I dont understand the decisions made

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    Im usually not one to complain but as someone who plays and enjoys this game a lot i am getting to a point where im genuinely frustrated.
    Hitreg, rubberbanding and general issues aside, all the recent patches brought new, honestly gamebreaking, problems.

    Wanted to grind during legends week? Endless pve spawns everywhere you go

    Wanted to grind during community weekend? Mouse and keyboard on xbox dont work, you cant shoot out of cannons reliably and no skull of destiny

    Now you want to just casually play the game? Open crew is broken
    I dont know how many people besides me even play open crew regularly, but i would guess most casuals do so

    • The workaround gave me one open crew member over the course of hours

    Rare cares about accessibility, yet everything thats happening makes it incredibly difficult to enjoy or even play the game at all.

    With all issues present, rare decides to remove quickswap, what, if the intention behind it is actually just to level the field between veterans and new players, will literally not change anything.
    Most new players sink without even getting boarded.

    The biggest skill in this game is awareness and knowing what to do in which situation, if you are good with that your weapon loadout almost doesnt matter. New players will always struggle with that sort of decision making and loose because of that not because they got two tapped twice.

    The time to kill argument also doesnt make sense as one blunders are a thing which leave an unaware player with even less reaction time than having to hit two shots in succession with the risk of the other person randomly moving.

    Rare is trying to listen to their casual player base with that removal.
    Yet they tried everything they could to force pvpers and pvers into the same servers.
    Remove arena, remove custom servers on insiders, integrate hourglass into the open world.
    We take all the spaces where pvpers were grouped together and then act surprised that the new players are loosing to them?

    Which ok its a sandbox and having skillbased servers would be boring, as the interaction with players of different skilllevels is a big part of the experience.
    And i personally learned most in the beginning by running into random more experienced crews.
    Yes i also got absolutely destroyed (still do) but the game is not even close to as toxic as everyone is saying, if you yourself dont get angry at everyone obviously.
    Watch stream highlights of any game and the way those streamers/players talk to each other would get you banned on sot.

    • Ive heard a lot of newer players complain about the skillbased matchmaking, which seems to be a big factor of frustration and i get it, fighting someone whos clearly better isnt fun. For both sides, sweaty players, at least the majority, prefer sweaty fights and dont enjoy sinking players with 2 days played. But blaming the good players for that doesnt seem like a solution and argueing that the newer players would stand a chance in these fights if the others couldnt quickswap is just ridiculous.

    Anyways i am not even trying to convince anyone to leave quickswap in, all im saying is it wont have any of the effects they are aiming for but instead mess with og players and the competitive scene once again and for no reason.

    It also just decreases the amount of time people can/have to put into the game, trying to improve their mechanics and skillset (double gunning is a skill, but so is knowing how to fight it, baiting blunders before engaging and so on)
    Having a skill ceiling in form of different combatscenarios you are required to learn is a good thing, it adds to the longevity of a game, which in an environment that doesnt change much, like sot, is very important and the reason why there are people with 100-350 days played.

    If you are an experienced player and refuse to learn quickswitch/how to fight it you are putting in less effort and thought and it is absolutely justified tht someone who puts that in will beat you.
    And nothing will change about that fact after the removal, if you dont try to improve/adjust you will keep loosing against players that do so and you will keep blaming game mechanics for it instead of figuring out what you couldve done differently.

    And people who claim double gunning wouldnt take skill, im excited to see their reaction when combat turns into nothing but getting one blundered and blunderbomb spammed (where for some reason, it is completely fine to just spam 5 of them).

    The biggest irony of it all, we nerf a core pvp mechanic the moment we introduce pve servers.
    The players that have such a big problem with dying in a pirate videogame dont have to do so anymore, but we still need to protect them from those who actually enjoy playing the game?

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  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    Old exploits die hard.

    They also need to patch out the sword lunge delay cancel exploit where if a player misses a target with a sword lunge they can bypass the delay by interacting with a ship part such as a cannon, ladder, wheel etc.

    And they should strongly consider removing the ability to jump when charging a sword lunge even if the player has blocked before charging the lunge. Because jumping at the right time during a lunge can greatly extend the range of the attack.

    It’s more about removing cheese and exploits. The skill gap between casual and veteran players will continue to be massive even with these changes.

    Anybody who continues on and on about how all their fun from playing SoT comes from the ability to quick swap their guns is just being ridiculously dramatic for no reason.

    The blunderbuss will continue to be the most overpowered gun in the game as it retains its ability to one shot and do instantaneous knockback while reloading just as fast as the flintlock.

