Slow sloops are ruining the game's potential with their mediocrity

Logical explanation? Sloop has 1 sail. Brig has 2. Gal. has 3.

@calicorsaircat said in Slow sloops are ruining the game's potential with their mediocrity:

Make sloops the fastest ship

Mate,

how many redbulls did you have

[mod edit]

@xultanis-dragon

1. The majority isn't always right, and in this case they and you are wrong.

2. I only know that there are people who BELIEVE sloops are good. If the qualities were sufficient to make up for the deficits I mentioned, there would be no people like me who believe strongly in their inequality among the other two ships. They are balanced in the wrong attributes. It is possible for something to be just right for the wrong reasons. In this case, the sloop sinks too slow, but is in contrast too easily boarded. Reverse those two and you have a winning combination for the ship type.

3. Sloops have a player disadvantage, making the anchor down, you (crew) dead scenario more likely. Again, just because it is possible for something to be, doesn't make it statistically as probable.

4. I am no expert on ship physics, and your explanation is commonly cited if not still an unsubstantiated claim. But then again, you can sail directly into the wind with no tacking, so realism isn't really a thing I think anyone should be discussing. This is about balance.

5. You admitting the sloop is meant to be harder deflates your argument that the ships are balanced. How about the galleon crew needs to be a bit better to catch up to the solo sloop? Just because something was designed one way doesn't mean you shouldn't change it. So even if you don't want to hear it, there is room for improvement. Rare didn't nail the balance just yet.

6. Smaller crews are much easier to get everyone into the mindset of "full PVP." Your argument is an artifact of correlation, not causation. I can attest in my experience that the crew size of the sloop is the most attractive feature to PvPers, not the sloop's other qualities.

7. Sloops are easy to board because there are only two players to watch ladders, vs 3 or 4 on galleon. Add more ladders on brigs and galleons and watch the ships sink! Again, you are confusing possibility with probability.

8. Sloops aren't meant for fighting. They are harder remember? You have to be good at everything to stay alive! So if survival is such a concern, this fact is in direct conflict with their role as a fighting ship.

9. I have sunk plenty of ships on the sloop. I just ran from a brig for an hour and a half, hitting shot after shot. But eventually, everyone will succumb if the other crew is remotely capable. If you know what you are doing, any ship is dangerous!!!!! Seriously, how often do you confuse possibility with probability. Statistically sloops will lose!

10. Yes, sloops can use islands to put some distance, but good luck doing anything with that small distance you gain for long. And if its common knowledge that there are islands that sloops can use that others can't, then the tactical advantage is spoiled anyway. How about if they don't fall for it? Should I wait for them to get worse at the game?

11. Boarding shouldn't be a requirement. It certainly is close to a requirement in the current balance. Double gunning much. I suggested a long time ago it get nerfed, it is now. Sloop speed increase coming next.

12. Thanks for responding, but I disagree with you on every level. Sloops are in a spot right now where they aren't UNPLAYABLE, but need a bump to their speed. That's it, speed. I do not believe your argument about sloops being the most dangerous. They are crewed by dangerous people, and that is it, which again, is more to do with convenience of hoping on and off SOT / servers to take out a few ships with a smaller crew. It isn't impossible, but this is about probability, to which I say, sloops have it rough as you mentioned.

@rodlimitless enough to stay engaged in a topic long enough to see resolution to an issue I know many people would agree should be reconsidered.

If you're not happy with a sloop, try a brigantine ;)

@ef-bobzesponge My favorite ship, sinks a little fast, but I am okay with that because I have a crew of 3 people.

@calicorsaircat said in Slow sloops are ruining the game's potential with their mediocrity:

@rodlimitless enough to stay engaged in a topic long enough to see resolution to an issue I know many people would agree should be reconsidered.

Mate I'm just not going to chase a sloop around Africa so I can finally sink it and get the 1 chicken it had aboard.

If they make this change, no one would play any of the other ships everyone would just use a sloop.

[mod edit]

@luciansanchez82 I am preemptively dismissing the common critique resulting from groupthink, that the sloop must inherently be weaker and more challenging because of it's size (physically and crew). I am not doing it in a nice way, my method of argument is brash because it generates the most discussion. See post on the first page of recent topics "Sword play is the worst ever yadda yadda". It is completely unsubstantiated and the post just says "literally" but has generated over 100 return posts. Brash works and gets eyeballs on a topic that needs reconsideration. I don't want to be negative or shut people down, but I want to hear actual commentary about why a faster sloop would really be such an issue? So far, the argument is, sloops are a bit tougher and I like that / think that's fine. But what if they were a bit "better?" Would that be such a far cry from what we have now, and what would the repercussions be for 1) new players who think like me, 2) experienced players who would like a bit of a challenge going after the ship with greater maneuverability.

