Cutlass Combat

  • Hello all, I just wanted to preface this post by saying
    I'm not the best PvPer in the game. I enjoy PvP, hell, I wouldn't have kept playing if it was not for PvP.

    That being said, I believe that the state of (Sword) PvP at the moment is spammy and easy.

    Let's start with:

    1.) Cutlass (Pre-Ships of Fortune)

    The cutlass before Ships of Fortune was a joke, not only was the damage pitiful put it was also out-classed by double gunning in every way.

    Double gunning could output twice the damage of the cutlass at half the time whilst also not sacrificing range.
    It was clear it needed a buff.

    2.) Cutlass (Pre-Haunted Shores)

    Ships of Fortune rolls out and with it, (in addition to every other great thing in that update) came a cutlass buff.

    Cutlasses were now a force to be reckoned with, outputting 25% damage every swing and 60% every lunge.

    This change didn't make it unstoppable, however, you could still die whether it be due to poor positioning or a bad reaction time.

    This was the cutlass at its peak, not too powerful but not too weak, a balanced weapon.

    3.) Cutlass (Post-Haunted Shores)

    Haunted Shores comes out and alongside spooky ghost ships; comes a cutlass buff.

    This buff now made it so that if you slice your opponent: they will be unable to retaliate, instead requiring them to sword block.

    My problems with the cutlass begin here, whereas before you could simply shoot them as they were slicing you, forcing them to attempt to manoeuvre to avoid your bullets, now they could just blindly sword you with no repercussions.

    Wanna shoot them? Nope, you can't because they're slicing you.
    Wanna block? No chance, they'll either kill you due to its 4-hit kill or you'll block and they'll still kill you because it didn't register your block.

    I think RARE is confused about where they want to take the cutlass.
    On one hand, they're trying to make it powerful due to its damage,
    on the other, they're trying to make it powerful due to its stun.

    My solution(s)?

    Idea 1:

    Nerf the cutlass to a 2-hit combo.

    50 damage is a lot to be putting out, especially considering that it would only take 2 combos to kill somebody.

    Idea 2:

    Nerf the cutlass to 20 per swing.

    20 damage would be a nice compromise between 25 and 15 because it's enough to be effective but not enough to just be used as its own thing.

    and Idea 3:

    Bring back the slow-down that came with swinging.
    This would make it a lot harder to spam as you'll be slowed down every swing, making you an easier target.

    Of course, a skilled player will use the sword hops to their advantage when trying to dodge bullet fire when slowed down, making it take a fair bit of skill.

    Well, that took too long to type, tell me what you think in the replies.
    Maybe I'm just bad at PvP, who knows.

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  • @fleeblorp I agree recent fights have been VERY annoying with me either getting destroyed with little I can do to counter, or me destroying the other opponent likewise. The recent buff wasn't nice at all. The previous update was better.

  • @fleeblorp I agree. I think it should be nerfed to 20 per swing. Becuase first you get hit with a 3 hit combo that in most cases is unstoppable. You are then 1 hit. Becuase of how short the cooldown is. It does not give you enough time to run away or heal.

  • @fleeblorp

    You can block the sword very easily to stop spamming.

    Should they fix combat? Yes. However your suggestion is ignoring why they made the changes in the first place.

    They increased movement speed for players using the sword because killing a player with a gun when they are attacking with the sword was as easy as pulling the trigger.

    So if you want players to slow back down when using the sword like it was at the release of the game, then we need to reintroduce the complete stun the game also had in the beginning, which was as long as someone was being attacked by the sword, they couldn't do anything. They were completely stunned, their own movement slowed to only 5% of normal speed, they couldn't jump, eat, or shoot their gun, or even sword swipe. The only thing they could do was block.

    So if you want the slow back, the stun lock has to be back to balance it. There is no way to catch a player or even kill the player who has a loaded gun if the player using sword is slowed to a crawl after swinging.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that combat needs to be re-worked, but you are ignoring WHY the changes were made in the first place and ignoring the initial reason of why they were done.