    And the eye of reach will still be able to be aimed down sights in 0.1 seconds enabling those with a center dot on their monitor to perform perfect quick scopes with ease.

    Two guns has always been overpowered versus using the sword if hit registration is working and if the double gunner can hit their shots.

    Not only this but the fact that Rare has completely ruined the food economy in the game making pineapples super common at sea forts, regular forts and buyable at the shipwright. Pineapples make the sword useless and Rare and their massive brains do not care about it. They don’t care that pineapples are supposed to be rare.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    What goes around comes around

    many of the people that are upset over quick swap changes were the ones that were constantly trying to get "tools not rules" removed from the environment.

    Many wanted the red sea changed, the anchor changed, regularly demanding nerfs to others for their playstyle.

    Stuff like the topic is necessary when cherry picking because up until recently they were heavily leaning into catering to one group's demands at a sacrifice to the experience of others.

    The main difference here is that this was clearly not intended and the other things I listed never were that clear up until the point of changing (and inconsistent messaging along the way) Red sea and anchor were always considered tools not rules up until the change.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork
    You see i dont think fun mechanics like swordlunge, cancelling the animation of the lunge or quickswapping should be removed. As they are fun, can literally be done by anyone and give room to be more creative.
    Yet they are not going to make you win if you arent also smart and know when and how to use or avoid them.
    Ill say it again gamesense and awareness is what matters most in this game and the more you reduce combatoptions the less thinking is required and gameplay will get stale and boring.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @offtherec

    Just because an exploit is fun doesn’t mean it should exist in the game.

    Balance is important in a game especially when your motto is a day 1 player and a day 1000 player are supposed to be equal in everything but experience.

    In order for that to be true there must not be any secret “tech” as they call it now.

    We don’t need the ability to cancel the intended delay for missing a sword lunge.

    We don’t need the ability to jump right as we begin a sword lunge to more than double it’s range.

    We don’t need the ability to skip an intended animation when swapping weapons to fire our secondary weapon faster than intended.

    We don’t need the ability to skip an intended animation when bucketing water out of our ship to bucket faster than intended.

    We don’t need the ability to stack a ton of loot on our capstan so other crews have a more difficult time interacting with it.

    It’s all just exploit cheese.

    Learn to beat other crews with just skill and no secret “tech”.

    Everything is going to be okay. Actually it’s going to be better. The more level the playing field the absolute better for the health of the game.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @wolfmanbush

    Not sure what you are trying to say in the first part, but rare definetely hastn been catering their pvp/longterm playerbase in a while.

    My whole point is, quickswitch is not whats wrong with the game and removing it wont magically make everything good and suddenly everyone only wins.

    And with this happening while people actually get their own servers, it seems the whole direction this game is going is leading away from pvp which is legit sad from the perspective of someone who enjoys it, what a lot of people do.

  • M97yawadiar
    Seafarer
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork removing sword lunge is a bad idea.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @m97yawadiar

    Nobody said to remove sword lunge.

    And nobody said to change the resistance of water meaning if you charge a sword lunge on the railing of a ship or at the waters edge you can still lunge through the water as a tool.

    What I said was prevent players from jumping during a sword lunge because it greatly extends the range of the attack.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @offtherec said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @wolfmanbush

    Not sure what you are trying to say in the first part, but rare definetely hastn been catering their pvp/longterm playerbase in a while.

    My whole point is, quickswitch is not whats wrong with the game and removing it wont magically make everything good and suddenly everyone only wins.

    And with this happening while people actually get their own servers, it seems the whole direction this game is going is leading away from pvp which is legit sad from the perspective of someone who enjoys it, what a lot of people do.

    actually they have a long history of doing that (catering to long term players)

    safer seas was brought on by people getting run out of here by long term players, specifically because all along the way they catered to long term players that wanted quick action, quick steals, and to have their win conditions handed to them. Heavily catered to what content creators and their communities were asking for when talking risk/reward and combat.

    This game has years of history with a worsening organic environment (pre-season 8) for risk/reward specifically because of serving what long term players that leaned pvp wanted.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork
    Yes you might be right these things are not “needed” but they sure make the combat more versatile and actually fun.
    Its not secret tech its pressing one maybe two additional buttons, if you think thats unfair, dark knowledge then i dont know.
    Learning mechanics and how to fight them is skill.
    Limiting yourself to rules what should be used and demanding every one to fight the way you want is everything but not skill.
    If you dont want to learn how a game fully works ok but then dont blame others for actually doing so.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @offtherec

    It’s supposed to be a silly pirate game.

    They (Rare) really need to reduce the skill required to be effective on cannons at medium range next.

