What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?

  • slannmage
    Master
    Founder

    I want consequence and to fear death, if I can just respawn and get the same ship back instantly... what's the point?

    Being able to build your own ship Fortnite style with prefabs would be so much better, that way you lose something you spent time on.

    However I think you shouldn't be able to get back easily to your crew if you die, they should have to manually pick you up... what is with ship respawning? It sucks.

    The game would have so much more potential if it was an Indie developer and not a so called AAA one... AAA developers end up making bland games for everyone that end up appealing to no one.

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  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    If you want death to have real consequences, just choose perma-death. Make a pact with yourself (and your crew) that, if you find yourself on the Ferry of the Damned, you will quit the game.

    No need for game to be changed.

  • Kashaarafall

    @slannmage It's been argued back and forth if there should be some kind of penalty for death because people were just going "Oi, ya killed us, good on ya, but now we're back with a full ship and this time, it'll be different!" That was or is pretty much PvP in a nutshell. At the start, which I'm sure you remember, there was a spawning problem so people were quite literally back ontop of you in seconds to minutes.

    They tried to rectify this with the death penalty taxing "Which I personally didn't find bad." and player outcry said "No, that isn't what we want." So, they instead altered respawns of the ships, which did not fully fix the problem, but it waved it away for now. So in short, they tried to have a penalty for death, players thought it was bad because it would hurt their enjoyment of the game because at the start, people weren't making loads of cash due to the whole seafarer's chest overtaking pretty much every dig spot. Now? Well, death penalty would only hurt if it was a % of your overall.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @slannmage I'm assuming you are talking about player death and not ship sinking because there is already a penalty for letting your ship sink; you lose any treasure you had on board (most likely).

    At the time that the death tax idea was floated out there by the devs, another prevalent issue was also a hot topic among the community: spawn killing/griefing. At the time, there was no reminder on the ferry that you can scuttle the ship (although I believe it was always an option while dead).

    I had cautioned (although I'm sure it had 0 influence on Rare's decision) that they should address the spawn killing/griefing issue before trying to implement the death tax or else the community would be in uproar.

    In all honesty I think that could be implemented now that the amount of players who are complaining about spawn camping/griefing on the forums and reddit has drastically decreased, so long as a minimum gold threshold is met, so that newer players aren't stripped of their gold. (say above 10,000ish you lose 200ish gold on death).

    Still, a straight gold penalty is not the best way to punish death in this game IMO.

  • Vaca Hombre
    Champion
    Boatswain
    Founder

    If I'm remembering correctly, they actually said the death tax wouldn't apply to PvP deaths. Or maybe that was an attempted concession after the fact, I'm not sure.

    My main problem with the death tax was it would have made my play times much more boring. Coming up with crazy schemes and wacky plans to take out skellie mobs or escape pursuing pirates is a huge part of SoT's appeal for me.

    To be an actual deterrent, the death tax would have to be high enough to matter. And all that would have done for me is made me play it safe. No more hijinks and tomfoolery; stick to the usual, tried and true tactic cause that has the least chance of losing me gold. Don't act up or you'll be punished.

    Heck, I couldn't tell you how often I killed myself by climbing to the top of Galleon's Grave and sword-launching myself off to try and hit certain targets.

    Would that cost me gold?

    Could I no longer end my game session by loading up on powder kegs and setting off my own funeral pyre?

    Yes, no penalty for death DOES cheapen the fact that you died and caused some problems within PvP. But it also allows you to play around so much more with world. And, for me at least, I'd rather try and solve PvP another way than by hamstringing your ability to goof off.

  • BR0CRASTINAT0R
    Captain
    Insider

    Just the word fortnight makes me cringe. But to your point. I still fear in game death and I still love all my loot castaways to box of mysterious wonders. I don’t like loosing my ship for any reason and you should allways be given a chance for revenge. Not be discouraged by a death tax.

  • John Hatter
    Marauder

    EDIT: @V**a-Hombre You beat me to the point I wanted but after typing all this I was clicking the post button haha~

    Another aspect to consider with death penalties would be the varying playstyles. While a death penalty may add drama, excitement, challenge, etc etc to a pvp world (as well as other areas depending on your style) such a thing bleeds into the more laid back side of things. Part of my fun throughout an evening is my friend and I trying to assassinate each other with gunpowder barrels. Why should we be punished for having fun just because it involves our deaths?

    Of course you could start talking about just having it effect pvp deaths but I imagine such a thing isn't easy to single out mechanic wise given the way the game works (I could be wrong I know little about these things).

