[Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion

  • @scarecrow1771 In relation to Outpost camping experiences, the issue is that any one person's experience of the game, even over 500+ hours is anecdotal. You've not seen much Outpost camping? I've only got about 100 hours in the game, but I both have seen and experienced detrimental Outpost camping and also never seen a player fired cannonball hit a moving player controlled ship. Should I conclude that a cannonball hitting a moving ship doesn't actually happen? You've heard multiple people talk about Outpost camping, even if you've not experienced it and that outweighs your personal anecdotal experience of not having come across it.

    Personal example, on the Trapmaker's tall tale I picked up the gunpowder key keg, loaded it onto my ship, and picked up a chest that was just lying on the beach, I think it was a Seafarer from memory. The island that the gunpowder key had to be used at was on the far side of an Outpost so what the hell, might as well drop the Seafarer's chest off on the way. Running the chest in on the island and I get shot and killed. Re-spawn on the ship to see the deck on fire, or at least, see it for the couple of seconds that's possible before getting spawn camp killed. So the person has come aboard my ship, seen that it has nothing on it, seen that the one chest that I was carrying was all the loot aboard, seen that I was on a Tall Tale and decided to burn the ship down anyway. Fine. Respawn on a new ship, on the far side of the Outpost from the Trapmaker spawn island. So I know that the Trapmaker key is floating just where I got killed, since the person who killed me can't interact with it since they're not on that Tall Tale. Takes me about ten minutes to get there, plenty of time for them to have finished up what they're doing and move on. I circle the island this time to make sure there are no ships and its clean, I come around and spot the Trapmaker's key, go over to the harpoon and, what the hell, I get shot. I look up, and sure enough, stood on the jetty, same guy, bouncing back and forth jumping. Just enough time to realize that he's camping off a Rowboat before I find myself on the Ferry of the Damned. Wake up, ship on fire, spawn camped, re-spawn on a new island, again, on the far side of the Outpost. Tall Tale is still running, so the Trapmaker's chest hasn't sunk. I also know that there's only one place I can go to carry on with the Tall Tale right now. I either server hop or re-set the tale, meaning that I have to go back to doing the three previous puzzles again, or I go back to the island, tooled up and prepared and try to get the Trapmaker's chest. I decide to go back until the chest sinks, I win, or the game re-spawns me closer to the island I need to dig up the chest from. I get back to the Outpost, tooled up and aware that he's there this time. I find him, and I actually kill him. Then someone else shot me in the back.

    I'm not sure how many hours in I was at that point, I'd guess 80 or so. I'm willing to accept that you haven't experienced Outpost camping, but don't tell me it doesn't happen. The point is though, and the point I've made about a few things, is that the psychological effect of that experience remains far in excess of its presence in the game. I might never experience that again in all the rest of my time in SoT, but having come across it once has made a big impact and its not about my lacking the emotional maturity, its a pretty natural psychological reaction to associate an experience with both its ending and its most extreme unpleasant moments. In SoT the two are very often the same thing, which isn't great design and telling people to just toughen up isn't the best way of dealing with that problem.

  • @combatxkitty Now, I don't think its entirely fair to say that everyone is 'demanding a PvE option' and expecting a game to 'cater to their wants'. Firstly, I think that people are trying to feel out ways in which the game could appeal to a wider player base and be as satisfying for all players. I've heard a few people complain that Rare have bent to 'Player demands' and done X or Y, the thing is that Rare know the actual statistics and levels of complaint one way or another. They know far better than anyone on these boards what the actual player base actually wants, the rest of us are just guessing based on personal peccadillos or at best a relatively limited sampling. There is a level of interest in alterations or additions that will and should result in a reaction from Rare, whether that level is 100% or 1% is a matter of debate, and what the reaction should be is also, but I don't think its up for debate that the debate is worthwhile. I think that there are plenty of people here that have been open minded and respectful at every point and aren't just making demands that their wants be catered to. I also think that people realise full well what Rare's target demographics were, but that what might not be accepted is that target demographics are capable of shifting over time that Rare are capable of knowing when its good sense to adapt to a shifting demographic if it does, in fact, turn up.

  • I don’t like the Witcher because it doesn’t have Multiplayer/co-op.

    I don’t go to the Witcher Forums asking/demanding for Multiplayer Co-Op to be added.

    I just don’t play the Witcher

    It’s not for “me”.

  • @scarecrow1771 To be fair I think that people assume they're average because, well, without any evidence to the contrary that's a pretty reasonable thing to assume. Its a sort of Dunning Kruger effect where as you gain the experience to know that you weren't average before, you've also gained sufficient experience to lead you to believe that you are at least average now.

    Not everything is purely cosmetic, as you advance in levels you unlock more interesting and challenging journeys and emissary flags. That's not cosmetic, a player can't open a gold vault or go on a ghost ship battle journey on their first session, nor can they start posting emissary value to the tiers. You also can't access later Tall Tales until previous ones are completed. Those are real things, parts of the fun of the game that are locked off until advancement is achieved, which is not purely cosmetic.

    Even then, are you saying that you're pro, or at least ambivalent towards the idea of removing all reputation advancement or loot accumulation in the whole game? If we're talking about points of view that would kill the game, I'm going to say that would put a lot of people off.

    I know my words, I'm not saying that I didn't say that, I'm saying that I think that I've been respectful and reasonable during this debate and that slightly eye-rolling comments like "all this talk" and slightly patronizing ones like "I've covered this for you before" are a little below the standard of response that I think is conducive to reasonable debate. If there's one thing the last page or so of this thread has shown its that we don't need that sort of thing to become an issue.

    There have been games that have suffered from such additions, there have been games that have benefited from them. There are incredibly hardcore games that have driven players off due to their hardcore nature and those that have pulled people in. There is no absolute rule as to what will or won't work on the market place, so can we stop "all this talk" of knowing that this addition would kill the game or that this one wouldn't. I don't know which addition would or wouldn't kill the game, and nor do you. We can talk sensibly about what things we think would usefully improve the playing experience for all playstyles, but debating over market share and demographic shift really isn't getting this anywhere.

    On softening the learning curve. There are people, it seems to me a reasonable amount of people, who are saying that they, currently and in the environment that the game is now being sold in and advertised in and with the current player pool make-up, find the learning curve quite sharp. With all due respect, you've been playing it for 500+ hours, the player pool and set of events that are presented to a new player now, and the manner in which they're presented with and sold the game are, I'm thinking, very different from the way it was when you were actually learning and mastering the game. Its possible that those new players have experiences that are factually as well as experientially different from yours and that things should shift based on those changes.

    That long term players are now unengaged and bored is not a reason to lengthen the run-in time for new players at all. Why should the fact that a veteran player is bored change the fact that it might be a good idea to give a new player a cannon shooting lesson before dropping them into the open ocean? Its a reason to add on more challenging top end events, but it has nothing to do with softening the learning curve for new players.

    Once again I return to the previous suggestion that a sort of non-contact PvPvE arena version would be an excellent addition. Somewhere where people can compete to find chests on an island as a time trial against other players, which would train people to be able to move quickly enough to reduce losses in the main game without suffering the pain of endowed loss while even adding a new sort of challenge for longer term players. Somewhere that people can engage in sailing races around deadly reefs to pick up the skills of trimming sails and judging the vectors of other ships. As a side area, with its own set of separate achievements. I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting a strong sense that this would be a bad idea.

  • @glannigan

    I'm slogging through Half Life Alyx and would love a Co-Op mode so I can share the experience with my VR toting buddy. I think it would increase the playerbase for them too but guess what.. I'm wouldn't dream of going onto the Valve forums and demand they change their game to suit me because you do not do that sort of thing unless you have an entitled child mentality.

    They designed a game to THEIR vision. It's THEIR game not ours, we just choose to play it or not. To add a PVE server the is a mirror of adventure minus PVP would involve creating a new game almost from the ground up as has already been discussed to death on these forums. I see no harm in a PVE Tall Tale server just for gold and rep in a new faction like Arena.

    Like I said, some folk are just not cut out for life on the seas and should just come to terms with that and accept it or evolve and embrace it, it's a very simple choice..

    They make concessions to try to cater for these people with almost every release but it is never enough is it?

  • @gtothefo

    Guess my question was to difficult to answer. You can give me no answer to a very simple query that showcases why PvE versions of the Adventure mode have no place in it. This is the typical behavior of those that engage with me on the topic, the PvE Adventure mode supporters... the one line of questioning that never receives an answer.

