Dark Adventurers Sails

@aerotsune said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

Just a reminder to keep things civil and respectful. (Not necessarily the most recent posts in question, but rather just an overall as this thread has gotten a little heated.) Thank you.

Hot topics do tend to get heated by their nature, unfortunately.

We've seen it before with contentious issues like PvE vs PvP vs PvPvE, and prior to that the Xbox Console opt-out requests.

Unless it's officially addressed by Rare* as to their stance on it, I think it will just keep coming up again and again. These issues are ones that should really be dealt with early on, or they fester and blow up. Perhaps it's a topic they can tackle on the next podcast?

(*I do realise you're a Rare Employee but I'm not specifically pointing that at you by the way, I don't know your role... just like I wouldn't want to be addressed as if I can speak for my employer's decisions)

I do genuinely wonder if there was any notion during the design process that these sails would be so divisive? Regardless if their "advantage" is actual or just perceived.

@grumpyw01f said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad
If no one in your crew is telling you that the enemy crew is turning, you have a problem with your crew, not with your sails.

You do realize that not everyone plays the same way as you do right? Not everyone has dedicated friends who are available 24/7 and not everyone uses a microphone. Many people use open crew and in these cases the DA sails become even more of a (slight?) advantage.

So i really dont see why youre giving your opinion on this issue when you said yourself that this is something that doesnt affect your specific play style in the slightest?

Seems to be a common problem on these forums:

-Player 1 has an issue

-Player 2 spams the whole thread arguing that they personally dont have that issue

-Player 1's issue gets ignored.

|

Same thing happened when i asked for chat history and team only chat - microphone users insisted that nobody cares about it and ended the conversation.

@alienmagi
So because crews sometimes suck, DA sails have an advantage and should be changed?

It's not my playstyle, it's the playstyle that wins fights and completes PvE quickly. Hey - I know not every crew is like mine, and if you give my post a second read, the sentence you quoted is a small part of my post. Most of my argument is that even if DA sails gave an advantage it would be extremely situational. Let's be real - if you're on an open crew with no communication, are your sails going to change the outcome when your crewmates don't keep their health full, don't repair, don't listen for boarder, etc.? I know it's not all people, but how deep are we going to go into examples of situations before we agree that any potential advantage would be extremely situational?
Here's what I've got so far in general:
If you are in a galleon, chasing another ship from straight behind, with your sails in the middle position, and your crewmembers aren't communicating with you, then you have to get off the wheel to check where the enemy ship is going, losing you a couple seconds of reaction time.

That's a lot of criteria for two or three seconds of reaction time, when a lack of communication is fatal to most PvP encounters, DA sails or no.

---

Player 1 has an issue
-Player 2 spams the whole thread arguing that they personally dont have that issue
-Player 1's issue gets ignored.

Most of the time, Player 1 wants something in the game that goes against the core of the game or is infeasible. That's why they get shot down, because the top posters understand the game and in most cases what doesn't fit in the game. When they are wrong (fear of sharks) the mods make it clear what is valid.
And since you are referring to this thread, if you look at everyone's posts without searching for hidden wrongs, we don't "spam." The OP posts, and we reply. the OP and their supporters reply to us, and we reply back until the issue is covered to exhaustion, locked, or dies out. It's just a back and forth, not post spamming because we disagree. Why don't we focus on your problems with the DA sails rather than trying to take the moral high ground because the top posters are mean or something.

---

If Rare were to change the DA sails, realistically they'd have to go back and change all torn sails as well, since some pirates had problems with those, too. Changing the DA sails stifles innovation.

Thoughts on this statement? If DA sails give an advantage and must be changed, then all torn sails, however small the cut, must be changed to fix this. Would you like to remove all uniqueness in sail shape?

@grumpyw01f said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@alienmagi
So because crews sometimes suck, DA sails have an advantage and should be changed?