    At the end of the day Rare has chosen to attempt to appease everyone and such a feature appeases 'too few' (Not that I know the numbers but I imagine that is how it is viewed overall).

    As far as the OP goes it just isn't that type of game. A game where you build your ship and work at it and have to collect crew and all those types of things would be a fun game I imagine and I have heard of a few here and there that has done such things. But that isn't what Rare made. I dislike sports games as a whole but I played the c**p out of the old Space Jam game (L****y Tunes for the win!) but I don't get mad because all basketball games don't involve Bugs Bunny. It just isn't what was made.

    I will agree with the last line a bit. They tend to stretch the net a bit far in making games anymore and there is a quality that is appealing when someone really narrows in on what they are making even if it only appeals to a smaller audience. Just look at Stardew Valley. Very successful but I can't imagine playing farmer is on everyone's down time list.

    SoT has a wide theme net. Pirates are appealing. The game itself is a bit of a mess as it tries to make everyone happy but the final product is entertaining enough. I never go in expecting a multiplayer game to check all my personal boxes.

    -shrug- To each their own.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @john-hatter said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    EDIT: @V**a-Hombre You beat me to the point I wanted but after typing all this I was clicking the post button haha~

    Another aspect to consider with death penalties would be the varying playstyles. While a death penalty may add drama, excitement, challenge, etc etc to a pvp world (as well as other areas depending on your style) such a thing bleeds into the more laid back side of things. Part of my fun throughout an evening is my friend and I trying to assassinate each other with gunpowder barrels. Why should we be punished for having fun just because it involves our deaths?

    This is a symptom of a game that has nothing to do in the first place, not an exciting example of gameplay that must be preserved at all costs...

    Of course you could start talking about just having it effect pvp deaths but I imagine such a thing isn't easy to single out mechanic wise given the way the game works (I could be wrong I know little about these things).

    At the end of the day Rare has chosen to attempt to appease everyone and such a feature appeases 'too few' (Not that I know the numbers but I imagine that is how it is viewed overall).

    As far as the OP goes it just isn't that type of game. A game where you build your ship and work at it and have to collect crew and all those types of things would be a fun game I imagine and I have heard of a few here and there that has done such things. But that isn't what Rare made. I dislike sports games as a whole but I played the c**p out of the old Space Jam game (L****y Tunes for the win!) but I don't get mad because all basketball games don't involve Bugs Bunny. It just isn't what was made.

    I will agree with the last line a bit. They tend to stretch the net a bit far in making games anymore and there is a quality that is appealing when someone really narrows in on what they are making even if it only appeals to a smaller audience. Just look at Stardew Valley. Very successful but I can't imagine playing farmer is on everyone's down time list.

    SoT has a wide theme net. Pirates are appealing. The game itself is a bit of a mess as it tries to make everyone happy but the final product is entertaining enough. I never go in expecting a multiplayer game to check all my personal boxes.

    -shrug- To each their own.

  • Vaca Hombre
    Champion
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @a-cranky-eskimo said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    This is a symptom of a game that has nothing to do in the first place, not an exciting example of gameplay that must be preserved at all costs...

    But it's there, and it's fun. So I think it is worth preserving. Or at the very least, worth heavy consideration before tweaking it.

    Sword-surfing wasn't an intended feature either, but it was fun, so they kept it. Whether it was intended or not, it is now a feature of the game that many enjoy, so it can't just be dismissed.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @v**a-hombre said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    @a-cranky-eskimo said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    This is a symptom of a game that has nothing to do in the first place, not an exciting example of gameplay that must be preserved at all costs...

    But it's there, and it's fun. So I think it is worth preserving. Or at the very least, worth heavy consideration before tweaking it.

    Sword-surfing wasn't an intended feature either, but it was fun, so they kept it. Whether it was intended or not, it is now a feature of the game that many enjoy, so it can't just be dismissed.

    Lol.. so killing teamates with a gpb because of lack of actual goals or incentives being designed into the game, is something rather than the nothing we see across the board for this game, so it should continue to impede the development of actual goals and incentives being added (in this case some penalty for death) ??

    Dont see the logic there but im sure they could work around team kills and still add to the game.

  • Ghostfire1981
    Vanguard
    Insider

    To people like me, with a regular life with work and other real life duties, TIME is more valuable than any amount of virtual gold/treasure. So getting sunk, and loosing all the collected resources and possible treasure is actually quite expensive measured in available and spent time.

    Just my couple of gold coins to the discussion.

  • Vaca Hombre
    Champion
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @a-cranky-eskimo

    Every system has pros and cons. The freedom to fool around for fun can be exploited by people wanting to be jerks to their own crew. The open PvP system can be abused by those whose only motivation is to ruin others' day.

