This is probably gonna rub people off the wrong way, but there is a good explanation to this.
In the PvP mode, you should not be able to actively avoid PvP. It is that simple, you need to engage with the enemy so that the PvP can... you know... PvP.
This is just for Hourglass. Open world adventures, run as much as you like, but once you are in the Hourglass zone, you fight.
In the PvP mode,
What PvP Mode?? Rare has already clarified, Hourglass is not a mode. Hourglass is part of the Open world, so yes you are free to fight how ever you wish, and what happens happens.
Of course, they adding shrinking circles to combat this.
If running is reportable, Chasing should be. Regardless of where or what your doing.
I've fought players who take 2 cannon shots and sail away to reset. Does this constitute running?
It certainly can be frustrating. I did a little hg over gold and glory and ran into a fair bit of this behaviour. Lots of full speed sailing, avoiding combat. Very difficult to play against in solo hg, not impossible but still not great. I ended up just parking up in the middle of the circle and waiting for ages. I probably should have quit, but it really goes against the grain to reward such poor behaviour. I guess at least I cost these individuals a bit of time and reduced their oppurtunity to do this to other players. Win or lose, getting fights done quickly (especially during bonus weekends) is way more effective at gaining levels than dragging out fights. If a fight goes for some time because both players are fighting well, thats a lot of fun. Intentionally trying to frustrate players into quitting is just scummy. I think I might rather deal with cheaters, at least they get things over quickly. Hopefully the shrinking circle will mitigate a lot of this.
Of course this only applies during Hourglass. During non-hg play, running is perfectly valid. Might often be a waste of time, but can absolutely be the right decision. Running, fighting, tucking, anything goes. But in hourglass you are volunteering for a 1v1 equal fight (champion fights and third parties excluded).
@burnbacon said
If running is reportable, Chasing should be. Regardless of where or what your doing.
It's almost as if, wait for it, wait for IT...
PvP'ing too hard in this game already copes you a ban in the form of ''spawn camping'' a crew.
Imagine being so damn good at TDM'ing on someones ship, instead of having a game system that prevents that at a certain point in time, you just get greeted with a 7 day game ban, that you have to figure out as to why... And a threat of a perma ban if repeated...
RARE literally does the meme that if your too good in a game, they ban you from the game, un-ironically.
Yes I am still salty months later of getting my first ban because I was spawn camping a duo on their ship, when I didn't even know that was a rule to begin with. As far as I recall they were retaliating and trying to get me off their ship, it's fair game no? According to RARE it's not. It took me weeks later to actually realize ''spawn camping'' (What I have done) can actually get you banned.
I don't even consider it spawn camping, as spawning back in your ship is randomized, as soon as you appear back, you have JUST as an equal shot to win against me. Let alone if you are two against one like I was...
So I must ask, why shouldn't we have arbitrary rules that also ban players for running in a PvP setting & Tool that is Hourglass? You agreed to fight another ship/player, so why are we wasting time here by doing anything but that and running in circles? How is that fair to the other crew that wanted a fight? I'm not talking about fight resets either, I'm talking about full on trolling doing everything they can to sail AWAY permanently.
I know what I just said in the last point above is never going to happen, because we know RARE caters to softies as per usual, which is the case for the ''spawn camping'' rule to be introduced in the first place.
There just isn't a equivalent on the flip side for playing like an absolute coward.
@broadsideban what's crazy about that is that they even introduced a pop-up notification on the ferry reminding people that scuttling is an option (reads as a suggestion when it pops 😂).
@sweetsandman said in Running Should be a Reportable Offense:
@broadsideban what's crazy about that is that they even introduced a pop-up notification on the ferry reminding people that scuttling is an option (reads as a suggestion when it pops 😂).
Oh yeah I now, I've been on the receiving end of getting spawn camped, it isn't pleasant, but the last thing I'm going to do is make an effort to cry like a MASSIVE baby, gather evidence, and spend time on the support page trying to get said player/s banned because I'm a salty loser who finds it ''toxic'' that I got bettered in a game that offers PvP where it is sometimes inevitable.
