Sloop Speed: The finality.

@danish-crusader said in Sloop Speed: The finality.:

You also have to remember that the Sloop in Sea of Thieves is not actually a Sloop, it is a Cog, with the name "Sloop".
Just thought I'd mention that =P

While the Sea of Thieves sloop may resemble a cog, it's really modeled after a simplified sloop. The riggings are vastly simplified since our sloop is crewed by one or two people, rather than the eighty or so a real pirate sloop might have carried. That's why our sloop is square-rigged (like a cog) whereas most (but not all) period sloops I've seen were fore-and-aft rigged. I think this is probably the source of confusion. But to me, it's still more "sloop" than "cog."

Honestly, I've read so many conflicting sources about what qualifies as a "sloop" it makes my head spin. I've come to the conclusion it's a much more generic term. By that standard, I see no reason why our sloop is any less authentic than any other.

@genuine-heather said in Sloop Speed: The finality.:

@fluidsc Well no. If you actually bothered to read the article you posted, you’d understand that it discussed the sloop-of-war, which is not the same as a sloop. Sloop-of-war is a more generic nomenclature for a variety of vessels employed by the Royal Navy from the late 18th century onward. The term referred more to the role of the vessel than the design, thus the subcategories such as “ship sloop” (three masts) and “brig sloop” (two masts).

Sloops during the Golden Age of Piracy (1650 to 1725) were defined as single-masted, square sailed vessels. What you have pictured is an 1854 U.S. Navy sloop-of-war. It is not a sloop.

I didn't bother to read? We are talking about sloops that go as fast as what the OP stated. And this is what you did not bother to read:

Ship sloop
The first three-masted (i.e. "ship rigged") sloops appeared during the 1740s, and from the mid-1750s most new sloops were built with a three-masted (ship) rig. The third sail afforded the sloop greater mobility and the ability to back sail.

It has been said repeatedly that this game does NOT take place during the "golden-age of piracy".

@fluidsc You didn't do much research before you posted that did you? You did not even attempt to read the article, did you? That's sad.

Here let me quote directly from the source you provided within the first two sentences, eh?

"The rating system covered all vessels with 20 guns and above; thus, the term sloop-of-war encompassed all the unrated combat vessels, including the very small gun-brigs and cutters."
source

That is correct, if you are able to follow along now. Sloop of War was the rating they gave to any ship that had under 20 guns for combat only. So any brig's, cutters, fire ships, bomb ships all of those would be considered a sloop of war no matter how many sails it had as long as they had less then 20 cannons in a military ranking for combat vessels. Technically, all the ships in the Sea of Thieves are Sloops of War because they all have less then 20 cannons.

Edit: Oh yes. This is in response to what you said to Heather. Yes, a single mast sloop will go up to 23 knots. It does not need to have those extra sails as you seem to think to make it go that fast. One sail is all it took. Sloops are fast. That picture you showed that ship would probably get around 14 knots at best. Not exactly a good example.

@fluidsc I would like those sources that say the game did not take place during the 16th century. I remember them saying the game was modeled around 16th century vessels. Not exactly Golden Age inspired but just the time period itself for the models of the ships.

And with that bit of source you linked, again, the term sloop here falls under the military definition. Any ship with less then 20 cannons but serves in a official naval fleet would be classified as a "sloop". So that 3 masted sloop you linked is not really a sloop but a naval vessel that had less then 20 cannons. Here, here is the link the give as well within that same wiki block that directs you to another page that gives a more in depth explanation of what that means.

@fluidsc said in Sloop Speed: The finality.:

The first three-masted (i.e. "ship rigged") sloops appeared during the 1740s, and from the mid-1750s most new sloops were built with a three-masted (ship) rig. The third sail afforded the sloop greater mobility and the ability to back sail.*

I read the article you posted quite carefully, and you're still wrong. Listen, I don't know why you're so keen to argue. I'm pretty well researched on this stuff (i.e. I've done more reading than just a Wikipedia page). A "ship" specifically referred to a three-masted vessel. That's why the quote you just posted explicitly states a "ship sloop" as opposed to a simple "sloop." They are not one and the same. Furthermore, although the Sea of Thieves is a fictional world taken out of space and time, it is definitely and deliberately styled after the Golden Age of Piracy. Ships outside of that era do not appear, including three-masted "ship sloops." That's why the sloop in the game is a single-masted vessel, which is the appropriate model for the era. The terminology matches that used during the Golden Age of Piracy. Rare got it right.

the wikipedia article for cog has a ship that is the spitting image of the SoT sloop.

@khompewtur Just the way the deck layout is. But a cog is a flat-bottomed vessel. That is the main difference. Which is very important to remember. The majority of single masted vessels had decks and rails built in that style. All you have to do is google sloop and you will see that a lot of them have the same layout as a cog.

