All great points, had the same idea on the last one as well. My crew are having similar Reaper experiences since Wednesday's balance patch and have now boycotted Reaper's until a better balance patch comes out. 2 hours of gameplay for 1/3 of level 40-41 from sinking 2 grade 2 emissary ships is a waste of time. We had more fun doing merchant emissary....MERCHANT EMISSARY!!! There is something wrong when a PvP crew would rather do that than play a fighting faction...

@bugaboo-bill thats what I wanted to do from the very beginning :D Be an emissary of OoS for example and go sink reapers being able to sell their flag to OoS. Sinking those who actually want to fight.

What the OP suggested as last point was my first impression how the reapers should work. Being able to sell all loot, though that one is less feasable then selling a stolen one.

@bugaboo-bill said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:

@chronodusk sagte in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:

It has to be said. This feature is not going to do well. Reaper's Bones had the potential to be something great, but will never reach that potential in its current state.

I understand the need to reduce the value of loot, as it was overpowered and simply leading to Reapers choosing more PvE over PvP. But it is now impossible to progress in Reaper's Bones, simply because the Emissaries aren't there to sink, and sessions that actually have any Emissaries are very short-lived as the players will just log out and server hop after being sunk.

The progression and intended gameplay for this trading company relies on something that just isn't there - other Emissary players.

Here's how our session playing as Reaper's Bones Emissaries went tonight:

-We set out for a fort. We sunk the Brigantine there. They came back, sunk us once, then we came back and sunk them again. And we sunk them again about 3 more times after since they kept coming back. We had no progression through Reaper's Bones to show for all of this PvP we had been doing

But wait-- get this!

I got Reaper's Bones grade progression by picking up a damn Elaborate Flagon out of a shipwreck. Albeit, a small amount, but still more than what I got out of doing battle with another ship.

We claimed the fort, and turned in some of the most valuable items in the game for almost no reputation. We then sailed around the map for a solid hour and a half looking for Emissary players, desperate to increase our grade to level 5 and maybe possibly make some sort of progress in this company.

But to no avail.

The only other Emissary we found lowered its flag at an outpost at our approach. Yet another disappointing experience with Reaper's Bones.

How can you call this a PvP trading company when you're only rewarded for PvP under the specific and extremely uncommon circumstance that the other crew is an Emissary?

You have built a system of progression that relies on something that just isn't there. To add insult to injury, you completely gimped the fallback method of progressing by turning in loot. So if I can't find any Emissaries, and I can't really use loot to effectively supplement what I'm not finding in other Emissary ships, how the hell do you expect players to progress?

Apart from just not being able to progress, there's nothing more disappointing than logging on specifically to experience the thrill of playing the PvP trading company, and ending up having an experience that's no more thrilling than ferrying chickens and pigs to outposts for the Merchant Alliance.

---

Suggestions:

The cowardice and cluelessness of this playerbase is going to sink Reaper's Bones gameplay. People won't play as Emissaries because they #1 don't know what they are or what they hell they're for, or #2 see a grade 5 Reaper and leave the server.

1) Show Reapers on the map, but do not show their grade

There is no reason to show the grade of the Reaper on the map. This only encourages would-be Emissary players to server-hop once they see a Grade 5 Reaper on the server. Let the player discover the danger of that crew on their own.

2) Do something, anything, to let players know that just after they reach level 15, they can become an Emissary and boost the hell out of their trading company progression

This game does not do a good job of explaining what an Emissary is or what there is to gain from it. I'm sure that if players knew what they could gain from being an Emissary, they'd be a little more willing to take that risk.

The number of players I see who are utterly clueless about this concept is insane, but then I realize that if I didn't keep up with this game on socials and the forums, I probably wouldn't know either.

3) Stolen Loot should provide the amount of reputation that we were getting before the nerf patch

Seriously, this rewards PvP so well. And yes, Alliance servers will farm this sadly, but nobody, not even Rare seems to care that they farm and abuse the alliance system all day anyway and trade Athena chests to count them as "stolen"

I like to hunt Reaper Ships, just to say. They are visible, some run away, but some dont and sink.

Why did nobody post it before the release in Insiders???

No one posted the level gain PvE issue with Reaper's before in Insiders:
#1 because not everyone plays insiders for 6-10 hours a session grinding out forts and
#2 there are no alliance servers in Insiders grinding out FotD 24/7.