That ain't me, for others, it is... As evident.
RARE could of added an invincibility mechanic where you cannot take damage for 5-10 seconds upon spawning back in after 'x' amount of deaths in a row without killing them inbetween. You can use those seconds to kill them or position yourself to have an advantage such as launching to their ship, or using the food barrel etc.
But no, it's just easier to [mod edit] make everyone ''inclusive'' by making a small segment of good players marginalized in the process...
@broadsideban did you repair their ship?
This used to be the line Rare drew to determine if it was sportsmanlike or not. Unless you were actively trying to keep them afloat, it used to be permissible.
Imho, for as long as the scuttle function existed, it should have been permissible regardless. But this has proven to be a company that coddles frail egos.
Sometimes I hear things like "sloop arena," that catch my attention and make me consider reinstalling. Then I come to the forums to get my reality check & make me feel better about walking away when I did.
[mod removed]
- Running? not allowed
- Using tools provided in the sandbox (cursed/wraith cannons, firebombs, etc)? not allowed
Specials take the skill out of what is supposed to be a fairly matched 1v1 (thin player pool aside). It's not that it isn't allowed. But people who want a cleaner fight might think it's corny.
Running, I would think, is more obviously unsportsmanlike. Contests and sports traditionally have rules against disengagement, delay of game, etc. Hourglass is the only mode feature in any game I've played, where one party can just endlessly run without any sort of penalty.
Specials take the skill out of what is supposed to be a fairly matched 1v1
Pirates would disagree. But it funny, people think exploits is skillful :p
who ever says Hourglass is strict 1v1 needs to screenshot where it says that.
But people who want a cleaner fight might think it's corny.
Who wants cleaner fights? Bigger and louder booms are best. And nothing is corny about using what the world itself gives you.
one party can just endlessly run without any sort of penalty.
Penalty is Time waste. If they wanna play game of endurance, by all means...let see who wins in the long 'run' xD
who ever says Hourglass is strict 1v1 needs to screenshot where it says that... nothing is corny about using what the world itself gives you... If they wanna play game of endurance, by all means...let see who wins in the long 'run' xD
At least you are consistent. It shouldn't surprise anyone that you rely on specials, teaming up, and running just to waste time.
Until they shut the servers off, you will remain a swabbie.
@broadsideban
I approve this message, give the community less arbitrary ways to ban people, because any time you do something that's against their playstyle, they try to get you banned for some absurd reason.
I got banned for spawn camping as well, and I was only doing it to sink people in solo hg, never repaired their boat, only bucketed for the safety bucket (when you grab a bucket and throw it just before to jump the sink)
@burnbacon said
who ever says Hourglass is strict 1v1 needs to screenshot where it says that.
People who play only HG kind of have this unwritten rule where no specials allowed, albeit it's mostly between people that know each other, or kind of respect this unwritten rule regardless.
You know, being sportsmanlike, that one word you used the other day? Seems to have escaped you here didn't it?
Getting ballast balled, than sleep balled 3 times in a row, means you can't actually do anything and you are stun locked into a sink, it's not very fun.
But yes, it's in the game to be used. So some are going to use it regardless. The same type of people who cry about dying a bit too much on their ship when boarded and threaten bans xD.
Who wants cleaner fights? Bigger and louder booms are best. And nothing is corny about using what the world itself gives you.
uh-huh.
Yes, running in Hourglass is super annoying, but it's something they are already looking to address in Season 19 with the shrinking battle area. You're an Insider, so you already know this. They may continue to run, but the time limit means they can't do it forever.
Any other attempts to limit running or make it reportable would likely lead to scenarios where someone is reported for resetting, repositioning, or where their helm is broke making turning hard - especially if lower deck holes take priority.
None of those would I categorise as bad sportsmanship in the same way as edgerunners - someone immediately running to the edge and avoiding combat for 40+ mins, which is something I have encountered multiple times (and yes, I know their intent is to bait me to the edge so they can board and sail me out).
If Running is such a need to be reported. The following should as well...
