Implement a basic stealth system

I love this idea, even knowing it will make my pirate's anxiety level soar.

I love to use stealth, but it always seems a little weird trying to stick my head into a wall or barrel and sleep to do it.

Getting rid of the mermaids will be the most contentious part, but I think it makes sense too.

What this means is that practiced players will be checking for stowaways on a regular basis.

I also love the idea of an Eye or Reach pirate prone on a cliff, sniping away.

The only thing I disagree with, is hiding from the skellies. Their undead eyes should see you anywhere.

@d3adst1ck said in Implement a basic stealth system:

Players that are actually good at sneaking onto enemy ships don't need any help doing it. Players that see other players doing this, but are not good at it at all, tend to request changes to make it easier.

It's not about players needing help doing anything. It's about rare doing the mechanic right and well. I am so tired of players butting in "gitgud" to shut down every conversation. This is a fallacy and an old one at that. If you have nothing to contribute besides adhominems entirely based on presumption or ignorance(you have no idea how I play, and likely over-appraising your own capabilities), then just please sit yourself out of this conversation.

@ultmateragnarok said in Implement a basic stealth system:

@hereticexiled

If an emote for hiding on ships is added, it definitely should not be locked behind a pay wall.

That's why the game cannot rely on emotes for gameplay mechanics. It's not really a factor now, with the current set of emotes, but if they ever released certain emotes that allowed players to better hide or push their heads into the wall, then it would be an issue.

However, the player name is fine as is. If your head is obstructed by a solid object, it will not be seen, and as of an update a while ago,

That's not doing right though, that's just a convenient glitch that people have found a use for. Stealth gameplay shouldn't be about sticking your hitbox into a wall. It's embarrassing that there would even be people defending this as optiomal gameplay design.

distance for crew names was doubled while visible distance for non-crew names was halved.

Yes, I know this, and it certainly doesn't mean that this distance couldn't be further reduced.

As for weapons, I think that's something for the Insider build and the update it would be released in to test, if this ever does happen. It should not remove mermaids however, as mermaids are attempting to help you by giving you a path back to your ship and also function as the only current warning of stealthing players as of now

I deliberately kept this option separate, as there certainly could be some balancing issues with it, but I also specified explicitly that it should disappear only when you are prone. This means that when you get up(which would have it's own animation/delay), the mermaid mechanics would return just as they are now. Not only would this allow you to return to your ship and warn any nearby pirates with the sound it makes but it would also lock down your movement entirely while you are prone.

@itz-majman said in Implement a basic stealth system:

1. As stated above, this is not a good mechanic or game design. It wasn't even an intended mechanic. It just happened to work that way and the devs kept it in the game because was adopted by the majority(like sword lunge was).

2. Says who? Seems like pet would be a lot more fun if they tried to sneak with you and you didn't have to manually dismiss them entirely every time you try to hide somewhere.

3. I'm not sure how this could be simplified any further. You currently have a limited amount of active slots you can use for emotes. If you are forced to keep "sleep" into your emote wheel, then that is a mandatory emote that you need to keep into your wheel whether you like it or not because it actually affects gameplay. It effectively removes one slot from your emote wheel that you can use for flavor. If the game had a proper stealth mechanic in place, then you wouldn't need sleep in your emote bar.

@hereticexiled this is a pirate game not a super ninja xdzy ultra 6000 stealth simulator besides sneaking onto ships is easy enough as it is if they dont see you drop into the water chances are they dont even know your on the ladder either

I can smell the neckbeards from here, gentlemen. I for one, support this.

im not sure if i agree with that last part.

mermaids are the only thing that prevents camping on outposts from being meta.

while your idea is great with good intentions, including just that part leads me to believe that these new mechanics would exclusively be used for camping outposts.

Sneaking is a huge stream draw, it puts the thief in sea of thieves. Mermaid mechanic changes are all that is needed.

whoever said ‘This isnt a stealth game’ is wrong because its a Sandbox game.

In a sandbox you can do anything you damn well please.
It welcomes all play styles.

So yes, i very much approve of more stealth.
For those unfortunate ones who worry about getting ambushed at an outpost...tough. Should of scouted around the island before you docked with a loot laden ship.

Piracy is piracy and it comes in many forms.
Stealing from the shadows is a style id like to do.

I'm perfectly fine with the crouch mechanichs, and as you exposed seems an interesting way to be more thief.... but I gotta say no to the mermaids respawn! You should always have the opportunity to know what's happening on your surroundings and be able to respond to that. The mermaids are fine are they are now...

Yehaaaa!!!
Spread the curse in the seas!!

@daringclarky And the thing is, the type of addition I suggested for the mermaid would still force the mermaid to spawn as soon as they get up. So immediately it would warn people of someone's presence.

It would force people to have a look around the island for an ambush. That adds some danger/threat to the game. It makes it more exciting.

