Problems I have with HG/Hourglass as a returning Arena player and possible fixes/improvements.

  • As mentioned in the title, I used to play Arena when it was still in the game and just returned after taking a break for a few years. Arena had already been out for years by the time I started, and I wasn't the sweatiest player, but I got good enough and enjoyed the game mode enough to get all of the commendations with friends I made in the Arena. I was a jack of all trades, but master of none, but Arena never demanded mastery from you to make progress and have fun doing so. It certainly had its flaws as a competitive game mode (like the fact that you are incentivized to find the worst crew and farm them if you want to win), but there were a few things about it that made it easy to enjoy that Hourglass doesn't have.

    • What I miss most is the unlimited and standardized supplies. Arena was easy to queue into, even when the wait times were long because you didn't need to do any setup for the match. You just wait and play, and you queue again whether you win or lose. Hourglass isn't like that. You start every session buying supplies and looking for cursed balls/chain shots, and you have to do it again every time you lose. It can actually be a drain on your gold if you keep losing. I think a possible fix is to give crews special temporary supplies that can only be used in Hourglass matches. They disappear after the match. Personally, I'd also disable cursed balls in HG matches.

    • You didn't have to win for Arena to be rewarding and fun. Winning arena matches wasn't as hard ironically, even though there were more crews you were playing against. The best players went off to a fort to TDM each other instead of trying to win. But if you aren't winning the match, it doesn't feel like a waste of time. Getting 2nd place is still more rewarding than coming in last. There's plenty of other commendations to farm for that aren't about winning too. So it felt like there was always something to go for. Hourglass is really only rewarding if you win and if you go on streaks, and it's very punishing if you lose because you lose your streak and your supplies. Nothing but winning matters. I didn't mind losing in Arena, but losing in Hourglass is annoying and unrewarding, especially if you fought hard for 30+ minutes and then lost, and most crews I've formed/joined just stop playing when you lose which wasn't the case in Arena. I think some possible solutions would be increasing the amount of rep both teams get depending on the duration of the match. Obviously, this could be abused if implemented poorly, but you could cap the bonus rep, and add in other changes that could limit the duration of the match to prevent abuse. Personally, I'd also remove the streak system or at least make it more rewarding to win without a streak. Currently, it's a system that's uninviting to anyone but the very best crews which is why only the very best crews are playing most of the time.

    • Arena matches were quick and had a set duration. Sessions could be quick too. Arena was easy to queue for when you didn't have a lot of time to play. You had an hour to play? Well that's not enough time to loot or get into extended fights in Adventure Mode, so you just queue up for Arena and get a quick couple matches in. Hourglass fights can take forever. There's no time limit. There's no supply limit. There's no shrinking circle. Some might say this is a skill issue. Just hit your chains and make sure there's enough pressure on your enemies to board and blah blah blah. Sure, but this still contributes to the fact that Hourglass is only rewarding if you're good, and it's very unrewarding if you're not. Correction, it's not even rewarding if you're good. It's only rewarding if your crew is good which leads to a lot of resentment towards crewmates for not being good enough, which is why good players only want to play with other good players. Even if you find a good crew and are winning, HG is most rewarding when you have a win streak, so you can't really expect to just hop off after an hour or two and get full rewards like you could with Arena. You might say if you can't find a good crew, just play solo sloop, so you have only yourself to blame. The problem of long matches is the worst in solo sloop. Everyone just runs away with full sails at the first sign of trouble. There's a mix of possible solutions for each problem. Limit the match duration and call it a draw if both ships survive. Shrink the circle over time. Emphasize streaks less in rewards. I'm sure the devs could come up with something.

    I'm sure there's things I'm missing, but overall, Arena was a place you could PvP with pretty low commitment. It was almost like a PvP sandbox where you could practice naval or TDM freely, and it rewarded you for doing a variety of activities, not just winning. Getting good just meant you were rewarded faster, but you could get by with average skills and average crewmates. Hourglass is the complete opposite. It's a big time commitment. It's a big supply commitment. It's not a sandbox for you to mess around and have fun in. It's a toxic environment that only rewards the best crews. It brews resentment towards crewmates for underperforming and the overhead and cost that comes with losing discourages any good players from sticking around on worse crews and help them improve. Hourglass gives everyone but the best crews every reason to stop playing it, and most people only play it because they want the curses.