    For those that missed it:

    • Why would people take part in the PvE in a PvP enabled world where they risk their progress to be stolen or simply interrupted if they would be given the option to turn off that threat by a menu choice?
    • Why should people that do not offer their own treasure, progress, commendations and rewards be able to set out to steal those exact same treasure throve from others?

    You can complain about the activities of others like Outpost camping (which rarely occurs and when it happens, they most likely spotted you recently and made their way over there). There are also some huge tells to whether pirates are on an island. People act like there is no counter play to the hostile activities of others, while it is an equal opportunity chance. This is a multiplayer, shared open world, PvEvP game and the idea behind it is quite simple.

    The fact that people want to focus on the negative part of the experience is natural, but also flawed to base a game design around. In games you lose, loss is usually parred with a negative emotion and yet it is a crucial part of games. If that is the end result than that is because you decided to stop playing, their is no true end to the game (open world). Therefore you can actually tell people, remember the good times you had before that point? Become better to avoid that type of situation from happening again, the game has the tools to do just that.

    Just because you lose in a game does not mean that the mechanics and design are flawed. If people cannot look further than that, cannot appreciate the game as a whole and focus purely on the negative aspects. Why should we adjust the game for them instead of sticking true to their core demographic that are the beating heart of the community?

    As a reminder, a PvE server is not undoable... how it is implemented and what it offers is the crucial aspect. The tall tales, the world events, the voyages and even fishing are part of the Adventure mode and should never be offered in a new mode.

    @xWAKIMx stop acting like solo sloopers are some fragile only out for PvE players. Solo is the most difficult crew size in the game, it is still viable, it can still be done in safety and it can even devastate people in PvP. Mistakes are punished hard, but your notion that you do not stand a chance is simply false.

    You can ask me how I would know, well... I have done nearly every single PvE threat including world events as a solo, I have grinded my way to Athena 10 for the far majority solo and never lost an Athena's Chest and now a days when I am solo I am mainly out for combat or doing world events. Practice, accepting loss, knowledge, experience and stubborn seadog grit. If you cannot handle the solo captain life in a crew based game... get a crew. Do not underestimate what a pirate can do, even a solo.

  • @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @gtothefo

    Guess my question was to difficult to answer. You can give me no answer to a very simple query that showcases why PvE versions of the Adventure mode have no place in it. This is the typical behavior of those that engage with me on the topic, the PvE Adventure mode supporters... the one line of questioning that never receives an answer.

    No, I just got tired of answering when you didn't seem willing or capable of hearing me. I'll try again, I don't expect you to listen.

    For those that missed it:

    • Why would people take part in the PvE in a PvP enabled world where they risk their progress to be stolen or simply interrupted if they would be given the option to turn off that threat by a menu choice?

    Because PvEvP is, or is meant to be, more fun than PvE. People are playing the game for fun, not progress. If PvEvP is, in fact, not more fun than PvE, then that suggests the necessity for other improvements.

    • Why should people that do not offer their own treasure, progress, commendations and rewards be able to set out to steal those exact same treasure throve from others?

    Absolutely. It should not be possible for someone with no treasure aboard to attack someone with treasure aboard, you're quite right.

    Not sure how you think players on a PvE server would be stealing something from others.

  • @gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @gtothefo

    Guess my question was to difficult to answer. You can give me no answer to a very simple query that showcases why PvE versions of the Adventure mode have no place in it. This is the typical behavior of those that engage with me on the topic, the PvE Adventure mode supporters... the one line of questioning that never receives an answer.

    No, I just got tired of answering when you didn't seem willing or capable of hearing me. I'll try again, I don't expect you to listen.

    Yet you never answered that query to begin with. You even didn't know what question it was...

    For those that missed it:

    • Why would people take part in the PvE in a PvP enabled world where they risk their progress to be stolen or simply interrupted if they would be given the option to turn off that threat by a menu choice?

    Because PvEvP is, or is meant to be, more fun than PvE. People are playing the game for fun, not progress. If PvEvP is, in fact, not more fun than PvE, then that suggests the necessity for other improvements.

    People avoid risk though, people avoid losing in games... give them an option not to lose to the biggest threat on the seas... why would they choose to do so? The answer is quite obvious... because they want to achieve their goals and take the easiest quickest route to achieve it (as is human nature).

    The PVE that is offered in a PvEvP game will not be more fun or less fun than when it is offered in a different mode. Therefore if your goal is to do the PvE why would you risk PvP? That is why a PVE mode cannot be offering the same rewards and PvE activities?

    • Why should people that do not offer their own treasure, progress, commendations and rewards be able to set out to steal those exact same treasure throve from others?

    Absolutely. It should not be possible for someone with no treasure aboard to attack someone with treasure aboard, you're quite right.

    Why shouldn't they be able to do that? I don't get that reasoning.

    Not sure how you think players on a PvE server would be stealing something from others.

    Because they would join the PvEvP world to go steal it, when they want to go PvP? While they never risk their own treasure because they want to avoid losing because they do that in the PvE world? It isn't like they are bound to one or the other, they can switch it out based on their intensions? Who will be doing the PVE in the PvEvP world?

    It really is not a hard concept to get. Why would you do a tall tale in the PvP enabled world if you can do it in the PvE world? Because it is more fun to be interrupted, have your plans adjusted, risk your progress for no reason? Are you telling me you would do Tall Tales in a PVP world if given the choice, because your stories indicate you wouldn't...

  • @wagstr Sure, but if the makers of Half Life posted a Thread to discuss the possibility of there being a Co-op mode, you'd mention that you thought it was a good idea on that thread, right? Because at that point you're stubbornly refusing to enter into open debate rather than not acting like an entitled child.

  • @gtothefo

    Rare have never mentioned PVE servers except to say they have no intention of introducing them.

    You are surely not suggesting that the creators of SoT posted this thread to discuss the possibility of a PvE copy of adventure mode are you? This is a discussion on playstyles.

    I PvEvP and as a rule I never engage unless I am attacked first which is generally a 50/50 thing and depends how you introduce yourself. Introduction of a PvE mode would ruin that, therefore it would ruin the game for me and hundreds of thousands of Pirates like me. The balance would be akilter..

    I do not mind being attacked and sunk and learn from it, you cannot lose in this game. Sure you might lose some loot but the fun is not there anyway, it's plentiful and more will come, it's all about the adventure.

    And anybody who gets constantly camped at outposts needs to seriously wake up. I was camped probably twice during my first month playing and never have been since in hundreds of hours playing.. Wonder why?

  • @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    Because PvEvP is, or is meant to be, more fun than PvE. People are playing the game for fun, not progress. If PvEvP is, in fact, not more fun than PvE, then that suggests the necessity for other improvements.

    People avoid risk though, people avoid losing in games... give them an option not to lose to the biggest threat on the seas... why would they choose to do so? The answer is quite obvious... because they want to achieve their goals and take the easiest quickest route to achieve it (as is human nature).

    If your main goal is not to lose things to other players there's a really easy way to avoid that, which is to not turn the game on. Again (and again) the goal of playing a game is not to transform time into loot, its to transform time into fun, however you define that fun, yes people will take the quickest and easiest route to achieve that. So if PvE is less fun than PvEvP people won't play it, and if PvEvP is less fun than PvE then whether there's a PvE version or not, the PvEvP version still needs to be made better.

    The PVE that is offered in a PvEvP game will not be more fun or less fun than when it is offered in a different mode. Therefore if your goal is to do the PvE why would you risk PvP? That is why a PVE mode cannot be offering the same rewards and PvE activities?

    Because the risk of PvEvP is, apparently, part of the fun engine of the game. People repeatedly state that the game is more fun because of it. So a version of the game without that risk should be less fun and so less popular.

    But even then, you're hanging on the idea that the big idea here is for a PvE mode offering the same rewards as PvEvP activities. Despite your previous hang up on a counter factual statement, I am not, and have never, suggested that as the ideal or premium response to the issue at hand. I think it would be better than nothing, but that's a pretty low bar.

    • Why should people that do not offer their own treasure, progress, commendations and rewards be able to set out to steal those exact same treasure throve from others?

    Absolutely. It should not be possible for someone with no treasure aboard to attack someone with treasure aboard, you're quite right.

    Why shouldn't they be able to do that? I don't get that reasoning.