It's not my playstyle, it's the playstyle that wins fights and completes PvE quickly. Hey - I know not every crew is like mine, and if you give my post a second read, the sentence you quoted is a small part of my post. Most of my argument is that even if DA sails gave an advantage it would be extremely situational. Let's be real - if you're on an open crew with no communication, are your sails going to change the outcome when your crewmates don't keep their health full, don't repair, don't listen for boarder, etc.? I know it's not all people, but how deep are we going to go into examples of situations before we agree that any potential advantage would be extremely situational?
Here's what I've got so far in general:
If you are in a galleon, chasing another ship from straight behind, with your sails in the middle position, and your crewmembers aren't communicating with you, then you have to get off the wheel to check where the enemy ship is going, losing you a couple seconds of reaction time.

That's a lot of criteria for two or three seconds of reaction time, when a lack of communication is fatal to most PvP encounters, DA sails or no.

---

Player 1 has an issue
-Player 2 spams the whole thread arguing that they personally dont have that issue
-Player 1's issue gets ignored.

Most of the time, Player 1 wants something in the game that goes against the core of the game or is infeasible. That's why they get shot down, because the top posters understand the game and in most cases what doesn't fit in the game. When they are wrong (fear of sharks) the mods make it clear what is valid.
And since you are referring to this thread, if you look at everyone's posts without searching for hidden wrongs, we don't "spam." The OP posts, and we reply. the OP and their supporters reply to us, and we reply back until the issue is covered to exhaustion, locked, or dies out. It's just a back and forth, not post spamming because we disagree. Why don't we focus on your problems with the DA sails rather than trying to take the moral high ground because the top posters are mean or something.

---

If Rare were to change the DA sails, realistically they'd have to go back and change all torn sails as well, since some pirates had problems with those, too. Changing the DA sails stifles innovation.

Thoughts on this statement? If DA sails give an advantage and must be changed, then all torn sails, however small the cut, must be changed to fix this. Would you like to remove all uniqueness in sail shape?

why do you assume that the situations i described include newbies who are bad at the game and non communicative players? I normally friend experienced and communicative people in open crew and when they have a mic theres keyboard and quick chat which is very effective with skilled players.

I wasnt talking about things like shark phobias, the "issue" im talking about there is about unfair advantage which i always thought goes against Rare's idea of the game.

My thoughts on that statement? I think Rare could let us chose the tear/cut of the sails that already have a full graphic and all the future ones. I assume that would be somewhat easy to implement and it would add a lot of variety in the game.

@alienmagi

why do you assume that the situations i described include newbies who are bad at the game and non communicative players? I normally friend experienced and communicative people in open crew and when they have a mic theres keyboard and quick chat which is very effective with skilled players.

My post:

I know it's not all people,

If your open crew is communicative more often than not, then you're proving my point that communication destroys any chance of the DA sails giving an advantage.

---

I wasnt talking about things like shark phobias, the "issue" im talking about there is about unfair advantage which i always thought goes against Rare's idea of the game.

I wasn't either, you said that posters kill ideas by spamming that it's not a problem, and I was talking about that subject specifically, nothing about DA sails. I gave an example of where top posters thought that something wasn't really needed in the game (to your point) and said that the mods stepped in for that situation.

---

My thoughts on that statement? I think Rare could let us chose the tear/cut of the sails that already have a full graphic and all the future ones. I assume that would be somewhat easy to implement and it would add a lot of variety in the game.

Here's some common ground - I would be all for choosing tears in the game. I don't think it would be easy to implement, though. Take Ashen Dragon Sails. At the bottom with the cutout, there are glowing parts. To change the cutout, the glowing parts would have to move with the cutout. More than likely, if every sail had 3 extra cut options, Rare would have to modify the textures for each option.
To a lesser extent, tears (not cutouts) would also go against the ideas of some of the factions. Sea Dogs are an image of excellence, the Merchant Alliance is prim and proper, And Gold Hoarders are about showing off your gold. It wouldn't make sense if these factions had tears in their sails, though cutouts would be fine.

The sails only provide better awareness.

To say these sails kill enemy pirates or sink ships is a huge assumption.
They can be advantageous, but they don't automatically send pirates to the ferryman.

