[Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass

@thelostsentinel Once players stop climbing into other people's ship cannons, that would be the first step towards improvement, but it's been the same for six months now.

@captain-fob4141 I quite like hour glass mainly because you can get away with purely naval battles and I love the naval aspect but nothing will ever beat the original Arena, 30 mins of pure mayhem. My hands on the controller were truly worn out at the end of it and the wait you had for the next 30 mins wasn't enough for your hands to truly recover.

@valor-omega said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@worst-tdmer This is the type of blindly dismissive attitude, and mindset that led Arena to it's grave. Do you really want hourglass to end up the same? Change is absolutely necessary.

I agree wholeheartedly. While it's not in the same state, it's showing signs of it. I certainly see the same people in Hourglass whenever I tend to play, which is not a good sign. I should be seeing a new opponent each time. I think the change would encourage more people to play and stick with it, not just the hardcore crowd.

As a side note, make sure to keep things civil.

@worst-tdmer Conversely though mate, just because you and your group of friends/community are content with the mode, doesn't negate the issues that the rest of the wider community see, and feel. It feels disingenuous that you're trying to imply that no one wants to put in the time, or dedicate themselves, and are trying to invalidate everyone's ideas for keeping the mode alive.

I wish I could agree that it puts players into "fair" matches, but I cannot when new, greenhorn hourglass players are put against gold-cursed pirates and get effortlessly defeated. Are you really okay with no new additions and just leaving things as they are, currently? As someone looking to get more into fun TDM matches, I for one would love an actual avenue to pursue that goal. I've done a few TDM battles on Sea Forts, and find them honestly perfect grounds for such battles. Wouldn't it be sick if we could dive to Sea Forts for TDM battles? Or Capture the flag, king of the hill, etc?

I get where you're coming from to an extent. You've worked hard to get where you're at and I commend that. You're apprehensive for potential change, but would meaningful additions really be so bad, if it breathes new life into the mode? Over the last couple of weeks, I've had a few different HG sessions, and it's getting to the point where I'm seeing repeat players (not inherently bad), getting long or no que times, and seeing a strikingly larger amount of cheating players.

I had gotten my Ghost curse back during S8 and took a large break, because I played nonstop for weeks. At least then, matches were unpredictable, but now? Again, matchmaking issues, repeat players, strikingly larger amounts of sus/actual cheaters. It's getting old, and it's pushing away people that would love to legit give the mode a chance.

Help me understand why you're against meaningful additions to a mode that's severely waning.

@thelostsentinel I was, and am being civil. You can see my reply to them, as well. I just don't understand how some of the harder core hourglass players can be content with the mode, as is, and be so against actual meaningful change that would not only benefit them, but everyone else.

@valor-omega
I think players like worst tdmer would like to see improvements. But a great many requests for improvement include some way in which levelling up becomes easier. Which kind of dirties the request in their eyes. If you want the hourglass players to go along with changes, you have to agree with them that there is nothing wrong with the time investment required to become level 100. While the OP has their heart in the right place, their idea would make levelling up a lot faster for players who just haven't gotten enough naval experience. I see why that can cause friction, and I too am worried that Rare will take feedback the wrong way and make everything easier.

@grumpyw01f While I wouldn't be against more frequent 2x events (as frankly they make the grind feel more worthwhile for someone with limited time), all I have ever pushed for is more fun and engaging reasons to play Hourglass, and not just battle for the sake of it.

Look at every successful FPS title - TF2, CSGO, Apex, CoD - they all have a myriad of modes for their players, ample rewards, and different ways for players of all skill levels to progress. Why shouldn't Sea of Thieves have something similar, for a mode that hardcore players love to play? More fun game modes like TDM, CTF, KOTH, 2V2 battles, 3V3 battles, etc. The mechanics for these all already exist. I.E, you dive to a sea fort or skull fort for TDM battles, dive to sea forts for capture the flag fun, dive to random islands for king of the hill/capture the point. The biggest push is simply more rewards to pad levels 1-1000, and maybe a big reward for the hardcore folks every 500 levels - a new clothing set for literally the best of the best.

Another idea, and maybe the hardcore folks might not enjoy, is the idea of daily/weekly/monthly challenges and milestones that people can go for, that give some amount of rep. Every competitive game/shooter I've played has challenges, so I don't see why it couldn't/shouldn't work here.