    Cannons are ridiculously hard to get good at because of the slow velocity and the drop.

    It takes many hours of firing cannons to get decent at medium range cannons.

    If cannonballs traveled slightly faster and dropped less as they flew through the air then players would have to aim their cannons less high in the air which for most players is more intuitive.

    Most players don’t want to raise their cannons up high enough to where the most of the target ship is blocked from view. It takes a while for them to learn that they need to in fact raise that cannon up higher than expected to hit medium to long range shots.

    I hope somebody at Rare truly understands what the game needs. Sea of Thieves needs to attract all gamers as the best pirate game available to play period. Whether they love or hate PvP we want everyone to fall in love with Sea of Thieves.

    And my gosh please please please add new world events. Like one as a buffed sunken treasury world event. Like one as a buffed sea fort world event. And like something else at molten sands fortress. And like we need them like as soon as possible. We desperately need new world events to spice up the world event rotation. Please Rare.

  • RetrogradeSeal
    Marauder

    @offtherec said in [I dont understand the decisions made](/community/forums/post/1845849

    If you dont want to learn how a game fully works ok but then dont blame others for actually doing so.

    It’s not how the game was intended to work. We shouldn’t have been learning it in the first place

  • Merlin MAV K
    Ship Mate

    It's misguided to believe that the changes to double gunning (actually corrections) are to even the ground between new and experienced players. It's more something that a slice of players increasingly exploited over time and that was very likely never intended, certainly not as a fundamental part of PVP encounters.

  • SweetSandMan
    Lord
    Insider

    @offtherec said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    The biggest irony of it all, we nerf a core pvp mechanic the moment we introduce pve servers.

    Nah...the biggest irony of it all is something you hinted at yourself.

    Ones ability (or lack thereof) to quickswap isn't going to alter the outcome of any given battle.

    The people that are winning or losing with the exploit in place today will be the same people winning or losing after it's removed.

    Whining about it being removed for the purposes of "skill gap" is pointless because the only fights where it might have even made the tiniest difference were the fights against other quick swappers...and everyone is going to be on the same playing field after the patch...so...null.

    The people complaining about its existence are still going to win/lose the same fights they do today...the people complaining about it being removed are still going to win/lose the same fights they do today.

    _

    Hot Take (or lukewarm maybe)...

    The people that were vocal about it being removed weren't actually mad about quick swapping...they're mad about double gunning...or they're mad about general CQC in SOT. They're now just going to get way more vocal about double gunning needing to be removed and how this game desperately needs retractable ladders.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork sagte in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @offtherec

    It’s supposed to be a silly pirate game.

    They (Rare) really need to reduce the skill required to be effective on cannons at medium range next.

    Cannons are ridiculously hard to get good at because of the slow velocity and the drop.

    It takes many hours of firing cannons to get decent at medium range cannons.

    If cannonballs traveled slightly faster and dropped less as they flew through the air then players would have to aim their cannons less high in the air which for most players is more intuitive.

    Most players don’t want to raise their cannons up high enough to where the most of the target ship is blocked from view. It takes a while for them to learn that they need to in fact raise that cannon up higher than expected to hit medium to long range shots.

    I hope somebody at Rare truly understands what the game needs. Sea of Thieves needs to attract all gamers as the best pirate game available to play period. Whether they love or hate PvP we want everyone to fall in love with Sea of Thieves.

    At this point i feel like you are baiting.
    Werent you talking about skill a second ago? Now you are demanding that they make cannons easier?
    Literally what i said in my og post on why everyone that claims they are loosing to double gun actually just refuses to learn and improve to instead blame game mechanics.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @offtherec

    It’s that instant defense mechanism of putting up walls when somebody else suggests further breaking down of the massive skill gap between vets and noobs. Completely understandable.

    But what I don’t get is how the vets enjoy slaying the helpless noobs that usually just try to run away for as long as possible with very little treasure on board. To me that just isn’t healthy for anyone, not the hunters or the hunted. Bad experience all around.

    That’s why it’s so important to ensure the crews on the high seas actually enjoy PvP.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @sweetsandman said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @offtherec said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    The people that were vocal about it being removed weren't actually mad about quick swapping...they're mad about double gunning...or they're mad about general CQC in SOT. They're now just going to get way more vocal about double gunning needing to be removed and how this game desperately needs retractable ladders.

    Or just make the blunderbuss take longer to reload and make the eye of reach take longer to ads.

    And make water pressure from hull damage a threat for all crew sizes (staring directly at you duo sloops). Make the bucket slightly less effective. Allow holes in ships to actually sink ships without requiring most or all of the enemy crew to be off the ship, heavily distracted from bilging or dead in order to secure a sink.

