PvP v PvE. Is a split inevitable?

I can understand the mentality, I have pulled up to a ship that has just started that seemed friendly only for them them to turn and me to kill them, their argument was they just started and had nothing to lose. I said that was why they lost, as I killed him

@nwo-azcrack Well at least 95% of all crews that attack me have no booty. Sometimes a keg or some fish. This "myth" is not unfounded.

@Dadiodude Your basic assumptions are flawed already. E.g. the aggressor is not the necessarily the one who shoots first.
The one swimming with a keg towards your ship is the aggressor!
The one climbing your ladder uninvited is the aggressor!
The one jumping over board with your loot is the aggressor!
The one positioning his ship behind yours with cannons pointing at you is the aggressor!
The one chasing you across the map is the aggressor! (maybe)

To board them before they riddle your ship with cannonballs or bomb you into oblivion is a defensive maneuver.

@dadiodude said in PvP v PvE. Is a split inevitable?:

We all know that there is a widening rift between those seeking to go adventuring and those content to steal.

You begin with a false premise. No, we don't "all know" there is a "widening rift" between PvE and PvP focused players. To the contrary, I find the seas far less hostile than they've been in the past. I can't tell you how rare it's been lately to be attacked by a vessel, or even find one willing to fight.

I believe most of us who've played a while do not see a "divide" between PvE and PvP. They go together. In fact, the whole philosophy underlying the game is that it's an open world that involves both PvE and PvP. We are given the tools to play as we wish, without being constrained by artificial mechanics to inhibit or promote certain styles of play. We do have a Pirate Code to guide our behavior, but beyond that...we're on our own.

The only "split" in the player base appears here in the forums. Bear in mind those who post here represent only the tiniest fraction of the actual player base. But if there's a split here, it's between the forum regulars who've played a long time and learned the game well enough to understand it, and those who come here for the first time to go on passionate rants about how unfair it all is and how they want Rare to fundamentally change the game for them.

Again, the answer is no. There's no earthly reason to implement a penalty to punish aggressors in a game about pirates. No, no, no. In the simplest terms, there are all sorts of situations wherein such a penalty would unfairly punish a crew just for playing the game as it was intended. I'm not even talking about aggressive crews here. Even normally passive crews sometimes have good reasons to attack another vessel.

Not that any need to defend pvp players, they can defend them self.
Getting the ship ready for battle can take time, not as much really, but the supliess an Gunpowder do take time to gather.

Im passive player, an have had a "new" sloop come attack us 3 times before they realize it was pointless, since we had 500+ cannon balls an 200 planks.
cursed in of every type of cannon balls

I love Pvp, I never start it, but when someone wants the shipbattle, then I give it to them.
If im lucky an they are good, the battle takes more than 5-10min.

Yay another one for me to disect.

@dadiodude said in PvP v PvE. Is a split inevitable?:

We all know that there is a widening rift between those seeking to go adventuring and those content to steal.

Oh? I never noticed. Even if you look purely on these forums in most cases someone is yelling about PvP being a problem it gets 1 maybe 2 upvpotes and someone stating that PvP is a natural part if the game getting 10+ upvotes. I don't see this as a clear cut case of a rift.

If anything threatens the future of this and similar games it’s the inability to strike a balance that keeps most players happily engaged. I don’t think a split is necessary or desirable!

I see your mistake here already. You compare it to other games but honestly Rare has made a Unique game. How many games give you all the tools from the offset, offer the full gameplay experience and full freedom from the offset without grinding for it?
You can't compare it to other games and if you don't realise the uniqueness of this game you (obviously) don't get why the freedom to initiate PvP is needed.

So, is there a solution.

Again a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

The disparity isn’t anything to do with chests, skulls and the like. It’s the time taken to earn them. This can be several hours. On the other hand the thief invests nothing and simply sails an empty ship looking for a target.

How would you know? I kid you not, when I sail around with a galleon full of loot and take yours as well (because you probably weren't paying attention of just didn't want to) that loot is peanuts compared to what's already on board.
I see this claim come up a lot but somehow folks don't realise that pirates are oppurunists in nature.

So, how to balance.

If we assume that the aggressor in any situation is first to fire or board then the attacker can’t do so without risk.

What's risked in a game where death has no penalties, losing a ship has none either and all earned goods are cosmetic? Again I feel like you're discussing a completely different game.

He/she must pay to maintain and equip their ship and pay their crew. So to launch an attack will cost (for the sake of argument) 7500 gold. They pay this win or loose and regardless of loot on the target ship.

Again you have no Idea of how this game works. If this exampe were the case I'd just board your ship and take the wheel, sail it into an island and stand in front of the holes waiting for you to pay me 7500 for the pleasure to sink you because you can't get rid of me unless you do so. Also I could just take your chests without your consent unless you pay up to attack me.

