (head) condition to be neutral across the ship types would be the least impactful to the average speed of the brig and galleon. It would result in a more significant buff for the sloop, while keeping it in a logical pecking order across the wind variances.

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    In Proposal B, it would be the most impactful to change the headwind condition to be neutral. It would result in a noticeably lower average speed for both the galleon and the brig while buffing the sloop. While it makes more sense to have each ship be neutral in a direct headwind, it would require some further adjusting and/or narrowing of the speed advantages of each ship type, which I'd rather avoid.

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    Let me know what other alterations you can think of. I love making spreadsheets and would love to create proposals C-Z lol.

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  • Nice. Both proposals are a good idea and the spreadsheets helped quite a bit!

  • @scurvywoof thanks! I played around with a bunch of different speed styles and scales, but the standard one just made the most sense.

  • what i would like to see is make the sloop the fastest boat. y? becauss its already out numbered and out manned against any other boat. give it something so it has a chance against bigger crews.

  • @madfrito99 said in Sailing Intuitiveness and Ship Speed Balancing:

    what i would like to see is make the sloop the fastest boat. y? because its already out numbered and out manned against any other boat. give it something so it has a chance against bigger crews.

    In my proposals, the sloop would be the fastest ship in one sailing condition just like the other two. Every ship would have an equal % advantage in its respective wind condition.

    Currently, the sloop has almost no way to chase, or run from, any other ship type regardless of how the wind changes.

  • @sweetsandman As i see here the sloop still is the slowest in 2 out of 3 situations (the 4th is always equal for everybody in your proposals) and since the sloop is already outmanned that seems to make it hard for the sloop. Especially solo sloopers are bad off.

    What i like to see most by the way is that a solo sloop is a little bit quicker then a duo sloop. That 2nd person brings some extra weight, so it would make sence. Also a duo sloop has advantages over solo sloops. Making a solo sloop a little faster then a duo sloop would make it a little more equal in my view.

  • @super87ghost said in Sailing Intuitiveness and Ship Speed Balancing:

    @sweetsandman As i see here the sloop still is the slowest in 2 out of 3 situations (the 4th is always equal for everybody in your proposals) and since the sloop is already outmanned that seems to make it hard for the sloop. Especially solo sloopers are bad off.

    What i like to see most by the way is that a solo sloop is a little bit quicker then a duo sloop. That 2nd person brings some extra weight, so it would make sence. Also a duo sloop has advantages over solo sloops. Making a solo sloop a little faster then a duo sloop would make it a little more equal in my view.

    The sloop, which I sail on 99% of the time, should be the slowest in the two tailwind conditions because...well..it's got the fewest sails. The trade-off is that it is the most nimble and has the easiest sail management. If they implemented more harsh speed penalties for poor sail management, you'd likely see the sloop keeping up with or outrunning some poorly managed larger ships in tailwind conditions.

    Weight would be a unique factor to the speed of ships...though if that was done, I'd also like to see loot and supply hoarding also impact the speed of the ship.

  • @sweetsandman Sea of thieves isn't a sailing sim. Rare can't fix hit reg and you want them to implement these changes. Good luck sir. Keep those sails true.

  • @super87ghost said in Sailing Intuitiveness and Ship Speed Balancing:

    What i like to see most by the way is that a solo sloop is a little bit quicker then a duo sloop. That 2nd person brings some extra weight, so it would make sence. Also a duo sloop has advantages over solo sloops. Making a solo sloop a little faster then a duo sloop would make it a little more equal in my view.

    Not a good idea. All you're doing is implementing a way to get a bonus by having a crew member leave so you get a boost, and then join back when you don't need it.

  • @d3adst1ck said in Sailing Intuitiveness and Ship Speed Balancing:

    @super87ghost said in Sailing Intuitiveness and Ship Speed Balancing:

    What i like to see most by the way is that a solo sloop is a little bit quicker then a duo sloop. That 2nd person brings some extra weight, so it would make sence. Also a duo sloop has advantages over solo sloops. Making a solo sloop a little faster then a duo sloop would make it a little more equal in my view.

    Not a good idea. All you're doing is implementing a way to get a bonus by having a crew member leave so you get a boost, and then join back when you don't need it.

    Also, the weight of a pirate is negligible compared to the ship.

  • I'm a fan of B.

