@jim-voorhees I do hope so. That'll be the most constructive contribution you've made to this entire thread.
The best SoT review I have seen
@sanni said in The best SoT review I have seen:
"best review" from a guy that doesn't even understand what Sea of Thieves is ... sure?!
He again just wants to make a MMO RPG out of Sea of Thieves. And again all I can say is that Sea of Thieves is not a MMO nor a RPG. I don't understand why people don't get that.
Sea of Thieves needs content but none of that MMO RPG [mod edited] that he suggests. If you want a MMO just go play a MMO.
...but this IS an MMO.
Minuscule Multiplayer Online
@lobofh said in The best SoT review I have seen:
@captnjaq dijo en The best SoT review I have seen:
What I don't understand is why this Reviewer is asking, "What happened to Sea of Thieves?" If he was an Insider.. Beta Tester.. Founder, he would have realized that SOT hasn't changed from what was told and promised to us.
Points of Argument:
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He compares SOT to OverWatch, Call Of Duty, The Last of Us. -- SOT isn't just a First Person Arena Shooter. And SOT didn't promote a game narrative system. -- TO ME, SOT is in parallel with a MMO Minecraft.
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Incentives to Play. To sail ships within a 1st POV and choose to either attack or let other players be in order for you to explore the world and test yourself. This Game relies on People growing and becoming better in mental skills. SOT the Game doesn't progress player skills. SOT the Concept forces people to take what they've experienced and apply it when they enter the game in future sessions and overcome a sandbox of possibility.
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When he compares SOT to Mario Kart, he mentions the game loop, incentives, not-getting-bored. Aye, the tracks get progressively harder but it's YOU against the world in attachment to instant gratification due to success i.e. the end of a race, the end of the tournament/getting to the top of a global leader-board. SOT isn't like that. The focal point was community. Aye, getting in game to play with your friends, getting on ships and relying on eachother for success, getting on the boards and sharing your stories and build reputation. The selling point of the game IS community and living life as a ne'er-do-well- rogue sailor. But sadly, being a pirate back then wasn't as exciting as Hollywood has made it out to be.
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He also compares SOT to this childhood game called, 'FLARP,' which its winning trait is to physically inflict pain on each other with a basketball as if it was a dodgeball. They were bored and created their own fun ergo they had fun by hurting each other. SOT has that, but it's not as easy as others make it out to be. The Helmsman doesn't have control of the broadsides; the helmsman has to rely on the crew to man the cannon; the helmsman has to rely on their mental skills and not their game-based skills. The same can be applied to map reading, scoping, and swashbuckling. The game does progress your skills in order to kill other players, skullies, or beasties. The game doesn't give you progressively beefed up weapons, ammo, armor, health, etc. The game only tracks your ranking in the 3 Guilds. It's up to the human behind the controller/keyboard to do the rest.
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He also provides "solutions" that evoke POTC and Blackflag... Ruinscape economies .. PvP (Trouble-Waters analogy 19:34 is what the open ocean IS in SOT i.e. anything DOES happen and players DO loss all what they've been working toward within a 4-6 hr gaming session aka The Game Risk-Reward "sys" is what SOT is all about [not even the OutPost are safe havens; it all relies on the generosity or greed of a fellow human being]).. More Content desires do not take into account "Game as Service" (Updates don't "fix" the game; updates prolong a multi-faceted concept [there will always BE update as long as the game lives -- aye, lives, because when an online game closes, it dies with only its surviving community members willingness to ban together and do something about it]).
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Personal Observations on The SOT BackLash: Gamers are reacting the same way as "die-hard" Star Wars fans criticized THE LAST JEDI. Johnson wanted to take the franchise in a very different direction, and "fans" didn't like that direction. Aye, some did, but those that didn't were very vocal and started fantasizing their own headcanon about The Last Jedi that never was but could have been. RARE took the "Overwatch"/"Instant Gratification"/"Game as Product" gamer culture in a direction they weren't ready to go into, and now, those gamers are very eager in expressing their distaste yet desire of a game they wanted to get...