The difference is the flat bottom. Our sloop does not have a flat bottom. It is rounded with a spine(keel) that runs the entire length.

@mr-dragon-raaar Well it is possible it could be but then I am sure they have said they have modeled the ships around things in the 16th century so that type of ship would not have been made then.

All of the examples and things I have put out there in my OP have been from ships from the 1590-1690 periods of time.

@mr-dragon-raaar The Golden Age did run from 1650 to 1730 so the game's design were set in the Golden Age for the most part. That ship could still be the one they modeled after the sloop. I have no way of knowing nor does it really matter too much. As it wasn't until the end of the 17th century and going into the 18th when ship designs really started to go under a major overhaul.

I can imagine that the sloop you mentioned would be about the same as one in the game. It wasn't until the late 17th century when the world started to undergo the second and quieter age of sail.

The sloop is hard mode. You're never forced to play hard mode. Stop trying to make Sea of Thieves easier and easier and easier.

@shinten-rai dijo en Sloop Speed: The finality.:

I have seen many posts on how the sloop is the slowest ship. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

The sloop is the ship that is supposed to be able to outsail any vessel. It should let you be able to escape from a brig or galleon unless they get the jump on you. With the wind or against the wind. It should be very fast.

This game is not supposed to be historical accurate at all, but if I was designing my game to be built around 16th century vessels. I would probably at least do some research into, ya know, how they worked. And I really feel Rare did nothing of that sort. Galleons would reach bout 5 knots max. A Brig would reach about 11 knots max. A sloop would reach about 20 to 23 knots max. The galleon is a Indiaman, it is so obvious. The Brig is a Caravel(to me, it does not feel like a actual Brig or a Brigantine so I am doing it a big favor by letting it use the 11 knots of the Brig and not using the speed of either a Brigantine or a Caravel which is remarkably slower) . The sloop is a sloop.

And it's like look, I get it. It would be very boring sailing in a galleon or brig in the game only reaching a max speed of 5 or 6 knots with full wind. It would be boring. And that's okay. They can totally make those ships have a faster sailing speed. But if they up those ships speed, then they have to up the sloops speed.

A galleon or a brig, should never be able to ever in a million years think they would be able to catch up to a sloop. Ever.

It really makes me sad seeing how little research or thought went into the ships during development. They make a pirate game. And they make the ONE SHIP THAT PIRATES WOULD ACTUALLY USE THE MOST and make it so the others can be able to catch up to them at any given time unless they are into the wind. Pirates used sloops. They used sloops!!!!

It irks me when Rare has taken the classic pirating vessel and has designed the other ships to be able to catch up to this ship. That would never, ever happen. Ever. EVER. The majority of actual pirates used sloops. Small fleets of sloops. Why? Cause you can catch up to the merchant Indiaman only going 5 knots. You would not really see for example a pirate galleon chasing down a ship. You might, it is possible, but it would be rare. If the band of pirates had a big ship like that, they would try to keep in hidden until it was needed to fight the big boys that would eventually come. Like Blackbeard! He had a big ol' ship. A frigate, and even that, a ship literally built for speed and warfare only had a max speed of 8 knots. It wasn't until 1777 when the French came out with the second generation frigs that could reach up to 14 knots. Blackbeard died in 1718. Blackbeard also had plenty of sloops in his band. After the Queen Annes ran aground, he escaped using the Adventure, the sloop.

But to wrap up this rant/ history lesson. The sloop needs to go twice as fast in my opinion. Only a sloop should be able to catch a sloop.

The balance between ships is something like this:
http://oi67.tinypic.com/33mrais.jpg

And I think it's perfect. Every ship has strengths and weaknesses, as it should be. Videogames are not realistic. You can outrun any ship against wind, so in some term, it's the faster ship. But don't expect to outrun a galleon with full wind. More sails, more wind catched, more speed. That's the logic ingame, and you should be able to use that in your favor.

@mr-dragon-raaar said in Sloop Speed: The finality.:

@Shinten-Rai @Genuine-Heather I always just assumed the SoT sloop was based on the 17th century Bermuda sloop with its single-mast square rigging (until sometime in 19th century - when it got the triangular Bermuda rigging).
This was favoured by the privateers since they just converted the merchantmen (which were obviously built for speed).
They were particularly great at sailing upwind and so would be able to outrun any ship by just turning that way (this is likely where the SoT mechanic comes from).

