@galactic-geek Double gun was only meta if you had good aim. The amount of people that use double gun always has been a vast minority. No matter what they do, double gun always will be the meta for people with good aim.
Cutlass Combat
@galactic-geek That's all well and good but the fact of the matter is you don't need to be good and know all these things about sword to be good with it, you can just spam M1 and sword lord and I think that's what the OP is getting at.
There are some very good sword users out there who have probably learned all there is to know about the sword and they will of course do better than the average M1 spammer, but in my opinion 90% of the time it doesn't really matter as the entry level spam is already good enough.
There should make changes that shift the effectiveness towards the skilled end of the spectrum, so that skilled players will be rewarded even more for their efforts whilst the spammers will be less powerful. How to do that I don't know, I'm not a games designer.
@galactic-geek said in Cutlass Combat:
@kommodoreyenser said in Cutlass Combat:
The ONLY thing missing to balance out the sword and make it skillful to use again is to bring back the miss penalty it used to have. No other changes needed. Good players will still slay with the sword while new players will need to learn not to spam M1, when to block, when to switch to another weapon, etc.
Bring it back? It never left! It was only reduced.
I was referring to the movement penalty on a miss not the swing time penalty. From what I can remember and from the patch notes this was removed in 1.4.3. I know there was also a swing time penalty where players started swinging at the ground or walls which at some point got completely removed but I honestly figure slowing their movement works well enough to get some distance from 2-3 player sword spamming squads of new sailors. This was removed at a time when the sword was at a bad place but I honestly think it could balance it back out considering how easily and quick the time to death is when facing 2-3 of these right now.
Patch notes from 1.4.3 - “Fluid Swordplay – Missing a cutlass swing no longer slows down player movement, ensuring a more fluid swordplay experience.”
@jctc758 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek Double gun was only meta if you had good aim. The amount of people that use double gun always has been a vast minority. No matter what they do, double gun always will be the meta for people with good aim.
If you only had good aim? Aiming isn't very hard in this game, particularly if you increase your sensitivity settings, which most FPS-experienced pirates likely do.
As for the DGers being in the vast minority, this was true once upon a time, but then the game's popularity exploded with a streamer named Summit1g, and he figured out a particular exploit. From then on, and up until the recent sword updates, it ruled supreme in the hands of 3 out of every 4 pirates by my reckoning. Now, all of those pirates who got used to it are crying because they are struggling to adapt now that the sword is finally stronger, and more balanced, than it ever has been before.
@octopus-lime said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek That's all well and good but the fact of the matter is you don't need to be good and know all these things about sword to be good with it, you can just spam M1 and sword lord and I think that's what the OP is getting at.
Combat is not just about offense though - it's a 2-way street. The defense needs to know how to actually defend or escape. Those who don't, fail against such a weak tactic. Yes, charging up to and comboing your opponent can work, but against any experienced pirate worth their salt, you'd just be dead in the water.
There are some very good sword users out there who have probably learned all there is to know about the sword and they will of course do better than the average M1 spammer, but in my opinion 90% of the time it doesn't really matter as the entry level spam is already good enough.
Again, that is entirely dependent on who they are facing - the context of the whole picture matters.
There should make changes that shift the effectiveness towards the skilled end of the spectrum, so that skilled players will be rewarded even more for their efforts whilst the spammers will be less powerful.
This is already the case - the only problem is that the game has done a poor job of educating pirates due to its exploratory nature - the developers want to leave some things left unsaid so there's still something that you can learn.
@closinghare208 said in Cutlass Combat:
@fleeblorp i like it the way it is but they need to do something about the spamalot
No they don't. Pirates on the defense just need to learn how to defend and/or escape. There's numerous ways to do it. They can start by moving away from the attacking sword-user.
@kommodoreyenser ah, yes, the movement penalty - that was specifically removed because it allowed gun-users to always keep a step ahead of sword-using pirates. When already at range, which was most of the time, it gave them a significant advantage. Since its removal, and especially after subsequent sword updates, the sword has become far more viable.
I'm not sure if re-adding the movement penalty is the way to go. That doesn't necessarily stop spam, it just slows down a sword user if they are chasing someone. If you're getting spam attacked, you're likely in close quarters already and this won't change anything.
I would increase the range that blocking protects from attacks and also reduce the time between starting a swing and the actual attack. A big reason why people spam the attack button is because there is a huge delay, which tricks your brain into thinking you haven't attacked and you keep clicking the attack button.
@galactic-geek said in Cutlass Combat:
@sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
Sword also has a 360 degree radiusIt does not. It's got a wide-arcing swing, yes, but it's not 360°. You can test this by having an ally stand in front of you, but slightly off direct center, and then facing directly away from you. I have tested this myself.
Do you not remember me literally sending you proof the other day oml
@jollyolsteamed said in Cutlass Combat:
@sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
@fleeblorp said in Cutlass Combat:
I really wish double gunners stopped acting like they're the pinnacle of skill and any cutlass user is a naive simpleton who knows nothing about aiming.