They should add a bonus for the other companies when you turn in your grade V flag while there are reaper crews on the server.

Or

If you sink without being an emissary a little white flag floats up for the reaper crew to collect.

Also I think only grade V reaper should give its location on the map.

So, this patch definitely nerfed Reapers hard into the ground. Of that, there is no question.

I can certainly attest to your frustration however. I will fully acknowledge that if I join a server hoping to grind out an Emissary, I check right away if there is a reaper, and if its Grade V, I leave. Plain and simple. I have no desire to Solo Sloop (or if with a Crew that does not want to engage in PVP - which I remind you is not required) a server grind where I might get sunk and ostensibly obtain Zero progress in my emissary (or just progress with Rep/Gold/Commendations etc etc). But that is the point right? Progress.

Let me be clear, I am not going to argue the merits of "its a Pirate Game" or "PvP is part of it" or even "The fun is the Risk". They are subjective to each player and RARE has been quite clear they are trying to balance the broad player-base. The game is what it is, but that does not mean its not without flaws or frustrations. That being said, people do not enjoy sinking when there is ZERO progress. I would even go so far as to say that if there WAS some form of retained progress, even when sunk, that being sunk would not be as big a deal as it currently is and you would not see as many people avoiding PVP, or doing alliance servers, or even server hopping to avoid Reapers as we do now. (Its all conjecture of course but its my perspective)

Imagine this (Hypothetical scenario): A player decided to join a server and grind out OoS Emissary. They spend say 1 hour grinding it to G-5 only to then be sunk by a Reaper. Outside of OoS mileage, potential commendations unrelated to turn-ins, they get NOTHING upon being sunk. No Gold, No Rep, No progress. That hour is WASTED. Plain and Simple.

Now lets imagine that same OoS player stays on the server to try again, only now the Reaper is Grade V, and they can see every place they go. They cannot hide, cannot properly grind up because they are being attacked over and over and over again. Now their skill in PvP not withstanding, they keep sinking, and thus losing progress. (Maybe they even try to fight back and give it a good go, but still lose) Its a Turn off to continuously work with no payout or progress. The Risk (over time) becomes too great for the Reward, more so from a Time investment. The Result?: They leave the server, they have the learned behavior of leaving when they see a reaper, or turning in loot sooner, and thus ignoring the entire reason Emissaries were added in the first place (which was to help encourage retaining loot).

Now the other side. That Reaper player is NOT doing anything wrong. They are just playing the game exactly as its supposed to be. Only now because they are being hyper aggressive (which is part of the playstyle) to every player they see, especially emissaries. They gain the progress, but as a result, they DENY progress to everyone else. Its not malicious, but even if by design, over time its a turn off. The result?: They end up in empty servers, with lower player counts, or if players are in the server, them being a reaper causes everyone else to refuse to be an Emissary.

Now we get to the issue at hand; Reapers not being able to progress due to the nerf.

I stand by the nerf is way to much. While I agree that as a PVP faction, PVP should be the primary way to level up "Quickly", there should always be a fall back in the event that PVP is just not available; be it from Forts/Fleets/ Regular Voyages.

I am torn on the suggestion over adding a way to gain rep by sinking "Non-Emissary" ships, but I do see merit in it. Still I think perhaps loot value should just go back to where it was pre-patch instead of essentially adding additional punishment to players whom you your self already acknowledged might not be emissaries because they don't understand it. (Again not everyone has to be an Emissary, but not everyone knows how to be an Emissary - so I agree that more in-game tutorials should be added)

While I do like the idea of not showing the Reaper Emissary Rank, I think it would be fruitless. People already leave servers when they see a Reaper regardless of Rank - Grade 5 just seems to be the cut off of whether they grind for a bit BEFORE leaving. Even before, I can still attest that when you see a player with a Standard Reaper flag, players who don't want PVP tend to avoid them or leave the server. (Not saying its right, but that is the behavior that is exhibited)

Overall, my main issue is that they created a Faction that while I understand was meant to encourage PVP and loot retention, the issue with people not engaging in PVP was not because (at least not outright) they hate PVP or because they were not skilled enough; it is because there is no RETAINED PROGRESS. In my opinion, on paper, the idea of an "All in - constant At Risk" game is great. On paper. But in practice I think its more flawed than even RARE is willing to acknowledge.

