No Allegiance for Sailing Out of Bounds?

@gaedricstormeye This and basically forcing someone to scuttle need to be reworked.

My thoughts, if your boat has been boarded in the last minute or even two and you either scuttle or the hourglass blows up you should still get experience.

If you scuttle or sail out immediately you shouldn't get exp. But if it's forced on you, you shouldn't be punished for trying.

Edit. Maybe even make it so after a certain period of time, no matter how you lose you get experience. Say 10 or 15 min. Slow enough that you won't farm it that way, but quick enough you don't punish people.

@LordQulex @GaedricStormeye

You guys say loss farming is a problem…it’s honestly not. That is merely a symptom of a different problem:

The PvE players can’t stand PvP in this game (for one reason or another like toxic behavior, spawn camping, etc.) but they are forced to participate if they want the new cosmetics simply because they are forced to with no PvE alternative at this time and trust me, they are hating it as much as the players who want PvP if not more so.

A simple fix would be to create an alternative PvE method to gain allegiance. That would make the PvE players happy while still maintaining/creating a fun way for PvP players to still fight on demand.

@lordqulex

As someone who has tried this, I understand where your suggestion here came from, but it still leaves a fundamental issue:

PvE players don’t want a homing beacon on them while earning allegiance. If someone naturally finds them and they have to fight, ok, but they don’t want the stress of another ship appearing right next to them from under the waves while they are doing something, especially if they are convinced they will lose immediately.

That then becomes a stressful issue of will they ever be able to be rewarded for the loot they are trying to get before their timer runs out and they have to fight, then sink.

I think I’ve said this before, but I honestly don’t think making a PvE method will hurt this mode because that would make the PvE players happy and the PvP players would still use the mode to fight other PvP players.

@lordqulex

Exactly. If a PvE method was available, the “loss farmers” would stop seeking PvP matches, leaving only the players who WANT PvP in the matchmaking.

With the upcoming change to allow matchmaking against someone of either faction, I think that should still leave enough players who enjoy PvP to go against someone actually trying against them like they want.

Nothing like derailing a topic to fit a narrative...

To the OPs post, sailing out of bounds currently does not give rep. He posted the subject as a question so the answer is "yes, that's true."

And yes, you can put me in the camp that believes it should change. The change I think makes the most sense is a timer from the last time a non-crew member was aboard. It'd address the issue as well as spawn campers forcing scuttling with the same end result.

These needless complaints are becoming a tiring trend on these forums.

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it again: Until Rare address publicly that they plan to create a fix for this kind of issue, it's probably not going to be fixed. Rare doesn't seem to ever create ANY conditions based on what a player is doing when, so an enemy boarder could have just about as much context of ship control as the ship's actual crew. Context situations in Sea of Thieves is something they have proven to not consistently work with, so some things clearly don't make sense based on context. How does the game know you were boarded? How will the game determine that the enemy's actions were not done voluntarily or done with appropriately hostile intentions? This issue wouldn't be relevant if context situations were accounted for before Season 8, alas, not really the case here.

That being said, can we cut this constant hivemind agreement about the need for a PvE "alternative" method for players that do not wish to participate in specific content properly? Getting a little tired of seeing this thread to thread when it's the same people arguing the same points like they're in the right, when they've also been counter-argued in more than enough threads previously.

@nex-stargaze

No. People are entitled to their own opinion and some of us want the devs to know how we feel about it. Accept it like others would accept you having your own opinion.

@gaedricstormeye

The thing is that if you sail out of bounds or scuttle the ship you are essentially quitting. Rare didn’t count on people sailing their opponents out of bounds. There needs to be a mechanic like you get reputation if your opponent is on the ship when you are sailed out of bounds

Use the Feedback option to push this over, me and my friends are doing the same. its frustrating specially when solo-sloopin'. Making someone go outside the ring is the only way to ensure they will get destroyed should both players lose their Ship-destroying supplies.

@nex-stargaze said in No Allegiance for Sailing Out of Bounds?:

These needless complaints are becoming a tiring trend on these forums.
That being said, can we cut this constant hivemind agreement about the need for a PvE "alternative" method for players that do not wish to participate in specific content properly? Getting a little tired of seeing this thread to thread when it's the same people arguing the same points like they're in the right, when they've also been counter-argued in more than enough threads previously.

I agree completely, its a trend in all games with mixed PvP and PvE Areas. I come from Destiny 2 and if you put certain cosmetic reward ''locked'' behind a PvP Grind people will riot like crazy. Whats funny is that less than 20% of the community have some sort of Endgame PvE Stuff. The mentality is that ''as long as its not PvP its ok.'' Hell, some people dont even grind PvE curses and complain about the Athena and Servants one.

