@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:
@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:
Yet PvEvP is fun because of the variety it offers and the interactions between the PVE and the PVP people. Yet if you make a mode that removes the PVE people, you are left with the PVP people only, making the PvEvP world less fun.
But it would follow that the PvE world is less fun than the PvEvP world, so you wouldn't lose all the people. Unless the point is that the PvP isn't actually fun for everyone, unless its just horrible grind for some people. If that's true, something needs to be done.
You can switch and choose, if you have a PVE world and a PVP world... the PvEvP world is no more. You lose the balance of the world, you make the shared world into two separate ones out of which you choose at the menu screen.
If the treasure didn't matter to people, it wouldn't be that big of a deal if after 4 or 5 hours it would have been stolen. 4/5 hours of fun for 15 mins resulting in a loss of treasure wouldn't matter? Yet people do place value on that.
That doesn't necessarily follow. The question is if people would still get annoyed if the chests were empty. The chests represent a culmination of a period of play, treasure and rep bump or no. To conclude that people get annoyed by not having that culmination only because of the treasure attached doesn't necessarily follow.
The chests are empty... the chests add nothing other than gold value to your purse, you are the one that makes the argument it is only about the fun, not the treasure and yet you and many others have been moaning about the loss of that treasure.
Yet that was what we were discussing. I already stated multiple times that if a PVE mode is offered it should not have the same activities and rewards. You want to fish, do tall tales, do voyages in the PVE mode... That are the same activities and rewards. I have not once stated in this entire conversation that a PVE mode is impossible to do.
This is the point. Its not what I was discussing. I made one, counter factual statement about a PvE server, and then you've locked onto that like a dog with a bone.
You state it is a counter argument? The whole premise of the discussion is not whether a PvE mode would work, but also which conditions need to apply to it. I state clear restrictions for it to function without causing issues with the current mode, you are the one fighting me on those conditions.
So, are you stating that you agree with my point that a PVE mode is only truly viable if it doesn't?
No, if I was saying that I would say that a PvE server would be worse than nothing. I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it would be better than nothing. That's not the same as it being a great idea. I think, as I've always thought, that an extended version of Maiden Voyage closer to something with the interest and depth of at least Arena but with more non-violent and teaching PvP elements would be the premium option, but that if that option were totally and irrefutably off the table I still think that a flat PvE server would be better than literally nothing. Better than nothing is not the same as good.
My point is that we can bicker all day over whether or not the option that I don't think is a good idea is a terrible idea or just a bad one, but I don't think that's a profitable use of time.
If It is a bad idea or a terrible idea... why are you arguing in favor of it? Shouldn't the developers add good ideas or great ideas and not implement bad ones that hurt their brand?
Well, the moments they do play the PVE they are offering it and they have no way to not offer it. If they just were at an outpost they were offering it before, but sold it before engaging in combat.
But the point is that such a player never needs to engage in PvE, and during the tiny amount of time that they go from killing a player who mined up their gold through PvE to selling said gold they're not even offering up their loot they're offering up the other player's gold anyway, on top of that, the odds of encountering one player at a time is low enough, the odds of encountering two such that PvP loot is realistically being put at risk is tiny.
If the odds of encountering these people is so low, what is the big deal?
If they are offering loot, it is their loot and how they acquired it is really not much of an issue.
You are stating that treasure is not the goal though, time is not to be converted to treasure but to fun. So if people think that is fun, shouldn't they have that option? When they pick your treasure up, they all of a sudden do offer treasure for those that attack them?
Sure, and if people don't think its fun shouldn't they equally have the option to opt out? And yes, they offer treasure to people that attack them. My treasure.
Nobody likes to lose, so should everyone become a god and be handed the rewards for free? It is a game, losing isn't fun but it is part of a game. Should people be able to opt out of losing, no... they shouldn't. Play the game, be a good sport in victory and loss.
You cannot prevent people from selling before attacking or coming into the server and finding someone before they got anything themselves.