    What I want is for combat to go back to what it was during launch but just make sword mandatory, no more double gunning. Launch combat was the best combat, it was clean and never did I at any point in time get frustrated with the mechanics, only got frustrated when every single new player PC/Xbox started to doublegun. I can dodge 3 to 4 bullets, not 6 to 8.

  • As someone who just recently got back into the game but played hundreds of hours in beta and on release...

    The combat now is a lot better. It does feel a little spammy, but there have been multiple times now that I have been attacked from behind and managed to jump away or off the ship where i could eat and shoot at the person who jumped me.

    Blocking and waiting for them to finish the 3 hit combo stops them pretty well. I have yet to find myself in a situation where I simply couldn't do anything except for when i was attack by two people with swords at once...in which case...I shouldn't be okay if I let myself get surrounded.

    I agree something more might still need to be done, but I also don't think over complicating the sword play will benefit the game much

  • @xultanis-dragon I was planning on adding the idea of forcing a cutlass into the post but restricting a player's freedom is never fun.
    That's not to say I disagree though.

  • @fleeblorp

    Totally gotcha. They been trying to fix combat for 2 years when they could have just made sword mandatory.

    Someone told me they were considering making it to where the player couldn't jump while reloading which would have been a really nice addition.

    They could also change the way the sword damage is dealt. Instead of 25 - 25 - 25 , they could make it 15 - 15 - 45. Let the last hit have all the damage, but again if a person is being hit by they sword then they are stunned and can't jump out of it.

    The argument I heard from double gunners and by some peeps is the reason why they don't like the stun lock is because when they get hit, they reflexively JUMP away and thats their plan. They jump jump jump away and away to get out of harms way. Which is fine, I'll just chase you and kill you anyways, however I think that mechanic is flawed.

    Sword at the moment is horribly messed up but it has the double gunners crying murder, which means its doing whats its suppose to, putting sword into the meta. Double gunning is still an issue at best and annoying to deal with against multiple players.

    But completely agree with you man, changes need to be made, the argument is HOW. So if I disagree with you on the suggestion that doesn't mean I'm not with that combat needs an overhaul.

  • Either completely rework sword or revert back to 1st anniversary sword abilities with the FoTD fixed sword range. Also nerfing the damage radius would be great. Maybe add slowdown back if going with the rework option instead of revert option.

  • The ONLY thing missing to balance out the sword and make it skillful to use again is to bring back the miss penalty it used to have. No other changes needed. Good players will still slay with the sword while new players will need to learn not to spam M1, when to block, when to switch to another weapon, etc.

  • @magazar

    Would need to change how players react to being hit by the sword if that is true. Again, the reason why they made the changes was to make sword viable against double gunning. Which you can do now. Before it was difficult to say the least since you can just reload your gun and fire before the sword kills you. Sword should be the deciding factor close range not weapons. The only other instance is one shot blunder but if the person misses and is getting hit by the sword, then they shouldn't be able to just face tank the hits, reload the blunder buss, keep taking more hits to the face, and then fire before dying to the sword.

  • @xultanis-dragon to be honest I'm finding your comment a bit confusing so I am going to copy paste my complete summary and opinion on sword combat.