Hourglass has imho limitless potential to rise up and be better than area ever thought about. Has the chance to incentivize early play/progression, get newer players into the competitive scene and join the ranks of the top %, has the chance to REALLY become a solid pvp mode. I only want it to succeed, but feels like some would rather settle with what we've got, and the community be worse off for it.

@grumpyw01f said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@valor-omega
I think players like worst tdmer would like to see improvements. But a great many requests for improvement include some way in which levelling up becomes easier. Which kind of dirties the request in their eyes. If you want the hourglass players to go along with changes, you have to agree with them that there is nothing wrong with the time investment required to become level 100. While the OP has their heart in the right place, their idea would make levelling up a lot faster for players who just haven't gotten enough naval experience. I see why that can cause friction, and I too am worried that Rare will take feedback the wrong way and make everything easier.

Generally speaking while I did suggest the implication of faster levelling systems (in point 3), I am far more focused on my first two points, which is just cut down on match times, and have a determinable winner when there's a tie by score limit that overall helps encourage players to engage with one another more.

In the long run, yes, I suppose this would speed up progression because there's hard limits set for each match and don't let the longer matches drag on. And while I understand entirely from the viewpoint of the veterans who really worked hard for it to have a sense of pride that they had put a lot of effort in and have something to show for it, I'm also of a belief that something should not stay the same if it is overall a poor experience and could be improved for everybody, not just a subsection of the community. Yes, it will make some people upset. But I'd rather see PvP succeed and become more popular than continue the route it's going, which is a downward spiral.

This is just one suggestion I have to improve it, and I can certainly see it's a little divisive. - but I think the PvP crowd deserves more than just what they're given. Having more lifeblood in the mode gives them new experiences, new crews, and new people who think differently than they do for that fun of a battle, as well as more people to join them in the mode they enjoy most. And as of current, I think shorter match times, and hard limits for those match times will make it more approachable.

@worst-tdmer said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@valor-omega Arena was a gatekept game mode that oftentimes involved multiple sweaty crews teaming up on swabbies to farm silver; or multiple sweaty crews ignoring the gamemode altogether to tdm on forts while 2 teams were left to "fight" over the chest. 80% of the time there would be an open crew that couldn't even get anchor up.

Meanwhile Hourglass is a skillbased game mode that puts you in a fair, anything goes, 1v1 with another crew. Just look at the LFG channels at any time of the day, a huge majority will be for Hourglass, 2 years into the gamemode. Just because you got "burnt out" or whatever and see level 210/500 SoF as a huge barrier, doesn't mean most people will. I'm not worried about Hourglass at all, except for the changes that may come because of the vocal group of players that refuse to adapt and improve to better their experience.

Alright, then let's take your original approach you mentioned - if you want people to learn what they did wrong, I bet you long running matches don't always help them learn (this is of course different for everybody, and if it works for you, good on you), but here's why:

Shorter match times help people narrow down what they did wrong, and what they could do better, because it is a snapshot in a longer battle. I know for sure if I had a quick 10 minute match in any shooter, I would recognize my regular mistakes far more versus a long 50 minute or longer match in something like Battlefield. If I'm a fresh faced player, 50 minutes or longer is quite a long time, and a lot can happen in that time period during a high intensity battle.

Originally I said 20-30 minutes max because I'm aware that Sea of Thieves combat is a bit slower than most shooters, mostly due to the speed of ships. But that's still significantly less time than before. Generally speaking, if I had a brief 20 minute match, I'm far more likely to understand what I did wrong and what did not work during that match, or what wall I kept running into. I also will see what I excel at. During a longer running match, I could do things well, and then I could also do things poorly, those things could be the same things, and I won't know either way why it did or didn't work. In a shorter time limit, I could have done one thing that I could more easily attribute to why I lost or succeeded. With a score limit, I could also tangibly see why my crew and I did not do well, or did do well. I speak generally from experience on the High Seas, where my shorter fights, I could pretty easily see what I did wrong or what I should have been doing during a fight to succeed.

If you want people to learn, I think that this is a better way to go about it, in addition to improving the existing mode.

@savvystraw37257
I think you missed my point. We're on the same page. Changes need to be made to hourglass to make it more fair and engaging. I have a topic about it, and if you looked at it, you'd see that we likely agree on most things here.

I was merely attempting to help others understand why there is friction between 'hardcore' hourglass players and those who just want the mode to improve. If you want to make changes that the 'hardcore' players will support, you have to acknowledge their position and why they don't support calls for change when it goes against what they like about the mode. The primary pain point is that these players, myself included, like how much of a grind the base curses are, while the average player doesn't. I want to see the hourglass criticisms stop shooting their feedback in the foot by wanting the grind to be easier.