    Because if you're not carrying treasure when you attack someone, you're not offering your own treasure when you set out to steal it from someone else. Which you said shouldn't happen. If someone never digs up anything themselves and just sails about attacking other people and then selling off the loot, they never risk anything themselves but steal it from others, which I took your statement to be dead against.

    Because they would join the PvEvP world to go steal it, when they want to go PvP? While they never risk their own treasure because they want to avoid losing because they do that in the PvE world?

    But a PvP player need never play PvE and never risk their own treasure ever anyway. Only PvE of PvEvP players are taking the risk you're talking about. A world that allowed a PvE player to take the same lack of risk as a PvP player would just be evening the scales wouldn't it?

    It really is not a hard concept to get. Why would you do a tall tale in the PvP enabled world if you can do it in the PvE world? Because it is more fun to be interrupted, have your plans adjusted, risk your progress for no reason? Are you telling me you would do Tall Tales in a PVP world if given the choice, because your stories indicate you wouldn't...

    Yes, I don't think that the PvEvP world is always more fun than a PvE world, which is why I'm in favor of a PvE world of some kind. That's sort of my point. But this thread is full of examples of people who state quite clearly that the game is better and more fun by virtue of that risk and that adjustment to their plans. Those people presumably still would, and there seem to be plenty of them so it shouldn't be an issue.

  • Hello, I hear what you are saying. I very rarely initiate pvp myself, I'm just not that sort of pirate. But the constant threat of pvp is what keeps the game exciting, for me anyway.

    there is enough solo content without PVP. when I am attacked I protect my boat and my treasures, either I sink the enemy boat or I run away and return the loot as quickly as possible.

    pvp is an integral part of the game, sometimes you meet nice pirates and sometimes not and you fight.

    For those who ask for private servers, why not, but it seems fair to me, that people who play on private servers will not be able to gain reputation and gold, and will just be able to do the fables and some quests.

    There is no merit in earning reputation and gold on private servers.

    concerning pvp and pve, it's better that the game stays as it is. When you want to play pvp you go to the arena or fight and when you want to play pve you do quests, fables, you run away and avoid the other players.

    I never get bothered by PVP players because I respond aggressively by attacking them or jumping to get into their boat. If I lose it's the game.

    I think we need to stop debating PVP and PVE, and instead find interesting ideas for the game and new content.

  • @wagstr In the OP of this thread Rare state:

    "...including posts regarding whether or not the team should consider PvE only or PvP only servers."

    I take it that therefore part of what this thread is for is to discuss whether or not the team should consider PvE only or PvP only servers. I'm honestly not clear on why people keep saying that this thread is not, in part, for discussions about considering a PvE server.

    I just don't get why a mode where someone can sign on and engage in a half hour solo sloop reef race as their game for the evening would rip the balance of the world asunder. I don't mind the risk of other players in the game, I get that its part of what makes the main balance of the main game work. But I also think that it means that sometimes I set Sea of Thieves aside because it also makes it unwieldy for certain play sessions. I also realize that the time between setting aside sessions will eventually get longer and longer until I stop playing, and I think that something that would allow me to touch base with the game and remember how fun it is during those times would be a good idea to avoid that. I also understand that its only because I have a slightly masochistic and bloody minded frame of mind that I bull necked through those first experiences of being camped and assaulted. I don't think that the game is better for that gateway being so harsh and I think that something to allow some more non-fatal PvP interaction and some learning of some of the trickier bits of the game to assist with that would be a good idea. Again, I'm still not clear on why that would be a bad thing for the game.

    I don't hold to the idea that the game can't be improved and bettered based on player feedback. I don't think that offering that feedback needs to be whining or demanding. I don't understand the idea that zipping it when you don't like something could possibly result in the game being bettered and I don't think that the game is flawlessly perfect. I'm not sending Rare all caps streams of invective. I'm saying, hey, this thing seems to bug people, does anyone think that there are interesting ways of tweaking and smoothing it off to so that it doesn't? Why not have that conversation?

  • @gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    Because PvEvP is, or is meant to be, more fun than PvE. People are playing the game for fun, not progress. If PvEvP is, in fact, not more fun than PvE, then that suggests the necessity for other improvements.

    People avoid risk though, people avoid losing in games... give them an option not to lose to the biggest threat on the seas... why would they choose to do so? The answer is quite obvious... because they want to achieve their goals and take the easiest quickest route to achieve it (as is human nature).

    If your main goal is not to lose things to other players there's a really easy way to avoid that, which is to not turn the game on. Again (and again) the goal of playing a game is not to transform time into loot, its to transform time into fun, however you define that fun, yes people will take the quickest and easiest route to achieve that. So if PvE is less fun than PvEvP people won't play it, and if PvEvP is less fun than PvE then whether there's a PvE version or not, the PvEvP version still needs to be made better.

    Yet PvEvP is fun because of the variety it offers and the interactions between the PVE and the PVP people. Yet if you make a mode that removes the PVE people, you are left with the PVP people only, making the PvEvP world less fun.

    If the treasure didn't matter to people, it wouldn't be that big of a deal if after 4 or 5 hours it would have been stolen. 4/5 hours of fun for 15 mins resulting in a loss of treasure wouldn't matter? Yet people do place value on that.

    If the goal of Rare is to make the most fun version of the game, why would they activity make the Adventure mode less fun?

    The PVE that is offered in a PvEvP game will not be more fun or less fun than when it is offered in a different mode. Therefore if your goal is to do the PvE why would you risk PvP? That is why a PVE mode cannot be offering the same rewards and PvE activities?

    Because the risk of PvEvP is, apparently, part of the fun engine of the game. People repeatedly state that the game is more fun because of it. So a version of the game without that risk should be less fun and so less popular.

    But even then, you're hanging on the idea that the big idea here is for a PvE mode offering the same rewards as PvEvP activities. Despite your previous hang up on a counter factual statement, I am not, and have never, suggested that as the ideal or premium response to the issue at hand. I think it would be better than nothing, but that's a pretty low bar.

    Yet that was what we were discussing. I already stated multiple times that if a PVE mode is offered it should not have the same activities and rewards. You want to fish, do tall tales, do voyages in the PVE mode... That are the same activities and rewards. I have not once stated in this entire conversation that a PVE mode is impossible to do.

    So, are you stating that you agree with my point that a PVE mode is only truly viable if it doesn't?

    • Why should people that do not offer their own treasure, progress, commendations and rewards be able to set out to steal those exact same treasure throve from others?

    Absolutely. It should not be possible for someone with no treasure aboard to attack someone with treasure aboard, you're quite right.

    Why shouldn't they be able to do that? I don't get that reasoning.

    Because if you're not carrying treasure when you attack someone, you're not offering your own treasure when you set out to steal it from someone else. Which you said shouldn't happen. If someone never digs up anything themselves and just sails about attacking other people and then selling off the loot, they never risk anything themselves but steal it from others, which I took your statement to be dead against.

    Well, the moments they do play the PVE they are offering it and they have no way to not offer it. If they just were at an outpost they were offering it before, but sold it before engaging in combat.

    You are stating that treasure is not the goal though, time is not to be converted to treasure but to fun. So if people think that is fun, shouldn't they have that option? When they pick your treasure up, they all of a sudden do offer treasure for those that attack them?

    You cannot prevent people from selling before attacking or coming into the server and finding someone before they got anything themselves.

    Because they would join the PvEvP world to go steal it, when they want to go PvP? While they never risk their own treasure because they want to avoid losing because they do that in the PvE world?

    But a PvP player need never play PvE and never risk their own treasure ever anyway. Only PvE of PvEvP players are taking the risk you're talking about. A world that allowed a PvE player to take the same lack of risk as a PvP player would just be evening the scales wouldn't it?

    No, because there is a risk to PVP. Your time is not guaranteed to provide you any treasure. People complain all the time they are sunk without treasure, meaning no treasure is gained by the PVP.

    PVE always rewards you with treasure, it is a secure way to get gold value for your time. Also, the concern is not the PVE players and the PVP players enjoying the separation, it is about the larger group PVEVP. Which we already indicated in the post you decided to ignore.

    It really is not a hard concept to get. Why would you do a tall tale in the PvP enabled world if you can do it in the PvE world? Because it is more fun to be interrupted, have your plans adjusted, risk your progress for no reason? Are you telling me you would do Tall Tales in a PVP world if given the choice, because your stories indicate you wouldn't...