This is Not Rust, or Ark. (Games built with a Hardcore mindset from the ground up) This is a game made by Rare, advertised and given access to an overall, younger or more causal audience. Not a bad thing, but it is what it is.

If I could make a change, I would revert the most recent Patch. It nerfed Reapers to the ground, and makes them less viable when PVP is not present. While not the "right way" I still stand by that Reapers should be able to progress the same way as any other faction. Instead of being punished for PVP not being available, they should instead get BONUS's when it is found. (Be it double rep/gold etc etc, when getting stuff from PVP - while regular stuff is just standard. Instead they just nerfed the standard and did nothing for the bonus)

Heck even as a byproduct of this update, other Factions are now even more of a grind which based on the responses to the Dev poste that was just made, is clearly not what players want. Grind does not equal Fun. (Depending on how its implemented at least).

The final thing I will say (apologies for the long post but its a big issue) is that PVP is NOT a requirement for this game, and it should NOT be forced. It should be something that occurs organically, perhaps encouraged from time to time, but NOT a requirement, and I stand by that alongside the Reapers Bones. I do agree that PVP should be the key method of progress, The Reapers should not be punished, simply because other players do NOT want PVP. They NEED a fall back method. This patch destroyed your fall back.

To Rare: This patch should be reverted, or re-assessed with that in mind. (PErsonally I say you should have just doubled down on Arena and the Sea Dogs for PVP, but hey that's a WHOLE separate discussion.

I agree with OP's point. I thought from the wording of the patch notes, which appeared clear at first to me, that stolen flags would be able to be turned into whatever emissary company we agreed to work for. A balance patch after the alliance serve damage was done, balanced around the few alliance server grinders. Crushed most peoples first couple day experience of the patch with untested changes after enjoying the rate things were moving for them during play sessions.

The discrimination against reapers bones that keeps crews from flying an emissary flag or just leaving the server upon checking the map for reapers and seeing one. Was this not expected to happen to them.

The faction is now just a side job that will level passively as we're forced to turn in stolen flags from other emissary company's there, like fish to sea post's. Now instead of playing reapers, we just gear up and go after them for the flag turn in and do other emissary company stuff along the way.

Side not: I always bring some loot to make the deck shine and entice combat and provide reward when we lose the battle.

it's not a truly PvP faction. You can sell anything to them so they're more like a pawn-shop faction. Only few commendations are for PvP.

It does surprise me that any loot can be sold at the Reaper's Hideout, however it was gained, and regardless of whether you are a Reaper's Emissary or not. Doing PvE events - such as cheesing the FoTD - to gain stripes on your flag, the increased payouts, and world rankings did seem against the whole idea of the Reaper's Bones faction.

I would suggest two changes:

1. Only stolen loot, plus perhaps Reaper's chests and Gifts, should be accepted by the Reaper's Bone company or, at least, only stolen loot should be worth anything. The game has a number of commendations based on stolen, or gifted, items - such as stolen Athena chests or given gifts - so I presume every item has a flag that shows its "original" owner, that is: the person or crew that first picked it up. If someone from another crew then cashes it in, it counts as "stolen" (or gifted). So, it should be possible for the Reaper's Bones to reward stolen loot highly, but not "found" loot.
2. Put a small white "non-aligned" pennant on the stern flagstaff of every ship. Allow Reaper's to sell this to the company for a small amount; certainly no more than a one-stripe emmisary flag. This pennant would be on every newly spawned ship, but cannot be voted down. A fresh "non-aligned" pennant would also replace any emmisary flag that a crew votes down. I do not suggest that Level 5 Reapers should be able to see "non-aligned" ships on the map; but it would mean every ship has something worth sinking them for.

I agree with everything you said. Except the thing about ferrying chicken and pigs. I love chasing pigs. I have weird tastes.

I made a thread about what im going to say already but since this thread has more attention i will post it here too:

I think Reapers should be not visible on the map at all. I mean why would you tell everyone that you are there. Should you not be a hunter? This would prevent people from leaving server because they simply cant know. The Tier V reward should stay as it is. This would be the high risk high reward for other emissaries. Maybe make a global sound when a Reaper reaches Tier V. This gives other emissaries still a little bit time to get to safety and its not that obvious.