Much more has to occur that has nothing to do with the sails you fly.

@grumpyw01f said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@alienmagi

why do you assume that the situations i described include newbies who are bad at the game and non communicative players? I normally friend experienced and communicative people in open crew and when they have a mic theres keyboard and quick chat which is very effective with skilled players.

My post:

I know it's not all people,

If your open crew is communicative more often than not, then you're proving my point that communication destroys any chance of the DA sails giving an advantage.

---

I wasnt talking about things like shark phobias, the "issue" im talking about there is about unfair advantage which i always thought goes against Rare's idea of the game.

I wasn't either, you said that posters kill ideas by spamming that it's not a problem, and I was talking about that subject specifically, nothing about DA sails. I gave an example of where top posters thought that something wasn't really needed in the game (to your point) and said that the mods stepped in for that situation.

---

My thoughts on that statement? I think Rare could let us chose the tear/cut of the sails that already have a full graphic and all the future ones. I assume that would be somewhat easy to implement and it would add a lot of variety in the game.

Here's some common ground - I would be all for choosing tears in the game. I don't think it would be easy to implement, though. Take Ashen Dragon Sails. At the bottom with the cutout, there are glowing parts. To change the cutout, the glowing parts would have to move with the cutout. More than likely, if every sail had 3 extra cut options, Rare would have to modify the textures for each option.
To a lesser extent, tears (not cutouts) would also go against the ideas of some of the factions. Sea Dogs are an image of excellence, the Merchant Alliance is prim and proper, And Gold Hoarders are about showing off your gold. It wouldn't make sense if these factions had tears in their sails, though cutouts would be fine.

If youre not using a microphone the sails become even more of an advantage because it takes longer to communicate whats ahead. So its still kind of unfair to those players. The point you made that you win fights because of microphones and dedicated crews is exactly because of things like DA sails making an even larger performance gap between the 2 types of players.

I assume the sail glows are part of the graphic itself.
I dont see why some hoarders/merchants/seadogs wouldnt have torn sails? I could think of a million reasons why a ship thats supposed to be elegant becomes worn down. Like, they could be deserters, or on a long and hard voyage or just be battle worn.

@d3adst1ck i guess in that case i would rather just see more sails with the DA cut in the future.

@inboundbomb said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@inboundbomb said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@inboundbomb said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@galactic-geek said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@kommodoreyenser said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@wolfmanbush said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@alienmagi said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

As someone who owns the DA sails, i agree.

@wolfmanbush said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

Fights how they occur in this game a large majority of the time these sails aren't changing anything either way

Thats just straight up not true lol.

nobody has ever taken you out because they had DA sails

they took you out by chain shotting your mast and dominating close combat or they got on your boat and spawn camped you or naval'd you into oblivion with sails that were not all the way down

I think you're not playing Sea of Thieves. Ofcourse they give you a big advantage and that is exactly what this game is not about everyone should be equal. I think you have never been on a galleon or brig on the wheel.

Literally the first thing you do (or should) when engaging someone with a galleon is pull main sail all the way up... Huge maneuvering advantage and lets your cannon guys actually aim and hit stuff. I love fighting fools that leave all sails down in a fight. They never hit a thing even if they manage an angle.

Euh this is based on you not having a ton of holes in your ship and trying to get away from another ship.. So totally not valuable information.

It is valuable - just with the proper context. Knowing when to slow down or speed up or angle sails or turn the wheel in which direction and how far, or even when to drop the anchor are all integral during combat.

They have an advantage it's simple as it is. You have more vision you don't need the helmsman to get of the wheel and look behind the sails where people are. Don't try to make excuses, everyone knows they give big advantages. Let me create a situation here. Let's say you have a galleon in front of you and you are on a galleon with the standard white sails and they are trying to outrun you. If they make a hard left or right you won't see this happening because the sails are in the way you need to ask someone on your crew to check for you or you need to walk to the front to check what they are doing. This small amount of time can make the difference of them losing you bigger and this is exactly the reason why DA sails have advantages.