@valor-omega said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@grumpyw01f While I wouldn't be against more frequent 2x events (as frankly they make the grind feel more worthwhile for someone with limited time), all I have ever pushed for is more fun and engaging reasons to play Hourglass, and not just battle for the sake of it.

Look at every successful FPS title - TF2, CSGO, Apex, CoD - they all have a myriad of modes for their players, ample rewards, and different ways for players of all skill levels to progress. Why shouldn't Sea of Thieves have something similar, for a mode that hardcore players love to play? More fun game modes like TDM, CTF, KOTH, 2V2 battles, 3V3 battles, etc. The mechanics for these all already exist. I.E, you dive to a sea fort or skull fort for TDM battles, dive to sea forts for capture the flag fun, dive to random islands for king of the hill/capture the point. The biggest push is simply more rewards to pad levels 1-1000, and maybe a big reward for the hardcore folks every 500 levels - a new clothing set for literally the best of the best.

Another idea, and maybe the hardcore folks might not enjoy, is the idea of daily/weekly/monthly challenges and milestones that people can go for, that give some amount of rep. Every competitive game/shooter I've played has challenges, so I don't see why it couldn't/shouldn't work here.

Hourglass has imho limitless potential to rise up and be better than area ever thought about. Has the chance to incentivize early play/progression, get newer players into the competitive scene and join the ranks of the top %, has the chance to REALLY become a solid pvp mode. I only want it to succeed, but feels like some would rather settle with what we've got, and the community be worse off for it.

I agree with everything you said there, and I'm sure you've seen my hourglass feedback, so my love of these ideas is obvious.

One of the things that the hardcore crowd often misses is that hourglass would get more development time if it was more popular amongst players. So they don't see that shunning players trying to express how they are getting disinterested with just ends up hurting everyone. Those chroniclers in each hideout were supposed to have a purpose.

@jackieboombox ok

@thelostsentinel a return to the original Arena would just solve everything, fun , time limit and a clear winner with some points awarded for 2nd and 3rd.

@worst-tdmer I guess we will agree to disagree, then. I don't believe that adding fun new modes, more rewards, etc would be detrimental. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

@worst-tdmer I think it'd be cool if when you vote hourglass, it gives you the option to dive for OG naval, TDM, King of the Hill, and/or Capture the Flag, and 2v2s/3v3 battles.

TDM can take place on either Sea Forts, or inactive Skeleton Forts.

Capture the Flag could be Sea Forts, and reuse the Return of the Damned mechanics of flag raising - Each side battles each other to keep their respective flag raised

King of the Hill could maybe be set on larger islands, or something, and have clear areas where players have to stay, to remain king.

2v2's/3v3's could function like regular naval dives, but instead of 2 ships facing each other, it'd be 4, or 6.

Expand rewards for levels 1-1000 to drive more gameplay, and add special best of the best cosmetics for every 500 levels for 1000-9999.

@worst-tdmer Why not? We don't need more menu bloat, imho, and Hourglass's dive mechanic would work perfectly here. I don't understand why Hourglass should remain as is, especially, and if nothing else, in the pitiful reward department. As someone who's probably above the 1000k mark, and while I'm sure you just enjoy the battle aspect as is, isn't it a bit unsatisfying that you've got nothing to push for? New rewards pad levels better, give both new and veteran players more to work towards, and new modes shake things up, and give people multiple avenues to grind and have fun with.

Honestly and truly untrue, friend. I don't want the curse handed to me - I'm not at all against working for it. Again, I simply want variety in this competitive game mode. Variety =/= ease, either. Especially when you consider nearly every other successful FPS game has multiple modes for their players to enjoy, much like my suggestions. I've played a lot of CSS/CSGO, and some of the most fun, high-octane moments come from modes like CTF, Bomb disarm, etc.

To me, your apprehension feels like you just want everyone else to have as miserable of a time on this mode, because you slogged your way through it. I simply just disagree that adding more to the mode would be detrimental. Seeing post after post on here, social media, the subreddit, and in speaking with a myriad of other hourglass players - they all agree that the mode could use a facelift.