    Yes, I don't think that the PvEvP world is always more fun than a PvE world, which is why I'm in favor of a PvE world of some kind. That's sort of my point. But this thread is full of examples of people who state quite clearly that the game is better and more fun by virtue of that risk and that adjustment to their plans. Those people presumably still would, and there seem to be plenty of them so it shouldn't be an issue.

    How do you know... what is their motivation to still play in the PVEVP world when doing PVE? That is my question to you. You claim it wouldn't be a big deal because they would still play, while I have arguments that you agree with that show that they wouldn't. Why would they risk loss if they have the choice not to lose? Nobody likes losing, that is just the case and yet it is extremely important in a multiplayer game.

    What is the motivation to still play the PVE in the PVP enabled world?
    Why would they not pick and choose just like you will, do I want PVE fun or PVP fun today?
    You enjoy PVEVP right?
    You will still sometimes go into the PVEVP world right, but won't engage in those activities like Tall Tales and fishing? So, what value would they add to the world? It makes the PVEVP world less fun, because the fun activities are no longer done within that world?

    The PvEvP world balance is created by having people do both activities in the world. They have to enter that world to fulfill both types of fun, which means they sometimes are the PvE crew and sometimes the PvP crew. Both the attacker and the defender...

  • @gtothefo

    "...including posts regarding whether or not the team should consider PvE only or PvP only servers."

    See what they did there? Masterstroke! The forum has tidied up no end..

  • @wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @gtothefo

    "...including posts regarding whether or not the team should consider PvE only or PvP only servers."

    See what they did there? Masterstroke! The forum has tidied up no end..

    Hey, I'm not saying that the attempt was effective at what was intended, but I am saying that this thread is a place to talk about whether the team should consider a PvE only or PvP only server.

  • @gtothefo tl:dr this is the place to talk about it nothink more. They are not going to read this topic to find out if they should they just dont want 1-2new posts a day where people try to discuss about it. Eh?

  • @gtothefo The problem here is people, myself included are giving you examples and evidence to support what we are saying, and you keep coming back with "I believe" statements.
    So please, name for me now one game that lost its playerbase for being too hard.
    Also, please name for me one pvpve sandbox that allowed the creation of a pure pve mode of their main pvpve experience with crossover progression that didn't end poorly.
    Do that and the eye rolling may stop, until then....

  • When you start SoT it feels like you have a lot to discover : Chests to dig up, Island to explore, that big ghost fleet under the red shittalker in the sky, Tales and lore etc... Rare did an excellent job at creating an engaging, evolving world and I believe that it is what's mostly attract new players.

    And for those new players that want to experience this content, PvP feels like an obstacle between you and the awesome things the game promises. I would argue that it isn't really the loss of treasure that causes the most problem for them, it's the interruption / shattering of the immersion that leave a bad taste.

    You're so close of finally beating Flame Heart or an Ashen Lord for the first time : someone take that joy out of your hands by kegging your ship and killing you right after while taunting you. You're on an Island trying to figure out where the trickster burried it's key : someone double snipe you then keg your ship.

    Rince and repeat.

    Sure it's not the end of the world but it doesn't feel fun. Checkpoints and changing server help but to be honest it doesn't do a great job either, it breaks the immersion, makes the experience feel more mechanical.

    The thing tho is that if they keep playing long enough, there is eventually a point where PvP becomes the more engaging content. PvE updates at current pace and quality aren't enough to keep players regularly engaged in the very long term (it's still worth your bucks but that's not the point).

    Sadly I believe that the game lack depth regarding pvp (even if the bugs were fixed). Its mechanics aren't deep enough to allow it to stand only on that leg. It would be tiresome very quicly to fight those waves of empty ships, just for the sake of repeating the same pattern again and again (down masts, create holes, board to prevent repear). PvE players are a huge part of what makes PvP enticing at the moment : the thrill of the hunt, the gambling feeling of not knowing what loot they'll gonna get, if any.

    So basically, my point would be that at the moment, PvE and PvP need eachothers. PvE players needs the prospect of PvP to stay engaged in the future and PvP players needs PvE players not to get bored. Main issue is that most players don't actually realise how they rely on eachother and thus don't act accordingly.

  • @gtothefo

    I can't possbly be any clearer than to say this game has been very carefully engineered to have a symbiotic balance of PvE and PvP. Most people do not have a problem finding that balance. It gets easier the more you play, hence why I and many others do not get camped out on outposts or get too upset when we get sunk and lose some loot.

    Allowing people the option to grind easily to PL in no time at all with no player threats then move on to find the new game of the minute because they have done it all and it's getting boring will spoil said balance of Adventure Mode for the current playerbase.

    Arena is a condensed Adventure/PvP practice mode for people who haven't time for a full session where you can work on your combat skills and literally can't lose either, you get rewarded for coming last for heavens sake..!

    I'll say it again, something like a Tall Tale server offering short quests with a bunch of gold and rep in a new faction would suit PvE casual players but they don't want this, they want to be a Legend without ever having the risk of facing a real Pirate.

    It's like you guys think you are the only people ever to have started out on this game, everybody else was just born playing it. My first sail was on a galleon with 3 eleven year old noobs back in March at the beginning of lockdown, how do you think that went for us? Not good is the answer.. we're all still playing though and my son and I got PL on the same day about 4 months later.

    You just pull your socks up and put your big boy pants on (as my friend would say) and go again.. sooner or later it isn't such a problem any more and you realise you're as good as the majority of players out there. You'll always still meet better players and probably get sunk - or not - it depends.. If you do you just end up on a nice little island with a brand new shiny ship to go off exploring again.. What's the big deal?

    Balance is the magic ingredient that gives this game it's edge..
    Balance is the exact thing that people are asking to be taken away.. No thanks!

  • @wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    I'll say it again, something like a Tall Tale server offering short quests with a bunch of gold and rep in a new faction would suit PvE casual players but they don't want this, they want to be a Legend without ever having the risk of facing a real Pirate.

    No, I want this. Why don't you think I'd want this?

  • @scarecrow1771 No, you're not. People, yourself included, are listing games that in their opinion did this or that. Other people are listing games that did the opposite. Games that, in the opinion of those people did better or worse because of this or that change. That's not evidence. Have you got a demographic based time to change profit and user base map report of these changes and these games? I don't see that there's much point trading different sorts of opinions just to see who can quote the longest list of names of games.

    But sure, you know what, if you honestly consider me to not be open to a grown up discussion or to be the manifestation of a problem poster here, I don't see my shifting your opinion on that any more than anything else.

  • @gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    I'll say it again, something like a Tall Tale server offering short quests with a bunch of gold and rep in a new faction would suit PvE casual players but they don't want this, they want to be a Legend without ever having the risk of facing a real Pirate.

    No, I want this. Why don't you think I'd want this?

    I was talking to you and said 'they' so wasn't referring to you, just the majority that want PvE servers. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

  • @wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @gtothefo

    I can't possbly be any clearer than to say this game has been very carefully engineered to have a symbiotic balance of PvE and PvP. Most people do not have a problem finding that balance. It gets easier the more you play, hence why I and many others do not get camped out on outposts or get too upset when we get sunk and lose some loot.

    Allowing people the option to grind easily to PL in no time at all with no player threats then move on to find the new game of the minute because they have done it all and it's getting boring will spoil said balance of Adventure Mode for the current playerbase.

    Arena is a condensed Adventure/PvP practice mode for people who haven't time for a full session where you can work on your combat skills and literally can't lose either, you get rewarded for coming last for heavens sake..!

    I'll say it again, something like a Tall Tale server offering short quests with a bunch of gold and rep in a new faction would suit PvE casual players but they don't want this, they want to be a Legend without ever having the risk of facing a real Pirate.

    It's like you guys think you are the only people ever to have started out on this game, everybody else was just born playing it. My first sail was on a galleon with 3 eleven year old noobs back in March at the beginning of lockdown, how do you think that went for us? Not good is the answer.. we're all still playing though and my son and I got PL on the same day about 4 months later.

    You just pull your socks up and put your big boy pants on (as my friend would say) and go again.. sooner or later it isn't such a problem any more and you realise you're as good as the majority of players out there. You'll always still meet better players and probably get sunk - or not - it depends.. If you do you just end up on a nice little island with a brand new shiny ship to go off exploring again.. What's the big deal?