Also you can check if there is a Reaper on the map with checking the emissary table anyway.

@ultimate-powa said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:

Yeah if I see a reaper on the map, I either take a rowboat with gunpowder over to their location to sink them or hop into a new lobby.

I will NEVER keep an Emissary flag up with a Reaper in the lobby because it's just not logical.

At the very least, they need to make it so that the grade of the Reaper is not visible. No Emissary in their right mind is going to stay on a server to farm their Emissary if they know that there's a grade 5 Reaper who will see them.

They just server hop, and that takes away from the Reaper's Bones experience.

Another thing they should do:

Do not allow players to see any Emissaries on the tables unless they themselves have voted to become Emissary, and make a cooldown for when you can vote to become Emissary after pulling the flag down.

This will force people to blindly become Emissaries on the server they're on and not server hop because then they would have a cool down.

These are definitely issues with the current system. Seeing grade V reapers on the map then leaving servers immediately is absolutely an issue. Every time I've gotten to Reaper's rank V there are either no ships left, or the ones left make a break for the outposts then log off. Hiding a reaper's rank on the map is an interesting idea as you mentioned. They could also give some kind of extra bonus reward for crews who raise their PvE emissary flag on a server with a reaper already active, since it is a big risk, especially a rank V. Seems like a significant oversight that this wasn't part of the emissary system.

I agree, feels like the whole company needs rethinking.

I play solo sloop most of the time, and if I see a reapers on the map I won't even consider picking up emissary. Usually I just go kamikaze at the reaper and see if they quit, if not, then I'll find another server. There just is no point in doing emissary when the GPS system makes sure you'll never be able to sell anything. And especially now when solo slooping is much worse due to revive.

Just give a bit more rank for reapers for picking up loot and remove both GPS tracking and reaper from showing on map. It's much more exciting when there's fog of war and you'll never know what that ship on the horizon is...

@chronodusk The best solution - and I’ve mentioned this elsewhere - is to dispense with two things: the whole minimap idea, and the ships on tables at the outpost.

Instead, do as they do with Skellie Ships. You can see Emissaries a good distance away. What if, as they got closer (when you can see the actual sail position), you could look through the spyglass and hear what faction they were. Prior to that you wouldn’t know - you’d just know it was an Emissary of some kind.

Imagine the dread of hearing an ominous music cue when you spy a Reaper coming at you. Much more immersive and, since there’s nobody on a map, you won’t have people dropping flags the minute they see a Reaper V. You’d see more emissaries over all, I think, because player’s wouldn’t automatically know a Reaper was on the seas. And, you could do things like plan routes to ambush... something you can’t currently do because they see you wherever you are.

I love the idea of the Emissaries and the Reaper’s Bones, but I think there is a missed opportunity to make it something immersive, exciting, and a very Pirate experience.

@entspeak Why would we need a separate sound for each faction when their back flag is already there?

Reaper's Bones- Pointed Shape
Gold Hoarders- Three Prongs
Order of Souls- Square
Merchant Alliance- Rounded
Athena's Fortune- One Prong

Here's an easy solution or two.

Add commendations for sinking reaper ships as other factions

OR

Prevent emissary flags from reaching grade 5 unless a reaper ship is in the server, that way, Reaper grade 5 is only useful when other ships are in, and other ships grade 5 is only useful when reapers are in.

@klutchxking518 Because, depending on the way the ship is facing, you can’t always see the flag.

And, why do you “need” a sound for Skellie Ships? It’s easy to discern them from player ships, and, so... you don’t need a sound and, yet... it adds dimension to the experience.

@klutchxking518 I do think you should be able to sell Reaper flags to your trading company as reward for sinking a Reaper. Beyond that, I don’t see why you would need more than that.

Reapers are the PvP faction.

And limiting people’s ability to hit Grade V unless there’s a Reaper on the map doesn’t make much sense. Sounds like a rule and not a tool.

@viperishemu2992 But you can do this right now. You can play the game as normal without doing any of the Ships of Fortune stuff. You can even turn in at the Reaper’s Hideout and level that faction up without becoming an emissary. It’s slower, but for those who weren’t PL before it’s not slower than it was prior to the update.