    Sword combat at launch was rather simple. Slashes, you needed to hit an object or player to continue the 3hit combo, you had a slowdown while slashing. Then there was lunging, charging your sword and swoosh, yeah nothing too special about it. As time went on, people began finding other abilities to the sword. If you did a block-slash your player during the first slash of the combo would not be stunned. I’m bad at explaining so here's the video link ( https://youtu.be/4Lw75Tn8zrI ) what I consider to be the first (and one of the only actual) sword tutorials. Then you have lunge resetting. The thing I miss most about the game. Ok so I forgot to say if you hit a player with a lunge, you were not stunned, if you missed the player you were stunned. People found that if you hit the ground or any object during the lunge animation, you could perform a series of bunny hopping to somewhat avoid the cooldown. I’m just gonna link a few outdated tutorials from TPC since I’m too lazy to explain everything. So this is a quickslash tutorial (basically bhopping while slashing in between) https://youtu.be/XyYWQwq9Esc So yeah bunny hopping also made sword epic, simple to do but still a welcome addition. Here’s the lunge cooldown cancel tpc tutorial, the narrator also said in the first video ( the quickslashing one) was hard to do on islands but he got it backwards https://youtu.be/7ixfxKEQgzE . Sword combat was simple on the outside but had a few techniques that made it interesting. I’m not doing any research by the way I’m just going off of memory not going back in patch notes which is why the timeline might be a bit messed up. So the first February PVP patch, February 2019 rare decides to nerf dg and buff sword, the sword became frustrating to fight against. Just spam slashes at the ground, object, or a player and you would kill anything in sight. Removing the slowdown was the first major blowback to sword combat because it removed the thing where you block-slashed to remove the slowdown during your first slash. A friend of mine and I actually competed in a sword tourney and it was a disaster because around 15 people were spectating in the fort so no one had character animations we just got mowed down by people slashing the floor while we tried to bhop, couldn't even counter them with lunges because the tourney only let you lunge once or you would get disqualified (which is what happened to me of course). There was a patch like 2-3 weeks later which “made it less spammy” but it was just as op, can't remember what exactly the patch did but it was useless. So yeah sword combat was at a terrible state until the anniversary update, around 13 months after launch. Sword combat was perfect, dg was perfect, everything was perfect other than sword range at times but that got fixed in FoTD patch. I quit the game around July 2019 (maybe can't remember) until like a week before Rare ruined sword again. Rare removed the ability to lunge reset because it was technically an exploit but really a cool game mechanic. Rare then removed sword x canceling like a week later because a few months ago because a player called remarkable (the biggest guy in TPC) was using a macro but he insisted he wasn’t. https://youtu.be/v7qRr4bmPe8?t=384 video is really long, terribly made, and hard to understand but the clips show it all. So instead of banning him or making a macro detection system, Rare decided to remove x canceling. There have been small changes I’m pretty sure, small damage buffs and blocking improvements. Sword range somehow got ruined again https://streamable.com/kvzj1v . Also forgot to mention during the time I quit the game there were a few changes in terms of stunlock which broke the game so much even Rare realized how bad it was (one of the few times rare admitted they were wrong). That basically concludes the history of swordplay (as of 6/25/2020).

    Sword requires no aim because of the massive radius. Rare removed the abilities which actually took a little bit of mechanical skill and muscle memory. In the words of Relaaa, “anything that makes players press more than 1 button is a miracle… it can make a game more skillful and competitive”.

    How to fix sword: Either completely rework sword or revert back to 1st anniversary sword abilities with the FoTD fixed sword range. Also nerfing the radius would be really appreciated.

    I am sorry for the large paragraph but it was something I wrote a while ago.

  • @magazar

    If you are going to change sword back then Double gunning needs to be nerfed again. What I said was that each sword change was done to combat double gunning and certain changes were done to give players an edge to use swords against double gunning.

    The sword as it is now is strong enough that double gunners are having to second guess what they want to use for PvP. Before the damage buff, a player could tank the hits of a sword after missing a shot, reload, and then shoot again ALL the way being hit by the sword. This is a bad mechanic. So now if you get caught having to reload and someone is hitting you, you will die before you reload. Thats how it should be.

    Now I'm not saying combat isn't messed up, but at the moment its the most balanaced its been since launch, before Mr. SuperBadI'MGoingToCryBecausePaceCarriesMeSummit made double gunning popular.

    If you want them to revert changes back to FoTD then they have to change double gunning in a way by either making reloads take 5 seconds and jumping cancels reload animation.

    Combat entirely is messed up, however sword is in a place where it can combat double gunners. The proof is how mad doublegunners get now. Before it was "har har har I'm super awesome you bad" to now "GOD I HATE THIS GAME. SWORD IS SO DUMB. YOURE A BOT LOSER"

    You can't just run away and shoot from range anymore, you get caught you die. Thats how sword should be.