All have been said, mentioned, listed as; Annoying, unsporting, uncalled for, not necessary, waste of time, and other random things people like to throw out.
But, it part of the game, part of a tactic and many of you seem to fail at adapting to it and rather have it all banned/removed so it straight up. Cannon balls only. Instead of acknowledging your personal faults and improve, you want the world around you to change..for you only. Regardless if others actually enjoy the silly, crazy fun.
@burnbacon said
If Running is such a need to be reported. The following should as well...
Using Curses, Bone Callers, Kegs, Chain shots.
Chasing.
Spawn Camping
DGing
Sword Spamming
Traps
Blunders, Fire Bombs
Boarding, dropping anchor
Breathing heavy in mic
Saying GG
But, it part of the game, part of a tactic and many of you seem to fail at adapting to it and rather have it all banned/removed so it straight up. Cannon balls only. Instead of acknowledging your personal faults and improve, you want the world around you to change..for you only. Regardless if others actually enjoy the silly, crazy fun.
Sounds eerily familiar when players made spawn camping a bannable offence because they can't keep up in hand to hand combat on their own ship...
Rules for Thee but not for me!
Also I asked you in another thread but you completely dodged the question, where in the game does it state killing an enemy repeatedly on their ship is a bannable offence?
[Mod edit - again, keep misniformation out, please]
If they deem the spawn camp to continue for extended time period or you bucketing their ship in process, you get a ban. etc. Despite being a scuttle feature and so on introduced to fight against it.
This game will die with one of the hottest topics being the spawn camp ban debate till infinite times, a lot of players quit from both sides of the equation because of it. One complains about their bad experiences from getting camped, the other quit because they got a ban or two from doing so despite no rules going against it. (That isn't unwritten).
It's stupid to have an unwritten rule that affects players accounts...
@broadsideban said in Running Should be a Reportable Offense:
Also I asked you in another thread but you completely dodged the question, where in the game does it state killing an enemy repeatedly on their ship is a bannable offence?
You get banned from Support staff from at their own discretion/biases for literally being better than your opponent by killing them repeatedly, RARE BAN THEM PLEASE! It's toxic that they are better than me!If they deem the spawn camp to continue for extended time period or you bucketing their ship in process, you get a ban. etc. Despite being a scuttle feature and so on introduced to fight against it.
This game will die with one of the hottest topics being the spawn camp ban debate till infinite times, a lot of players quit from both sides of the equation because of it. One complains about their bad experiences from getting camped, the other quit because they got a ban or two from doing so despite no rules going against it. (That isn't unwritten).
It's stupid to have an unwritten rule that affects players accounts...
From the Code of Conduct:
[NEVER] Harass, bully, intimidate, threaten or encourage others to do harm. None of these behaviours will be tolerated. Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment. Not only do we take these things very seriously, many law enforcement agencies recognise online abuse as an offence. If necessary, we will report incidents to the relevant authorities to take further action.
This is what covers spawncamping or, to be more precise, spawncamping without the intent to secure a sink. Bucketing a crew to keep them afloat while you continue to kill them for sport is against the Code of Conduct 100%.
If they have no holes in their ship and you make no attempt to put holes in it, either by crashing their ship, fire, or by firing cannonballs at them, that is also in considered to be the same.
If players don't want to be reported for spawncamping, sink the ship. Simple.
While scuttling is indeed an option, it doesn't give players a free pass to spawncamp and behave in such a dispicable manner.
[NEVER] Harass, bully, intimidate, threaten or encourage others to do harm. None of these behaviours will be tolerated. Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment.
...solely designed to target and upset another player...
So if I try to lock down a 1v4 for the sake of aim training and nothing else, I'm okay, right? No? Because the language is set up to assume intent and call it bullying regardless, yes?
Did the player being spawncamped have the means to leave at will, regardless of what I intended to do, at any moment they wanted? Were they, on their own, able to walk away from any potential repeated activity?
Does it even matter that a scuttle function exists, and rather than Rare emphasizing its existence and use to the playerbase, they penalize players who want to PvP for PvP sake, and blanket label them "bullies"?
Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew...