The game would need a way to make sure. You the player didn’t sail yourself out of bounds.

Otherwise…that just poor sportsman and cheese way to earn points.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

If there's one thing that rings true about the SOT community, they will find a way to cheese stuff.

So unless Rare is capable of closing all the cheesy doors (which is virtually impossible), their goal should at least be to not negatively impact the community with rules and mechanics aimed at preventing cheese.

Not having allegiance gain for out-of-bounds losses is negatively impacting the community and isn't preventing any cheesing.

Fix it, Rare.

@arch-ideall

I’m sure that’s probably true. Problem is that the insider program is more focused on fixing bugs then changing mechanics.

It’s possible that this issue was reported in insiders but they don’t normally address issues unless the community as a whole complains about a problem.

@lordqulex said in No Allegiance for Sailing Out of Bounds?:

I once matched three times in a row with a player who anchored his ship, sword dashed across the water onto mine, boarded and sailed me out. When you're good enough to juke ladder guards this is insane. It's so silly you don't get allegiance for this because intentionally sailing oob isn't even the fasted way to throw a match.

Sounds like an easy thing to thwart. As soon as I saw that was who was against a second time, I clubhaul as soon as I surface and fire a few shots into the nose of his ship.

He kills me, raised my anchor and starts sailing me out of bounds. As soon as I'm through the door, instead of trying to kill him, I rush the anchor and drop it again. Let him kill me. Rinse and repeat.

His ship will since from my three cannonball hits before he gets my ship out of bounds. Or he has to leave my ship to save his and then the naval can commence.

Which is the point of trying PvP. Think outside the box.

Yes, there is no Allegiance for sailing out of bounds, or being sailed out of bounds.

This has happened to me a few times, and it is very frustrating. I believe Rare should change it so you still gain Allegiance even if sailed out of bounds.

I understand the concept they were going for. They didn't want people to scuttle or sail out of bounds right away to farm losses. The thing is, people are still farming losses, and are doing so faster than sailing out of bounds would. Just sails up, turn broadside into your opponents', get cannoned, profit. I've run into a few loss-farmers and the matches go by very, very quickly.

So with people already able to farm losses efficiently, why even have this be a thing at all? I get where people are saying there should be a timer or if there was an enemy on your ship within a certain amount of time of being sailed out of bounds, but honestly that is all unnecessary. If someone is going to farm losses, they'll lose anyway. Just make every time you sink, are sailed out of bounds, or scuttle grant Allegiance. Yes, people could just scuttle immediately and farm losses slightly faster, but really who cares?

I also think Allegiance should increase based on time spent in the battle, for wins and losses (up to a cap). Some matches are like 10-15 minutes, some last almost an hour. And it's a bit painful when you spend an entire hour fighting only to lose and then get the same amount of rep as if you had lost in the first minute. Put a cap on it so people don't cheese it constantly, but it would help feeling like losing after an hour isn't such a waste.

@lordqulex said in No Allegiance for Sailing Out of Bounds?:

@strangeness

There are a great many things that sound easy and aren't. Plus you may be better than me, or I may be at my skill ceilings. Judging people and giving unrequested advice is always easier than compassion, isn't it?

Is it exhausting to always be the victim of Rare's lack of inclusion and the community's lack of conpassion?

You soicitedbthatvadvicrbthe moment you chose to post that story to back up your claim. And you exhausted my compassion about 15 victim cards ago.

@lordqulex said in No Allegiance for Sailing Out of Bounds?:

@strangeness

I'm going to say it again in case you missed it the first dozen times but I'm fine, thanks for asking. I'll get the curses some time next year, even if things don't change. I'm not a victim.

What I'm more confused about is why someone asking for a more balanced PVEVP experiences to earning the curses makes people "victims" in your eyes. Is someone liking to play a game a certain way offensive to you? Is someone wanting a cosmetic and access to that cosmetic a way they enjoy victimizing to you?

Why don't you want everyone in the SOT community to enjoy the game their way? Have you no respect for the journey ahead of every pirate?

Nah mate. I don't want everyone to enjoy the game their way. My 10 year old nephew wants them to add space dragons with lazer eyes. I don't want him to enjoy the game that way. It'd ruin the game.

You talk big about compassion, empathy, and inclusion, but you absolutely refuse to listen. You are very much not inclusive to other viewpoints than your own. And when you beaten by a simple argument, you turn to ad-hominem attacks and generalities like "inclusion" and then accuse others of what you are doing. You even repaint their logical arguments as crazy "Why don't you want people to have fun?!?!? You are a demon!!!! WWAAAHHH!!!!"