I don't even think there would be that many people willing to wait there at an outpost for extended periods. And, if they do, they only get one life and have no way to pursue. Yes, it's a risk but it's a limited risk and some risk is part of the game.

The only situation where I could see it as an issue are in cases where people spawn into a game, scuttle and then quit the game and rejoin when they die to respawn at that outpost indefinitely. But, to me, this is actually an issue with the spawn mechanics. It's an exploit that should be resolved by forcing a new ship when a player who died re-enters the game.

@hereticexiled said in Implement a basic stealth system:

@daringclarky And the thing is, the type of addition I suggested for the mermaid would still force the mermaid to spawn as soon as they get up. So immediately it would warn people of someone's presence.

It would force people to have a look around the island for an ambush. That adds some danger/threat to the game. It makes it more exciting.

I don't even think there would even be that many people willing to wait there at an outpost for extended periods. And, if they do, they only get one life. Yes, it's a risk but it's a limited risk and some risk is part of the game.

The only situation where I could see it as an issue are in cases where people spawn into a game, scuttle and then quit the game and rejoin when they die to respawn at that outpost indefinitely. But, to me, this is actually an issue with the spawn mechanics. It's an exploit that should be resolved by forcing a new ship when a player who died re-enters the game.

I really couldnt agree with you more.

1 million upvotes from me regarding this.
Its needed, badly.

@hereticexiled Rare already has said they wont put mermaids in the control of the players.

@captain-coel This isn't really "controlling" the mermaid, more so than it is "hiding" from the mermaid. It's like saying that getting on to a ship to make the mermaid disappear is "players controlling the mermaid". What Rare was likely responding to was for players to have a way to summon and unsummon mermaids at will(like when you're in the water). Regardless, having a stealth mechanic doesn't require it affecting the mermaid.

@hereticexiled said in Implement a basic stealth system:

@captain-coel This isn't really "controlling" the mermaid, more so than it is "hiding" from the mermaid. (...)

Nice spin ... it still makes the mermaid do your bidding because you "crouch" or stop the "crouch".

If you are on an outpost crouching and I approach, do my due diligence by circling the island looking for a mermaid, finding none, leaving the sloop, to check the known hiding places (and just missing the top of a tree next to a rock behind the gold hoarders tent), get back to get my priced loot, walking back with an Athena chest, I pass the tent, you come out of crouch but still on a high position and behind me.

The mermaid appears, guess what... I'm on the outpost, more than 50% chance it appears out of my sight ... you can guess the rest :) - not my idea of fun just so some players who seem to like to hang out long times on an outpost can have all the advantages.

And this is without another crew in the mix that is chasing me...

You want my Athena or castaway chest? You can try to take it from me in a chase or when I am not careful in an approach, we either both have fun or I get taught a lesson to be more observant. If Sea of Thieves becomes Scout the Outpost, I'd rather see the sea from my periscope in Silent Hunter or play Patrician III.

@lem0n-curry I mean, everything you just said could just happen if you missed the mermaid. Do you circle around every outpost every time you go to hand in something? Probably not. Most people don't do that unless they have a reason to suspect something is up. Hell, they could even spawn at the outpost as you are handing your stuff in. Someone could also just sail by on the other side of the island as you're handing in or not looking around.

The threat is there no matter what and if someone waited at an outpost you will have to fight them. You also have respawns, they don't(unless they are exploiting a loophole mechanic). You also have a chance to look for him(if you did find him while he's prone, you'd technically have the first shot, and likely still have the advantage because he's in first-person with low mobility). If you suspect there is someone waiting at an outpost, maybe because a ship was just there, then you can always make the safe play and shoot yourself there, inspect the outpost or go to a different outpost.

You are only really looking at the negatives, which are mostly negligible. I am sure there would be occasions when you would like to be able to hide to setup some kind of ambush.

I could be convinced that crouch walking and removing nameplates could work as a stealth mode.

No weapons though, you have your hands free and do a cartoony sneak walk that looks really stupid. Plus you move at walking speed so you're not going to be making a fast get away with anyone's loot in stealth mode. I think that would be balanced. Draw a weapon and it stands you up out of stealth. Mostly so Rare don't have to do a bunch of crouched combat animations and also because crouched v standing fighting would mess up blocks, dodges and lunges. Plus getting sniped by an invisible bush isn't going to be an enjoyable mechanic for the vast majority and isn't a particularly piratey addition, although stealth alone would be, in my opinion.

Prone is too much. This isn't Battlefield. Rare have good reasons that they've already explained for not being able to summon mermaids.

@boxcar-squidy said in Implement a basic stealth system:

No weapons though, you have your hands free and do a cartoony sneak walk that looks really stupid.

I don't know why it needs to look stupid...

Plus you move at walking speed so you're not going to be making a fast get away with anyone's loot in stealth mode. I think that would be balanced.