In the interest of balance (a much used word) everyone should face a reasonably equal mix of risk and reward. I think this is where the game currently fails.

Hey! It’s just an idea. One of many I’m sure people have.

Having an Idea and posting it on a forum doesn't make it a good Idea. Please do some research before you post such blatant lies and assumptions.

I hope a split doesn't happen and I hope we find a way to make both PvP and PvE players happy with the balance.
I think we should first think about what people find frustrating

1. Being boarded and spawn killed by larger crews. Unless you are very good with a cutlass and gun having a 3 on 1 fight and visiting the ferry every few minutes as you hear your boat go down is very annoying
2. Spending 30 minutes running away from a superior crew who just won't quit. That's 30 minutes of your life you're not getting back
3. Being blown apart by cannon fire whilst the boarders on your crew jump around immune. Once you have been boarded, not only do you have to contend with being stabbed in the back as you try and fix a hole, you're also being smashed by cannon-fire which doesn't hurt the pirate stabbing you up.

So to even the playing field how about

1. Make it harder to be boarded by bringing in sensible solutions.
   -Pulling up the ladders
   -Boat Traps
   -Areas of shallow water sloops can lead Galleons into
   -More closely knit islands like shipwreck bay
2. Create some boat defences when being chased
   -Sea mines, make it easier to drop powder kegs off the side without the risk of being shot, or falling in the sea.
   -Hard to navigate passages of water threading through coral reefs
   -A Flaming crossbow, the arrow would be able to fly backwards farther than forwards, you could set fire to the chasers sails. They could do the same but as they are travelling in the same direction as the arrow the bolt wouldn't go as far.
3. turn on friendly fire

@guybrush3pwood2 said in PvP v PvE. Is a split inevitable?:

3. Being blown apart by cannon fire whilst the boarders on your crew jump around immune. Once you have been boarded, not only do you have to contend with being stabbed in the back as you try and fix a hole, you're also being smashed by cannon-fire which doesn't hurt the pirate stabbing you up.

I have to agree on this one point. I've always felt it was senseless that pirates should be immune to any cannon fire. For a very brief time, a bug was once introduced into the game that removed the immunity to friendly cannon fire. I loved it. It was so much more realistic and made naval combat more immersive. If you boarded a ship during a battle, you and your crewmates had to be very careful. I thought it was brilliant and I was quite disappointed when they fixed it. I pleaded them to let the "bug" remain, but alas...it was not to be.

@nwo-azcrack Thanks :)
It would be quite funny if a Solo Slooper pulled up their ladders and then got blown off the boat, or jumped off onto an island without first lowering them.... The pirate equivalent of locking your keys in your car.
Love the idea of a boarding axe!

@dadiodude here is a fact for you. You have 0 upvotes on your post. No-one agrees with you. @NWO-Azcrack has as of writing this post 5 upvotes. Do the math and come back with actual facts.

@Guybrush3pwood2 Honestly you've given some of the better balancing options I've seen throughout the whole forums. Besides the ladder idea(could be possible with some tweaks or another form of boarding people), each one of those suggestions just makes learning core mechanics of the game an advantage and doesn't change things to fit one side PvE or PvP more. If anything your ideas give people looking to avoid fights(PvE or passive players as the forums consider them) more opportunity to do just that if they learn basic game skills. I especially like the idea of friendly fire as it already happens with gunpowder barrels and a skilled pirate understands how to use them and the risk of messing up with one. Friendly fire just seems like it would add more balance as most crews non stop rain cannons on you while they're own people are on board trying to kill you or take loot, so that idea would for sure make people rethink how they attack and probably lead to better or longer battles. Overall dope ideas towards some form of balance.

@Hynieth i agree with some of @Dadiodude ideas. People love to blast unpopular opinions on here in big groups. Probably leads to less people wanting to comment bc they know if it is against majority they will be next. Occasionally you see some reasonable debate happen but usually its just two sides shoving their thoughts at each other instead of seeking compromise. The number of upvotes on comments doesn't really reflect much either if its the same people upvoting each other as well.

@anarchistang3l If I can shoot down an Idea that I precieve as bad then I will, the fact that the OP doesn't get upvotes for his Ideas and I get several for pointing out the flaws kind of proves to me the valitity of my claim. It's also how democracy works.
If 4 accounts with only a few or even no other posts to their name post the same thing on the forums yet have 0 upvotes for it that just tells me a few things:

• They don't read the forums nor invest time to search, thus probably will not invest any time in thinking out Ideas (thus they are easy to shoot down).
• They don't even support other people who have the same Idea.