My whole time playing arena on sot (nearly everyday since January) I’ve only ran into about 4 players who could actually consistently land shots excluding a blunderbus so take that as you will
consistensy does NOT dictate skill
Aaaaaand I’m not even gonna argue in this thread anymore
@galactic-geek sagte in Cutlass Combat:
@kommodoreyenser ah, yes, the movement penalty - that was specifically removed because it allowed gun-users to always keep a step ahead of sword-using pirates. When already at range, which was most of the time, it gave them a significant advantage. Since its removal, and especially after subsequent sword updates, the sword has become far more viable.
The movement penalty only allowed DGers to stay a step ahead if they kept missing their swings.
I see on your posts a lot of stuff like "a Dger can just move out of the way if he encounters a sword spammer - spaming is therefore no problem"
So then back to the movement penalty - wouldn't it be also okay to bring it back, since you could just only swing when you are in hiting range, so you don't get slowed?
@sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
@jollyolsteamed said in Cutlass Combat:
@sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
@fleeblorp said in Cutlass Combat:
I really wish double gunners stopped acting like they're the pinnacle of skill and any cutlass user is a naive simpleton who knows nothing about aiming.
My whole time playing arena on sot (nearly everyday since January) I’ve only ran into about 4 players who could actually consistently land shots excluding a blunderbus so take that as you will
consistensy does NOT dictate skill
Aaaaaand I’m not even gonna argue in this thread anymore
good 👍
@sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek said in Cutlass Combat:
@sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
Sword also has a 360 degree radiusIt does not. It's got a wide-arcing swing, yes, but it's not 360°. You can test this by having an ally stand in front of you, but slightly off direct center, and then facing directly away from you. I have tested this myself.
Do you not remember me literally sending you proof the other day oml
I do. I also remember testing it again after the fact, and getting different results. This leads me to believe that what you experienced was some sort of fluke, bug, lag, exploit, hit-reg issue, or otherwise isolated incident.
@insaiity said:
The movement penalty only allowed DGers to stay a step ahead if they kept missing their swings.
Careful with your phrasing - last time I checked, DGers couldn't swing anything. 😅
@insaiity said:
So then back to the movement penalty - wouldn't it be also okay to bring it back, since you could just only swing when you are in hiting range, so you don't get slowed?There's no need, as it's balanced right now - if you're running 2 guns, it's up to you to keep your distance unless you're a surefire shot or have a blunderbuss equipped (or preferably both).
If you only had good aim?
Don't try to be funny by nitpicking every single little grammar error that I make. If you have good aim.
Aiming isn't very hard in this game.
Are you sure about that. Most people find it impossible to hit shots so they just go around sword spamming like a moron since they are not bothered to try to get good aim.@galactic-geek said in Cutlass Combat:
@jctc758 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek Double gun was only meta if you had good aim. The amount of people that use double gun always has been a vast minority. No matter what they do, double gun always will be the meta for people with good aim.
If you only had good aim? Aiming isn't very hard in this game,
Don't try to be funny by nitpicking every single grammatical error that I make. I meant to say if you have good aim.
Aiming is not very hard!?!??!?! Your acting like everybody practically has aimbot. 99% of people I find cannot hit a shot since they are terrible so they just go around sword spamming like a moron.
@sherpa725
@galactic-geek said:I also remember testing it again after the fact, and getting different results. This leads me to believe that what you experienced was some sort of fluke, bug, lag, exploit, hit-reg issue, or otherwise isolated incident.
I was actually able to reproduce this easily. Once in arena and once in adventure. I have the adventure one clipped, and I'd be more than happy to share.
@Galactic-Geek I was curious if you recorded your test, and if you'd be willing to share it.
May I add you? I have a friend who regularly runs alliance servers. I'd be happy to test it a third time, with you present.
If the damage arc isn't 360, it is incredibly close to it.
@jctc758
Aiming isn't very hard in this game.
Are you sure about that. Most people find it impossible to hit shots so they just go around sword spamming like a moron since they are not bothered to try to get good aim.I agree, aiming is just as hard/easy as any other game, the only difference is there is no aimbot, I mean aim assist for controller players and you can ads when in the air.
@jctc758 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek said in Cutlass Combat:
@jctc758 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek Double gun was only meta if you had good aim. The amount of people that use double gun always has been a vast minority. No matter what they do, double gun always will be the meta for people with good aim.
If you only had good aim? Aiming isn't very hard in this game,
Don't try to be funny by nitpicking every single grammatical error that I make. I meant to say if you have good aim.
Aiming is not very hard!?!??!?! Your acting like everybody practically has aimbot. 99% of people I find cannot hit a shot since they are terrible so they just go around sword spamming like a moron.
I wasn't making fun of you. All I did was quote you verbatim. Don't call sword-users morons. If what they're doing works, that's not a weakness of theirs.
@theblackbellamy said:
@Galactic-Geek I was curious if you recorded your test...
I didn't because my network is absolutely terrible and takes a long time to upload clips. Believe me, though, I would if I could. Thankfully, my family is looking into potentially better options. That said, I do find it interesting that I don't get hit by these supposed 360° attacks despite my network shortcomings.