    Balance is the magic ingredient that gives this game it's edge..
    Balance is the exact thing that people are asking to be taken away.. No thanks!

    Beautifully said and very accurate 👌

  • @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    Yet PvEvP is fun because of the variety it offers and the interactions between the PVE and the PVP people. Yet if you make a mode that removes the PVE people, you are left with the PVP people only, making the PvEvP world less fun.

    But it would follow that the PvE world is less fun than the PvEvP world, so you wouldn't lose all the people. Unless the point is that the PvP isn't actually fun for everyone, unless its just horrible grind for some people. If that's true, something needs to be done.

    If the treasure didn't matter to people, it wouldn't be that big of a deal if after 4 or 5 hours it would have been stolen. 4/5 hours of fun for 15 mins resulting in a loss of treasure wouldn't matter? Yet people do place value on that.

    That doesn't necessarily follow. The question is if people would still get annoyed if the chests were empty. The chests represent a culmination of a period of play, treasure and rep bump or no. To conclude that people get annoyed by not having that culmination only because of the treasure attached doesn't necessarily follow.

    Yet that was what we were discussing. I already stated multiple times that if a PVE mode is offered it should not have the same activities and rewards. You want to fish, do tall tales, do voyages in the PVE mode... That are the same activities and rewards. I have not once stated in this entire conversation that a PVE mode is impossible to do.

    This is the point. Its not what I was discussing. I made one, counter factual statement about a PvE server, and then you've locked onto that like a dog with a bone.

    So, are you stating that you agree with my point that a PVE mode is only truly viable if it doesn't?

    No, if I was saying that I would say that a PvE server would be worse than nothing. I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it would be better than nothing. That's not the same as it being a great idea. I think, as I've always thought, that an extended version of Maiden Voyage closer to something with the interest and depth of at least Arena but with more non-violent and teaching PvP elements would be the premium option, but that if that option were totally and irrefutably off the table I still think that a flat PvE server would be better than literally nothing. Better than nothing is not the same as good.

    My point is that we can bicker all day over whether or not the option that I don't think is a good idea is a terrible idea or just a bad one, but I don't think that's a profitable use of time.

    Well, the moments they do play the PVE they are offering it and they have no way to not offer it. If they just were at an outpost they were offering it before, but sold it before engaging in combat.

    But the point is that such a player never needs to engage in PvE, and during the tiny amount of time that they go from killing a player who mined up their gold through PvE to selling said gold they're not even offering up their loot they're offering up the other player's gold anyway, on top of that, the odds of encountering one player at a time is low enough, the odds of encountering two such that PvP loot is realistically being put at risk is tiny.

    You are stating that treasure is not the goal though, time is not to be converted to treasure but to fun. So if people think that is fun, shouldn't they have that option? When they pick your treasure up, they all of a sudden do offer treasure for those that attack them?

    Sure, and if people don't think its fun shouldn't they equally have the option to opt out? And yes, they offer treasure to people that attack them. My treasure.

    You cannot prevent people from selling before attacking or coming into the server and finding someone before they got anything themselves.

    Very true. And if people gaining without risk is a problem, then that's a problem. The current game has people gaining something without risking anything, that exchange is exactly what the PvE crowd are so annoyed about. They feel as though they're taking all the risk while the PvP crowd are taking no risk and getting all the reward, that's exactly what has the hardcore PvEers so annoyed.

    No, because there is a risk to PVP. Your time is not guaranteed to provide you any treasure. People complain all the time they are sunk without treasure, meaning no treasure is gained by the PVP.

    That's not really much of a risk though is it? Sometimes I sink people and they're not carrying as much loot as I thought? The idea that a mugger is running a big risk because occasionally the person that they hold up turns out to be a hobo seems a stretch.

    PVE always rewards you with treasure, it is a secure way to get gold value for your time. Also, the concern is not the PVE players and the PVP players enjoying the separation, it is about the larger group PVEVP. Which we already indicated in the post you decided to ignore.

    No, I don't ignore them, I think that they're PvEvP players, so they would play PvEvP mode. The issue seems to be that you think they're basically PvE players who are being forced to play PvEvP so would immediately desert the PvEvP mode. I don't think that.

    How do you know... what is their motivation to still play in the PVEVP world when doing PVE? That is my question to you. You claim it wouldn't be a big deal because they would still play, while I have arguments that you agree with that show that they wouldn't. Why would they risk loss if they have the choice not to lose? Nobody likes losing, that is just the case and yet it is extremely important in a multiplayer game.

    How do I know? Because they keep saying. There are masses of posts in this thread alone from people saying that the PvP of PvEvP adds loads of spice, that losing sometimes is what makes the winning so sweet, that the tales they build are so much better because of the losses they sustain. I assume they're telling the truth and wouldn't desert PvEvP mode whatever was offered.

    Lots of people here are saying that the PvEvP is more fun, and I think people play because its fun, so I think those people would keep playing PvEvP even if PvE were offered. It seems a pretty simple through line of thought. Which of those steps do you draw issue with?

    What is the motivation to still play the PVE in the PVP enabled world?

    Fun and excitement.

    Why would they not pick and choose just like you will, do I want PVE fun or PVP fun today?

    Because sometimes they will pick that they want PvEvP fun today. Most of the time. Because they bought a PvEvP game.

    You enjoy PVEVP right?

    Yep.

    You will still sometimes go into the PVEVP world right, but won't engage in those activities like Tall Tales and fishing? So, what value would they add to the world? It makes the PVEVP world less fun, because the fun activities are no longer done within that world?

    No, obviously sometimes I'll still engage in them. I tend to fish off the front of the boat on the way to an island, I'll still do that, why wouldn't I? Sure, I wouldn't go into the PvEvP server when I wanted to do nothing but fish, but I don't go into it now when I want to do nothing but fish because currently when I feel like chilling out and doing something like that I play a different game. For me this is not about if I'm going to split the time that I spend in Sea of Thieves, its about whether I'm going to spend the time that I don't spend in Sea of Thieves in Sea of Thieves. Sure I'd still play Tall Tales in the main game, because I don't do just a Tall Tale or a standard voyage, I pick Tall Tales and voyages that overlap on a loop so that I can do both. It makes voyages easier and means that I have a fall back for a worthwhile session because even if I get my loot stolen I can still have banked hitting a Tall Tale checkpoint. Why wouldn't I still do double duty? Rather, in the PvE server I'd stop to actually hunt out all those journals that I haven't gotten around to, which is something I don't do in the PvEvP server anyway because the PvEvP server engenders a sense of urgency. The PvE server version would be different and allow engagement with different parts of the game, it wouldn't replace the other server, simply extend its appeal.

    The PvEvP world balance is created by having people do both activities in the world. They have to enter that world to fulfill both types of fun, which means they sometimes are the PvE crew and sometimes the PvP crew. Both the attacker and the defender...

    Sure, but again, if someone doesn't feel like engaging in the PvE part of the game, they're totally free to go pure PvP. If you play PvE, you're playing PvEvP, sometimes the defender, sometimes the attacker, but if you play pure PvP, which is an option, you're just attacker. To some PvE inclined players who put up with the PvP parts of the experience that just feels uneven, and over time it builds into a sense of unfairness, and then they complain and eventually drift off. Which seems like a pity. The game lets you opt out from PvE, but not from PvP. People are just asking for that to be equal.

  • To Rare.

    Since this is related to the whole pvp/pve discussion, i assume this is the right place to post.

    Before some wise guy comes in with a snazzy reply.
    Yes I paid for a PvEvP game, i paid the full 70 euros even for the preorder and i've been playing since launch.
    The game is what it is, i'm done arquing how it should be,
    one side says the risk is what makes it worth and other side wants to kill skellies and nothing more. There.
    This game is the vision of the devs and unlikely to change.
    So be it. The game is there, i paid for it as it is, i know what i paid for, i play it as it is. Done.

    My question is how about a new game?
    No patch, no expansion, no changes to this one.
    How about a good old single player game with added co-op option, but no pvp and multiplayer component (co-op is the only extension). Basically server max size is 4 players on galleon that's it, server is not even needed just p2p the co-op side.
    You can ironically call it Sea of Friends or Sea of Adventure or Sea of Sailors, doesn't matter what the name is, what ever.
    It's a full priced, heck i give my promise right here right now, i'd even pay double i paid for SoT. So here's my 140 bucks for a single player game, set in the Sea of Thieves universe.
    NO CONNECTION to SoT as it is, no linked servers, no linked progression, no nothing, except it's the same engine, same graphics, same progression system, same tall tales, the full pve side of the game, but a STAND ALONE game.