  • @xultanis-dragon said in Cutlass Combat:

    @magazar What I said was that each sword change was done to combat double gunning and certain changes were done to give players an edge to use swords against double gunning.

    If you actually read what I wrote you'd realize that Rare has made many changes that nerf sword and remove the mechanical skill that was required.

    Now I'm not saying combat isn't messed up, but at the moment its the most balanaced its been since launch, before Mr. SuperBadI'MGoingToCryBecausePaceCarriesMeSummit made double gunning popular.
    The proof is how mad doublegunners get now. Before it was "har har har I'm super awesome you bad" to now "GOD I HATE THIS GAME. SWORD IS SO DUMB. YOURE A BOT LOSER"

    Wow not sure how you took my criticism of combat like that. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    I did not include my opinion on double gun as none of my previous comments were about dg but since you want to keep talking about dg I guess we can.

    I want sword to come back, I originally used sword and almost everyday of the 2019 summer I setup alliance servers with my friends, we'd go to Reapers Hideout (back then it was known as J11, because of its location on the map) and we would sword duel all day. Because of the sword changes my friends and I began to find sword combat boring, some of us quit the game and the ones who didn't quit began double gunning. Here's an old video I uploaded of what I recorded from my friends. https://youtu.be/4zC3SpIJnF8

    So dg, as you said

    If you want them to revert changes back to FoTD then they have to change double gunning in a way by either making reloads take 5 seconds and jumping cancels reload animation.

    in my opinion, that's just dumb, revert sword combat to Anniversary-FoTD that way sword can compete with dg.

    5 second reload? Reload speeds are fine because of the ttk, if you really want to change a reload then increase the blunderbuss reload time just a tad.

    With the Jump cancels reload change you are just encouraging people who have little accuracy by limiting the movements of players. Punishing players who have movement and buffing players who can't aim.

    In conclusion, I want sword to be great again, not through damage buffs but through ability additions. If the devs added additional sword abilities and/or reworked it I would stop dging in a heartbeat and go back to setting up adventure server takeovers for pvp minigames.

  • @magazar when will they realize that sword shouldn’t be comparable to dg. It takes so much more skill to be a top double gunner than it does to be a top swordsman and don’t anyone even argue with me on that. If you disagree with me then go watch a sot montage and you’ll see for yourself. Anyway mag, I know we both agree that a good double gunner should always beat a good swordsman just because the skill ceiling for double gun is so much higher. The skill ceiling for a sword is the pocono mountains and the skill ceiling for double gun is mt Everest. Double gun just takes more skill. And no to the person reading this, making sword a 4 hit combo doesn’t raise the skill ceiling, it basically just gives you a free ski lift to the top of your mountain.

  • The funny thing is people complaining about double gun probably use sword blunderbus and then cry when they get beat. That combo just makes you worse at pvp. A good sword blunder user doesn’t exist. And if they don’t use sword blunder then they forget that they even have a sniper/pistol equipped and just sword spam you with their skill

  • @sherpa725

    When you realize this isn't a shooter game and a fantasy pirate game, meaning that the sword should have a viable spot in the meta than we can start talking about the games combat. Fantasy pirates tend to be swashbuckling...

    If you believe melee weapons cannot have skill than you haven't played good melee combat games.

    If you believe Sea of Thieves has amazing gunplay you haven't played proper gunplay games.

    High skill ceiling are we playing the same game? The only true skill you need in this game is positioning, with half decent aim.

  • @sherpa725

    Double gun just takes more skill.

    Yes, it does but not a lot, a blunder-sniper combo is stupidly easy to pull off because it kills almost instantly and only requires good aim with the Eye of Reach.

    If you disagree with me then go watch a sot montage and you’ll see for yourself.

    All that I see are people wallbanging or killing people faster than they can run away or eat.

    The skill ceiling for a sword is the Pocono mountains and the skill ceiling for double gun is mt Everest.