    I'm not saying 'don't try and fix it'; I want the PvPers to enjoy the game as much as the non-PvPers. But the death tax seemed like a cudgel of a solution. Breaking as many things as it fixed.

  • Snomann168
    Founder

    Idk about you but I hold a 40 to 50 hour a week job so anytime my time is wasted that would be the penalty to me lol

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @auntrusty-mango please explain how the game rewards you rep for digging up chests or killing skeleton captains?

    Pure rubbish!

    You get rep and gold for handing them in. You sink or have your loot taken from you, that other Pirate gets that gold and rep.
    Commendations are also linked to the hand in... not the digging or killing so what the heck are you on about?

  • MissKitty 77770
    Master

    @slannmage said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    I want consequence and to fear death, if I can just respawn and get the same ship back instantly... what's the point?

    Being able to build your own ship Fortnite style with prefabs would be so much better, that way you lose something you spent time on.

    However I think you shouldn't be able to get back easily to your crew if you die, they should have to manually pick you up... what is with ship respawning? It sucks.

    The game would have so much more potential if it was an Indie developer and not a so called AAA one... AAA developers end up making bland games for everyone that end up appealing to no one.

    All credibility lost as original post references "Fortnite" a game for 5 to 10 yearolds.

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    @xxcorvetteguyxx

    All credibility lost as original post references "Fortnite" a game for 5 to 10 year olds

    Is this like Godwin's Law? Any reference to Fortnite nullifies any argument? :-)

  • Kashaarafall

    @ghostfire1981 So, basically, you just referenced pretty much anyone that wants to have a leisure or recreation of their own, but you make it an excuse because you just want things to be easier on you? Heh, alright then. Death penalty makes people play more cautiously and makes the game more tense, or adversely, it can cause people to grief. That prevention is up to the devs to decide how to stop it, not to outright not put it in, but eh, the game is fine without it, but wouldn't of been hurt with it.

    @xXCorvetteGuyXx Fortnite wasn't made for 5-10 year olds actually. It used the system of Fortnite/the design of fortnite which was not made for 10 year olds at all. That's like saying DBZ was made for 5-10 year olds which it wasn't, it was made from a graphic Manga and it wasn't until it came state side that the series got casualized by Kai to turn it more childish. No blood, no sexual jokes, etc. They adhere to the playerbase that ends up playing the game, not develop it for one mindset.

    If you really wanna take that stand, then Sea of Thieves with its cartoony appearance wasn't made for adults,yet adults play it =P. People play what they like, that is all there is to it.

  • J4dio
    Commander
    Insider
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @kashaarafall said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    @ghostfire1981 So, basically, you just referenced pretty much anyone that wants to have a leisure or recreation of their own, but you make it an excuse because you just want things to be easier on you? >

    I think you may have made a bit of an error in judgement there dear sir/lady. Real life time is a risk fully on it's own and does not need an in game penalty. I'm not entirely sure but I don't think ghost was asking for it easier, just suggesting their time not to be penalised. I fully support that, voyaging for any amount of time and losing your loot is h*****n the heart, but to be punished for it, to me is an insane idea.

    @xXCorvetteGuyXx Fortnite wasn't made for 5-10 year olds actually. It used the system of Fortnite/the design of fortnite which was not made for 10 year olds at all.

    Certainly was never intended for 5-10 year olds, over here it has a PEGI 12 rating, but given their in game "microtransactions" results, and for the many tournaments and exhibitions I've been to (yes spoken to some of the players) the age limit doesn't seem to stand up. When you've got players on a stage that are only just of legal age to be able to play the game... errr.. the game has focused off course to me.

    If you really wanna take that stand, then Sea of Thieves with its cartoony appearance wasn't made for adults,yet adults play it =P. People play what they like, that is all there is to it.

    If a death penalty came in I'd be sad, not angry though, I'm not taking a stand like that at all.. I just really don't see the point, it does not, to me, make the game or the risk tougher.

    It just makes it less enjoyable, so perhaps that's why Rare have made it this way ? Young and old just get on with it, as is, and have a laugh without having a reason to stay too focused. There are amazing players out there and I salute them for that, but a death penalty for not being good ????? Come on, enjoy the game, it's not IRL stuff.

    Get back to your fresh ship and have some precious enjoyable time on a new adventure.

  • Boxcar Squidy
    Captain
    Insider

    The only penalty for death is a 30 second time out during which you cannot do anything except chill out on the ferry or scuttle.

    The penalty for having your ship sunk is losing anything you had on board.

    You can have your ship sunk and not die, you can die and not have your ship sunk.