The game isn't just the game you play. It's the game we all play, it currently is a PvPvE game and it's advertised as such. If you want the Developers to completely alter the core of the game in a way to suit your needs you'd better come with some really good arguments and Ideas that we can't shoot down.

Just take a gander at my profile and the posts in there. I go into a lot of detail and point out a lot of flaws in people's assumptions. It's part of a discussion. A Discussion isn't agreeing with eachother it's trying to show people their points of views, and the fact that both you and the OP resort to the fact that their opinions are unpopular just prove that you don't have counterpoints to our arguments.
It's even annoying to me because by ignoring the actual argument you are the cause of this discussion stranding.

@anarchistang3l Thanks :) I personally love the idea of a boarding axe in place of climbing the ladders. I think it would benefit both aggressors and defenders.
You would no longer just be able to "guard the ladders, blunderbuss in hand" to defend against people getting on your ship, they could come from any direction and sometimes if you're defending your ship and you need that moment to eat a banana, jumping in the sea is the quickest option but then getting back on board to continue your defence becomes impossible.
You'd have to be more careful of being boarded whilst in full flight too. Sometimes grabbing the ladder as a boat flies past at full mast is tricky, using an axe would have to incorporate a similar timing skill, perhaps a 1 second swing (or would it?).

@dadiodude said in PvP v PvE. Is a split inevitable?:

@hynieth said in PvP v PvE. Is a split inevitable?:

@dadiodude here is a fact for you. You have 0 upvotes on your post. No-one agrees with you. @NWO-Azcrack has as of writing this post 5 upvotes. Do the math and come back with actual facts.

[mod edited] let me guess who has upvoted who. Oh! No, it couldn’t possibly be the same old people could it 😂

[mod edited] I give you a literal way of seeing how popular something is. A 100% factual thing. On Reddit you see thses types of posts with lots of down votes but because they didn't want that negativity to stick wit the forums they disabled downposting (you can still see remnants of this). Still, upvoting is a way of showing your support and if you don't agree with the OP you should upvote the first post you do agree with. And with these posts you see a lot of that going on.

You even had 1 upvote but now you have 0 again. So someone probably read this and took away the upvote.

If you make posts like this you only prove me right so thanks I guess. I'd personally like discussions on a more mature level but I'll take what I can get.

There are many ideas as of risk vs rewards but I don't agree with paying to attack. I'm already risking my time and resources collected let alone my treasure on my ship each time my crew attacks or is attacked. My crews didn't even start a mission till we had a minimum of 250 cannon balls and 150 planks. That was our risk. Treasure means nothing since its always there.

@dadiodude Hi, To be honest, I'm pretty new here and there's not much of a clique. There are PvP players and PvE players.
I think the one thing a lot of us see eye to eye about is not wanting to restrict ones ability to attack another boat if you see fit and really not wanting to have separate servers.
I think some other mechanics/island designs could be introduced to help people escape aggressive crews but I wouldn't want to see something introduced that would restrict someone from being aggressive if they want to be.
Yeah, I think something should be done to help the people who want to play against the environment escape attack, but I don't think whatever is done should be a restriction on the attackers. (hence my post above)
I think some of the regulars here do get a little riled whenever they see something with "separate servers, safe zones, PvE only, stop the griefers", or similar in the title due to there being soooo many posts on the subject.
Having said that, the volume of these posts do suggest something should be done. I do agree with you "I don’t think a split is necessary or desirable!" but I don't think charging attackers is the correct solution. For the reason @Crimsonraziel made, labelling someone as an attacker just because they fire first isn't correct. There are soo many more variables to consider that it would make the idea of charging an aggressor impossible to implement.

@dadiodude That's the wrong perspective, its NOT 3 hours wasted. You enjoyed those 3 hours, prior to losing the (not yours) loot.

If you are only about the loot you really are not getting it. Its ALL about the experience(s)

@dadiodude perhaps they could award a % of recognition for finding the chest and a % when you turn it in.
At least then if you do loose all your chests you still keep that bit of recognition for finding them.
Yeah you'd still loose the gold but you'd retain your work towards PL.
Yep, agree, no initial suggestion is the polished article from the word "go"

@dadiodude Please, please heed this warning. I will tell you now, DO NOT BE IN A RUSH TO PL. please it is the quickest way to turn yourself off the Game. I myself have noticed a drastic drop in time spent playing since getting to PL.

I can see you love the game, I used to have the view you have now, it was all about the loot and rep otherwise whats the point. I remember my first post on the forum was to discuss safe harbours, I was/ still am a solo slooper, have the whole game it has been HARD.
but i wouldn't have it any other way