@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:
@xultanis-dragon Firstly, yes, no-one is forcing people to play solo. If the only thing you happen to want to do on a given day is complete Tall Tale number four, for example, you can wait until you find a set of people who also want to do that, or some people that you nag or force into doing it, or just not do what you want to. You're not literally forced to do it, but people can be forced into choosing between two things they don't want to do. Saying, you're not forced to do X, there's a second more unpleasant alternative so you have a choice doesn't really run.
Unpleasant choices are subjective right? So why plan around people who are just going to whine about something? We do the same thing with children who don't want to do things and say they have no choice in the matter and yes I am equated the very same people as children.
The reason being is that again like we have mentioned, this game has been marketed, showcased, and interviewed to be exactly as what was released. A shared PvPvE world. Plenty of interviews that said the devs will never do a PvE server and that their vision for the world is shared where everything is a big what if and where you have to dictate your story. Same thing with the solo play. They gave players solo play not because it was something they planned but something that the player base begged for and Rare stipulated that if they do that the game is not going to be balanced around solo play. That players are choosing to play at a harder setting. That they are giving them the choice but the player will have to face the consequences of that choice.
So everyone that complains is being a child because they have the choice but are saying its too hard.
Who do we use as the common denominator?? They nerfed the Kraken because players said it was unfair against solo players. Really?? Was it really?? 4 Tentacles, 8 shots each. Thats it. So they nerfed it. 2 tentacles 8 shots each, STILL TOO FREAKING HARD. 2 Tentacles 3 or 4 shots each. I can kill the Kraken solo slooping in less time than it takes for it to spawn.
You want to know what critically acclaimed games use as their denominator?? Their best players.
I can solo sloop and do whatever I want. Another player can't. Who is right?? Should we dumb down the game because of someone who doesn't want to learn or put the time into getting better??
This is the fallacy a lot of game developers choose to do. They try to cast a wide net to catch a lot of demographics which ALWAYS fail. You can't make everyone happy because when you try to you get a lack luster game that is just pure garbage. No game that has tried to cast a wide net has succeeded. Games that focus on demographics have always been the best games on the market.
Rare said they wanted to cater to the PvPvE crowd. Players who want to do both, players who can do both. Said thing is that even Hardcore PvP'ers can PvE and are better at PvE then almost any PvE player. However, hardcore PvE players are not capable of PvPing.
So who do we cater to?? I bought a game that was marketed a certain way and you want to change that game. Is every single player allowed a refund if Rare changes their core vision for the game??
Secondly, are you saying that the people who picked up Pirate Legend in a day never had Pirate Legend previously? Or that progress of that kind is even close to normal? Because I've watched the vid in question, of two extremely experienced players (not even then are they willing to solo sloop it) and the whole point of the video is that its an extreme achievement. In the vast, vast, majority of cases, a player with no titles has far less experience than one who has Pirate Legend, and even then, Pirate Legend is, in this case, a short hand for a huge range of metrics that could include time in game, number of kills, percentage of loot returned or any number of other statistics that could, if wished, reasonably be used to measure the relative experience and ability of the two combatants. Hand on heart, if I picked a single player at random with no titles and no kills and put them in a solo sloop, then picked at random four players all with Pirate Legend and put them in a galleon, or for that matter one person also in a sloop and got them to fight off against each other, if you had to bet money on one winning and not the other would you be dropping your cash on the guy with no titles?
The fact that the got pirate legend in a day isn't a testament to their skill. Even though they are experienced, the ability to get to Pirate Legend in a day is a testament to how worthless the title is now.
You think players getting that in a day is skill based?? They did it in less than a day because they wanted to see what it was like to do it with just them. Now picture server alliances. Players getting Pirate Legend and Athena 20 in 3 days or even 2. I think I heard of a character getting Pirate legend in like 8 hours because of FoTD stacking with a full server alliance turn in loot with emissary.
The title Pirate legend is worthless now. Pirate Legend used to make players take a moment now its just garbage.
Again a testament to how easy things are now in the game. Players complaining about hours of work when the game literally throws loot at you from every direction.
Did you play this game at launch? Do you know how big the struggle was and how powerful the Pirate Legend title used to be?
But the point of the no title VS pirate legend is purely as a response to the High Risk/High Reward argument, its not about the titles, its a measure beyond that, high experience means low risk, which is fine, which I don't have a problem with. But it just does not mean that its a High Risk/High Reward equation, that's all.
Yes except everyone started that way. WE ALL started that way. The truth is that the game was significantly more dangerous and bloodthirsty during launch and about 6 to 8 months into release. Honestly all the way upto the shrouded spoils update it was pretty blood thirsty but the worst was the first 4 months of the game.
We were all new to the game once before. No one starts at this game and is a super awesome god player. So what should we do with players who can't take the heat and want to complain when we have thousands upon tens of thousands or even millions of players who went through the baptism of fire and came out the other side??
Again who is the common denominator that we balance around?? The ones playing the game and enjoying it or the ones begging for something else entirely.
Thirdly, I'm not saying, hey, why do I lose 6 hours of progress. I'm saying firstly, hey, why can't I enjoy this amazing world on two settings rather than just one to match my varied moods? But secondly, a 6 hour session really isn't the problem, as you say, players can learn to deal with the issues there. Its the 45 minute session that's the problem when PvP encounters can regularly add 20 minutes to a session meaning that sometimes its just not possible to get something done. Even the extreme expert players that you talk about at the top of your post ended up in an hour long battle, having a game where a single session, where progress can't be saved or stored, can be of a length that's totally outside of the player's control is a serious issue for some players. I'm not worried about losing the progress from a 6 hour session, I'm annoyed that its often pointless logging on for a half hour or 45 minute session.