    A game for people who necessarily don't want to be pirates or thieves, they just want to sail the sea, do tales, unlock as many cosmetic skins as they want. Kill endless skellies. Complete achievements, events and commendations, nothing else. Sit on skeleton thrones all day and do nothing else in their life.

    It doesn't diminish Sea of Thieves, it doesn't modify this game in anyway. The playerbase in SoT won't be divided by force.
    Players who want described SP game above, pay for it, full price.
    Cause I would.

    I dont' want Farmville, farming simulator 3000 with a tractor and crops, the next next gen pve mmo, I don't even want Cyberpunk 2077 or whatever the next big single player title will be. You can't sail on a sloop in Cyberpunk. I don't want another game.. So stop offering that as solution.
    I want this exact game world in a single player format.
    And no custom servers without progression isn't the same, it's a sandbox for online,multiplayer and casual pvp competition with premade friends, where you can't do commendations. All i want to do is commendations and time limited events on my own, alone, in silence, without anyone breathing down my neck, not in-game or outside of it.

    If you're here offering "make new friends" solution. Read the post again, since you didn't quite understand the sentence that said single player game. Co-op is the fully optional part that is not even necessary to implement. Well it might be fun every now and then. Most of my actual friends don't play MP games for the very reason of other anonymous people, cause well... People, there's no nice way of saying how people act in mp games, online or even irl, so better not to say anymore. We are all people here we all know none of us are saints or good. None of them play SoT, but with a co-op only mode i would see them maybe giving it a another chance since they would be playing with people they know and trust. I occasionally play SoT with other people, but i'd prefer single player, cause even now it's 95% of the time solo anyway, people just don't play the same hours i do, same style, same anything or as regularly or irregularly. When i grind stuff i grind and i expect the people with me to grind too, no breaks, no nothing, you sit and play. So it's better to play solo than force people act like yourself. Cause in the end you can't trust anyone else but yourself in this world. They will not jump through hoops just to modify their life schedule to play with you anytime you require or vice versa.

    The exec who's in charge of game design and development.
    You want more a little bit more money and extra profit?
    Well here's an idea..
    Make a game that the other half of a playerbase is asking for.
    There's a market for such thing, obviously.. Otherwise this whole discussion would have been over 2 years ago. At least i'm here willing to throw money at someone who makes this.. No one wants it.. okay, i guess, i can save it for myself and put it in a sock for the future then or go buy 100 boxes of cookies and chocolate, sounds reasonable.

  • @gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    But it would follow that the PvE world is less fun than the PvEvP world, so you wouldn't lose all the people. Unless the point is that the PvP isn't actually fun for everyone, unless its just horrible grind for some people. If that's true, something needs to be done.

    I bet none of us grinded athena's voyages because we thought they were fun to do, specialy before emessery update. We did it for Cosmetics that we got, we did it to show our detication to the game and stories we got from our adventures.¨

    If PvE servers were added all grind would happen there and adventure mode would become PvP mode that would only be fun for those that are currently only playing arena because reason we fight in adventure is loot, its experience that we don't get in arena where you are fighting all the time. In other words PvP would become less fun and you would have a choice, Do PvE or PvP there wouldn't be PvEvP left.

    Everyone who is currently in PvE mode doing PvE are keeping that slot away from PvP only players making it less common to get spawcamped or constantly sunken that most of people who want PvE servers are complaining about. And that way making it PvP only and if you would want to do any kind of PvE in adventure you would have 5 ships coming in you're way even if you managed to sink them because it would be rare sight to see any stealable loot. If would remove theaving from pirate game.

    I bet this post was very unclear but hope you understand this POV

  • @gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @combatxkitty Now, I don't think its entirely fair to say that everyone is 'demanding a PvE option' and expecting a game to 'cater to their wants'. Firstly, I think that people are trying to feel out ways in which the game could appeal to a wider player base and be as satisfying for all players.

    I never said "everyone", I said certain gamers. Coming here to merely discuss the possible idea of it is one thing and even I have discussed ideas about how to have a PvE mode however I see many post by people who demand a full adventure mode because they have zero interest in PvP and do not want to even bother trying to learn it. I mean really? Give me a break! They bought a game with PvP in it! That would be like me buying Forza and complaining there are no bike races, where are the bike races? I hate racing cars, bike races now!

    I've heard a few people complain that Rare have bent to 'Player demands' and done X or Y, the thing is that Rare know the actual statistics and levels of complaint one way or another. They know far better than anyone on these boards what the actual player base actually wants, the rest of us are just guessing based on personal peccadillos or at best a relatively limited sampling. There is a level of interest in alterations or additions that will and should result in a reaction from Rare, whether that level is 100% or 1% is a matter of debate, and what the reaction should be is also, but I don't think its up for debate that the debate is worthwhile. I think that there are plenty of people here that have been open minded and respectful at every point and aren't just making demands that their wants be catered to. I also think that people realise full well what Rare's target demographics were, but that what might not be accepted is that target demographics are capable of shifting over time that Rare are capable of knowing when its good sense to adapt to a shifting demographic if it does, in fact, turn up.>

    You arnt wrong, Rare does know what is best and they have made zero hints they want to add a PvE server. Actually they have been vocal against it. Sure their target customer may change over time but right now its safe to say their target is the PvPvE'r, nothing reflects otherwise. Im living in the now. Could Rare decide 3 or 4 years from now to add a PvE server , maybe, none of us really know. If they did decide that is what is best for their game would I stop playing? No, I would see how it panned out.

    As far as adding some type of PvE server, do I think some people get too strict about it ? Yes I actually do. Im not a black and white kinda person, there is always a grey area. I would not mind if Rare added some type of PvE mode in but I just think a mode where its full on adventure would destroy the balance. Modes I personally would be fine with would be:

    Tall Tale server. I actually lean the most heavy to this idea. I think that would be a fair addition and not split the base. I think making it its own faction would be fair aswell.

    A PvE mode like arena however issue with that is it makes no business sense to Rare. PvE modes are more expensive to up keep than a mode that relies on PvP. If they made a condensed PvE mode ,lets say where there are boss fights and made its own faction it would be more resources because unlike the PvP type mode a PvE mode can not rely on players as a cheap threat. Rare would actually have to develop new threats to keep that mode interesting which equals money and time.

    Also like I said in another post here a chill session where you can just hang out and find random spawn treasure,shipwrecks or whatever while cruising with friends or solo but no voyages or forts or events. I would say no RP and some gold because I dont care if someone makes abit of gold. I cans see that as a just want to chill with friends night type of thing, a break from main adventure not a replacement.

    I know Rare is coming out with custom servers but still not sure what its all about. I guess they will be rentable? Im not 100 percent sure on that its just what I heard. I dont mind renting servers but as a PC'er im use to renting servers for serious mod usage not so much to play vanilla but I would give it a try.

  • @gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    Yet PvEvP is fun because of the variety it offers and the interactions between the PVE and the PVP people. Yet if you make a mode that removes the PVE people, you are left with the PVP people only, making the PvEvP world less fun.

    But it would follow that the PvE world is less fun than the PvEvP world, so you wouldn't lose all the people. Unless the point is that the PvP isn't actually fun for everyone, unless its just horrible grind for some people. If that's true, something needs to be done.

    You can switch and choose, if you have a PVE world and a PVP world... the PvEvP world is no more. You lose the balance of the world, you make the shared world into two separate ones out of which you choose at the menu screen.

    If the treasure didn't matter to people, it wouldn't be that big of a deal if after 4 or 5 hours it would have been stolen. 4/5 hours of fun for 15 mins resulting in a loss of treasure wouldn't matter? Yet people do place value on that.

    That doesn't necessarily follow. The question is if people would still get annoyed if the chests were empty. The chests represent a culmination of a period of play, treasure and rep bump or no. To conclude that people get annoyed by not having that culmination only because of the treasure attached doesn't necessarily follow.

    The chests are empty... the chests add nothing other than gold value to your purse, you are the one that makes the argument it is only about the fun, not the treasure and yet you and many others have been moaning about the loss of that treasure.