Very true. And if people gaining without risk is a problem, then that's a problem. The current game has people gaining something without risking anything, that exchange is exactly what the PvE crowd are so annoyed about. They feel as though they're taking all the risk while the PvP crowd are taking no risk and getting all the reward, that's exactly what has the hardcore PvEers so annoyed.
People are never without risk, engaging in PvP can end up in a loss or win scenario for either end. Regardless of whether you bring treasure or not, you are risking your time, effort and fun. Once again you are purely reflecting upon the hardcore PVE and hardcore PVP people, while the major concern is the PvEvP majority people, which engage in both aspects of the game.
They risk their treasure and do PVE as well as PVP. They will not always have loot on board and they won't always be without it. Catch them at the right time and you profit, else you end up with empty hands... if you win the battle. The question is at what time do you find them, when they are out being a PVE crew or when they are out being a PVP one?
No, because there is a risk to PVP. Your time is not guaranteed to provide you any treasure. People complain all the time they are sunk without treasure, meaning no treasure is gained by the PVP.
That's not really much of a risk though is it? Sometimes I sink people and they're not carrying as much loot as I thought? The idea that a mugger is running a big risk because occasionally the person that they hold up turns out to be a hobo seems a stretch.
You keep coming back to but PVP people and but PVE people... which in turn establishes my argument even more. You keep coming back to these terms, because even the PvEvP people that you encounter you are placing in one of the boxes based on their current activity. Are they out doing PVE enjoyment or PVP enjoyment. The balance in risk is the fact that PvEvP people are both, it just matters which session and at what time you come across them.
Provide these people a choice at the menu and that is exactly what they will be making. The choice that they usually make out on the seas, they will now make in the menu screen.
PVE always rewards you with treasure, it is a secure way to get gold value for your time. Also, the concern is not the PVE players and the PVP players enjoying the separation, it is about the larger group PVEVP. Which we already indicated in the post you decided to ignore.
No, I don't ignore them, I think that they're PvEvP players, so they would play PvEvP mode. The issue seems to be that you think they're basically PvE players who are being forced to play PvEvP so would immediately desert the PvEvP mode. I don't think that.
You are a PvEvP player according to yourself, you yourself have indicated that based on the activity you want to do you would turn off PVP. Also, please read clearly the following:
They are NOT deserting the PVEVP mode completely, they are deciding to do PVE activity in the dedicated mode for it, they have no reason to do that in the PVEVP mode and so will only enter that for their PVP needs...
They will still play on the PvEvP mode, but they will not do so when they are out and about providing the spoils, the loot, the joy of thievery. Instead of them risking that like the people they want risking their things when they are out hunting...
How do you know... what is their motivation to still play in the PVEVP world when doing PVE? That is my question to you. You claim it wouldn't be a big deal because they would still play, while I have arguments that you agree with that show that they wouldn't. Why would they risk loss if they have the choice not to lose? Nobody likes losing, that is just the case and yet it is extremely important in a multiplayer game.
How do I know? Because they keep saying. There are masses of posts in this thread alone from people saying that the PvP of PvEvP adds loads of spice, that losing sometimes is what makes the winning so sweet, that the tales they build are so much better because of the losses they sustain. I assume they're telling the truth and wouldn't desert PvEvP mode whatever was offered.
I am one of the people that says that PVP adds spice to the game, it makes the game better! Yet a meal needs balance! If you just throw in more spice but remove the rest... it is going to burn.
Once again, people won't make a binary choice, they would make a menu choice... how many times do I have to specify this. You act like it is ONE or the OTHER... THEY WILL PLAY BOTH, PVE on the PVE server PVP on the PvEvP one... because there is no reason to PVE on the PvEvP one! There is motivation to do PVP there, because there is no PVP in the PVE one.
Lots of people here are saying that the PvEvP is more fun, and I think people play because its fun, so I think those people would keep playing PvEvP even if PvE were offered. It seems a pretty simple through line of thought. Which of those steps do you draw issue with?
What is the motivation to still play the PVE in the PVP enabled world?
Fun and excitement.
