We are offtopic now, but I do a short reply to main points.
I don't disagree completely and I apreciate the time you took to answer. My post was from mobile, so many misspellings and in the end I also need to cut my answer,but anyway.
@xultanis-dragon sagte in A return to civility:
@bugaboo-bill Its not that I do not take you seriously. It just that some times people have a fantasy over morality in the world. Of right and wrong.
That's idealism , at least for me i know having a strong opinion is hard to stay authentic all-time.
They believe things should just be fact because of morality.
Know what you are saying , I'm also critic about that,but cannot deny I'm also somewhat idealistic and have my believings about that.
Its not that I'm being triggered. I have no emotions towards the person I am having a discussion or debate with. I get frustrated but not because they are not accepting that I am right. I get frustrated because there is obviously something I am not explaining right or something they are not seeing.
We both have hard time to see the others approach :-)
Good to debate on a civility level :-)
I have not read Zhuangzi. From the context I might give it a read. However, yes I always believe I am right. This is not to say I won't change my mind if someone gives me facts to prove otherwise. I am always up for more information and I can change my mind if the facts prove me wrong. If I end up being wrong, I apologize and just move on to the next subject.
So I do, you maybe don't like zhuangzi approach, but it's worth reading imho!
I think everyone believes in themselves enough to believe the opinions or decisions they make are right until proven otherwise.
If I don't know something, I say I don't know. If I believe to know something I will believe I am right. If I find out I'm wrong or someone shows me that I am, I apologize and move on. I however never think someone else is wrong.
You can read all of my posts that I have ever written. I have never straight up and said "you are wrong" to someones opinion. I have never said that in real life either. Again right and wrong are subjective. I could be right 1 second about something and wrong about the same thing the next second.
I dont see any defensiveness or protectiveness in my post, sorry i won't take that personally, but i see you misinterpreted my post to underline your following reaction.
If I misinterpreted then I am sorry. Your post seemed defensive in the way you suggest how we should deal with or treat newer players. Also suggesting that we should not use certain words due to the effect it brings. To me that sounds protective and defensive. If I am wrong then so be it.
In fact i'm idealistic about treating beginners and lower skilled players, because I believe (i am idelistic about) strong need allways to take care for weaker like in traffic the trucker need to take care for the car more , the car more for the motorcycle, this one more for the bicycle and this more for the pedestrian. Not everybody can upgrade even if he want , but everybody can downgrade and take a little care for the weaker. That's idealism and if you call it protectiveness then yes , I am protective for the weaker , I'm also more the Robin Hood Type of a pvper if I PvP and the setting is like that. But don't get me wrong here , I can be egotistical for sure.
Next about the dojo comment. You said that you have never seen any beginner say they want to be a master for nothing. I understand that which is why I asked what would you do if you did run into that. What I describe happens in game ALL the time. Also in the forums.
I let them have an experience , at best - and I for sure did wrong earlier - I don't "teach them a lesson", but give them the chance to see they are wrong by themself and become a little more humble. Mostly respect is given if you realize there is a skilled one, but friendly and modest willing to share knowledge without words, but in practice and body language , that's of course only possible in stuff like that, for playing it's different , I would just play with them and answer questions if they ask some.
Teachings are often not good, because the other one hasn't asked for something. Only if there is someone asking questions he is able and willing to learn something.
And we talk about playing a game, so maybe a lot of teachings are at the wrong place because it's mainly playing for fun and not for learning. Until someone want to learn to become better.
Something becomes to hard, they demand it becomes easier. We try to help them and work them through it, they immediately dismiss us as PvP'ers who are trolling them or telling them to "git gud". We try to help, some players however might be getting tired of being name called and not having the advice that they give, with full intentions of helping the player, taken seriously.
I agree in general, but rare has all the metrics Andi trust them they do the average to satisfy the majority.
Also I don't want to get into a philosophical debate over good and evil, right or wrong. If we get into it, whatever credibility I have in the forum as a human being will go out the window, as it already has in real life.
True - read Zhuangzi you will maybe like it!
This is maybe the elitism i spoke off.
You call it elitism when its just 2 different ways of playing. I think maybe you are disdaining our way of playing??
I thought over that and yes a little bit, because of all the disdain about casuals, for fun players etc...