He is not comparing SoT with Overwatch, The Last of Us, etc, he says that all those games keep the players interested in the long run, because you want to know what happens with Joel and Ellie, or you want to improve new heroes in Overwatch, you want new perks or gadgets in CoD, etc.
In games like Minecraft, 7 Days to Die, Subanutica and other survival sandboxes there are countless mechanics, items and things to do, you can change your world at will, SoT lacks content, the freedom feels limited once you tried the few mechanics and gadgets avalaible, the world feels shallow and empty.
Not to mention survival sandboxes have a constant reason to progress: survival. I guess I can't speak for Subnautica but in Minecraft you have to build up some basic shelter to hide in for the night, and you need to get strong enough to deal with threats like Creepers who will impede your progress and threaten to destroy your home. Meanwhile in 7 Days to Die you have a countdown until hell breaks loose (hence the name of the game, as every 7 days triggers a Blood Horde), so you better get to work and start building up a proper shelter + defenses. Even before the 7th night you have to deal with roaming zombies and the like, and if you get infected you're forced to try and find an antidote before you die.
With MC and 7 Days it's all about establishing comfort and then taking risks to further increase your ability to deal with bigger and scarier threats. You can work together with others to accomplish these goals, or you can try to fight it out on your own; in 7 Days both options have different consequences and benefits since more players = more zombies that'll come.
Anyway... not saying Sea of Thieves should turn into a survival sandbox but players right now are the only real risk/threat to anything. A Kraken can be escaped, a storm can be avoided, and nothing else beyond skeleton cannons or one's own ineptitude can pose a threat to the ship.
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@lucid-stew more mission variety is a must. The only variance is found with the gold hoarders and even that is spurious.
Agree that any vertical progress would more hinder than help. Once that were added, greifing would multiply, as they'd actually be slowing progress, not just limiting your hat options.
@guybrushcrpwood your comment has been moderated. Can we please ask you to read the Sea of Thieves Official Forum Rules before making your next post.
@jim-voorhees said in The best SoT review I have seen:
@lucid-stew more mission variety is a must. The only variance is found with the gold hoarders and even that is spurious.
I'd rather see elements that let me create my own gameplay rather than rely on NPCs to dole out variations on the same tired tropes. There is no mission someone hasn't seen before in some form or another.
Instead of that, make it an actual sandbox. We have a shovel. Why can't we move dirt? We have a bucket. Why can't we make pools? We can pick things up. Why can't we pick up rocks, camp rubble, or other small things? We can put people in cannons, why not pigs, chickens, snakes, treasure chests GP barrels or anything else you can pick up? Why would you want to? What would you do? Who knows, but let's find out!
@guybrushcrpwood said in The best SoT review I have seen:
@lucid-stew I'm fairly certain pigs will fly before we can put pigs in cannons.
They could squeal when you fire.
@lucid-stew Honestly, if we could fire burning, berserker pigs onto enemy ships, I would never critique this game every again.
@jim-voorhees I would like to see people receive rep upon voyage completion so I feel like less of an jerk for robbing them. My primary focus is PvP and the only way I get any fun out of this game. Most of my rep comes from piracy, sunken ships, and skull forts. I just can't do the voyage grind. As you've pointed out the mission variety is... lackluster.
The time investment for progression is enormous though, and ganking some guy trying to mind his own business and grind out rep causing them to lose an hour or three in the process is going to drive people from this game like rats on a sinking ship.
Since I like the PvP (it needs refinement though) I am worried about player retention and interested in finding a middle ground that can facilitate that.
They're going to have to do better than pallet swaps to keep people grinding too. There needs to be a lot more customization options.
@lucid-stew oh yes, please excuse me. Forgot we are living in an age of fanboys being fanboys of fanboys. I'll never quite understand that one.
@CattaleyaAthena your post has been deleted due to the offensive nature of it. This is not permitted on the Forum.
