Is Spawn Camping Balanced?

Spawn camping (by which I assume we are talking about the act of camping an enemy ship to deny the enemy the ability to repair and not the toxic camping of repairing ship and camping) is sometimes a required tactic, we will also soon see a new tool that makes boarding easier.

I think as it stands now it’s fine but depending on if the harpoon gun does manage to change the meta then when a player is killed on an enemy ship they shouldn’t be released to the ferry automatically, instead they should wait for soul to rise before the ferry.

That’s just my thoughts though, I’m interested in reading what others have to say :)

Something that has never bothered me as a solo is getting spawn camped.

A loss is a loss, it doesn't matter to me if it's a camp or entirely naval or getting sent to the ferry on an island and losing the loot, etc etc

and that's why it doesn't bother me, because I adapted very early on to not focus on fairness, not focus on being some john wick character in the adventure game, not focus on how others play.

I built my style around my strengths to get to my goals. My goals have been everything from treasure to gold to comms to peaceful gameplay, to rewarding situations, etc.

I'll leave when I feel like leaving, I'll go through the door 20 times when I feel like practicing, I'll get strong enough on naval to where I win some fights sometimes, I'll not take it personal.

I don't even think I've bantered with anyone (unless I know them) in like 3 years during pvp. I developed a style around camping not being an issue and around not adding unnecessary conflict and escalation.

Imo people take it personal, they often escalate and turn it into this big dramatic and negative thing.

A large part of enjoying this game as a solo or any other underdog crew in SoT is to not take it personal and to avoid escalation and negative approaches. Work around the issues, don't fight the issues.

I assume we are talking about the act of camping an enemy ship to deny the enemy the ability to repair and not the toxic camping of repairing ship and camping.

Yes. I was also talking about the act of camping an enemy ship during an hourglass fight, and sailing them out of the arena, instead of using cannons to sink them.

I think as it stands now it’s fine but depending on if the harpoon gun does manage to change the meta then when a player is killed on an enemy ship they shouldn’t be released to the ferry automatically, instead they should wait for soul to rise before the ferry.

A slightly longer respawn if you're killed on an enemy ship is an interesting idea and not one I've seen suggested before. I guess this would be one way to increase the risk of spawn camping?

@knurd9369 I agree. I'm wondering if they made it that way so that sloops could hold their own against larger ships?

@i-marmot-i Thanks. I notice a lot of posts on here of people demanding changes because something happened to them that feels bad, and I don't want to be one of those people. But also I've seen videos from players with much more experience than me, that made very reasonable point that camping is too easy - i.e. given equal levels of skill, the advantage is in favour of the camper as they have time between kills to get their barings, restock food, choose a good location etc. so I wanted to see what everyone else thought.

@capt-kamoba sagte in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?:

I think as it stands now it’s fine but depending on if the harpoon gun does manage to change the meta then when a player is killed on an enemy ship they shouldn’t be released to the ferry automatically, instead they should wait for soul to rise before the ferry.

Doesn't matter, or it even would be a "boarding-buff", because the timer for respawning starts with dying, not with arriving on the ferry...if you instantly go to the ferry you are there longer, if you wait you stay there less time (those few seconds)
So, if you would stay on the ship dead, you can tell your crew about what's going on on deck...

@wolfmanbush I completely agree. Some people get very angry about losing. I try to take the approach of "Talk to the people that attack you, the way you would talk to them if they were sat next to you on your sofa and beating you at Mario Kart". We're playing a game together. It should be a friendly, social activity, regardless of who wins and loses, like playing any other game would be.

My post was less to do with my experiences in the game, and more to do with other posts I'd read on this forum. I keep seeing posts that suggest that players want spawn camping to be easier, or that it should be easier to win fights and sink people through spawn camping alone, without the need for naval combat. Personally I think the naval combat and the skills needed to properly manage your ship, balancing repairs with cannon pressure, stearing, resource management etc. is an important part of what makes this game so unique and interesting, and I wanted to get a general idea of whether I was alone in thinking that.

@eligibleeel6171 said in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?:

@wolfmanbush I completely agree. Some people get very angry about losing. I try to take the approach of "Talk to the people that attack you, the way you would talk to them if they were sat next to you on your sofa and beating you at Mario Kart". We're playing a game together. It should be a friendly, social activity, regardless of who wins and loses, like playing any other game would be.