I mean do you know many criticising the way I do or more gamers criticising casualty , mediocrity , beginners asking to make things more accessible.
Btw I often argued that DR is hard , buttons it was before the nerf, I also was against a pve mode before,but I changed my mind because of arena, but that's another topic, so I was not asking for easy mode and pve only.
That changed a little about pve modes, but again another story.
I dont disagree in total, but it's again that is only true if you make playing games a serious competition instead of competing for fun mainly.
And again you are disdaining people with a more relaxed approach along gaber, because you may think that just playing games is minor.
Not disdaining. If you want to play casual thats fine. Just don't complain about how the game is too hard for casual play and demand PvP'ers not to PvP when you don't want it or ask for things to be easier.
I understand, but the other way around is the same.
Need to find the average and there will always be people who want it easier and other who want it harder.
Some days ago someone didnt understand i am fine beeing mediocre.
Thats fine, but if you were playing with someone and they did not like you playing mediocre. Why did you stick around? You suggest that everyone should be allowed to have fun yet you stayed on a ship ruining someone elses fun?
No,that was in the forum only.
I wont "put effort" in to become better.
I mean why, i'm playing a game and do t prepare for a tournament or a job or whatever.
See you guys seem to approach all and everything from a performance economy side, even playing games.
I dont tell you not to do it, but i can have an opinion about that and tel you playing with you is not that funny, because you act a little like a party pooper, only having fun disdaining and "owning" others.
Thats fine, but why is it not alright for us to do the same thing? Why can't we say the way you guys play is not fun? That you guys are being a party pooper but not joining in? Only have fun disdaining us and calling us names?
You can, but call memoralistic , idealistic or whatever ,but think it the way I explained earlier when I talked about stronger and weaker and made the traffic example.
Do you realize the massive amounts of hypocrisy over the subject matter yet? Not just you but do you realize the incredible amounts of hypocrisy over this simple issue?
I understand you better now, yes!
Its fine for you or them, but not for me or us?
You say you want to teach me?!
Seriously, know how to play the game and part of the fun is to deal with my own ibabilties sometimes and i dont need a teacher or someone help me improving to become more efficient.
I won't offer advice if you don't complain about it or ask for it. So you want to play casually. Thats on you. Great do you. Just don't complain about how PvP'ers can't have fun by attacking you or how players can't have fun by being competitive.
Seriously who for you think you are to act like that if we still talking about playing games.
This is how I have fun, who are you to judge the way I have fun? Who do you think you are judging the way I have fun playing games competitively?
Problem is, the way different people want to have fun is destroying each other's fun. Like some friends shoot hoops and then some NBA pros come and rule the yard.
Do I pick up a game of mario and start demanding Nintendo put a battle royal in it with guns and abilities? Demanding that they turn it into a competitive game?
That's right and we all agreed there is PvP, I'm not only fine with that,I also like it exactly the way it is.
If there is nothing wrong about asking for more PvP and to get an Arena mode and it's also fine to ask for more cooperative content and a pve - coop mode.
Because they already decided to split it, there is no argument against a pve or private mode anymore.
So everybody can play like he or she wants.
No. I didn't. I bought a game that has PvP in it. Unlike the casuals who bought a PvP game, then start demanding PvE servers or to be left alone.
You are the kind of person telling others they do wrong and should do it you teached them playing a game although they already know how the game works and what they can do?
No I am the kind of person who offers advice when someone makes a complaint. If they say something that is incorrect I will offer advice. If they don't want it fine, then demand things to be changed or make incorrect comments about the game.
So you are one of these players sitting at a table telling others they better do this move now?!
No but if they complain about losing and keep telling that they lost and its all the other guys fault because they would not let them win. Then I will tell them straight up that they lost because they suck.
Woah i dont like playing with people telling me how to do it better, because it's just a game, i dont need to improve all the time. And if i do i do it because i got something by myself and not because someone told me to do so, because that's "better".
That's true for everything else inofe, even in my Dojo, but not for playing games.
Do you have childs? Try to tell them how they do better and see if the have fun playing with you. And as a singleparent father if a teen i'm talking gto try it with a child 3 to 5 years old.
You are limiting and stopping creativity what is also a very important factor playing games.
So here is the main issue of what we are having and what we have all over the place.
Let me address the thing about children. So my god son is around 8 right now.