I sail the sloop solo frequently, usually by choice. I don't have to deal with keeping a crew together, or doing specific types of quests. I can do these things, I have done these things, and the game is usually more fun when I do these things, but I think sloops solo or duo would have more enjoyment of the game if the ship were faster, without much detriment to the fun of other crews. If they are PVP oriented, this may increase PVP encounters, which again, I am fine with. It is the larger crew size picking on smaller crew size part that makes my sense of justice squirm.

When spotting another sloop, I rest easy knowing there is no way they will catch up if I sail right. The sense of urgency is absent for me.

To me, the thrill of the chase has chased a lot of people away from this game. It is thrilling for all the wrong reasons, either manueverability wins because crew skill discrepancy is high, or speed wins because crew skill discrepancy is low. The frequency of ships engaging each other in combat should not vary by crew skill, but the winner should absolutely be decided by the more skillful crew.

@luciansanchez82 I sailed the brig solo for a while when the kraken was removed. Not possible nowadays without significant risk due to the added PVE encounters. The hull is too large a target to patch effectively for 1 player. Sink speed is fine, but the ergonomics aren't there to make it a viable vessel for PVE, even if you could avoid PVP. It is just my believe that if any vessel should be able to avoid PVP, it is the solo ship.

@guepard4 If needed, ,make them operate like a faster galleon? Faster with the wind, slowest against the wind. 3 out of 4 cardinal directions where the brig and galleon have the advantage is already OP enough. I don't believe if the sloop was the fastest in all circumstances it would be OP anyway. Sure, someone could run off with the fort key on a sloop in any direction of their choosing, but a brig and galleon can already do that in 3 of 4 directions. So sloop players need to rely on chance of which way the wind is blowing to "have a chance" on fighting back. That is OP

@new-world-clogs As a player of all ships, it is obvious to me as well as PL10 that the sloop is the weakest. Player advantage is the biggest threat to the game's widespread adoption, and Rare would be smart to make the sloops better. PVPers and solo players would unanimously like it.

@calicorsaircat said in Slow sloops are ruining the game's potential with their mediocrity:

@xultanis-dragon

1. The majority isn't always right, and in this case they and you are wrong.

How is the I am correct you and many others are wrong even a arguement.

2. I only know that there are people who BELIEVE sloops are good. If the qualities were sufficient to make up for the deficits I mentioned, there would be no people like me who believe strongly in their inequality among the other two ships. They are balanced in the wrong attributes. It is possible for something to be just right for the wrong reasons. In this case, the sloop sinks too slow, but is in contrast too easily boarded. Reverse those two and you have a winning combination for the ship type.

You want that, play a brig. It is seen for many as the fastest ship, with the negative aspect of sinking quick. It is manageable solo and perfectly fine for 2.

I personally don't like the brigantine, but I know people who love it. I don't want my sloop to become a smaller version of the brig, I want it to maintain its own character.

The slower sink is a really good aspect, especially when rocking it solo. If I would be forced down every hit I would take would result in me being boarded way more often.

3. Sloops have a player disadvantage, making the anchor down, you (crew) dead scenario more likely. Again, just because it is possible for something to be, doesn't make it statistically as probable.

Sail well, guard your ladders (swipe at the top, isn't hard to do) and you should be able to avoid being boarded.

Being boarded has to do with positioning of the ship, the hand to hand combat happens if you failed ensuring safety by position (most likely cause the sloop went too offensive).

4. I am no expert on ship physics, and your explanation is commonly cited if not still an unsubstantiated claim. But then again, you can sail directly into the wind with no tacking, so realism isn't really a thing I think anyone should be discussing. This is about balance.

The logic is simple, more sails, more wind, more speed. Proper tackling can actually gain you some ground, it just is a lot of work for very little benefit.

5. You admitting the sloop is meant to be harder deflates your argument that the ships are balanced. How about the galleon crew needs to be a bit better to catch up to the solo sloop?

They do have to be better than a solo sloop, they need to work together. There is no way a single sailor on a galleon is going to catch a solo sloop.

Just because something was designed one way doesn't mean you shouldn't change it. So even if you don't want to hear it, there is room for improvement. Rare didn't nail the balance just yet.

This might be true, but changing some of the key characteristics of the sloop like its sinking speed and max speed to be more like a brigantine. Removes the uniqueness of the ship and I want the ships to feel different. That way people can play with a ship that suits their style.