Right, you would be moving slower, so the intent certainly wouldn't be to run with anyone's loot. However, I could make an argument for walking while crouched being a lot "quieter" too, so it could maybe allow you to move around a ship without people hearing you above and maybe even move loot around without being heard.

Draw a weapon and it stands you up out of stealth. Mostly so Rare don't have to do a bunch of crouched combat animations and also because crouched v standing fighting would mess up blocks, dodges and lunges.

I don't know that drawing your weapon should force you out of stealth, I think that would actually be really annoying. I could see maybe a case for swinging, blocking, shooting and aiming putting you out of stealth but, just having your weapons in your hands blocking stealth seems a bit excessive. Personally, though, I think being able to duck under shots or sword swings would actually be a lot of fun. I don't really see how it would mess up blocks, dodges or lunges(unless they are jumping over you).

Plus getting sniped by an invisible bush isn't going to be an enjoyable mechanic for the vast majority and isn't a particularly piratey addition, although stealth alone would be, in my opinion.

The sniper glint would show no matter what, so either way there would be no chance of that. Not sure how it could be viewed as "not piratey" though, I'm sure pirates were capable understanding basic cover.

Prone is too much. This isn't Battlefield. Rare have good reasons that they've already explained for not being able to summon mermaids.

Prone and mermaid are two separate subjects. A game doesn't need to be battlefield to incorporate prone as a mechanic. Hell, many stealth games made extensive use of prone as a stealth mechanic long before battlefield came around(MGS being the most obvious one).

A lot of stealth in the game also currently revolves around forcing the character model into a prone position(sleep), because it's below the normal field of view or just makes you harder to spot behind objects.

Not sure why you think that pirates wouldn't have historically gone "prone". The phrase "hit the deck" seems to quite literally originate from naval origins. Hell, I could even see the prone mechanic be used in other circumstances, like when the meg charges the boat, as a way to prevent yourself from being tossed overboard.

@sweltering-nick I actually don't mind that at all. Makes sense.

@hereticexiled said in Implement a basic stealth system:

The only situation where I could see it as an issue are in cases where people spawn into a game, scuttle and then quit the game and rejoin when they die to respawn at that outpost indefinitely.

Wait... wait a minute, why have I not heard of this? Is it a timing thing? Are there any videos out there showing this?

I could agree with a crouch. I wouldn't mind being able to duck behind a cover a little better sometimes in a fight.

I can't agree with being able to control mermaids and skeletons with stealth mechanics. The ideas presented here give all advantages to someone trying to just camp, no disadvantages whatsoever.

@hereticexiled as an avid stealth player I can tell you the game really doesn't need anything added to help with stealth. All the mechanics in the game are there to make everything fair for both sides and trust me, you can abuse every single one of them to your advantage. I would enjoy a few additions but at the same time they are simply not needed.

@gutterangel Players usually scuttle their ship when camping a outpost, this already puts them at a major disadvantage and stealth mechanics wouldn't change that.
I for one would be happy to see people "camping" outposts, nothing gets your heart racing like a good ambush 😂.

@hereticexiled I love the idea of better stealth mechanics! They had a dev stream a while back where they joked that they added hiding in barrels and that sounds like fun to me 😂.

I would still prefer a shell horn or something for summoning mermaids tho.

@xzodeak If they were to add certain barrels that could be used to hide, I imagine it would just be an action prompt to interact with it, just like all other interactable items on the ships now. It would be really fun but likely an independent mechanic. It would also bring its own issues, like do you consider someone hiding in a barrel for more than 5 minutes as AFK or as legitimately sneaking. If it's the latter, then that can be abused to avoid afk-kicking mechanics.

@zherron-vorse said in Implement a basic stealth system:

as an avid stealth player I can tell you the game really doesn't need anything added to help with stealth.

This is like saying no improvements or additions should ever be made to the game because players would find a use for them. It's a bad argument. If you honestly think that shoving your hitbox into a wall is the "optimally balanced and designed" mechanic for stealth, there's really not much of a discussion to be had.

@hereticexiled im saying learn how to use what is given to you, if you can't use the plethora of tricks available to you why ask for more stuff just to be spoon fed. I'm down for new stuff but at the same time I enjoy being one of the few who really know how to avoid detection in this game.

@zherron-vorse This is just another ignorant regurgitation of "git gut" as way to shut down conversation. I have no problems utilizing the emotes to stuff my hitbox into objects to cheese some element of stealth into this game. The point is that this is an embarrassingly horrible way to do it, especially for a company of Rare's caliber.

The fact that you managed to find this mechanic sufficient or somehow derive some sense of pride from mastering such a pitifully atrocious system doesn't really add to this argument, and neither does making absurdly presumptuous assumptions about my capabilities(and possibly your own).

If you don't have anything better than "durr, you suck, I'm good; therefore mechanic is good", please sit out of this conversation. If you are honestly trying to argue against new additions to the game, because you have "mastered" current game mechanics and don't want to learn new ones, nothing new will ever be added to this game either.