Why isn't there someone on the front watching for you and possible boarders? The other 2 manage sails and ladders. Just saying.

Then he still needs to tell the helmsman to turn this will cause a delay because if you have DA sails the helmsman would see this himself.

You wouldn't see the movement of the ship if you were head NW in a storm climbing a wave but the person on the front would. Again if you think in your opinion that it helps those that can't rely on a their crew then so be it. Those of us that disagree are those that have competent crews full time or have been sailing long where this "advantage" is equal to a foul skull.

We are talking about you getting information from someone else because you can't see it which causes delay because you need to talk instead of seeing it yourself. Even 2 seconds or 3 seconds are a big advantage never watched NAL where they are trying to improve reaction speed for this kind of situations? And don't come with the perfect situations where you are totally destroying every crew because that's not always the case. If you are panicking don't try to tell me you still have full control over everything.

I can tell you that we both have different playstyles and I sail with the same crew for the past 2+ years. DA sails don't mean squat to us. Every situation is different and you haven't proven enough insite to where the whole 2 to 3 seconds of you seeing them turn won or lost a battle. If cannot count on the crew then you only are counting on yourself and that is what it is.

Still you don't get the concept of reaction delay, it's not that hard to understand. If the helsman can see something himself he doesn't need to wait to make the decision because he is waiting on someones answer. [mod edit]

@alienmagi

I dont see why some hoarders/merchants/seadogs wouldnt have torn sails? I could think of a million reasons why a ship thats supposed to be elegant becomes worn down. Like, they could be deserters, or on a long and hard voyage or just be battle worn.

Sail cuts/tears represent the aesthetic of the ship set. Just as the tears in Ghost Sails help tell the story of an ethereal ship, a perfect sail helps tell the story of the Sea Dogs. The Dark Adventurer set is all about sharp edges and corners, and the sail reflects that.
Torn sails would definitely fit for a SD/MA/GH ship that is designed to look worn down, but adding tears to an already existing sail from those companies would not fit the aesthetic for those sets.

i guess in that case i would rather just see more sails with the DA cut in the future.

I agree. Maybe future black sails could have them, or there could be a more circular cutout for a different set that doesn't fit the aesthetic. Or a wave pattern for a water- themed set?

@madcazbad

If the helsman can see something himself he doesn't need to wait to make the decision because he is waiting on someones answer.

https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/142740/dark-adventurers-sails/96

---

[mod edit]

@grumpyw01f said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad

If the helsman can see something himself he doesn't need to wait to make the decision because he is waiting on someones answer.

https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/142740/dark-adventurers-sails/96

---

[mod edit]

@madcazbad
I've countered your points many times... Where's your counterpoints? It looks to me like your the one who can't change their mind. I've hit common ground with AlienMagi.

@grumpyw01f said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad
I've countered your points many times... Where's your counterpoints? It looks to me like your the one who can't change their mind. I've hit common ground with AlienMagi.

You don't know what reaction delay is go search it on Google. If someone as helmsman can see which side a ship is turning instead of him depending on a crewmate then the crewmate doesn't need to tell the helmsman that he needs to turn. What don't you get about that? THE HELMSMAN DOESN'T NEED TO WAIT ON THE CREWMATE TO SEE FOR HIM. Also not 1 of your answers is a counter please stop using this excuses go to NAL crews and say this to them, I already know what their reaction is. You are on every discussion in the whole SoT forum always trying to make your point while it's not even valid, do you like dicussions even if there is no dicussion possible about the subject. DA sails are an advantage in certain situations where reaction speed of your brains matter. What's so hard to get? If you are on your wheel and you can't see under your sails like with a galleon or a brig then someone in your crew needs to tell you and that is reaction delay for you because you need to hear him say what's happening this will take maybe like 2 seconds then you need to react takes like maybe another 1 second and then you need to steer takes another 1/2 seconds, this makes up for 4/5 seconds total. If you can see the ship turning your self because you have DA sails and you can look under it you can instantly turn this will only cause 2 seconds delay instead of 4/5 seconds. Now you get my point?