Thats what the Arena is for. Its the condensed version of the game. Arena is not the PvP server. Its the game condensed.
Also I doubt every session is like that because again the games. I'm sorry but if you want to get on for 30mins to do something that isn't even long enough to do anything. I've been testing it out and timing and I rarely even see ships within the first 15 or 30mins and unless I'm actively looking for it I could go days without being attacked in this game.
I'm sorry but players want to play off that they get attacked every session or a majority of their sessions repeatedly within the first 10 or so mins. Just doesn't happen.
So why should we cater around the one offs?? You have 3 good sessions and then 1 bad one. Why should we balance around that 1 bad one you had??
Thats also something I want to point out. A lot of you discuss that its not about the progress or anything you just want to enjoy the game without being chased. Then why is a server with no progression a bad idea?? You get to enjoy the game like you said if thats really all you want to do. You can do the quests, you can kill that shark, you just don't get any progression. Its because its not about the enjoying the game, you guys want a guarantee on progression.
Like how some accuse PvP players of just wanting targets, PvE players just want easy mode because they are to lazy to get better at the game.
Now you are going to get mad or triggered slightly at the comment because its not true, but guess what, thats how PvP players feel when you guys use that comment about easy targets.
You don't want to PvP well sorry to say you bought a game with PvP in it. Why should the rest of the community who bought the game as is and are happy with it, be punished because of your mood?? You will be killing the game because of your "mood". Why is that right??
If I want to loot stack and roll like a boss, then obviously I'm welcoming the chance of being attacked and indulging in a second part of the game. But if I just want to sneak in a quick mission between a couple of real world activities, spinning around and seeing someone coming at me, knowing that even if I win the battle I'll not have time to turn the loot in I might as well just log out and get on with something more enjoyable. Some people don't have masses of time to set aside for their gaming, and they want to enjoy the world along with everyone else. Worse to those people is the perception that if they were PvP players they could just jump into Arena for a half hour blast, but since they're PvE players they just have to go off and play something else.
Arena is for everyone, not just PvPers. Arena is not the PvP server.
You are making a huge mistake by splitting the game into PvE or PvP. It is PvPvE. It is both at all times everytime. That is the issue at hand. You guys keep thinking of the game as one or the other. It is not. The Arena is a super condensed version of it which doesn't make it the PvP server and honestly not a lot of players play arena because its fun. If you haven't noticed a lot less players play arena because they got their commendations.
We never wanted Arena. We fought against it like hell, so trying to use Arena as a showcase is hurting you guys more than us because we didn't want it. PvE'ers wanted Arena because they thought it would pull PvP'ers away from the game. I know I never wanted Arena.
Did you read my post just two above your response where I pointed out that the perception of risk was significantly higher than the presence of risk?
Yeah I saw it. Except heres the thing what type of game did you purchase? Perceived risk is subjective. You see a ship off in the distance your perceive a threat and a risk. That is tied to your confidence and your skill. I see a ship off in the distance I perceive a ship off in the distance. I make note of the direction of the wind, how far they are and what island they are at.
You can learn a lot of information about a ship from location and among other things.
Also this again ties into what I was saying a lot earlier. You keep suggesting that the only way for you to be happy is if you had an option to choose what you wanted to do when you mood suited you. So you wanted a different server a PvE server.
Remember what I mentioned before?? How players get blinders on their ideas, thinking its the only option. PvE servers, segregating the community. This is not the only way to do things.
There are other ways to keep PvP'ers player busy in adventure without having to make PvE players the target 100% of the time.
Forts during launch were the perfect example of this. PvP'ers would wait for the Fort or just fight at the Fort. Majority of the complaining and crying wasn't from players attacking other ships doing quests. It was from PvE'ers complaining that they spend 40mins or an hour or even longer doing the fort and someone comes in and steals it or sinks them and finishes it and takes the loot.
Like I said there are ways to compromise and find a way for both sides without PvE servers. Take your blinder off and think about the game from a PvP'ers side. What is there for us to attack?? What is there in the game where a PvE player would take their chances at a contest event?? How would the game need to be set up so that these events would stay popular for months.
Just to let you know the Forts were constantly contested all the way up until Rare broke them with cursed crew. So about 6 months. 6 freaking months every single fort was contested for hours, multiple ships coming to fight sinking, respawning and coming back to try again. I've been in fort fights for 6 hours a few times. This went on every day, every single day for us PvP'ers. It brought the WHOLE server in for a fight for hours. The whole community fighting over a single event, 6 months of fighting over the same event, the same loot. PvE players and PvP players. BOTH constantly and EVERY FREAKING DAY
Then shrouded spoils came out and no one touches forts and look at the events they keep releasing, you see players doing it for maybe a week tops and then nothing. A single week and the event is worthless and dead.
Do you finally understand our side of this at all? Do you finally understand where your pain is coming from?? Its not the PvP'ers.
SIDE NOTE The unintended consequence to the Fort and how the game changed from Shrouded Spoils made it to where the main target wasn't the events or the players at those events. The main target are the players sailing now. Changes have unintended consequences when you are trying to go against your vision or try to make a bunch of players that aren't even part of your demographic happy.