    Jesus, it's literally just using 2 guns at once.

    I really wish double gunners stopped acting like they're the pinnacle of skill and any cutlass user is a naive simpleton who knows nothing about aiming.

  • @sherpa725

    The funny thing is people complaining about double gun probably use sword blunderbus and then cry when they get beat. That combo just makes you worse at PVP. A good sword blunder user doesn’t exist. And if they don’t use sword blunder then they forget that they even have a sniper/pistol equipped and just sword spam you with their skill

    Does putting other people down make you feel like you're winning an argument?

    I honestly don't see the need to insult people who use a weapon combo that I would disagree with.

  • @kommodoreyenser That's what I meant by bringing the stun back.
    It shouldn't be so easy to spam at people.

  • @magazar dang yer bad

  • Another idea.... bring back X cancel to make the sword not spammy as fuxk which allows for skill gap (that rare seem to hate with a passion). This makes the sword VERY strong in the right hands allowing you to buff double guns speed :), everyone’s happy. Thoughts?

  • @fleeblorp said in Cutlass Combat:

    @sherpa725

    I really wish double gunners stopped acting like they're the pinnacle of skill and any cutlass user is a naive simpleton who knows nothing about aiming.

    My whole time playing arena on sot (nearly everyday since January) I’ve only ran into about 4 players who could actually consistently land shots excluding a blunderbus so take that as you will

  • @fleeblorp said in Cutlass Combat:

    @sherpa725

    I honestly don't see the need to insult people who use a weapon combo that I would disagree with.

    Well sword blunder is the most mindless weapon combo in the whole game. I could put on a blind fold, board a ship, and still manage to sword spam them to death. The sword also has a 360 degree radius so I’d say it’s pretty broken and I personally think it should be removed

  • @fleeblorp my ideas

    1: stay far away from sword users

    2: make use of blunder or blunder bombs to throw off the sword user

    3: make sure your clear when you fire

    4: know your ways out without having to turn around

    tbh i don't enjoy double gunning because there was literally no reason to run anything else

    because double gunners could previously tank the sword hits easily shooting people

    i think your just so unused to facing sword users especially when the sword has had a buff so you don't know how to counter

    because i honestly do just fine

    flint and EOR are suppose to lose to close quarter

    if you don't bring a sword to a sword fight thats not the swords fault

  • @sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:
    Sword also has a 360 degree radius

    It does not. It's got a wide-arcing swing, yes, but it's not 360°. You can test this by having an ally stand in front of you, but slightly off direct center, and then facing directly away from you. I have tested this myself.

  • @sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:

    @fleeblorp said in Cutlass Combat:

    @sherpa725

    I really wish double gunners stopped acting like they're the pinnacle of skill and any cutlass user is a naive simpleton who knows nothing about aiming.

    My whole time playing arena on sot (nearly everyday since January) I’ve only ran into about 4 players who could actually consistently land shots excluding a blunderbus so take that as you will

    consistensy does NOT dictate skill

    I'm an OW player scored grandmaster (top rank) in competetive top 500 being 304th placement in my region as widow (hitscan sniper)

    i score many hits but not enough to call it consistent while i hit more than the average player but consistency of shots does not make it skilled positioning and timing and planning makes skill

    what makes me skilled? i can tell you its not my ability to kill

    its my ability to communicate with my team protect flanks and use my kits and abilities for their intended purpose thats skill

    shooting a target either standing still or moving is not hard to master

    you also forget this game is not a competetive fps game being an avid fps player myself its not even a fps game

    its an adventure game

    i've sailed for 3 years and i've meet plenty of people who score hits consistently but they still lose

    hitting shots is not hard at all especially in this game

    this game's pvp combat is like rock paper scissors weaponry is situational you bring guns (paper) to a sword fight (scissors) you will be at a disadvantage as it should be

  • @i-kauffdrop-i said in Cutlass Combat:

    Another idea.... bring back X cancel to make the sword not spammy as fuxk which allows for skill gap (that rare seem to hate with a passion). This makes the sword VERY strong in the right hands allowing you to buff double guns speed :), everyone’s happy. Thoughts?