6. Smaller crews are much easier to get everyone into the mindset of "full PVP." Your argument is an artifact of correlation, not causation. I can attest in my experience that the crew size of the sloop is the most attractive feature to PvPers, not the sloop's other qualities.

I also agree that people also just like to prove their worth by taking on larger ships. Though I also believe all ships are dangerous in the right hands. Best PvP vessel is still a galleon, just by being a tank and with the largest crew.

7. Sloops are easy to board because there are only two players to watch ladders, vs 3 or 4 on galleon. Add more ladders on brigs and galleons and watch the ships sink! Again, you are confusing possibility with probability.

Sloop ladders are for that reason right next to the wheel. The maneuverability is a good way to avoid boarders as well.

The only issue I have and I have also used is that when knocked down the boarder can land on the main deck next to the cannons.

8. Sloops aren't meant for fighting. They are harder remember? You have to be good at everything to stay alive! So if survival is such a concern, this fact is in direct conflict with their role as a fighting ship.

Exactly you have to be good at everything, the less pirates the more relevant your own skill becomes. Which is why people like the ship.

Whether you focus on survival or combat isn't really a conflict, but a mindset.

9. I have sunk plenty of ships on the sloop. I just ran from a brig for an hour and a half, hitting shot after shot. But eventually, everyone will succumb if the other crew is remotely capable. If you know what you are doing, any ship is dangerous!!!!! Seriously, how often do you confuse possibility with probability. Statistically sloops will lose!

Do you have percentages? If we talking numbers, yes sloops sink more... but then again are also more common.

10. Yes, sloops can use islands to put some distance, but good luck doing anything with that small distance you gain for long. And if its common knowledge that there are islands that sloops can use that others can't, then the tactical advantage is spoiled anyway. How about if they don't fall for it?

Don't fall for it? They are chasing you, you should be dictating where you are heading. They should have no real say in the matter.

Should I wait for them to get worse at the game?

I would personally suggest getting better, it is the only thing you can control. Then wait for a mistake on their end and abuse it, even the best players aren't perfect.

10. Boarding shouldn't be a requirement. It certainly is close to a requirement in the current balance.

Every ship can be saved by their crew, boarding feels like a requirement because of it. Not sure how you would like to address that other than the alternative we have now using a ballast ball or putting them to sleep/dance.

Double gunning much. I suggested a long time ago it get nerfed, it is now.

Not sure how double gun strategy came up in a ship conversion, but yeah cannot wait for the patch. I miss my sword fights.

Sloop speed increase coming next.

Doubt it, as I don't see the need for it. Though if the rest wouldn't be touched, I wouldn't complain about getting places faster.

11. Thanks for responding, but I disagree with you on every level. Sloops are in a spot right now where they aren't UNPLAYABLE, but need a bump to their speed. That's it, speed. I do not believe your argument about sloops being the most dangerous. They are crewed by dangerous people, and that is it, which again, is more to do with convenience of hoping on and off SOT / servers to take out a few ships with a smaller crew.

I agree, combat ships are based on their crew not the ship they use.

It isn't impossible, but this is about probability, to which I say, sloops have it rough as you mentioned.

I feel very relaxed on a sloop, not much roughness being had. Though that might just be me. If we talk about solo it sure is harder, but then again that is more due to the solo aspect and by design.

@luciansanchez82 I would say, give it the ability to outpace in any direction or make it like a faster galleon (fastest with the window, slowest against). This enables it to take advantage of 3 out of 4 directions. The sloop can already be caught eventually with enough persistence, unless you are lucky and get fog, a storm ,or the galleon behind you gets krakened.

As for being the fastest in any direction, I think for me this is preferable because it is more time consuming for sloops to do just about anything in this game that generates treasure (besides digging it up), so the repercussions of a sloop running away with loot is balanced by the number of players available to generate treasure, turn it in, and fight back. Sloops would instead become the defacto cargo runners as they were historically used, and true pirate vessels for players looking to take a bit of a risk fighting a larger crew but who are guaranteed to catch up.

@cotu42 I am arguing that people who disagree are wrong until I am presented evidence otherwise. And you are the first to make a decent point.

I will agree that the slower sinking is a nice trait when solo, but is bordering criminal when there are two players. I address this as well in another post in which I argue for reducing knockback on cannonballs as to prevent getting knocked off your boat (which I believe is also more common and detrimental on sloops). On a sloop, less chance of getting knocked off the boat would reduce the dependency to have a slow sink time. If you die by cannonballs, it is clear from those who responded here that the sloop didn't take advantage of their maneuverability to avoid being in an angle of fire. So tough luck by that same logic!