    Yet that was what we were discussing. I already stated multiple times that if a PVE mode is offered it should not have the same activities and rewards. You want to fish, do tall tales, do voyages in the PVE mode... That are the same activities and rewards. I have not once stated in this entire conversation that a PVE mode is impossible to do.

    This is the point. Its not what I was discussing. I made one, counter factual statement about a PvE server, and then you've locked onto that like a dog with a bone.

    You state it is a counter argument? The whole premise of the discussion is not whether a PvE mode would work, but also which conditions need to apply to it. I state clear restrictions for it to function without causing issues with the current mode, you are the one fighting me on those conditions.

    So, are you stating that you agree with my point that a PVE mode is only truly viable if it doesn't?

    No, if I was saying that I would say that a PvE server would be worse than nothing. I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it would be better than nothing. That's not the same as it being a great idea. I think, as I've always thought, that an extended version of Maiden Voyage closer to something with the interest and depth of at least Arena but with more non-violent and teaching PvP elements would be the premium option, but that if that option were totally and irrefutably off the table I still think that a flat PvE server would be better than literally nothing. Better than nothing is not the same as good.

    My point is that we can bicker all day over whether or not the option that I don't think is a good idea is a terrible idea or just a bad one, but I don't think that's a profitable use of time.

    If It is a bad idea or a terrible idea... why are you arguing in favor of it? Shouldn't the developers add good ideas or great ideas and not implement bad ones that hurt their brand?

    Well, the moments they do play the PVE they are offering it and they have no way to not offer it. If they just were at an outpost they were offering it before, but sold it before engaging in combat.

    But the point is that such a player never needs to engage in PvE, and during the tiny amount of time that they go from killing a player who mined up their gold through PvE to selling said gold they're not even offering up their loot they're offering up the other player's gold anyway, on top of that, the odds of encountering one player at a time is low enough, the odds of encountering two such that PvP loot is realistically being put at risk is tiny.

    If the odds of encountering these people is so low, what is the big deal?
    If they are offering loot, it is their loot and how they acquired it is really not much of an issue.

    You are stating that treasure is not the goal though, time is not to be converted to treasure but to fun. So if people think that is fun, shouldn't they have that option? When they pick your treasure up, they all of a sudden do offer treasure for those that attack them?

    Sure, and if people don't think its fun shouldn't they equally have the option to opt out? And yes, they offer treasure to people that attack them. My treasure.

    Nobody likes to lose, so should everyone become a god and be handed the rewards for free? It is a game, losing isn't fun but it is part of a game. Should people be able to opt out of losing, no... they shouldn't. Play the game, be a good sport in victory and loss.

    You cannot prevent people from selling before attacking or coming into the server and finding someone before they got anything themselves.

    Very true. And if people gaining without risk is a problem, then that's a problem. The current game has people gaining something without risking anything, that exchange is exactly what the PvE crowd are so annoyed about. They feel as though they're taking all the risk while the PvP crowd are taking no risk and getting all the reward, that's exactly what has the hardcore PvEers so annoyed.

    People are never without risk, engaging in PvP can end up in a loss or win scenario for either end. Regardless of whether you bring treasure or not, you are risking your time, effort and fun. Once again you are purely reflecting upon the hardcore PVE and hardcore PVP people, while the major concern is the PvEvP majority people, which engage in both aspects of the game.

    They risk their treasure and do PVE as well as PVP. They will not always have loot on board and they won't always be without it. Catch them at the right time and you profit, else you end up with empty hands... if you win the battle. The question is at what time do you find them, when they are out being a PVE crew or when they are out being a PVP one?

    No, because there is a risk to PVP. Your time is not guaranteed to provide you any treasure. People complain all the time they are sunk without treasure, meaning no treasure is gained by the PVP.

    That's not really much of a risk though is it? Sometimes I sink people and they're not carrying as much loot as I thought? The idea that a mugger is running a big risk because occasionally the person that they hold up turns out to be a hobo seems a stretch.

    You keep coming back to but PVP people and but PVE people... which in turn establishes my argument even more. You keep coming back to these terms, because even the PvEvP people that you encounter you are placing in one of the boxes based on their current activity. Are they out doing PVE enjoyment or PVP enjoyment. The balance in risk is the fact that PvEvP people are both, it just matters which session and at what time you come across them.

    Provide these people a choice at the menu and that is exactly what they will be making. The choice that they usually make out on the seas, they will now make in the menu screen.

    PVE always rewards you with treasure, it is a secure way to get gold value for your time. Also, the concern is not the PVE players and the PVP players enjoying the separation, it is about the larger group PVEVP. Which we already indicated in the post you decided to ignore.

    No, I don't ignore them, I think that they're PvEvP players, so they would play PvEvP mode. The issue seems to be that you think they're basically PvE players who are being forced to play PvEvP so would immediately desert the PvEvP mode. I don't think that.

    You are a PvEvP player according to yourself, you yourself have indicated that based on the activity you want to do you would turn off PVP. Also, please read clearly the following:
    They are NOT deserting the PVEVP mode completely, they are deciding to do PVE activity in the dedicated mode for it, they have no reason to do that in the PVEVP mode and so will only enter that for their PVP needs...

    They will still play on the PvEvP mode, but they will not do so when they are out and about providing the spoils, the loot, the joy of thievery. Instead of them risking that like the people they want risking their things when they are out hunting...

    How do you know... what is their motivation to still play in the PVEVP world when doing PVE? That is my question to you. You claim it wouldn't be a big deal because they would still play, while I have arguments that you agree with that show that they wouldn't. Why would they risk loss if they have the choice not to lose? Nobody likes losing, that is just the case and yet it is extremely important in a multiplayer game.

    How do I know? Because they keep saying. There are masses of posts in this thread alone from people saying that the PvP of PvEvP adds loads of spice, that losing sometimes is what makes the winning so sweet, that the tales they build are so much better because of the losses they sustain. I assume they're telling the truth and wouldn't desert PvEvP mode whatever was offered.

    I am one of the people that says that PVP adds spice to the game, it makes the game better! Yet a meal needs balance! If you just throw in more spice but remove the rest... it is going to burn.

    Once again, people won't make a binary choice, they would make a menu choice... how many times do I have to specify this. You act like it is ONE or the OTHER... THEY WILL PLAY BOTH, PVE on the PVE server PVP on the PvEvP one... because there is no reason to PVE on the PvEvP one! There is motivation to do PVP there, because there is no PVP in the PVE one.

    Lots of people here are saying that the PvEvP is more fun, and I think people play because its fun, so I think those people would keep playing PvEvP even if PvE were offered. It seems a pretty simple through line of thought. Which of those steps do you draw issue with?

    What is the motivation to still play the PVE in the PVP enabled world?

    Fun and excitement.

    What fun and excitement? The PVE fun and excitement comes from the PVE... so that means they will go do the PVP in the PVP enabled world for that excitement, why would they do the PVE there? It isn't like they cannot swap back and forth.

    Why would they not pick and choose just like you will, do I want PVE fun or PVP fun today?

    Because sometimes they will pick that they want PvEvP fun today. Most of the time. Because they bought a PvEvP game.

    You are making the argument why a PVE server is not needed. You bought a PvEvP game... not a PVE game, if you want that play a different game. No game can be everything... that is how games fail.

    Name me one example of a game that allows you to swap between both worlds and succeeds. Where the PvEvP element is still alive and kicking in those worlds?

    You enjoy PVEVP right?

    Yep.

    Are you sure? Because frankly you sound like you want bad things to be implemented into the game to split up the servers into a PVE or PVP one.

    You will still sometimes go into the PVEVP world right, but won't engage in those activities like Tall Tales and fishing? So, what value would they add to the world? It makes the PVEVP world less fun, because the fun activities are no longer done within that world?

    No, obviously sometimes I'll still engage in them. I tend to fish off the front of the boat on the way to an island, I'll still do that, why wouldn't I? Sure, I wouldn't go into the PvEvP server when I wanted to do nothing but fish, but I don't go into it now when I want to do nothing but fish because currently when I feel like chilling out and doing something like that I play a different game. For me this is not about if I'm going to split the time that I spend in Sea of Thieves, its about whether I'm going to spend the time that I don't spend in Sea of Thieves in Sea of Thieves. Sure I'd still play Tall Tales in the main game, because I don't do just a Tall Tale or a standard voyage, I pick Tall Tales and voyages that overlap on a loop so that I can do both. It makes voyages easier and means that I have a fall back for a worthwhile session because even if I get my loot stolen I can still have banked hitting a Tall Tale checkpoint. Why wouldn't I still do double duty? Rather, in the PvE server I'd stop to actually hunt out all those journals that I haven't gotten around to, which is something I don't do in the PvEvP server anyway because the PvEvP server engenders a sense of urgency. The PvE server version would be different and allow engagement with different parts of the game, it wouldn't replace the other server, simply extend its appeal.