My post was less to do with my experiences in the game, and more to do with other posts I'd read on this forum. I keep seeing posts that suggest that players want spawn camping to be easier, or that it should be easier to win fights and sink people through spawn camping alone, without the need for naval combat. Personally I think the naval combat and the skills needed to properly manage your ship, balancing repairs with cannon pressure, stearing, resource management etc. is an important part of what makes this game so unique and interesting, and I wanted to get a general idea of whether I was alone in thinking that.

People want Rare to create something for them rather than doing what it takes to create something better for themselves.

That's really where it becomes a long frustrating situation for people.

With the quick swap and the camping and the double guns and this and that.

The skilled and the bigger crews have an advantage, that's never going to change if this game keeps its original foundation. If people prefer naval then they gotta get themselves to the point where the other crew doesn't have as many options.

It's easy to camp me, it's not that difficult to get on my ship, but I put a lot of cannon pressure on and I don't hesitate. I also have a lot of situational awareness and pve experience to where I can include that in my fights.

I don't play their game, they play mine. They might win and and defeat me in my own game but it's my game. I'm not gonna fall for the traps or play how they want me to play.

The only way to get there is to not waste time fired up about how they play or what weapons they use or this or that.

Example: I don't board. I will literally spend 30 minutes putting nothing but cannonball pressure on a ship and not board. That's because that's not my strength or my preference. I will board and likely go to the ferry and they will reset and that's not a good thing.

I don't play to win, I play to enjoy my time and to play how I want to play. People get pretty effective in their styles if that becomes their focus. If people want to naval then they have to earn it and the same for boarding.

Rare can make changes but it won't change much. It'll still be about skill in people's preferences and styles and crew size.

@knurd9369 This is how I feel, or at least, I think naval combat should remain a relevant and required skill. With the way things are at the moment, if you're good enough (which I don't think I am yet), you can do what @WolfManbush says and force them to play your game. (I have even won a few hourglass matches while the enemy has been on my ship spawn camping me. Sometimes the "battle won" banner even comes up while I'm on the ferry of the damned.)

But, just looking through the first few pages of this forum for examples, I can see:

• 6 posts calling for the hourglass arena to shrink over time. - This would make it easier to win by boarding and sailing them out of the arena, reducing the need for naval combat.

• 1 Post calling for the introduction of a hand cannon - so that you can damage the enemy ship while spawn camping them, reducing the need for naval combat.

• 2 posts calling for the introduction of a "wood axe" - So that you can damage the enemy ship while spawn camping them, reducing the need for naval combat.

• 1 post suggesting pineapples should be nerfed - Which I believe would make spawn camping easier as the camper has the luxury of being able to restock between kills. (Speaking from experience, a pocketful of pineapples can be a lifesaver when you're trying to break a spawn camp.)

• 1 post complaining that it's too easy to guard ladders with a sword (or that it's too difficult to board when someone with a sword is guarding the ladder, depending on how you look at it.)

No doubt I would find others if I continued looking. And admittedly I have seen one or two posts in the past suggesting that we should be able to raise ladders, or that boarding should be banned entirely (both of which I also disagree with), but it feels like the majority of posts are calling for rebalance in favour of player to player combat. And, given what I said above about how the skills required for naval combat are a fundamental part of what sets this game apart from others, it feels odd that I seem to be part of a minority that thinks we should keep things as they are.

This is why I wanted to get an idea of how people felt about the balance of the game, without discussing the pros and cons of specific ideas (such as new weapon ideas, or a shrinking hourglass circle).

@knurd9369 said in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?:

It's an unfortunate necessity to secure a sink in many situations.

The reality is that a crews ability to bucket out water is a bit over powered so sinking via naval alone is very difficult.

I think this is intended... Melee combat on a ship is very thematic, it's in every pirate movie from Errol Flynn to Pirates of the Caribbean. What I don't like is how the skill gap is so wide and CQC so effective, boarding is more often used as the very first tactic and not to "secure the sink".

I feel boarding should be harder, especially with the impending harpoon gun. If it has the rarity of the horn, we now more than ever need to be able to roll up the ladders. Boarding should be about securing the sink, not the first step toward sinking.