I've played Street fighter with the kid among other things. NEVER let the little guy win. I DESTROY HIM. Chess, checkers, soccer, video games. I take him to school. I did that for years. Since he could hold a controller or pick up a chess piece.
He gets mad, really mad when he loses. When he does lose I sit him down and we talk about what happen. He gets mad he can't beat me so I explain something to him. I am an adult, I have years of experience in something he just picked up. That somethings in life you can not be automatically good in. If he practices, if he really works hard, he can get better at different things.
The kid has been killing in chess recently. He even got me in a couple of rounds in street fighter. His first victory yell was loud. "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHHH" Ran to his dad and told him in epic detail the beat down he gave me.
I did it a little different and I am more convinced of cooperation as of competition regarding evolvement etc. But i also didn't let my daughter win all the time.
But I'm not telling her life is about competition mainly, but cooperation!
You talk about creativity? Fun? Competition does not stunt creativity. In most cases competition actually makes people grow faster. Rivals have always been a thing. Its how people encourage competition. Like all things there is a right way and a not so right way, everyone has their own way to parent. Talking down to a child repeatedly as they are working hard is a no no. Telling them you believe in them and that they can do it is a big yes.
True ,but again i'm more of a cooperator.
Now everyone has a different way to raise their kid. Thats great. I have never been a fan of participation trophies. Kids thrive and grow on competition. Competition teaches us how to deal with losing, how to handle pressure, and among other things.
I also dislike participation trophys but ... You already know, cooperation over competition and that is not there is no competition or competition is bad.
Final point - Fun
Fun, like all things, is subjective.
In the forums we are told that the PvE players have to right to play the game how they want. That no one should tell any other group how to play. Then in the next sentence they tell the PvP community we shouldn't attack them.
So we are not suppose to tell them how to play, but they tell us how to play? PvE are allowed to play to have fun, but PvP are not allowed to play to have fun??
See I agree, but that's a problem all mixed games have and is created by Rare wanting to please more than just one group. There is an average and all who stick on the edges and forth more extremes will become unsatisfied in the long run .
You want casuals to be able to just enjoy being casual players. To have fun doing what they want. Thats great. I want that too.
What I have an issue with is the same casual players, who willingly bought a open world PvP game, start complaining about the PvP. Telling us we can't tell them how to play but then turn around and demand us to play a certain way.
I don't recognize it that way , I think its more about meet in the middle, but fronts are very much hardened over time and not only because of this game,but because of the experiences made in former titles they played, and I'm talking of both groups.
We give them advice and try to teach them. But wait you said you didn't want to learn or get better, you just want to have fun playing the game. Thats fine. If you don't want to learn or get better then you have no right to complain about losing.
Never complained about loosing, really not. We just looked at a fort yesterday when we were very successfully for the last days. It was a good fight and I had fun, and I also learned something or let's say it was a good training.
They have fun PvE'ing. We have fun PvP'ing. Unfortunately our fun may sometimes come at their expense. but again PVPVE GAME. They can always fight back. Its not about "owning" someone or "moment to shine". Its the PvP, its the fighting. If we win, steal treasure, or whatever we are still having fun. Even when we lose and get mad we still have fun.
Like me. And the only thing I say is I Rare makes the game more casual friendly then there is for sure a reason, we may not agree to it, but we have to accept it and we can complain here about it.
They want to play their way, which according to you shouldn't be wrong. That is correct. However we the PvP community are playing our way too. If their way is not wrong, neither is ours.
All fine, you will get an Arena mode and you should for sure keep pvping in the adventure mode. I'll do the same!
Seriously the hypocrisy over the "Fun" subject needs to stop.
SIDE NOTE You suggested I was being elitist to the comment of Rare not knowing how to play their own game. I've watched A LOT of their streams just to ascertain if they know or not. They in fact DO NOT know how to play their own game.
Also you cant build a game for everyone. Trying to please everyone is a fools errand. Whats the word for someone living in delusions of fantasy? Thats the one I want to use for you since you enjoy calling me an elitist :).
Thing is there is no right or wrong playing games,if your son want to bake some Lego although Lego is not supposed to be baked who can tell he's not playing and having fun :-)
I thank you for getting more insight and understanding of your side, maybe you also can get something from mine.
And sorry for misspelling,again on mobile and not that much time to write and check everything.
Have fun o7