Please read the Sea of Thieves Official Forum Rules before making any future posts.
Some people can't think "out-of-the-box". They pick up the established formula and judge everything according to that formula.
It's interesting that this review/rant criticizes SoT's "game loop", because the established formula is in fact to put players playing in such a loop.
Guess what, the "game loop" in Sea of Thieves not only is not boring but also does not exist! Because the voyages/quests are not it! You missed the point entirely! The voyages are merely some unimportant things you do once in a while, in the intervals of the "real stuff", that cleverly gets some loot on board ships and makes fights more risky/rewarding.
SoT is about what you do with your friends and with all the other crews you meet. Yes it's about the co-op, the battles, the occasional teaming up among crews, and all the infinitely different twists and stories that just pop up from these interactions (thanks to a very interesting world/ship mechanics, etc).
And when this is your focus (as it has been mine), the game is not repetitive EVER! Metaphorically speaking:
Somebody gave this guy a banana, he's eating the peel and complaining it's a fruit with a very big pit.
Some people prefer the established games with their established "game loops" and their established "rat-race" formulas. Awesome, go play those games and please stop pressuring Rare to change this unicorn of a game that some of us love exactly the way it is!
I suggest this other video instead (no, it's not mine):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xc4xxWSIlsThe problem with that, though, is that he's not suggesting SoT follow a formula - in fact, his review went out of its to point out consistency in lots of games with very different formulas. He's simply stating a straightforward fact, that every game adheres to ... There has to be something that creates interest / reward.
To say that player interaction and experiences IS that very loop is slightly flawed, since those experiences are largely the consequence of the mission and exploration systems. Ships encounter and adventures happen, because the core systems create them. Without the missions, without the exploration (and rewards) experience's wouldn't be happening. Or at least, they'd be far less exciting and far more forced.
@guybrushcrpwood
Good post. The one thing i like about the Act Man is that he will admit when hes wrong. Just like his apology vid about destiny 2. Ill be looking forward to his apology on this game as it becomes complete.@guybrushcrpwood said in The best SoT review I have seen:
The problem with that, though, is that he's not suggesting SoT follow a formula - in fact, his review went out of its to point out consistency in lots of games with very different formulas. He's simply stating a straightforward fact, that every game adheres to ... There has to be something that creates interest / reward.
And I am saying that SoT does have that something (at least for people like me). But that something isn't the voyages/quests. If he is eating the banana peel thinking it's the main part he will not find the banana appealing. But that's because he missed the point.
To say that player interaction and experiences IS that very loop
I did not say that the player interaction is the loop. I said the loop does not exist (at least not as the main point of interest/reward). The main point of interest/reward is the player interaction and is something even less boring because it is not a loop (i.e. not repetitive).
is slightly flawed, since those experiences are largely the consequence of the mission and exploration systems. Ships encounter and adventures happen, because the core systems create them. Without the missions, without the exploration (and rewards) experience's wouldn't be happening. Or at least, they'd be far less exciting and far more forced.
I agree that the missions enrich the player interactions. But, in my opinion, they should not be seen as the core of the game, just something that adds to it. And this review approached missions as if it was the game's main point (because it usually is the main point in other games that have missions).
@prof-mamadu said in The best SoT review I have seen:
Guess what, the "game loop" in Sea of Thieves not only is not boring but also does not exist! Because the voyages/quests are not it!
SoT is about what you do with your friends and with all the other crews you meet. Yes it's about the co-op, the battles, the occasional teaming up among crews, and all the infinitely different twists and stories that just pop up from these interactions (thanks to a very interesting world/ship mechanics, etc).
And when this is your focus (as it has been mine), the game is not repetitive EVER!I chopped your post up a bit to get to the heart of the matter. Going around and doing random stuff is not a loop. There are several different loops in SoT. The main loop in the game involves collecting things that you can sell to NPCs. That in itself contains several loops, because there is more than one way to do that. Pretty much all of those ways involve going to a location, fighting skeletons, grabbing loot, and taking it back to NPC.