@a10dr4651 said in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?:

@eligibleeel6171 Another balance issue with boarding currently is some of the counters don't function correctly anymore. When someone boards your ship, a splash sound is supposed to be played, this doesn't always happen and then tools to knock boarders away are not working correctly, the blunderbomb should knock someone off a ladder but quite frequently they regrab meaning you have to use multiple.

The balance is currently in favour of the boarder. Boarding is fine as a method of ship combat but it needs to carry severe risk if that board fails.

This part of people's frustrations is definitely understandable.

Game performance can be rough in these scenarios. Add on that the brig has had op speed for a couple+ years and what leads up to the camp can be pretty frustrating.

Naval reg used to not really be a thing and now it's way more common to see chains not register, cannonballs not do damage, one balls not register, etc.

getting blundered by a boarder that just ate 4 or 5 blunderbombs can be pretty frustrating.

Audio issues are pretty common.

Some experience more/less issues than others but game performance can be quite unpleasant as the underdog in fights.

@knurd9369

I think we can agree to disagree on whether firebombs are effective or not, but I would absolutely agree that early boarding needs to be more punishing.

I liked the idea of not being able to release your spirit on an enemy ship, but that's just another "make respawn take longer" reaction. I also liked the idea that if you get respawned by an enemy on their ship, you get locked in their brig for 10-30 seconds, but that doesn't punish early boarding it punishes early boarding failures.

@knurd9369 said in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?:

@lordqulex said in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?

I feel boarding should be harder, especially with the impending harpoon gun. If it has the rarity of the horn, we now more than ever need to be able to roll up the ladders. Boarding should be about securing the sink, not the first step toward sinking.

I don't think that rolling up the ladders is the answer, because it tips things too heavily in favor of defenders. (I recognize the harpoon gun could tip this equation, so for now I'm sticking to what is currently available)

Rather, I'd like to see early boarding become a more risky tactic somehow.

I'm not entirely sure how, but for example, if bucketing is made a little less effective, then an early boarding puts the attacking ship at risk. (But this also means firebombs and spawn camping may remain as effective as it is now, so maybe this isn't the solution...this balancing stuff is tricky!)

I'd like to see multiple traps added to the game. If people can gather supps to create traps for their ship then boarding becomes more interesting and it doesn't just penalize someone for trying to board.

Traps focusing more on stun or slow down effects which becomes a risk to the boarder.

More fun, more balanced, more interesting, without being a punishment in design.

A friend of mine used to say "in UX, don't punish unintended behavior, reward intended behavior."

Maybe instead of punishing early boards we need to encourage staying on your ship. In Helldivers 2, there are some weapons that benefit from "team reload." That is, you fire faster when someone else is there helping you reload. The sloop and the brigantine have more crew than cannons, so maybe if the helmsman can make reloading faster on a cannon by locking onto it's side and succeeding in some mini-game or something, it would discourage crew from yeeting over first thing?

@a10dr4651 While I'm generally opposed to the "Fix all bugs before you change anything" approach, I do think bugs like silent boarding, and being able to blunderbomb people off ladders, which represent a significant rebalance in themselves, should be fixed before we discuss if and what rebalancing is needed.

The timer for respawning starts with dying, not with arriving on the ferry...if you instantly go to the ferry you are there longer, if you wait you stay there less time (those few seconds)

@Schwammlgott, are you sure about this? I tested it last night. Killing myself twice and timing from the moment I died to the moment the ferry door opened to let me into the portal. When I tapped the respawn button immediately, it was 10 seconds shorter, than when I left my soul to rise. Have I misunderstood what you or @capt-kamoba were saying?

@eligibleeel6171 sagte in Is Spawn Camping Balanced?:

The timer for respawning starts with dying, not with arriving on the ferry...if you instantly go to the ferry you are there longer, if you wait you stay there less time (those few seconds)

@Schwammlgott, are you sure about this. I tested it last night. Killing myself twice and timing from the moment I died to the moment the ferry door opened to let me into the portal. When I tapped the respawn button immediately, it was 10 seconds shorter, than when I left my soul to rise.

If that's true, then it has been changed...it was that way, when reviving was introduced, never tested this again...I can just imagine it has been changed when they made different spawn timers depending on crew size, I guess...