    Two different, although related systems.

    Are you proposing a harsher penalty for dying or a harsher penalty for being sunk?

    The penalty for being sunk can already be harsh depending on how many hours work you have aboard. The penalty for being killed is low because raising it would make you less able to defend your ship, making it necessary to rebalance the penalty for sinking (i.e. making it less harsh)

    Alls I'm saying is careful what you wish for

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    maybe have a gander through this thread, after the announcement that Death Tax was dropped from the game:
    https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/43904/rare-is-not-going-to-add-death-tax-let-s-discuss-important-matters-like-the-pvp-and-how-it-should-be-re-worked - thw Tweet is fairly clear from Rare, though I can't find any of the original Death Tax megathreads that developed.

    This is good as well:
    https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/34860/what-we-already-know-on-pvp-mechanics-respawn-death-penalty-safe-zones-and-cosmetics
    You can see some of the original discussion around the idea

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    @personalc0ffee sagte in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    What's the point of any entertainment medium?

    To have fun.

    this!

    I am 42yo and i recently found out what games i like and what games i don't like - really.
    I often was hooked to games and never was happy with them in the long term or with how they worked etc.
    I know a lot of players who have hope the next game is the thing they ever looked and waited for to find out it's not.
    I am beyond this now. I recognized for myself that i not allways like, what i think i would like.
    I love RPG's and was a DM for many years in P&Per, but i don't like RPGs on the Computer and i absolutely dislike how MMORPGs are designed, but i played tons of them and tons of hours ni the last 15 years. But now i stop it until a game is developed that matches my expectations.
    I stop trying to turn things around and accept what things are and given. If i like it i play it, if i don't like it i accept it, even if i spend a lot of money, but things mostly just don't change to your wants.
    Like people, like a lot of things they just don't match with your expecations etc.
    Stop having too much expecations and see the world, the games, the people like they are and not what you think they should or need to be. Lern to accept it. Trying to change someone, or something often isn't possible, it's self destructing to try either. And it wpn't make things better for you.
    Stop fighting, where fighting is not the answer.
    This is nothing significant to (your) live, so accept it and just move on.

  • Boxcar Squidy
    Captain
    Insider

    @stundorn If you enjoyed pen and paper RPGs, try Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2, people have told me that it's pretty close to a pen & paper experience.

    I'd have given it a go myself by now but I've been far too busy shouting "Nerds!" irrationally and then shaking them down for their lunch money.

    Some habits last a lifetime.

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    @boxcar-squidy sagte in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    @stundorn If you enjoyed pen and paper RPGs, try Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2, people have told me that it's pretty close to a pen & paper experience.

    I'd have given it a go myself by now but I've been far too busy shouting "Nerds!" irrationally and then shaking them down for their lunch money.

    Some habits last a lifetime.

    own them both and also did a campaign with the tool they offer. I put one of my old Pen and Paper Maps into the game and created about 20 scenes to play a little adventure.
    Thing is, great games, but i exhaust on them and they are often to hard for me in the end. I didnt finish one of them :-(
    Yeah somehow and somewhat sad, but i really lost fun, because some battle were too hard or i just didn't get it what was wrong.
    I maybe just skilled wrong.

    I recently enjoy turn based tactics games like Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, XCOM etc. I also like Gladius: RoW very much.
    These are like SoT games with Match Character, so you start a Match and even if a Match endures a long time - for Gladius it can take some days if you play on a huge map - you allways start at from the beginning.
    I dont like leveling - i still wait for a MMROPG without levels like SoT, where RP is key, where it is about interactions, interdepedencies, cooperation and competition, but like SoT with a plain levelfield and no timesink/ grind mechanics what only separate players. Until then i dont feel i play a RPG, because what was delivered the last 20 years wasnt about roleplaying, but rolplaying elements like raise your attributes.
    That is maybe a part of it, but as i allways say. PArtys looking for numbers and calculations only bore me. Partys who roleplay and numbers and calculations are seconded were interesting and fun.
    Nowadays too many "players" dont play, they go for numbers and calculations only and to achieve and raise something, be it a level, reputation or whatever.

  • ClosingHare208
    Marauder
    Insider

    @slannmage this is not FORTNIGHT GUYS COME NO MORE FORTNIGHT SUSJESTIONS OK PLEASE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • ClosingHare208
    Marauder
    Insider

    @stundorn thanks that will tell them mate

  • Kashaarafall

    @stundorn You can keep waiting on that RPG because without something to work for in a grandscale of things, people get bored. The closest you will get is ultima online (Which as far as I know was shut down.) where you played your way, got better your way and there was no leveling, but there was consequence for bad play in the way of losing your gear/having to get ressurected as a spooky ghost.