Neither of you have mentioned this so curious what you think?

edit: would love the SoT sloop to have the speed but I doubt that'll ever change now :)

The Jamaican and Bermuda sloops were much sought-after vessels during the Golden Age of Piracy. They're distinguished not so much for their rigging, which could vary from ship to ship, but their basic construction. They were built for the explicit purpose of evading other vessels. One of the features that set them apart from "standard" sloops was a slanted main mast. Thus it's clear that our friendly sloops in Sea of Thieves weren't precisely modeled after either Bermuda or Jamaican sloops.

Here's an exert from an excellent book on the topic, titled Under the Black Flag: The Romance and Reality of Life Among the Pirates by David Cordingly:

"The frequent attacks on merchantmen in the Caribbean by buccaneers and French privateers in the years around 1700 led to a demand for vessels fast enough to escape capture. The result was that shipbuilders in Jamaica developed a sloop which acquired an enviable reputation for seaworthiness and speed. The Jamaica sloop was built of red cedar and had a low freeboard and a steeply raked mast."

"Similar in her lines and rig and equally renowned for her speed was the Bermuda sloop, which was built in considerable numbers and was much in demand by traders and privateers. Of the ten vessels provided with privateer commissions by the Governor of Jamaica in 1715, four are sloops, one is a galley, one a snow, and the remainder are not specified."

In the Architectura Navalis Mercatoria by Fredrik Henrik af Chapman (published in 1768), we find the following line-drawing of a Bermuda style sloop:

This single-masted vessel carried ten four-pounder guns on deck and twelve swivel guns.

In Under the Black Flag, Cordingly added:

"From the existing evidence we cannot be certain exactly what type of sloop the pirates most frequently used, particularly as details are rarely given of their rig. However, we know that pirates needed vessels that were swift and well armed, so it would be reasonable to assume that many pirate sloops closely resembled the Bermuda sloops or the Jamaica sloops. By the time the pirates had fitted out these merchant vessels with more guns, they must have been almost indistinguishable from the naval sloops like HMS Ferret, and the sloop shown in the 'View of Boston Light.'"

As a side note, the HMS Ferret was also a single-masted vessel, as modeled here:

In the Architectura Navalis, sloops are unvaryingly depicted as small, single-masted vessels. Nevertheless, these same ships were noted for their speed, agility and relatively shallow draught.

The maximum speed estimate I've read for real early 17th century sloops (including Bermuda sloops) was about 12 knots. But this was still quite fast for a vessel of that era. I don't think the 20-23 knot estimate is right. If someone can find a source to prove me wrong I'd welcome it, but I've never come across an estimate that high.

@genuine-heather I agree with you. The research I've done suggests a sloop ran between 11-12 knots while a Brigantine ran between 12-13 knots. Fun fact: Brigantines were actually more agile than sloops and were used as escorts to deter piracy.🙂

@stormfox57 But see, that is where the problem lies. When you make a product grounded in realism whether it be a fantasy game such as this or a more historically accurate type of game. Your base designs are still grounded in reality. These ships were real. They were not made up in the head of some developer. If they were we would not even be having this discussion. The line you used, but don't expect to outrun a galleon with full wind, that is the problem when you ground your ship designs with realism and tote it as a selling point. Which I am pretty sure I remember them saying they modeled the ships after real world vessels from the time periods we have been discussing in the thread.

That just wouldn't happen. And I know it is a video game and balance issues are required, however, the sloop is incredibly slow. It is laughably slow. Even with the wind. Any ship can catch up to you with the wind. Where exactly is the balance in that? Can the sloop catch up to the brig and galleon going at full sail? No, then what balance is there really? There is none. If the sloop could catch up to a galleon going full billow in the wind then it wouldn't be a problem. But no, the only time a sloop can go faster then the other two ships is only when you are sailing directly into the wind, which again, makes very little sense seeing as they tried to ground their vessels in realism.

You can make the sloop more fragile and sink faster to counter act the speed if people wished. It could be less maneuverable to, cause the faster you go the wider your turn arc would be, so you would have to raise sails up if you wanted to do a sharper turn, just like the other ships. The sloop should be the glass cannon of the ships. Made for 1 or 2 experienced bully boys that can fly out on the water but one wrong move and it's all over.

@genuine-heather You are correct! I went back to my sources where I pulled that number from and found that that information pertained to sloops that are from a modern era. I apologize for that goof on my part. The source I used did not explicit say that it was from a modern sloop and was just information of sloops in general. 11-13 knots is what a 16th century vessel could achieve but from my further research, that depended on hull displacement and bowsprit. I will go edit my OP to reflect the correct information but it still is quite fast.

@Cpt-Parr0t-Head I would have to disagree with you on that one. The Brig most definitely but not the brigantines. They were two different ships. Brigantines were quite slow and fat. Brigs were the ones that could get up to about 11-12 knots.