Solo players should have it a bit rougher still, after all I would expect a brig or galleon down a player or two to be vastly disadvantaged. However, this should not extend into frequency of engagements. Lower crew count should be most noticeable on the battlefield, not during sailing. Unless of course you are in a larger boat which "requires" the larger crew to sail effectively.

Ladders are in the best position they can be to attempt balance you are right, and are quite easy to knock people off of. But sloops can't always been guarding ladders since the crew size is smaller, regardless of accessibility. Sloops will eventually also need to go offensive and get close to escape their pursuers, because you must distract your pursuer somehow so they do not adjust course immediately. Usually this is by turning quickly into them and behind and away, around an island, what have you. They can fire over and board if you suddenly find yourself under fire, sinking, whatever it may be. If you can keep your distance, then clearly they aren't pursuing you with full sails.

I disagree with galleons having to be better to catch you. Good communication is required for galleon play, but isn't a balancing feature vs. sloops. Ships are designed with complexity to match the maximal crew size so that when players die, the balance starts to tip in favor of the ship with the full crew. However, simpler shouldn't mean weaker, only weaker should mean weaker (as in lost players). The sloop is unique because it can be sailed effectively with one person, maybe not 100% but certainly not enough to influence the ability to sail across open ocean. Open for debate though.

@calicorsaircat said in Slow sloops are ruining the game's potential with their mediocrity:

@cotu42 I am arguing that people who disagree are wrong until I am presented evidence otherwise. And you are the first to make a decent point.

I will agree that the slower sinking is a nice trait when solo, but is bordering criminal when there are two players.

Why? Ever bailed with a full crew on a galleon or brig? You can survive a lot more if your entire crew is bailing than you might expect.

I have brought back galleons from the brink of death by shouting at that one guy trying to patch a hole, cause we have 3 bailing in a galleon: Everyone bail, NOW! I MEAN EVERYBODY! STOP PATCHING WE ARE SINKING!

Most large crews just barely ever all bail, usually one or two are patching, boarding, shooting, steering or watching the scenery.

I address this as well in another post in which I argue for reducing knockback on cannonballs as to prevent getting knocked off your boat (which I believe is also more common and detrimental on sloops). On a sloop, less chance of getting knocked off the boat would reduce the dependency to have a slow sink time.>

Actually for me this isn't true at all. I am not dependent on the slow sink time to compensate for knock off or death. Usually the sink time is redundant at that point, my ship is probably going to sink if it happens.

It is a fact that the knock back is annoying to deal with and if you are off the ship... game over for solo play usually. The knockback is more prominent on a smaller ship. It is all about awareness and positioning though to avoid landing in the sea.

For me the speed at which it sinks are prominently to provide me time to steer, deal any type of cannon damage and not be stuck below deck if I get some damage. If the water flows in quicker, it means the time I am given to do any other tasks than heading down for bailing and planking is reduced. Which is giving me the time I need to provide a way to actually fight, avoid being boarded and mainly stand a chance against larger crews.

In a chase or fight, if I have to sacrifice sailing for survival usually I am going to lose. Being forced to defend by your opponent means by the time I am back up on top, any decent crew will be able to position themself for a barrage of cannons or getting someone on board. Cause my ship is just moving suboptimal. Which I could not address as my ship was sinking and I was required to do something about it.

If you die by cannonballs, it is clear from those who responded here that the sloop didn't take advantage of their maneuverability to avoid being in an angle of fire. So tough luck by that same logic!

People make mistakes and sometimes it is nearly impossible to avoid a volley. Though you should be able to avoid a direct hit in the face.

I don't think we should make it that taking a single volley of cannons from a galleon means the end of a sloop by default.

Solo players should have it a bit rougher still, after all I would expect a brig or galleon down a player or two to be vastly disadvantaged.

The fact that you are as a solo player bound to the ship, can only do either defense or offense or steer is all the hardship it needs.

Ladders are in the best position they can be to attempt balance you are right, and are quite easy to knock people off of. But sloops can't always been guarding ladders since the crew size is smaller, regardless of accessibility. >

Priorities, what task is more important? For me, especially when solo is first and foremost: don't get killed, don't get knocked off and don't get boarded.

Sloops will eventually need to go offensive and get close to escape their pursuers, because you must distract your pursuer somehow so they do not adjust course immediately. If you can keep your distance, then clearly they aren't pursuing you with full sails.