    SoT is unique in the fact that it is a casual experience. No skill check, no mountains to climb, everyone is equal. Adversely, it is the reason some people just don't like it. Double edge sword really.

  • KnifeLife
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    @surveyorpete I never understood why anything popular always became a taboo. While Fortnite much like SoT isn’t everybody’s cup of tea you can’t really deny its success, it’s clearly done something right..

    I wonder if it is just because arguing against something popular makes you get that feeling or separation from the “Heard”?

    P.S This wasn’t actually directed at you personally aha I just saw your reply to the other comment and decided to think outloud aha

  • fluidsc
    Master
    Insider

    You will not see me posting much anymore, pretty tired of what goes on here but I will offer this:

    You cannot have any type of death penalty in the game until the game is fixed enough to the point that players are no longer forced to die on purpose to make things work. When islands do not load properly and you have to attempt to die to make them (and usually reconnect, which is detrimental to gameplay if you are solo) or you have to die to get skeletons to spawn...you cannot punish people for dying.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    Another thing I forgot to mention when I was talking about griefing was that, at the time the death tax idea was offered, players were complaining about ships respawning close by and come back over and over again. With the changes to the respawn system, this has been mostly addressed.

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    Maybe Fracturedmmo.com @Kashaarafall
    ...but yes i know what you mean.
    Too offtopic and complex to explain what is in my mind here.
    Short: it can have Mountains to climb, but why need rewards make characters stronger and create powergaps between players?!?
    There are many possibilities to create an environment. But you need not to forget that some gamemechanics are made to constantly reward you to keep you playing.
    I dont want mechanics in games that make you addicted and playing only for the reward.
    But that's exactly how it is and what tons of users express here.

  • Kashaarafall

    @stundorn Well, to answer you offtopic, ultimate online didn't have a power gap. There were a specific set of skills, one of them designed for dodging that couldn't be trained while working on another, so even a low level/skill person could of taken out someone else. However, if someone devoted enough time and effort (There were no shortcuts.) that person would become a grandmaster of their craft and rightfully so, would be recognized for it.

    There is a good reason UO was or is considered one of the best MMO's to date and if you look at the behind the scenes? You will see that the developers basically created it, balanced it (Mostly) and let the players run it. The same can be said for SoT's except it is not on a grandscale and it mostly arena or as you might call it "World" based and having a death penalty wouldn't hurt you in the slightest unless the penalty was a % of your earnings, not a static number. It didn't happen though, so no reason to argue it!

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    I know UO @Kashaarafall and i also already own Legends of Aria and played Shroud of the Avatar (what is completely the opposite and has endless progression and a huge power gap).

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    Just to throw some actual evidence into the discussion of what was said way back in March:

    Justin Olivetti  /  Mar 27, 2018

    Sea of Thieves abandons its planned death tax, focuses on griefing

    Sea of Thieves abandons its planned death tax, focuses on griefing

    I am quoting the Rare Twitter feed here:
    "“We’ve heard the sentiment there, so I can confirm that death cost is, well, dead. Thanks for the feedback here. We’re listening.”"

  • Vaca Hombre
    Champion
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @knifelife said in What is the point of the game if there is no Death Penalty?:

    @surveyorpete I never understood why anything popular always became a taboo. While Fortnite much like SoT isn’t everybody’s cup of tea you can’t really deny its success, it’s clearly done something right..

    I think for many it's just backlash to the oversaturation that comes when something takes off like PUBG or Fortnight have.

    Especially if it's a genre you aren't interested in, as this gives the added (and not altogether unreasonable) fear that it will impact the development of other games as developers scramble to cash in on the craze.

    I'm currently having a similar reaction to Fallout 76. For me it's less anger though, and more just apathy. I'm not a big fan of online games, so the new direction leaves me cold.

  • Admiral RRRSole

    Sorry for arriving three days late to the party but I've only just seen this thread.

    @auntrusty-mango said

    There is nothing special about the chests or skulls to make you go oh god. I can't sink cause I have this captains chest on board. There are no super rare valuable items that you can only find every now and then to turn in. I don't even consider Grogs or Sorrows to be super rare items. Just rare spawns.

    Sorry, I agree with most of what you've said and perhaps it's not much to some but may I remind you of the box of mysterious secrets.
    That there is one super rare extremely valuable item (worth 25,000 g) that most would dread losing... if they were ever fortunate enough to find one.

    Granted it's not enough for me to continue playing when I finally do throw in the towel, just an oversight missed by you and all who commented after your post.

    Carry on. :o)

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