    Yet don't you see that for many people that is exactly what it will do? Split up their time on the seas? Not everyone had 12 hours of play time, they spend their play time on the seas giving them the options means they will divide the time they would otherwise spend on the shared seas in the PvE world.

    The PvEvP world balance is created by having people do both activities in the world. They have to enter that world to fulfill both types of fun, which means they sometimes are the PvE crew and sometimes the PvP crew. Both the attacker and the defender...

    Sure, but again, if someone doesn't feel like engaging in the PvE part of the game, they're totally free to go pure PvP. If you play PvE, you're playing PvEvP, sometimes the defender, sometimes the attacker, but if you play pure PvP, which is an option, you're just attacker. To some PvE inclined players who put up with the PvP parts of the experience that just feels uneven, and over time it builds into a sense of unfairness, and then they complain and eventually drift off. Which seems like a pity. The game lets you opt out from PvE, but not from PvP. People are just asking for that to be equal.

    You cannot opt out of PVE, I explained this before. The PVE doesn't give a damn about whether you are a PVP crew or not, it will engage with you. A kraken will attack you, a megalodon will appear, a skeleton ship will arise from the depths.

    A player can also opt not to engage in the PVP battle, you can flee, you can hide, you can scuttle...

    Also the PvE mode will not and shall never be used purely by some of the PVE inclined people, there is a huge group of people that will avoid loss at any cost. Those that will opt out because it is simply the easy thing to do. There is no motivation to do the PVE in the PVP enabled world, nada. You say fun and excitement... in other words: Internal motivation of the player. The one motivational aspect that has no merit.

    People take the most direct, easiest route to victory if you hand it to them. If there is no reason not to take that route, the majority of people won't do it. The people will still play on the shared world, for their PVP needs not their PVE ones. There is no reason to... a balanced world is fun and is what makes the PVP the spice and not the entire meal.

  • @wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    @glannigan

    I'm slogging through Half Life Alyx and would love a Co-Op mode so I can share the experience with my VR toting buddy. I think it would increase the playerbase for them too but guess what.. I'm wouldn't dream of going onto the Valve forums and demand they change their game to suit me because you do not do that sort of thing unless you have an entitled child mentality.

    They designed a game to THEIR vision. It's THEIR game not ours, we just choose to play it or not. To add a PVE server the is a mirror of adventure minus PVP would involve creating a new game almost from the ground up as has already been discussed to death on these forums. I see no harm in a PVE Tall Tale server just for gold and rep in a new faction like Arena.

    Like I said, some folk are just not cut out for life on the seas and should just come to terms with that and accept it or evolve and embrace it, it's a very simple choice..

    They make concessions to try to cater for these people with almost every release but it is never enough is it?

    No it isn’t. It’s like the old MMO companies trying to please the “Hardcore Grinders”...no matter how much work they put in and how much content they created and how long it took to obtain the new stuff the power levelers reached it in weeks if not days and then would immediately be on the attack again calling the game sheet.

    They spent all their time and resources trying to satisfy a customer that would
    Never be satisfied. No matter what they did they couldn’t “Retain” him. He was just going to go to the next New MMO grind now matter what!

    ....instead of catering to the customer they had that genuinely enjoyed the product for what it was.

  • Regarding the imbalance between PvP only ships and PvE ones in an engagement (the fact that PvE players don't have much to gain from the PvP players) :

    RARE could make it so that when you sell a stolen loot (your crew isn't the one that first touched it), you gain only 50% value from it except on reaper's hideout. They could then makes the npc appears only 30 minutes every hour (1h30 total cycle).

    That could lead to more fightings in order to contest the sale.

    That wouldn't do much to the PvP players that care more about taking the loot from someone than getting loot in a way they find more fun (most of them already stack the loot until the end of their session), but it could encourage even more to stack.

    That should help with the "but I have nothing to gain from fighting, I should just run"

  • Everyone needs to step back and be honest for a second.

    On its own merit, the PVE in this game is absolute abysmal baby kiddy trash.

    If you can’t agree with that than you are either new to games or 7 years old or not being honest with yourself.

    What makes this sub par PVE “good” is the fact that there is PVP around every corner.

    That’s what creates the tension and the feeling of accomplishment. Not the bashing of skeletons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....die...respawn, repeat...

  • Dont change anything about the PvE or PvP playstyle. You called this game Sea of Thieves for a reason right? Or maybe you guys from Rare, didn't intend to make the playstyle of the game like this. Well you just did and thats the playstyle most of the playerbase loves.

    Everyone who sails on the seas has tried to have their loot stolen or get their ship sunken. And everyone who sails on the seas needs to know there is a risk of getting your loot stolen or your ship sunken. But I get why PvE players get mad they lose hours of work to PvP'ers. But thats what the game is all about though. Pirates steal and kill just like the playstyle is in the game right now. But Rare, the moment you split up PvE and PvP players the game will be totally ruined. It'll be the most boring game ever just sailing hours upon hours just harvesting loot and turning in without no action.

    I'm a PvP players myself, and yes I'll admit that I server hop alot. But that's what drives me to play this game. The action. The style. It's like no other game. The feeling of accomplishment by hiding on a ship for hours and then it finally pays off. And no, its not always that we PvP players win, sometimes the PvE players win too.

    The salty PvE players that get their ship sunken or their loot stolen needs to stop whining about it on the forums. Because as I said earlier they should always known that there is that small risk of getting your ship sunken or your loot stolen. If you can't live with that risk then dont take the risk. Easy as that.

    In the end of the day PvE creates PvP and without either of those thing in the same "box" there will be no action.

    I really hope you guys can agree with me on this one.

    • plebochino
  • First, my very first interaction with other players was getting ganked right after the tutorial, it wasn't a big deal because no loot was on the line, but it was still kind of not encouraging,

    second, i temperarily uninstalled the game after seeing this forum, it's so disheartening to see the loudest voices in the fandom seem to be people who are more interested in thinly veiled bullying then in the actual health and fun of the game,

    third, the solution is simple, make PVP really risky so the aggressors question doing it, by putting their commendations and cosmetics on the line, if you engage in too one sided of a battle and loose, you can loose even event and real world money cosmetics to the victor, PVE players thus feel like they aren't just there to be victims for the bully whales, since they could save real world money getting a cosmetic if they score a lucky kill during a fight, while setting back their attackers,

    fourth, a sort of handicap system that makes revenge killing easier like when another crew kills you you can curse them making their ship slower giving them random effect like anchor dropping wheel turning and locking random holes ranged weapons misfiring and damaging the owner ect, and they can only sell their stolen loot at the most distant outpost, so that when a solo slooper get's ganked by a galleon, they become a raid boss for that crew and have a chance for some catharsis, and to reclaim their stuff,

  • @thanotos-omega said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

    First, my very first interaction with other players was getting ganked right after the tutorial, it wasn't a big deal because no loot was on the line, but it was still kind of not encouraging,

    second, i temperarily uninstalled the game after seeing this forum, it's so disheartening to see the loudest voices in the fandom seem to be people who are more interested in thinly veiled bullying then in the actual health and fun of the game,

    third, the solution is simple, make PVP really risky so the aggressors question doing it, by putting their commendations and cosmetics on the line, if you engage in too one sided of a battle and loose, you can loose even event and real world money cosmetics to the victor, PVE players thus feel like they aren't just there to be victims for the bully whales, since they could save real world money getting a cosmetic if they score a lucky kill during a fight, while setting back their attackers,

    fourth, a sort of handicap system that makes revenge killing easier like when another crew kills you you can curse them making their ship slower giving them random effect like anchor dropping wheel turning and locking random holes ranged weapons misfiring and damaging the owner ect, and they can only sell their stolen loot at the most distant outpost, so that when a solo slooper get's ganked by a galleon, they become a raid boss for that crew and have a chance for some catharsis, and to reclaim their stuff,

    If your willing to fight for it the timing and pacing of the game almost always gives a player the opportunity to to get it back.

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