I find the argument of historical accuracy to be moot anyway. Sloop should be the fastest ship in the game in all directions because it will make the game better, period. I know you are bringing up historical accuracy to convince skeptics, but most people don't even want to consider any changes, even if they may improve the game. I commend you though, I have tried to get this topic visibility more than once, but you have kept it going. I have talked to a lot of people on the seas, and they agree that sloops should be the fastest.

For balance, they could make it more difficult to sail / turn the wheel when moving fast in a sloop maybe due to the waves, but ultimately it should be the fastest for the simple reason that it would make the game a much better experience for everyone. I would argue the sloops sink speed may need some nerf anyway, but the sloop would be far from OP if this were implemented. I have a lot of other opinions on how to make combat more fun and balanced for all ships such as lowering the likelihood of getting knocked off your boat from cannons, but speed is a top priority to counterbalance crew size.

For me it boils down to appeasing two crowds which most people fall into: too much pvp I can't avoid, too little pvp.

For the first camp, if they play sloop which most people who don't like PVP I believe fall in, then they can avoid PVP almost certainly. This is balanced since there less people to look out for other boats, brigs and galleons can still catch them off guard before they have a chance to gain full speed.

For the second camp, increasing the speed of sloops would offer them the ability to duo quo and guarantee pvp EVERY session. Great for streamers too since RARE should care about keeping them. The only people who would lose out are the crews of big ships who hunt sloops, to which I say, good riddance.

Most people seem to think sloop is supposed to be "hard mode" but also contradict themselves and claim that the ship is balanced and that they can wreck in a sloop. The only thing I think of when I read this is the sloop is a dangerous weapon in the hands of the right people. I think that is fine, and I think it should be encouraged as the ship of choice for PVPers, a ship of choice for true pirates.

@shinten-rai From what I read you have it backwards. The brigantines were designed as escort ships that would actually hunt sloops. Brigantines came i a wide variety of sizes but the hull and sail designs were proportionate to their size.

@cheatingpirate said in Sloop Speed: The finality.:

As someone who knows a bit about ships, I found a few things. 1, the galleon in the came is more similar to a Dutch Flute that would be used in whaling. Except for the stern galley which is from a galleon replica that exists today. The brigantine, I believe, is most similar to a real ship known as Lady Washington, which is a Brig. The sloop, how ever, is most similar to a 17th century yacht.

How are you drawing these conclusions? What is your source?

Although similar to galleons, fluyts were not generally used by pirates, as they were not made to be converted into war vessels. They were useful merchant vessels in that they were inexpensive, could hold a lot of cargo, and could be managed efficiently by a small crew. But they were rarely fitted for battle. Galleons were also mostly merchant vessels (until captured and converted) but were more robust and heavily armed than fluyts.

The Lady Washington had many incarnations. Did you know the original Lady Washington was a single-masted sloop? In any case, I see little reason to compare our in-game brigantines to this particular vessel. But in principle I think you're right to suggest our brigantine is actually more of a brig, being fully square-rigged on both masts. Brigantines usually had a square-rigged foremast but fore-and-aft rigged mainmast. Brigantines did, however, have square sails on the topmast. So...it's a bit hard to say.

Our sloops are clearly sloops, not yachts. Yachts were (and are) pleasure vessels. They're not ships of war. While there are some superficial similarities, the giveaway (for me) is the construction and shape of the hull. Our sloops are way more "sloopish" than "yachtish."

Here's a huge caveat to this entire discussion. It's best to keep in mind that our ships in the game are drastically oversimplified models of real ships. You have to place more weight in the intended role of the ship than the surface appearance. Clearly, the below deck areas don't resemble real vessels. The riggings are extremely basic to make them workable by one to four players. They're not intended to be exact replicas of real ships. That said, Rare clearly did their homework. The most distinguishing characteristics of the ships are present. More importantly, while you're playing the game the ships just "feel" right. At the end of the day, that's what matters the most.

I'm clearly a bit nerdy when it comes to this topic, but I don't hold Rare to that excessive standard of accuracy. What I want is the feeling of sailing a real pirate ship. I don't mind if the details are a bit wonky. Realism is awesome, I'm always in favor of more. But I also want the game to play smoothly, and to that end I believe Rare has struck a fantastic balance. I think this also applies to the relative ship speeds.

@cpt-parr0t-head From my research done majority from wikis and another site I will link to you here. The Brig was the faster ship and more maneuverable. The brigantine is a old ship design from the 13th century and pirates used it the most hence the name, brigantine which came from brigantino in Italian which basically means brigand. The brigantine had up to 12 oars on it which made it a sail and oar vessel, and there are no real oars we see in the game on the vessel.

The Brig is just a variant of the brigantine. It got re-rigged which gave it superior sailing speed and power. But while it is just a variant it still is classified as it's own ship type.
Brigantine
Brig
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