    You can already cancel your sword swing into pretty much everything else. Cancelling back into your own sword was broken and removed for good reason.

  • @sherpa725 said in Cutlass Combat:

    @magazar when will they realize that sword shouldn’t be comparable to dg. It takes so much more skill to be a top double gunner than it does to be a top swordsman and don’t anyone even argue with me on that. If you disagree with me then go watch a sot montage and you’ll see for yourself. Anyway mag, I know we both agree that a good double gunner should always beat a good swordsman just because the skill ceiling for double gun is so much higher. The skill ceiling for a sword is the pocono mountains and the skill ceiling for double gun is mt Everest. Double gun just takes more skill. And no to the person reading this, making sword a 4 hit combo doesn’t raise the skill ceiling, it basically just gives you a free ski lift to the top of your mountain.

    Most pirates I run into know how to double-gun, and do so quite well. In contrast, most pirates I run into know how to use sword (because that part's easy), but most of them don't use it to its fullest potential or to the best of their ability - so I would argue that either the skill ceiling for the sword is really very high, or at the very least, that most pirates' ignorance is instead.

    100% of pirates (and I'm being serious here; that percentage isn't just thrown out to look good) I encounter have learned something new from me in regards to sword combat when I show them what I know. What's that say about them? Or the sword itself?

  • @MAGAZAR said:

    How to fix sword: Either completely rework sword or revert back to 1st anniversary sword abilities with the FoTD fixed sword range. Also nerfing the radius would be really appreciated.

    The sword is in a good place right now and getting better, despite its storied history. Going backwards is NOT the way.

  • @kommodoreyenser said in Cutlass Combat:

    The ONLY thing missing to balance out the sword and make it skillful to use again is to bring back the miss penalty it used to have. No other changes needed. Good players will still slay with the sword while new players will need to learn not to spam M1, when to block, when to switch to another weapon, etc.

    Bring it back? It never left! It was only reduced.

  • @xultanis-dragon said:

    Instead of 25 - 25 - 25 , they could make it 15 - 15 - 45. Let the last hit have all the damage

    This limits options. For example, with the current setup, I can fake out my opponent by doing a 2-hit combo cancelled into another 2-hit combo - this breaks their expectation of the bounce that comes after the 3rd combo strike, but that never comes, which creates an opening. With your setup, if I tried the same scenario, assuming I throw them off after they successfully block the 1st 2 strikes, I'm only looking at 30% damage instead of 50%. That means that I would have to perform this strategy 4x to kill them, and by then they've probably learned my habit, which doesn't bode well for me.

  • @warlord-waffles said:

    Blocking and waiting for them to finish the 3 hit combo stops them pretty well. I have yet to find myself in a situation where I simply couldn't do anything except for when i was attack by two people with swords at once...in which case...I shouldn't be okay if I let myself get surrounded.

    Actually, waiting for that 3rd blocked strike is what will get you killed against a seasoned sword veteran like me (see my post above).

    ...and actually, you should be okay even if you get surrounded. The mere fact that you think you aren't tells me that you don't realize that you can block and then sword dodge THROUGH the enemy, immediately getting out of harm's way and automatically cornering them in your stead.

  • @jctc758 said in Cutlass Combat:

    I think it should be nerfed to 20 per swing. Becuase first you get hit with a 3 hit combo that in most cases is unstoppable. You are then 1 hit. Becuase of how short the cooldown is. It does not give you enough time to run away or heal.

    20 per swing? Nope - that'll open up the double gun meta again, which we just got rid of.

    3-hit combo is very stoppable - just block.

    You do have time to run away and heal because you can get away mid-combo - in fact the moment you block the very 1st swing (see my post above).

  • @fleeblorp A 2-hit combo with sword instead of 3? I actually don't think I'd be against that idea. 😅

    Still, 3 gives you more depth.

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