I feel like a lot of people were overlooking the second part of the OP's post. The first was that the DA sails' cut gives them an advantage in naval combat, which undermines the design philosophy of the game. The response to that point has been "The sails are widely available, anyone can use them." but the second point was that, because these sails have a clear advantage, it makes any other sails, which do not have this cut, unappealing. So you find persons who've become so adapted to the Dark Adventurer Sails that they can't use anything else. or feel hampered by using something different. You should be able to use whatever sails you want without having to feel like you're hurting yourself to do so. That's point 2, which the response to Point 1 does not address. Either all sails need to be cut the same way, or at least have the option to adjust the cut of your sails.

@d3adst1ck And that argument is entirely valid too. Because I know plenty of people who say they absolutely cannot use the Sunken Sorrow cannons because of hte flared barrel. by their experience and mine, it's a harder cannon to accurately aim. those cosmetic differences DO matter.

@d3adst1ck And I'm sure that a sniper using an iron sight, with enough training and practice, could just be as deadly accurate as a sniper with a proper high zoom scope. Would any professional sniper promote using iron sights seriously? I highly doubt it. Just because you can eventually adapt and accustom yourself to a more difficult point of reference for aiming, doesn't change the fact that it IS more difficult.

Also Your response to Point 2 further up, I highly disagree with. You're saying that playing telephone with your crewmates as a helmsman isn't significant, and maybe it wouldn't be in a situation where you're in the same room. but this is an online game, we rarely play with the person sitting next to us, and you have to account for lag and network latency. If you're relying on crewmates to act as your eyes, the difference CAN be several seconds. however if you can see for yourself, your reaction time typically is going to be a lot faster.

@d3adst1ck Different levels of magnification is pretty similar to different levels of visibility and ease of aiming. Otherwise the broken Crimson Crypt cannon flare wouldn't have been so popular.

Of course there's a delay, dependent on each player's connection speed, and distance. Just because they don't realize it's there, doesn't mean it isn't. The reaction time of being able to see for yourself instead of having to relay on others to communicate information is still enough of a difference to matter. Not to mention that other crew members not having to multitask acting as eyes for the helmsman means they can be more focused on other tasks, and are more likely to succeed as a whole.

@madcazbad
@p0g1f0rc3

You're saying that playing telephone with your crewmates as a helmsman isn't significant

You're not playing telephone, your crewmates say "turn left" and you turn left. They say "go straight" and you go straight. That takes a fraction of a second to communicate. Even then, when chasing someone (the only situation where DA sails can really change anything) its not going to matter whether you turned now or a second ago. The criteria that you have to meet to get a fraction of a second of reaction time is astounding, and still there is no difference in the outcome.

@grumpyw01f said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad
@p0g1f0rc3

You're saying that playing telephone with your crewmates as a helmsman isn't significant

You're not playing telephone, your crewmates say "turn left" and you turn left. They say "go straight" and you go straight. That takes a fraction of a second to communicate. Even then, when chasing someone (the only situation where DA sails can really change anything) its not going to matter whether you turned now or a second ago. The criteria that you have to meet to get a fraction of a second of reaction time is astounding, and still there is no difference in the outcome.

Euhm yes there is and the discussion was about reaction time so ofcourse there is a big difference the turn left and reacting and listening to that is not gonna take 1 second it's gonna take at least 3 seconds. If the helmsman sees this himself he can instantly turn without confirmation. So no you are not right you have a delay in time and that was exactly what my point was about. So again you just confirmed I was right with saying it's giving you delay so thanks for that. If you have this happening 3 times after each other you are talking about 9 / 10 seconds compared to 2 or 3 seconds. And like @p0g1f0rc3 said if someones needs to watch for you they can't do other stuff on the ship so you are losing seconds there too. You still not getting this gives me the confidence to say you are not a PVPer or you're not familiar with PVP. If you think multiple seconds in delay don't matter you don't know high speed level fights.

@d3adst1ck said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

You might want to get an auditory processing test done. 3 seconds to respond to an audio prompt is not normal.