@worst-tdmer said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@thelostsentinel Long running matches should absolutely help you learn. You should be paying attention every time they slip from your grasp and think about how you could've used that opportunity to pin them down/finish. Are you letting them sail past you/get away without shooting chains and going for boards? Maybe you should try that. Are you hitting your chains? If not, maybe you should run practice sessions and focus only on hitting chains, then come back to grinding when you're more confident. Are you hitting chains, but letting them pull mast/repair and continue running? Practice your cannon shots and focus on the helm/rigging spots/base of the mast, and whenever you demast an enemy, focus those areas. Are you going for boards and making them consistently/capitalizing on them? If not, have another practice session where you only try to win by boarding and TDMing the enemy outside of the circle.

If you fail at all of these methods of pinning down a runner in a real match, then simply admit that they're better at running than you are at chasing, and scuttle. Then work on practicing what you failed at and try again later.

The key to this type of cycle of improvement, is you have to be willing to have practice sessions where you aren't solely focused on winning/making your numbers go up/getting your curse.

Key word, it "should" help you learn. While I agree this learning method works for some people, and again, good on you if it does! But my point was this learning method does not work for everybody. Not everybody learns the same way, and not everybody is going to enjoy learning one way versus another. I see what you're saying, and I get it, but this is exclusionary of others and their mindsets. I'm a pretty firm believer in organic design, which Rare is fairly adept at. Create a change, but ensure that change is inherently pushing towards the goal you want to achieve.

The goal is not make it easier, the goal is make it more approachable. So far, you have not offered a solution aside from keep the mode the same way as it is. I do not agree with you that there's a fair measure of people in Hourglass as of current. If I'm running into repeat players, that's a sign of a problem in any multiplayer matchmaking system regardless of what game it is. And it's either the population count, or the system itself. You say LFG posts are 90% Hourglass. That is not a sign that the mode is alive, that is a sign the mode is dying, because there is too low of a population in Hourglass to yield regular matches. So matches are being made outside the game. If you want to play water polo and the pool is empty, you need to leave the pool to get people to play water polo with you.

@jackieboombox said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@thelostsentinel a return to the original Arena would just solve everything, fun , time limit and a clear winner with some points awarded for 2nd and 3rd.

I actually disagree bringing Arena back would solve it. Current Hourglass allows an organic way of seamlessly going between PvE and PvP on the fly, and that's far better than it used to be (it's more in-line with what the High Seas are all about!). There was also a chest in the mix that would increase score per capture, which, game modes would be neat in Hourglass, but that's not the objective of Hourglass, it's just to have a naval fight, one on one. Arena was four (five???) ships in the same water all against one another, and that's a very different experience. While I miss it somewhat, it's clear it wasn't good enough to hold the attention of players based on population numbers. I think Hourglass by itself is clean and sleek, and could stand to have a couple improvements to make it more approachable, before it runs into the same problem it's already having.

I have similar thoughts about the quest board. It also could use improvements so it's not completely abandoned as a concept.

@worst-tdmer It's going to die completely if it's kept as is, but if you're content with that, then so be it. We'll end it here and agree to disagree.

@worst-tdmer As the other person above said, LFG posts is not a sign of a healthy game mode, that's a sign of a declining one. The fact people have to use those methods, instead of being reliably matched is very telling. But again, I don't really feel like arguing, as you seem to have your mind made up that everything is hunky dory, when the wider/rest of the community sees the truth.

@worst-tdmer About as much sense as implying that seeing x amount of LFG posts is signs of a healthy game mode, but hey, you do you buddy. When Rare inevitably closes hourglass because no one besides top % players interact with it, and sweats are all malding, I'll be laughing, and saying told ya so.

@look-behind-you Apologies, I'm just tired of these players pretending there's no issues, and shifting blame to people that just want to see meaningful additions. I'm done replying to them.

@thelostsentinel I had a few goes today, and I won a few I think purely based on the other player just had more lag than me or possibly coped less with the lag. Moving from the wheel to the cannon was painful.
HG is not always about naval, I've been spawn camped and bucketed to ensure it continues.
Some Sweats are using HG to satisfy some urge I don't even begin to understand but I feel they need mental health intervention...
The sea can often be so bouncy firing on target is a real challenge.
I don't HG regularly so I still enjoy the naval, but circling in a limited space does have long term enjoyment problems surely. It could get tedious if you HG a lot.
Maybe us players have to think outside the box and put forward ideas to Rare, they seem to be stuck on rinse repeat 1,000 times for enjoyment and reward. It's a sign for me they don't know how to innovate good ideas into reality. There is a huge player base that just can't/won't PvP. If you listen to those players they have a lot of feelings going on in inside that they can't control making them frozen to any kind of action.
Therefore PvP has to be so fluid and enjoyable so they don't view it as PvP.