...If the damage arc isn't 360, it is incredibly close to it.
Hence why I said it had a wide swing. I had amended my response from our earlier encounter.
1: stay far away from sword users
They can move, it's not like they're planted into the ground.
2: make use of blunder or blunder bombs to throw off the sword user
Blunderbombs can damage my crew if I'm boarding and I dislike using the blunderbuss.
Not a terrible idea but it has its downsides.3: make sure your clear when you fire
I... don't know what this is supposed to mean.
tbh i don't enjoy double gunning because there was literally no reason to run anything else
because double gunners could previously tank the sword hits easily shooting people
i think your just so unused to facing sword users especially when the sword has had a buff so you don't know how to counter
My issue isn't being used to fighting sword users, it's just that the level of spam that can come from them can be overwhelming at times.
@closinghare208 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek ah but you forgot how i like to eat spamalot
Hopefully with a block, I hope. 😅
@galactic-geek said in Cutlass Combat:
@closinghare208 said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek ah but you forgot how i like to eat spamalot
Hopefully with a block, I hope. 😅
yes
@galactic-geek sagte in Cutlass Combat:
@insaiity said:
So then back to the movement penalty - wouldn't it be also okay to bring it back, since you could just only swing when you are in hiting range, so you don't get slowed?There's no need, as it's balanced right now - if you're running 2 guns, it's up to you to keep your distance unless you're a surefire shot or have a blunderbuss equipped (or preferably both).
Well you always say to DGers just keep your distance it's up to you. The same goes for swordspamers, they should not swing when they won't hit.
And it would be balanced if the sword user would have to try as hard as the gun user, but since the ship is already small they donn't really have to try at all. Therefore it's not balanced. Slow on missed swing would stop the braindead playstyle of a lot of sword players. It would be a welcome change.
@insaiity said in Cutlass Combat:
@galactic-geek sagte in Cutlass Combat:
@insaiity said:
So then back to the movement penalty - wouldn't it be also okay to bring it back, since you could just only swing when you are in hiting range, so you don't get slowed?There's no need, as it's balanced right now - if you're running 2 guns, it's up to you to keep your distance unless you're a surefire shot or have a blunderbuss equipped (or preferably both).
Well you always say to DGers just keep your distance it's up to you. The same goes for swordspamers, they should not swing when they won't hit.
Well, good thing I'm not a sword spammer then, because I don't swing and miss. That said, the sword can reach a decent distance and being able to utilize that maximum distance can make you a smaller, and harder to hit target.
And it would be balanced if the sword user would have to try as hard as the gun user, but since the ship is already small they donn't really have to try at all.
Not every fight takes place on a ship, but I understand your assumption, since most do occur on a ship. If you're not equipped properly to fight on a ship, then that's the sword guy's fault? No, it isn't.
Therefore it's not balanced.
It absolutely is - at least more so than ever before.
Slow on missed swing would stop the braindead playstyle of a lot of sword players.
While simultaneously reviving the braindead playstyle of DGers that can stand still, take a hit, and shoot their attacker dead post-reload. Want to kill the enemy faster? Use a crewmate to back you up.
It would be a welcome change.
No, it wouldn't because it would strengthen the DG meta, while simultaneously reawakening the sword, AND would be going backwards, undoing months and months of fixes, updates, and rebalances. Seems like it would be a waste to me...
@galactic-geek sagte in Cutlass Combat:
Not every fight takes place on a ship, but I understand your assumption, since most do occur on a ship. If you're not equipped properly to fight on a ship, then that's the sword guy's fault? No, it isn't.
You can't seriously say that sword is balanced if you have equip blunderbombs etc. to deal with it.
Therefore it's not balanced.
It absolutely is - at least more so than ever before.
Well it was balanced before but the DG exploit made it seem like it wasn't. Now that DG is fixed the sword from before would be totally fine.
Slow on missed swing would stop the braindead playstyle of a lot of sword players.
While simultaneously reviving the braindead playstyle of DGers that can stand still, take a hit, and shoot their attacker dead post-reload. Want to kill the enemy faster? Use a crewmate to back you up.
That's just plainly wrong. You just asume that people keep on spaming, but since that would not work they had to time their swings. Then no DGer would have an advantage. Sorry but this argument of yours really doesn't add up.
It would be a welcome change.
No, it wouldn't because it would strengthen the DG meta, while simultaneously reawakening the sword, AND would be going backwards, undoing months and months of fixes, updates, and rebalances. Seems like it would be a waste to me...
Sometimes going back is a step forward. And it would most definitely not strengthen the DG meta but reduce the swordspam meta. There's a difference.
that'll open up the double gun meta again, which we just got rid of.
Double gun is still the meta.
3-hit combo is very stoppable - just block.
Skilled players can just jump over your block and getting attacked by 2 at once makes blocking pointless.
You do have time to run away and heal because you can get away mid-combo
Getting hit by a sword removes your ability to jump, a vital method of escape.
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