Try this: https://playback.fm/audio-reaction-time

Slow times are going to be 300-400ms+ at the most.

With full turning the wheel? I don't think so and learn to read clearly you don't get what we are saying. We are not talking about audio only, again learn to read. You crewmates are eyes for you so they can not be busy with other things so you lose time there too. So again learn to read.

@d3adst1ck said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

You might want to get an auditory processing test done. 3 seconds to respond to an audio prompt is not normal.

Try this: https://playback.fm/audio-reaction-time

Slow times are going to be 300-400ms+ at the most.

2 of the 3 seconds he is talking about are the teammate actually saying the words to the helmsman. The 1 second is the reaction time.

@alienmagi said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@d3adst1ck said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

You might want to get an auditory processing test done. 3 seconds to respond to an audio prompt is not normal.

Try this: https://playback.fm/audio-reaction-time

Slow times are going to be 300-400ms+ at the most.

2 of the 3 seconds he is talking about are the teammate actually saying the words to the helmsman. The 1 second is the reaction time.

It's hard to keep a cool against people that don't understand normal logic. They actually think making a decision directly by yourself or waiting for a crewmate to talk to you and you confirming it is the same amount of time. I'm not even gonna try anymore everyone is trying to explain it to them but they still don't get it.

@d3adst1ck said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@alienmagi It takes less than 2 seconds to say "turn left" or just "left".

I dont think it does because ping delays it, not to mention people could be talking over each other and not hearing the words, adding way more additional reaction time.

Theres also times you cant be sure that what your crewmate says to do is the correct decision, because the helmsman might see other important factors that contribute to decision making.

Your "eyes" crewmate might not be aware of things like how much your wheel is already turned or what direction the wind is blowing which contributes to more valuable seconds lost and that can also spiral into arguments when everyone is already on edge.

@d3adst1ck said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@madcazbad said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

@d3adst1ck said in Dark Adventurers Sails:

You might want to get an auditory processing test done. 3 seconds to respond to an audio prompt is not normal.

Try this: https://playback.fm/audio-reaction-time

Slow times are going to be 300-400ms+ at the most.

With full turning the wheel? I don't think so and learn to read clearly you don't get what we are saying. We are not talking about audio only, again learn to read. You crewmates are eyes for you so they can not be busy with other things so you lose time there too. So again learn to read.

I can read perfectly well.

reaction time so ofcourse there is a big difference the turn left and reacting and listening to that

Maybe you need to explain yourself better?

Turning the wheel is going to take the same amount of time whether you are going off a visual or audio queue. The reaction time to the instruction is going to be negligible compared to that.

We are gonna make a calculation here yeah for people that still don't get it.

countInSeconds = 0;

Crewmate reacting to the other team turning the ship (Your crewmate could be busy with something else but we don't use this time in the calculation to make it as low as possible) - countInSeconds + 0.4 seconds

countInSeconds = 0.4;

Crewmate telling you on the wheel that the team is turning and you need to go right or left (Your crewmate could be busy with something else but we don't use this time in the calculation to make it as low as possible) - countInSeconds + 1.5 seconds

countInSeconds = 1.9;

You getting the information and reacting to it maybe you are even busy angling your sails (We don't take this in the calculation what could be the case in most situations but we keep it as low as possible) - countInSeconds + 1/1.5 seconds

countInSeconds = 2.9/3.4 seconds

This was the calculation for getting the reaction time for your crewmate telling you and you reacting to him (Not considered that you are trying to confirm if you need to turn what also happens in most cases because maybe they tried to do something else next).

Here the calculation for seeing this yourself on the wheel

countInSeconds = 0;

You on the wheel seeing them turn and reacting to it - 0.4 seconds

countInSeconds = 0.4;

This was the calculation for you reacting to a turn by the other ship.

Now the comparison:

2.9/3.4 - 0.4 = 2.5/3

Total amount of seconds lost when you need to wait for your crewmate: 2.5/3 seconds at least.

Maybe now you will get my point, and get what other people are trying to tell you.