    While A does give the sloop a buff in headwind, it's unidirectional. A buff in crosswind (head) would give the sloop more opportunities to gain or close the distance while going (mostly) "against" the wind.

    I like the thought of keeping everything neutral in total headwind.

  • @theblackbellamy I do prefer that option as well for that same reason. It will have the most significant impact on the other ships, and generally slow the game down for them as a whole as their average speeds will be most impacted. The numbers could be adjusted to reduce that, but it would either serve to make the other ships faster in their tailwind situations, or it would require the percentage gaps to be narrowed. I will play with the numbers on Proposal B a little more and try to reduce the average speed impact while providing what you said...more opportunity for the sloop to narrow narrow gaps.

  • @theblackbellamy So I created Proposal C, in which you can see less of an impact on the average speeds for the brig and galleon. It actually resulted in a decent buff to overall Tailwind speeds in order to make the crosswind (head) conditions not so slow. I think most people would be pleased by that.

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    However, the one thing I hadn't thought about was what angles each of the wind conditions is considered to be "active." Currently, most of us think 0° is the only time it's a true headwind, and 180° is the only time it's a true tailwind. I'm not sure if there's any variance to that, but it feels like there should be. What if, instead, each wind condition had it's own respective 90° of "active" state? That way, each ship would have 90° of full wind advantage and there would still be the one neutral wind condition. Here's what I mean:

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  • Love the discussion and proposals. Sloops definitely need a speed buff , and always have, something I have been advocating for 4 years, literally since the game debuted.

    Introduction of brigs made the issue more apparent, but still, public opinion didn't change much. Lately more people are coming around to the idea and I'm not exactly sure why, but still, it is unclear if Rare will ever do anything about the imbalance. The waters are too muddy to convince some people, even though the math speaks for itself.

    Just look at how much more substantial the benefit is for other ships in their ideal wind condition vs the sloop. As I pointed out in a similar thread, this means that brigs can close a gap on a sloop in crosswind (head) conditions about 5x less time than it took the sloop to create a gap in it's ideal headwind condition. This seems blatantly unfair, regardless of what your opinion is on the ship's capabilities in combat.

    Personally, I second the opinion of making the sloop the overall "fastest" ship, at least tied with Brig in top speed, but less acceleration. It should be a hit-and-run / smuggler type vessel given it's limited firepower, but right now, you can't catch a larger ship unless they want you to catch them. And that's a real problem.

    To me, speed is one of those things that should have been more complex from the start, with number of supplies, and possibly even treasure on board factoring in. Want to be fast? Carry less cannonballs and make them count!

    I'm all for the game being accessible, but differences in speed should never have been this pronounced. I'm glad people are starting to talk about this more, but I'm fearful that change will never come, even if it is just marginal rebalancing.

    Still, great post. Love the effort and proposals!

  • @sweetsandman said:

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    The effort you've put into all this is commendable & I hope the devs see it (and borrow from it).

    I like C much better. Gives us the same averages as A, with an overall buff to sloops compared to current speeds. Everyone gets a nice little buff for tailwind, while gally remains the fastest. Headwind becalms all ships the same.

    However, the one thing I hadn't thought about was what angles each of the wind conditions is considered to be "active." Currently, most of us think 0° is the only time it's a true headwind, and 180° is the only time it's a true tailwind. I'm not sure if there's any variance to that, but it feels like there should be... 90° of "active" state...
    alt text

    This is a good idea too.

    I always assumed it was 0/180°, with maybe a few degrees in either direction. Giving each condition a generous 90° (with no buffs in headwind), would make the buff from tailwind more impactful, and balance the crosswinds.

  • @calicorsaircat I feel like in addition to the introduction of the brig, the introduction of the harpoon also diminished the sloops advantages. Being able to be nimble and maintain speed while vying for position around rocks or islands was a huge advantage...but the harpoon eliminated the advantage of being nimble in anything other than wide open water.

    Now, I'm not saying to get rid of the harpoon lol that's insane. But, they failed to account for the fact that they introduced a new ship while simultaneously eliminating one of the key maneuverability advantages of the sloop.

    It's time for a rebalance.

  • Some great effort put into this, great work. Option B would be my choice. The sloop really does need a buff on speed. All ships should have a significant advantage in that ships desired wind direction only. The sloop doesn't really have this currently. I hope the dev's see this and consider a rebalance.

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