Once again "designed to" implying some sort of intent from the person being accused. Cannoning an enemy till they sink is a "repeated activity" that can arguably be "designed to ruin the experience" of the player or crew getting cannoned.
But regardless, if the langauge is this loose, can anyone who is clipped running endlessly (look out, @BurnBacon) fall into this category? And of course I'm not counting resetting or any reasons to temporarily retreat, I'm talking the "it's a sandbox, I can run if I want to" players (yes, you, @BurnBacon).
You can lump your "edge runners" in here as well.
@theblackbellamy said in Running Should be a Reportable Offense:
[NEVER] Harass, bully, intimidate, threaten or encourage others to do harm. None of these behaviours will be tolerated. Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment.
...solely designed to target and upset another player...
So if I try to lock down a 1v4 for the sake of aim training and nothing else, I'm okay, right? No? Because the language is set up to assume intent and call it bullying regardless, yes?
Correct. Because using other players as a means to "train" against their wishes is poor sportsmanship and you know that.
Did the player being spawncamped have the means to leave at will, regardless of what I intended to do, at any moment they wanted? Were they, on their own, able to walk away from any potential repeated activity?
Yes, they can scuttle, as already mentioned. This doesn't excuse the behaviour of the spawncamper. No more than the ability to quit the game excuses cheaters or those who shout slurs. Actions have consequences.
Does it even matter that a scuttle function exists, and rather than Rare emphasizing its existence and use to the playerbase, they penalize players who want to PvP for PvP sake, and blanket label them "bullies"?
They do highlight its existence. Again, you're looking to excuse abhorrent behaviour by victim blaming.
Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew...
Once again "designed to" implying some sort of intent from the person being accused. Cannoning an enemy till they sink is a "repeated activity" that can arguably be "designed to ruin the experience" of the player or crew getting cannoned.
It's not even in the same realm as spawncamping and you know it. In spawncamp situations that exist in this game, spawncampers will often double-tap the instant a player respawns. They know the respawn points (that's why they stand on the canopy of a sloop) and they know there is no respawn protection and that the player respawns without a weapon drawn. It's not even close to a fair fight when trying to break a spawncamp. Most times it's futile.
But regardless, if the langauge is this loose, can anyone who is clipped running endlessly (look out, @BurnBacon) fall into this category? And of course I'm not counting resetting or any reasons to temporarily retreat, I'm talking the "it's a sandbox, I can run if I want to" players (yes, you, @BurnBacon).
You can lump your "edge runners" in here as well.
The language isn't loose, unless you fail to understand it, and they have explained it repeatedly in developer updates... spawncamping is only excusable when the intent is to sink the ship being camped.... that is it. Evidence, however, is key.
I would personally lump edge runners in there but, in reality, their tactic is still to win the fight... just by being annoying and hoping their opponent quits, or falls for the bait.
It's not Mensa-level stuff, so stop sea-lioning the argument.
@broadsideban said in Running Should be a Reportable Offense:
If they deem the spawn camp to continue for extended time period or you bucketing their ship in process, you get a ban. etc. Despite being a scuttle feature and so on introduced to fight against it.
Every game has a 'leave game' button too - doesn't mean that bullying someone into pressing it is acceptable behavior in any of them.
...using other players as a means to "train" against their wishes is poor sportsmanship and you know that.
This is where we fundamentally disagree & everything sub-Mensa level thereafter doesn't really matter.
I've often recommended to others that the best way to get better at naval, is to go out there and naval other ships. This is, quite literally, also using other players and crews as a means to train, whether or not they wish to participate in the naval.
Unless you disagree with that as well, then the only difference between us is where we draw the line in what is and isn't sportsmanlike training, when PvPing with players and crews who don't wish to participate.
I'm not excusing the use of slurs or cheating or any actual unsportsmanlike behavior. This isn't victim blaming. This is saying: there is no victim.
Someone got on your ship and PvPed you in the PvP game. They weren't saying anything toxic over mic or chat. They didn't use any cheats. You made no effort to use the scuttle function to get yourself out of the situation. Poor you?