    Edit: Oh yeah one more thing. What on Earth are these HG spawns? Sometimes you spawn into a rock. Sometimes you spawn on an active ghost fleet or skeleton fleet that hits you with cursed balls. Sometimes you spawn in a storm or fog. Sometimes you don't spawn at all. Once, I spawned at the very northern part of the map with no noise, and it was great. I get that variety is the spice of life, but too much spice can ruin the match. I've lost a match and a streak from just being cursed dumped by skeleton ships.

  • You start every session buying supplies and looking for cursed balls/chain shots, and you have to do it again every time you lose.

    I ask you. Who forces players to do these things?
    Nobody. You don’t have to get extra supplies or spend time finding the extra stuff.
    You do this if you wish.

    You didn't have to win for Arena to be rewarding and fun

    Yeah. Yeah you did.
    Then again. Same can be said for hourglass. Win or lose, you’re rewarded with exp that goes toward you to unlock rewards.

    Arena matches were quick and had a set duration

    Too quick as most wouldn’t even touch the chest until the last few seconds and deliver it at the hot mark. Made it stressful when your own crew got mad at you when you alone tried to get the chest and they wouldn’t pick you up, rather have naval battle :/ and lose because “man short”

    Hourglass fights can take forever.

    I finished my own match in 2min each time. (Lose farm) XD and yet people are upset. Not because of the free win or quick match. But fact I give it to them. What gives?

    What on Earth are these HG spawns? Sometimes you spawn into a rock. Sometimes you spawn on an active ghost fleet or skeleton fleet that hits you with cursed balls

    Muhahaha. That is open world tactical play. You can dive for hourglass and fight someone who is defending, who happens to be to doing a world event or near one. Those my friend are best excited matches you can have. The world is against both you.

  • @feedingfrenz

    I tend to agree most with your second point. I think HG's biggest problem is that it has a big return on investment issue. For all the time and resources that can be sunk into even just one match, the points you get for losing can feel almost punitive. I think the system they've developed actually works really well when engagement is up, but the current point system feels too much like a ranked game mode which is going to alienate a large portion of the player base, make the stakes way too high, and ultimately drive down engagement.

    I think a low effort but high impact change they could make would be to create (or re-orient some existing) deeds towards earning you allegiance rather than seasonal points. I think if they added engagement-based, allegiance-rewarding deeds on a per match, daily, weekly, and monthly basis then people would be much more liable to engage with the mode. They would still get bonus rewards as long as they actually engaged with the fight, even if they lost. And obviously they could cap these so they don't get exploited like they were in Arena. These deeds could range from hit x number of cannons, to bail x number of times, to kill x number of enemy players with a weapon from your boat.

    I'm torn on the spawns. I don't mind variety in terrain, but getting spawned into a ghost fleet seems totally antithetical to the entire streak system. I am pretty tolerant of losing, but I might have a minor crash out if I was about to have a 10 streak and I lost it because I spawned into a ghost fleet. Also, I'm cool with not spawning into fog. That is just a time waster.

  • @burnbacon

    I ask you. Who forces players to do these things?
    Nobody. You don’t have to get extra supplies or spend time finding the extra stuff.

    No one's forcing it, but if you're really trying to progress, it'd be folly not to, tbh. Arena was at least fairly generous with base supplies. I do think a set amount of base supplies could be a good addition/QOL fix.

    Yeah. Yeah you did.
    Then again. Same can be said for hourglass. Win or lose, you’re rewarded with exp that goes toward you to unlock rewards.

    Not entirely true - The comms for using the various weaponry, non-first place wins, etc all didn't require wins, and felt pretty rewarding to unlock. I remember doing the grind for the weapons and clothing especially! Was tons of fun, personally. Let's also be real, EXP gain on any time other than Gold and Glory/Fight Night/Week is pitifully low, and absolutely not worth the time/effort. Arena at least felt like you could make meaningful progress within a single match, and more respected the player's time.

    I think hourglass could severely benefit from situational point accruement (cannonshots landed, player one-hit-KO's, de-masts, bullets landed, etc. Largest reason I see people make exodus from hourglass, or simply not bother is that time respect is next to none, and is very one-sided; win or lose, no room for in-between skill.

    I finished my own match in 2min each time. (Lose farm) XD and yet people are upset. Not because of the free win or quick match. But fact I give it to them. What gives?

    People get angry at the most benign things in this game lol. Probably because "muh effort, and you're not trying as hard as I am"

    Muhahaha. That is open world tactical play. You can dive for hourglass and fight someone who is defending, who happens to be to doing a world event or near one. Those my friend are best excited matches you can have. The world is against both you.