The nice thing about SoT is that you can avoid that borefest and do whatever, like you describe. The bad thing about doing whatever is that there just isn't much whatever to do. Because the world ISNT that interesting, and the ship mechanics are fairly shallow. To say it's not repetitive is silly. What do call going from point A to point B for the millionth time? What do you call fighting the same enemy for the millionth time? What do you call digging up the same treasure in the same way for the millionth time? Ship battles boil down to a pretty simple concept: ram, board, kill. You technically have two ammo types for your cannon, but the problem with cannon is that your opponent can bail faster than the ship can sink. Because of this, cannonballs will only serve to inconvenience or momentarily deter. Due to the way wind works, and handbrake turns, sailing strategy doesn't really come in to play. You don't have to worry about tacking for advantage or anything like that. All you need to do is point your ship at the other ship until the two collide.
@prof-mamadu Couple things.
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You haven't explained why SoT can't or shouldn't have a well-constructed PvE that is fun in and of itself, but still accomplishes the goal of getting loot onto peoples' ships for risk and tension. Plenty of other games accomplish having a means of generating more risk and player interaction through PvE, but they also make the PvE very enjoyable and non-repetitive for those times when you don't encounter someone.
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The video you posted is by a guy who actually denounced what he said in that video in a future update, explaining that he was very wrong about SoT and that this first video was done with the expectation that the full game would be way more involved.
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Watched as much of the video as I could.
My takeaways
-He didn’t play or experience anything with such little time.
-Says other games with similar progression are fun because of rankings.
-Proceeds to make a huge deal about the “30 second rule” after admitting SoT has 3 hours of great fun and game play.The main point is you can simplify every game to its most basic objective and call it boring and repetitive, some people just need to understand that the problem isn’t the game, it’s them.
If it’s not for you, then move on. No need to waste tears about it.
@ironeye814 said in The best SoT review I have seen:
The main point is you can simplify every game to its most basic objective and call it boring and repetitive, some people just need to understand that the problem isn’t the game, it’s them.
It's pretty typical that when a person doesn't have any real rebuttal, they resort to attacking the person on the other side of the argument. The idea that the game is beyond reproach, and that anyone who disagrees is the issue is an inherently flawed, circular argument. But that's the state the forum is getting to. We've already seen plenty of "love it or leave it" and "dont let the door hit your patootie on the way out". It doesn't benefit people who like this game if others abandon it in droves, so feeling superior about your enjoyment and disdainful of others' scorn doesn't really get the community anywhere.
@lucid-stew said in The best SoT review I have seen:
@prof-mamadu said in The best SoT review I have seen:
Guess what, the "game loop" in Sea of Thieves not only is not boring but also does not exist! Because the voyages/quests are not it!
SoT is about what you do with your friends and with all the other crews you meet. Yes it's about the co-op, the battles, the occasional teaming up among crews, and all the infinitely different twists and stories that just pop up from these interactions (thanks to a very interesting world/ship mechanics, etc).
And when this is your focus (as it has been mine), the game is not repetitive EVER!I chopped your post up a bit to get to the heart of the matter. Going around and doing random stuff is not a loop.
Exactly! And that's why i said that in SoT the MAIN things to do aren't loops! You're just proving my point.
There are several different loops in SoT. The main loop in the game involves collecting things that you can sell to NPCs.
When you use the word "main" here it can be deceiving. Because in my view that is NOT the main thing to do in SoT. That's what you do in the "intervals" of the "main" stuff, as i have said.
That in itself contains several loops, because there is more than one way to do that. Pretty much all of those ways involve going to a location, fighting skeletons, grabbing loot, and taking it back to NPC.
Agreed. But since that isn't the main thing then what is repetitive in SoT isn't the main thing.
The nice thing about SoT is that you can avoid that borefest and do whatever, like you describe. The bad thing about doing whatever is that there just isn't much whatever to do. Because the world ISNT that interesting, and the ship mechanics are fairly shallow.