Which is why use of environment is key, making the correct choices where to head and maybe even create a scenario where you can leave the ship and board.

Naval combat and positioning has an extremely high skill cap. There are no golden rules to follow, it is about how you want to approach it and make plays based on the current situation to achieve it.

I disagree with galleons having to be better to catch you. Good communication is required for galleon play, but isn't a balancing feature vs. sloops. Ships are designed with complexity to match the crew size. Simpler shouldn't mean weaker.

I don't think the sloop is weaker, just smaller. In PvP having more people makes you stronger and is really true if there is teamwork. I don't think that will ever change.

The big advantage a solo slooper has is knowing their ship. On a galleon it's too easy to lose track of whether or not that one guy is handling repairs or who's dead/off ship. Most of the time when my galleon goes down it's cos too many people have tried to do too many things and nobody was paying attention to that 1 hole. On the other hand solo I know how many holes I've got and how many I'm bothered about and how many buckets I can get out before I need to steer/shoot again. I've done the whole battle for the wilds solo on a sloop, I've taken down galleons at forts on a sloop. When you die on a sloop you've got time to respawn and sort it out, often on a galleon if you've killed a couple and ones off ship trying to board you the last guy will struggle to keep it up. That teamwork that keeps them afloat is the same thing that brings them down if it can be disrupted. Keep moving to avoid boarders, listen out for the splash and knock them off the ladders if they do catch you, always rain down on the top deck before you start putting holes in them, use Ballast Balls on galleons (half the time they've already got middeck holes). Sloops are awesome just the way they are, they just take a lot of practice to get the feel of, you can leave a surprising amount of holes a surprising amount of time before fixing, and you can bail and steer even with every possible hole so you can always just ram them.

@calicorsaircat First matey I want to remind you of the Pirate Code for the forums. Try to refrain from direct attacks and call outs to others.

I normally sail the brig, even when solo. I just love the speed when in wind, especially for getting from island to island. But I am pursuing Kraken, so I have switched back to the sloop the last couple of days. And while you are right, the sloop is the slowest with the wind, you fail to recall the massive dishonesty in the sloop. I can sail into(against) the wind with sails set to full stupid and I am now faster than any other ship on the sea going against the wind. Honestly, it had been so long since I sailed a sloop that I forgot just how mind numbingly stupid it is that I can set my sails like that and actually be faster than I am with the wind sometimes.

As for the speed of a sloop with the wind compared to other vessels, it actually makes sense. Smaller, single sail, boxy build that doesn't cut through the ocean vs a ship designed to cut through the ocean (brig) with three sails, or a galleon that while boxy, has 7 sails on it. If not for the sails to stupid against wind thing, it is very realistic that the sloop is slower than the other ships. And while this is a fantasy pirate game with fantasy things like cursed cannonballs and such, some reality also helps immersion into the game.

@calicorsaircat said in Slow sloops are ruining the game's potential with their mediocrity:

@luciansanchez82 I sailed the brig solo for a while when the kraken was removed. Not possible nowadays without significant risk due to the added PVE encounters. The hull is too large a target to patch effectively for 1 player. Sink speed is fine, but the ergonomics aren't there to make it a viable vessel for PVE, even if you could avoid PVP. It is just my believe that if any vessel should be able to avoid PVP, it is the solo ship.

I still prefer to sail the brig solo, and am quite successful against all PvE encounters except the kraken. I have yet to kill a kraken in a brig even fully crewed without first losing our ship. It is most certainly not impossible. In fact, I dare say I am better against those PvE threats in a brig solo than I am in a sloop.

@calicorsaircat regardless of my opinion on the sloop issue, I'm concerned that you are openly stating that you post in a "brash" (read: inflammatory/baiting and thus against forum rules) tone simply so as to get more views. If your topic is uninteresting without statements that you yourself call "unsubstantiated", is it even worth making? We have problems with polite discussion on these forums -- please stop exacerbating those problems.

@xultanis-dragon Ok, a bit off topic from the OP, but wanted to respond. @xCALYPT0x started a post with a video on how to solo the kraken in a sloop and overcome many of the issues that you encounter in such a battle. And during that conversation, it was mentioned soloing a kraken was easier in a sloop than in a brig. Something I believe to be true. And since my normal crew have not been playing as often, I figured I would give it a go, as well as test some other theories shared in that thread.

Yes, karen seems a bit overpowering when you are on a brig. The only time we beat one while on a brig was because we had an ally ship there as well. So when our ship sunk, we jumped to their brig, helping them save their ship and then finally able to kill karen.