What fun and excitement? The PVE fun and excitement comes from the PVE... so that means they will go do the PVP in the PVP enabled world for that excitement, why would they do the PVE there? It isn't like they cannot swap back and forth.
Why would they not pick and choose just like you will, do I want PVE fun or PVP fun today?
Because sometimes they will pick that they want PvEvP fun today. Most of the time. Because they bought a PvEvP game.
You are making the argument why a PVE server is not needed. You bought a PvEvP game... not a PVE game, if you want that play a different game. No game can be everything... that is how games fail.
Name me one example of a game that allows you to swap between both worlds and succeeds. Where the PvEvP element is still alive and kicking in those worlds?
You enjoy PVEVP right?
Yep.
Are you sure? Because frankly you sound like you want bad things to be implemented into the game to split up the servers into a PVE or PVP one.
You will still sometimes go into the PVEVP world right, but won't engage in those activities like Tall Tales and fishing? So, what value would they add to the world? It makes the PVEVP world less fun, because the fun activities are no longer done within that world?
No, obviously sometimes I'll still engage in them. I tend to fish off the front of the boat on the way to an island, I'll still do that, why wouldn't I? Sure, I wouldn't go into the PvEvP server when I wanted to do nothing but fish, but I don't go into it now when I want to do nothing but fish because currently when I feel like chilling out and doing something like that I play a different game. For me this is not about if I'm going to split the time that I spend in Sea of Thieves, its about whether I'm going to spend the time that I don't spend in Sea of Thieves in Sea of Thieves. Sure I'd still play Tall Tales in the main game, because I don't do just a Tall Tale or a standard voyage, I pick Tall Tales and voyages that overlap on a loop so that I can do both. It makes voyages easier and means that I have a fall back for a worthwhile session because even if I get my loot stolen I can still have banked hitting a Tall Tale checkpoint. Why wouldn't I still do double duty? Rather, in the PvE server I'd stop to actually hunt out all those journals that I haven't gotten around to, which is something I don't do in the PvEvP server anyway because the PvEvP server engenders a sense of urgency. The PvE server version would be different and allow engagement with different parts of the game, it wouldn't replace the other server, simply extend its appeal.
Yet don't you see that for many people that is exactly what it will do? Split up their time on the seas? Not everyone had 12 hours of play time, they spend their play time on the seas giving them the options means they will divide the time they would otherwise spend on the shared seas in the PvE world.
The PvEvP world balance is created by having people do both activities in the world. They have to enter that world to fulfill both types of fun, which means they sometimes are the PvE crew and sometimes the PvP crew. Both the attacker and the defender...
Sure, but again, if someone doesn't feel like engaging in the PvE part of the game, they're totally free to go pure PvP. If you play PvE, you're playing PvEvP, sometimes the defender, sometimes the attacker, but if you play pure PvP, which is an option, you're just attacker. To some PvE inclined players who put up with the PvP parts of the experience that just feels uneven, and over time it builds into a sense of unfairness, and then they complain and eventually drift off. Which seems like a pity. The game lets you opt out from PvE, but not from PvP. People are just asking for that to be equal.
You cannot opt out of PVE, I explained this before. The PVE doesn't give a damn about whether you are a PVP crew or not, it will engage with you. A kraken will attack you, a megalodon will appear, a skeleton ship will arise from the depths.
A player can also opt not to engage in the PVP battle, you can flee, you can hide, you can scuttle...
Also the PvE mode will not and shall never be used purely by some of the PVE inclined people, there is a huge group of people that will avoid loss at any cost. Those that will opt out because it is simply the easy thing to do. There is no motivation to do the PVE in the PVP enabled world, nada. You say fun and excitement... in other words: Internal motivation of the player. The one motivational aspect that has no merit.
People take the most direct, easiest route to victory if you hand it to them. If there is no reason not to take that route, the majority of people won't do it. The people will still play on the shared world, for their PVP needs not their PVE ones. There is no reason to... a balanced world is fun and is what makes the PVP the spice and not the entire meal.