  • SweetSandMan
    Lord
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    The people that were vocal about it being removed weren't actually mad about quick swapping...they're mad about double gunning...or they're mad about general CQC in SOT. They're now just going to get way more vocal about double gunning needing to be removed and how this game desperately needs retractable ladders.

    Or just make the blunderbuss take longer to reload and make the eye of reach take longer to ads.

    And make water pressure from hull damage a threat for all crew sizes (staring directly at you duo sloops). Make the bucket slightly less effective. Allow holes in ships to actually sink ships without requiring most or all of the enemy crew to be off the ship, heavily distracted from bilging or dead in order to secure a sink.

    Meh...probably a discussion for a different thread...but I don't think any changes to defense are what the game needs.

    I'm in the camp that believes this game needs new things to make offense more engaging. Give us different cannonball variants, undo the nerfs to cursed balls and blunderbombs, give us more variety of cursed balls, give us more variety of throwables that can be used as projectiles.

    A defensive nerf doesn't shake anything up or make naval combat any more exciting than it is today. Just because you nerf defense doesn't mean naval combat is suddenly going to become any more appealing to those that prefer boarding. Not everyone wants to have every single victory (or loss) be defined by a death spiral.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @sweetsandman

    I’m all for new cannonball types and chase cannons or harpoons and anything new.

    All I’m saying is that a duo sloop can survive having just about every hole in their sloop so long as both bucket to get the water out and then one reps holes while the other buckets.

    I’m sorry but every ship should be sinkable from naval combat alone if you put enough holes in a ship.

    All ships besides the galleon seem to be too tanky in terms of water pressure from hull damage being a threat. Duo sloop is the absolute most broken of them all because the bucket is currently balanced for solos and the sloop had changes to make it fill the lower deck more slowly with water.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork sagte in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @offtherec

    It’s that instant defense mechanism of putting up walls when somebody else suggests further breaking down of the massive skill gap between vets and noobs. Completely understandable.

    But what I don’t get is how the vets enjoy slaying the helpless noobs that usually just try to run away for as long as possible with very little treasure on board. To me that just isn’t healthy for anyone, not the hunters or the hunted. Bad experience all around.

    That’s why it’s so important to ensure the crews on the high seas actually enjoy PvP.

    Im not putting up walls, all the changes you think would help would do the opposite.
    When you make things easier in general youll also make things easier for experienced players.
    So theyll one ball you even easier.

    As i said in my post, good players rarely want to have a boring fight so they prefer having a good opponnent.

    People chasing noobships for a castaways chest are usually not very experienced themself and still learning.

    The times ive met a good crew outside of hourglass in the past months is close to 0.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @offtherec

    Yep that’s what happens when you force all players on to PvP servers you find it harder to find a challenging opponent because a significant portion of the players you encounter don’t want to fight you.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork sagte in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @offtherec

    Yep that’s what happens when you force all players on to PvP servers you find it harder to find a challenging opponent because a significant portion of the players you encounter don’t want to fight you.

    Yup another thing i mentioned as a problem in my og post, you dont really seem like you read that.

    Im all for safer seas, even think they should make it more viable for actually new players cause starting with that 30% will seem very frustrating.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @offtherec

    That’s not my biggest fear.

    Safer seas with only one crew in the world may not be as interesting or as fun as an adventure mode clone meaning 6 crews on a server with PvP disabled and totally separate progression.

    Like I’m approaching 5k hours in SoT. Safer seas does not appeal to me at all. I don’t want to be the only crew on the seas. I don’t want to be penalized for choosing a PvE only session. And if progression was totally separate between the high seas and safer seas that means that even I would be a swabbie in safer seas needing to build my reputation up again which is something I would enjoy doing in a cooperative setting working with other crews rather than attacking them.

    There’s just so much potential to make a magical cooperative pirate experience in the sandbox if they simply open their minds.

  • SweetSandMan
    Lord
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @sweetsandman

    I’m all for new cannonball types and chase cannons or harpoons and anything new.

    All I’m saying is that a duo sloop can survive having just about every hole in their sloop so long as both bucket to get the water out and then one reps holes while the other buckets.

    I’m sorry but every ship should be sinkable from naval combat alone if you put enough holes in a ship.

    All ships besides the galleon seem to be too tanky in terms of water pressure from hull damage being a threat. Duo sloop is the absolute most broken of them all because the bucket is currently balanced for solos and the sloop had changes to make it fill the lower deck more slowly with water.