    I think that speaks for how oddly organized Hourglass is. Spawning into a rock and immediately having a disadvantage, while the other sails unhindered can be absolutely demoralizing. I don't mind third-partying by and in large, because you're correct - it's in the open world. BUT emergent PVE is what I absolutely take issue with.

    As you say, the world SHOULD be against both players, but PvE rarely targets two separate crews. Personal experience from the other night - Feared Redmaw spawned on our 5th streak match, and z-targeted us the entire match. We absolutely would have won that match, as before it spawned, we had the enemy galleon at mid-decks. But the match changed in their favor, when it bit our ship multiple times in a row, setting our ship ablaze. We all know that on-fire galleons are a nightmare to put out, nevermind the 5+holes that these megs leave. It disadvantaged us long enough for the enemy to repair, bilge, and start circling us - there was nothing we could do.

    Was so great losing a 5 streak to PvE, when we absolutely would have won if it hadn't spawned. Things like this are not fun, nor exciting.

  • ...and sadly, only 2% of a player's time was spent there, causing it to be pulled. Hourglass is what we're stuck with now, and I think it's a dead horse at this point. They're not going to bother with it anymore.

  • @burnbacon said in Problems I have with HG/Hourglass as a returning Arena player and possible fixes/improvements.:

    I ask you. Who forces players to do these things?
    Nobody. You don’t have to get extra supplies or spend time finding the extra stuff.
    You do this if you wish.

    Sure, players can do whatever they want, but the fact that you can do this means you are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't. I've been solo slooping more in HG, and it's common for players (both my opponents and myself) to run out of supplies if they don't buy supplies before queuing, and the matches devolve into running away and boarding the opponent to drive their ship out of bounds or just quitting which I doubt is what the developers had in mind. Players in any competitive environment are incentivized to go for whatever gives them an advantage. A well-designed competitive environment makes gaining advantages and trying to win both fun and viable for the average player. Arena wasn't exactly great at this either because of the incentive to spawn camp, but at least losing didn't actively hinder you from doing well in your next match. Every match is technically a clean slate. HG doesn't just reward you less for losing. It punishes you on top of that. Winners win more and losers lose more.

    Yeah. Yeah you did.
    Then again. Same can be said for hourglass. Win or lose, you’re rewarded with exp that goes toward you to unlock rewards.

    Well I can't speak for everyone, but my various crews and I still had fun fighting for 2nd place which still gave decent rep. Sometimes, we'd just decide to give up on winning and go for the commendations for other stuff like killing players or going for the chest. If you're getting spawn camped, you can always scuttle your ship to escape and try to fight another crew. You can even beat the strongest crew by 3rd partying them. There was always something else you could try to do if you couldn't win. 2nd place in HG is last place and gives you almost nothing, and there's nothing else to try to do as a consolation prize. Scuttling just means forfeiting, and then you have to start over again.

    Too quick as most wouldn’t even touch the chest until the last few seconds and deliver it at the hot mark. Made it stressful when your own crew got mad at you when you alone tried to get the chest and they wouldn’t pick you up, rather have naval battle :/ and lose because “man short”

    I'm sorry to hear that, but any game mode is going to be tough if you're not on the same page as your crew. The chest wasn't very important in the galleon mode anyways, which is why I liked the sloop variant more. You should try to join a crew who's trying to go for the same thing as you. If your whole crew wants to naval, but you want to go for the chest, then you'd probably want to join a different crew. But that's not an issue with Arena vs Hourglass.

    I finished my own match in 2min each time. (Lose farm) XD and yet people are upset. Not because of the free win or quick match. But fact I give it to them. What gives?

    That's the problem with HG. Purposefully losing is more rewarding than trying to win and then losing. I have nothing against loss farmers, but something is wrong if trying to win and failing is somehow worse than purposefully losing. That being said, I don't think anyone I've met would be upset with coming across a loss farmer. Also I don't get why you are defending Hourglass if you're a loss farmer. Clearly that means you're not a fan of the game mode either.

    Muhahaha. That is open world tactical play. You can dive for hourglass and fight someone who is defending, who happens to be to doing a world event or near one. Those my friend are best excited matches you can have. The world is against both you.

    That's what the Adventure Mode is for though. And that's my point. Arena wasn't perfect, but it offered something different from Adventure Mode. HG fighting is the same as Adventure Mode fighting which isn't designed for competitive, clean fights. It's a place for messy fights where you can win or lose just from luck. Arena was a nice alternative to Adventure for the reasons I mentioned above in order to get clean, easy, and quick fights, and replacing it with Hourglass removed those kinds of fights from the game and just replaced them with the same kinds of fights you have in Adventure.

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