So after many such posts and after many polite explanations, you'll understand that I'm really quite over your "non-victim" victim crying. If you showed even a little effort to understand what a massive majority have explained to you, I'd at least think you were reasonable. I don't expect you to agree. Sometimes its best to agree to disagree. But if you want to get me mildly riled up and tell you how it really is? Just put words in my mouth that I never said and reframe my arguments to fit your narrative that all people who disagree with you are evil beasts who want to ruin the game for "everyone else."

Want to shut down a reasonable debate? Accuse your opposition of being evil and cruel just like you have been. "I don't understand why anybody would oppose making the game more fun." Sheesh. Gimme a break. You absolutely know that isn't what this is about and never was. But its a wonderful strawman when you can't win with real words.

@lordqulex said in No Allegiance for Sailing Out of Bounds?:

@strangeness

Then what is this about? People are asking for greater allegiance rewards for PVE activities and my response is, "seems reasonable, doesn't bother me none." I would enjoy that because repetitive anything is boring for me and I'd love to mix up PVE and PVP to earn allegiance.

It is about your insistence that you know better than everyone and then throw around "inclusivity" and "compassion" as weapons to anyone who dares disagree with you. Apparently Rare isn't infallible, but you are. Ludicrous.

You keep talking about forcing people to play PVP to get the curses because it's a personal growth opportunity for them, or they need to buck up and play the game as Rare intended as though the developers are completely infallible.

Nope. I don't think anyone needs these curses. People should play games to have fun, and this isn't a game for completionists. Those who promote a completionist mentality actively hurt the longetivity of this game. That is a problem that negatively impacts this game and the majority of the community so once I'm pushed to a point, I call it out.

I want to do what will keep the majority of players in the game to keep it going forward. What is it you actually want? Why are you spending so much time trying to convince people to do something they don't enjoy? What do you gain from it?

You want to keep the majority of players in the game to keep it moving forward. Sure. I humbly submit to you that your approach would have the opposite effect, but you have thus far refused to even entertain the idea that you might be wrong despite overwhelming feedback to the contrary.

What is it I actually want? Three things:

1. The vocal minority to recognize they are the vocal minority. I am happy to agree to disagree, but I don't reasonably tolerate people saying I'm not inclusive because I dare have a difference of opinion. You have taken the attacks personal at every turn, and then are shocked that I responded with less compassion FINALLY after you pushed too far.

2. For users to stay on topic. You usurped a thread about sailing out of bounds to make it about your narrative. You usurped a thread about someone asking how many matches they'd have to lose to make it about your narrative. You have posted MULTIPLE new topics about this subject, not content to keep your thoughts organized and in one topic. Your "by the numbers" which people rightly called out as mathematically problematic, as just one example. Which is actually against the terms of use since derailing threads and posting multiple topics about the same thing is actively against the forum rules. But you persist and somehow WE who disagree with you are the ones in the wrong.

3. For people to have an open mind about the design decisions of this mode. You have argued about making it PvEvP and have argued about the curses being behidn the wrong thing and have argued about the amount of time and have argued about defending, and it meanders everywhere without any focus. I have tried...truly tried...to be open to debate on this but all I keep hearing is "its broke and I want it fixed and I don't know how to fix it but I want it fixed and I'm gonna bash Rare as bad designers and not caring about their playerbase and bad at business because they can't fix this thing I think needs fixed even though I keep changing how to fix it to fit my current rant." If someone finds pleasure in owning digital cosmetics then I won't fault them for their idea of fun. But then they can fight, or loss farm, or cheese. That's the design decision.

Note that I'd make this EXACT SAME ARGUMENT (and have!) when PvPers lament about the closing of Arena or how they have been ignored (they haven't.) I'm happy to debate how to improve PvP, but a few hardcore PvPers also wanted to push to break the game (or even keep Arena alive) not understanding the business decision and cost outweighed the number of players they'd lose.

So yes, the third thing I want is for people to MAYBE admit they aern't end-all-be-all experts. I know I'm not. I don't pretend to be. I have opinions, of course. But that's why a healthy robust debate is good as long as it doesn't devolve into "you guys are all bad because you don't want people to have fun!"

Why am I spending so much time trying to convince people to do something they don't enjoy?

I AM NOT! This is exactly the kind of false argument you keep making. When you disagree with someone, you can't help yourself. You HAVE to attribute some sort of sinister motive or nefarious purpose to their opinion. 'Nuf said.

What do I get out of it?

What I get out of the debate is that Rare devs and other readers get alternative viewpoints and don't let the vocal minority (Based on the anecdotal evidence of the number of people who think the curses being where they are is wrong vs the number of people who are okay with it) dictate their singular version of the game at the detriment of the long-term health of the game.