Turn rewards and commendations around so the person who buckets and patches thereby saving the ship, the team mate who saves a crew member from attack, the person who does actually work the sails, the helm who steers you out of danger or gets a good cannon angle, gets titles and clothing we would all walk through fire to have in our inventory. That way you honour the team approach to good game play. PvP becomes a more rounded experience.

We also need to address risk reward. It's not ok for players to say no risk in Safer Seas so stuff you and except 30%,
If an empty boat full of PvP'ers take on a ship with loot, there is no risk for them, therefore 30% reward to stolen loot should apply, if you bring loot to the fight, and you get sunk, I at least get some loot for the trouble you brought me and the winner should get 75% of the value. Crime should never pay and stolen gear never fetches full market price.

Maybe we should pause and try to understand when we had less content in the game, it wasn't as laggy to play we used to happily fight for a long time over the fort when the skull head appeared.
Rare need to give a lot of thought to all the world events folks don't seem keen to do, maybe that's down to the state of the game your battling with, lag, 6-7 Skellies who have guns who quadruple gun you down. They interrupt my sword dash if I'm shot, whilst they still manage it regardless of what you're doing to them, then take a sweaty crew who come in well armed and it all becomes way too much hassle for some players.
It's a very personal experience Sea of Thieves and nothing for me beats 2-3 boats all rocking up to the world event and find the company of other pirates playing the PvE together and having a great time. The loot if I could sell it and spend the money in the real world, I might feel the need to get good at PvP but I would rather have a barrel of laughs with other pirates and the loot is just virtual reality and let the pirate striving for something take it all.

I did a fof recently with a new player from Australia who was working his socks off to buy his first ship. When we completed it I put the loot on his ship and waved him on his way. I will remember that day far longer than the last pirate to sink me or me having to sink them. They are very forgettable moments.

However you get the moments you enjoy in this game, Rare have to sort out why the game is so broken at times. It spoils the experience on such a fundamental level if you love the game as much as we all seem to.

@worst-tdmer said in [Proposal] Bring Scoring System into Hourglass:

@thelostsentinel To be more clear, this "learning method" is just observing what you are doing wrong, and adjusting/practicing at it. What other methods of learning do you think there are when it comes to skills? What other mindset is there to improve at something? It's already as organic as it can get, the mode you are already struggling in, is also the mode where you practice in. When you practice you're still earning XP. How is changing the gamemode to be easier, more organic?

It's a hardcore competitive gamemode meant for end game players. Why does it need to be approachable?

There are 4 different types of queues that split the Hourglass playerbase 4 different ways, on top of the stamp divisions. Just because you run into the same players when you play solos, does not mean the mode is anywhere near dying. Most people in this game have friends/use LFCs.

The learning method is not what I'm promoting change for, it's the duration of time spent learning. When I refer to mindsets, I am referring to people who do not take information in in large chunks vs small bites. Not everybody learns in long matches because they may become overwhelmed with the information they are given. If they have less time, they may be able to learn more from less, and they will get more matches in. The game mode is not changing so much as reducing time spent per match. It is the same. The scoring system is only there to break ties and end a match with a definitive winner. It gives at least a vague metric as to why the other player lost.

You are assuming the mode is hardcore coded. Nobody said it was a hardcore mode. Nobody advertised it as a hardcore mode. Hourglass was advertised as a PvP mode for everybody to join, and play. But if it's a subsection of the community playing, then it clearly hasn't hit the mark of what it's trying to do.

You are also assuming I am playing solo. I play with a crew, and still run into the same players when I do engage in hourglass. My post wasn't comprised from a handful of matches, it was comprised from not just mine but other player's experiences. It was comprised after having matched with bigger and smaller crews. I've read plenty of threads at this point, and I decided it was about time to make a bigger thread at large for everybody to engage in, because clearly there is an issue with the mode.

I want this, because I want the mode to be faster, snappier, and more engaging. It has fallen very far behind the Adventure portion of the game that has done a great many things to improve that aspect. You can jump in, do a sea fort, turn in, and be done all in the span of 20 minutes, or you can go on a grand adventure spanning several hours at your discretion. Hourglass, I'm spinning a dial that could be anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours. I'm asking for consistency. It's a mode that does not respect player's time, and I think that's a big contributor as to why it's not as popular.