This is another tricky part: the mechanics are simple, but that doesn't mean the variety of situations it promotes is shallow at all! In fact, I find myself in this game having much more freedom of action than other games in general.
To say it's not repetitive is silly. What do call going from point A to point B for the millionth time?
This is about the quests (not main thing).
What do you call fighting the same enemy for the millionth time?
I'm sorry, I don't know how you play this game. I don't fight the same enemy more than maybe 3 times max.
What do you call digging up the same treasure in the same way for the millionth time?
You're mixing quests (loops) with the "main stuff"? I know the quests are repetitive, I've never denied that. But I don't see them as the main activity in this game, that's my point! I think I repeated this often enough.
Ship battles boil down to a pretty simple concept: ram, board, kill.
I'm sorry you lack imagination:
When i encounter another ship i use a myriad of different approaches depending on things like: is other ship parked or moving? how are they moving? has the other crew seen us? do they have treasure? do we? do we have explosives? do they? what appears to be their skills in different aspects? and ours? how many resources do we have? are there forts or towers nearby? what about islands or rocks? are they going to an outpost? what's their ship type and what's ours? what's the direction of the wind in relation to our movements/targets, etc etc etc
Freedom of action is HUGE, including (but not limited to): ramming (not my first option btw), shooting cannons (shooting above deck with very different purpose than shooting below deck), sneaking, stealing, sniping, using explosives (different ways to do it), driving enemy boat away or against rocks, attempting conversation/team up, steering between rocks, shooting from forts, shooting yourself from cannon and boarding, melee, etc. And all these types of actions can be combined in different sequences and the micro-stories always play out differently (with players like me, at least).
And when you add to this the strategic options available when there are encounters of 3 or more ships, skull fort situations, the occasional kraken, etc... i answer you:
No, the main stuff you do in the game isn't repetitive and i wouldn't even call it a loop.. unless you focus on the quests or you lack imagination or you choose to play the same recipe over and over again. But that's in your hands.But the 'main things to do' are loops. As we've repeatedly said, the PVP experiences are the byproduct of the games core gameplay loops.
There won't be other ships to sink, booty to steal, or plunder to protect, without a core system that keeps people engaging with the wider world.
We seem to be getting into a false dichotomy of PVE or PVP ... which isn't correct. The gameplay loop of SoT is made of both ... the desire to do something, and the reward of the things that happen along the way. You can't have the latter without the former.
@haydnsym45
My fav game growing up and I'd still say it's the best pirate game I've played including SoT.
It's available on xbox backwards compatibility and a must buy for all.@natsu-v2 said in The best SoT review I have seen:
@prof-mamadu Couple things.
- You haven't explained why SoT can't or shouldn't have a well-constructed PvE that is fun in and of itself, but still accomplishes the goal of getting loot onto peoples' ships for risk and tension. Plenty of other games accomplish having a means of generating more risk and player interaction through PvE, but they also make the PvE very enjoyable and non-repetitive for those times when you don't encounter someone.
I don't say that it couldn't or shouldn't, only that it doesn't need to. Of course if they do enrich PvE that's only a plus, it's a good thing. But the players who NEED that are those that missed the point of the game (imho), are those who have misunderstood the quests as being the main thing.
So sure I'm not against enriching PvE to attract those players as well. But because those players "missed the point", they also want this game to become like many others, by pressuring for certain changes that, in my view, DESTROY what this game has of special. They want things like "safe zones", separation of PvE and PvP servers, making PvP more difficult to occur or less rewarding, etc. (and please let's not make this a huge conversation about these other topics, there are already MEGA threads about it).- The video you posted is by a guy who actually denounced what he said in that video in a future update, explaining that he was very wrong about SoT and that this first video was done with the expectation that the full game would be way more involved.
Alright. I don't back up the guy or even the whole video. I just think the video makes some interesting points about how SoT is important for gaming. The guy is free to change his mind about his video but i haven't. I have been playing SoT in alphas, betas, pioneer, and almost every day since launch, and I continue to agree that SoT should keep its main focus as it is and not give in to the pressure of becoming "Yet Another Videogame". Even if it's just for the sake of variety and to satisfy a different type of players who love this game exactly as it is.