As long as the story ends there, I don't see this as "bullying" the way you and Rare seem to.
@theblackbellamy No, you're right, it's not that it's actually not allowed, but it's these arbitrary rules that hourglass-onlys love to try and impose on others, then whine when they don't get their way. If anyone's playing SoT and expecting it to be/operate like other more competitive FPS games, they're playing the wrong game.
I don't disagree that running is annoying, but I think a lot of people get immediately upset the second a ship needs to reset after a volley of cannonfire.
But for me, the hilarious irony is that the same people complaining about CCs, BBs, FBs, etc, are the same ones that are/were historically fine with using animation cancels/exploits. Rules for thee, but not for me.
I don't think you're understanding the difference. In naval you're on the same footing, in spawncamping you are not. In naval you have far more defensive options.
Spawncamping heavily favours the aggressor. The player being camped can be killed while still spawning in, often still on a black screen, and doesn't even have access to food supplies while on the Ferry.
Saying "just scuttle" is absolutely victim blaming. It's absolving any culpability from the player doing the spawncamp.
I still favour some kind of temporary spawn protection, but any attempts to introduce this has been fought back on by those who want to keep this terrible behaviour in the game.
If you want to defend an unfair fight, I don't know what to say. Other players are not there for you to train TDM on and Rare's enforcement team agree.
Back to the actual topic of running in hourglass, Rare has decided it's enough of an issue that they're addressing it with a shrinking circle.
I don't think you're understanding the difference. In naval you're on the same footing, in spawncamping you are not. In naval you have far more defensive options.
The specific example I gave you was attempting to lock down a 1v4. That is not putting myself on the same footing. That is a challenge. The situation described by the formerly-banned person in this thread was a 1v2. Even in a 1v1 situation, it is very possible to break out of a camp. Though spawns are limited on a sloop, one person can't be at the ready to 2-tap each location at once.
Now once we get into N vs (N-1) situations, then you can argue its "unfair" and I would even argue "not useful training." But I would still not go as far as saying unsportsmanlike. It is PvP. Unless they are doing something toxic in addition to it, I don't see how you can make the stretch from "unfair" to "bullying."
There is plenty in the game that is "unfair" but considered permissible. Galleon attacking sloops. Attacking fresh spawns. Camping outposts or islands for turn-ins. Tucking on forts.
Regardless, being able to PvP on a ship, on your own, is a very useful skill. And one that requires practice. It's not that I don't understand the difference between the two. It's that I think you're nitpicking differences and labeling spawncamping (even when outnumbered by the camped crew??) as unsportsmanlike, simply because you think its unfair. But all unfair naval situations are sportsmanlike, simply because naval offers "more defensive options."
It's PvP. Toxicity is toxicity. PvP is PvP. Except in this game, apparently.
We can keep going back and forth on this or you can accept that it's the rules. I've pointed out the specific part of the Code of Conduct that covers it and Rare have clarified it on multiple occasions.
If TDMers want an actual challenge, I am 100% sure there are communities that exist to cater to that with competitions and the upcoming addition of custom seas should also help organise events. I'm certain that's far more useful than spawncamping 4 less-than-capable swabbies on a galleon.
Other games that are actual PvP-focused games, and not PvPvE sandboxes with zero skill-based matchmaking, have dealt with the issue far better than Sea of Thieves does... by addressing the mechanics of the situation.
To tie it back to the actual topic though (because this is veering off), it's far harder for them to specify similar rules when it comes to ships that run in Hourglass, as there are far more grey areas. So that's why we're getting the shrinking area. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
We can keep going back and forth on this
I'm good if you are.
I've already accepted their rules on this, quick-swapping, and everything else in the past. That doesn't mean I think it is, at the very least, inaccurate (and somewhat dishonest) to blanket label all forms of spawncamping (without intent to sink) as "bullying" when there is no toxic behavior associated with it.
To the topic, endless running is unsportsmanlike, when in a contest to sink the opponent. And if Rare is adding to Hourglass in ways that prevent this and other types of genuinely unsportsmanlike behavior... good.