    While I do agree with you about the tankyness of the sloop and brig (especially the brig), addressing it would largely be viewed as a boarding nerf and an attempt to deter those that enjoy CQC. Whether that's true or not is a matter of opinion. I don't feel like the tankyness can be addressed without simultaneously introducing some new offense mechanics to shake the game up.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @unstoppabledork sword lunge was acknowlaged from times of beta. It's feature based on glith that Rare embrace.

    Can't say that is same like quick bucket that gived me allmost unsikable sloop.

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @ghutar

    It’s not sword lunge though that’s in question it’s jumping just before a sword lunge begins to extend the range of the attack. It doubles it.

    When I watch someone like boxyfresh use a sword he constantly cancels the delay for missing a lunge and he also jumps during lunges to extend the range of the attack.

    The point is good players will always use every little advantage they can to win and it’s up to the devs to actually remove these little advantages if they want the experience to be fair for people who either don’t know about the exploits or don’t choose to use them.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @unstoppabledork i mean that jump lunging you far away (especialy giving speed when hiting a water) was allwayes ok part of game.

    But canceling eny sword lunge penalty for misshiting, canceling it mid animation should be patched away.

  • Lleorb
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    @unstoppabledork If they remove the double gun, ok, remove the flying dash, but currently it is the only mechanic that can be used to counter a double gun, using the surprise dash from a long distance is what usually works.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork
    None of these mechanics guarantee you to win a fight though it just makes fights more interesting, limiting combat more and more is not the way.

    The mechanics should all stay as everyone can do them and a vast majority of players enjoys them (talking about lunge and quickswapping both here)

  • UnstoppableDork
    Sailor

    @offtherec

    Maybe they don’t guarantee a win but they can provide an advantage to people who use them. How big of an advantage is subject to debate but one thing for sure is that x-bucketing was absolutely broken and enabled one bilge to keep up a ship with a crazy amount of damage and thank ___ that exploit was patched.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @unstoppabledork
    Yes they give you an advantage, which is not a guaranteed win.

    Its annoying for people who dont know these mechanics but others will teach them to you within the first sessions.

    If you know about them and choose to ignore them, you are nerfing yourself and cant complain if others choose to progress their mechanics in a cosmetic based game where its the only thing you can do after a certain amount of playtime.

  • Europa4033
    Commander
    Insider

    @offtherec said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @wolfmanbush

    Not sure what you are trying to say in the first part, but rare definetely hastn been catering their pvp/longterm playerbase in a while.

    My whole point is, quickswitch is not whats wrong with the game and removing it wont magically make everything good and suddenly everyone only wins.

    And with this happening while people actually get their own servers, it seems the whole direction this game is going is leading away from pvp which is legit sad from the perspective of someone who enjoys it, what a lot of people do.

    "Leading people away from pvp"?? Did you see their announcement of a new pvp voyage? If you also happen to enjoy pvp as much as I do, you know that killing and sinking new players is not enjoyable and a complete waste of time (probably to both parties). Safer Seas is just an extension of the Maiden Voyage, so newer players can get a better feel for the game, instead of "fix your mast, collect your weapons, good luck out there!" Wish Safer Seas were an option when I first started playing, as the amount of frustration I felt was almost enough to make me quit.

    With Safer Seas, instead of you coming up to that new player that has no idea what they're doing, sinking them in 5 seconds, that player will be on the new server, and you'll face an experienced player instead. Win/win in my book.

  • a10dr4651
    Commander
    Insider

    The current combat is already heavily reliant on the blunderbuss. I actually think we may see a resurgence of the pistol. It will now have one of the quickest TTK's.

  • offtherec
    Marauder
    Insider

    @europa4033
    Literally said in my post that most good players want good fights, people here really dont read what they are commenting on.

    The new voyage is the first “pvp content” since Hourglass, so about a year?

    No new cosmetic for hourglass either since then.

    No way to create servers for scrims/tournaments or tdms unless you are a partner.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @offtherec said in I dont understand the decisions made:

    @europa4033
    Literally said in my post that most good players want good fights, people here really dont read what they are commenting on.

    The new voyage is the first “pvp content” since Hourglass, so about a year?

    Hourglass was introduced in Season 8, we're now in Season 9 - which was QoL mainly plus the Tall Tales I guess.
    Yes, it's been almost 11 months now, due to the length of Season 9.

    Some might argue that having the Chest of Fortune appear in FoF did spice up the servers.

    No new cosmetic for hourglass either since then.

    No way to create servers for scrims/tournaments or tdms unless you are a partner.

    IMO they should have gone with bare custom servers open to the public instead of Safer Seas (as you can also sail with one ship on a custom server). No issue with people using exploits on custom servers as long as it's not possible on Adventure servers.

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