@prof-mamadu Again, you, as an evident PVP fan (as am I) also 'need' PVE to be enriched. Because if it isn't, the PVP you enjoy at the moment will not have much longevity ... not unless the options for encounter become more dynamic.
Remember, without PVE, SoT becomes nothing more than a death match. Galleons won't run away. People won't be trying to steal your treasure. And the game becomes nothing more than a dumbed down Black Wake.
The two aspects compliment each other. For PVP to stay fun, fresh, and exciting, it needs PVE that is fun, fresh, and exciting.
@guybrushcrpwood You CAN have ship fights and player fights without treasures from quests. You could have a game where players are just searching for other players to sink ships and kill each other. Sure it wouldn't be such an interesting game (no argument there) but no, the PvP is not a byproduct of quests, the PvP is only enriched by quests and booty.
@prof-mamadu Of course you can. But the point we're making is that it's everything else in the game that enriches the PVP experience.
If you want to see what SoT would be like without incentives to 'do stuff', have a gander at Black Wake. It's a cracking game, but encounters boil down to 'fight fight fight', as opposed to the presently unpredictable, and far more 'adventure esque' experiences of SoT.
We're not arguing that this game is bad. We're just stating that unless everything else beyond PVP provides more longevity, then the best aspect of the game will get stale.
@guybrushcrpwood
To clarify:
1- I'm not against enriching quests and PvE, i think that ALONE will make the game better, including the PvP.
2- I am against some other "demands" that players who want more PvE tend to make (safe zones, etc that i mentioned in previous comment).
3- Regardless of the improvements the game can still get from point 1, I ALREADY love the game as it is so point 1 is not a NEED to me, just a possible improvement. On the other hand, things like point 2 would ruin the game for me and for those who love this game for what it is, and i'm affraid requests for 1 and 2 are coming from the same people (those who are missing the point of SoT). And I would hate to see Rare giving in to 2.
4- I can't predict the longevity of the game but like someone already mentioned in this thread, since one server only requires about 4 crews, I don't think any time soon i'll log in and not be able to find a server with enough people.
5- You may not be arguing that this game is bad, but some people in this thread and the video itself are. And that's what I'm speaking out against."Overwatch: Has a cosmetic progression system, yes. The incentive to play it, is because it's fun. It feels good to do well in that game. There is a competitive mode where you can rank up, you chase a number, the incentive is chasing that number."
Hmm, and SoT isn't fun?
I have done well in the game and it felt good, I have done poorly in the game and felt bad.
Just need a leaderboard I guess to chase a number.I have Overwatch and SoT. Playing SoT.
@mudweller sagte in The best SoT review I have seen:
@natsu-v2 I think this review is right.
I just pvp now when and if I play. The single game loop of fetch quests just gets really old with the harsh diminishing returns and the unclear voyage upgrade system.
You can literally sail for 20 minutes and get a castaway chest for a voyage you paid over a 100 gold for. It's a pathetic system to cover up from their lack of content.
Pirate Legend is a painful empty process.
No, it's not pathetic. It is random. You cry about not getting your promised captains chest and you're spoiled by loot systems like in Diablo 3 where everything is a match and a promised upgrade.
Video in OP states "No Content in Game"....then FAILS to prove this point. He just rambles on about how he loves Pirates but hated having to pay $60 for the game. He wanted something like PubG or Fortnite where it's free.
Rare and Dev Team really need to start cracking down on these repeated post screaming "No Content" or "We Need More Content" because it's killing any real discussion on the actual game, that currently has plenty of content.
The lack of content is what's missing between these people ears and their inability to play and enjoy what's in the game as it's a lot. I've played Warcraft since launch and found more "lack of content" and "repetitive" game-play there than I have in SoT since it launched and I play 2-3 hours every single night.
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