A return to civility

  • @bugaboo-bill

    I think you are misunderstanding something. You are having a fantasy over your own sense of "morality" or that "right or wrong" are definite place in reality.

    Morality is subjective, as is right and wrong. So lets not get hung up on that. It never leads to anywhere.

    Lets address your defensiveness over terms noobs and "carebears", as well as your protectiveness over the PvE community.

    Noobs or beginners are just that. Beginners. You talked about respecting beginners in your dojo. Thats great. Would you say the same thing I wonder, if those same beginners started saying that instead of actually participating in the actual lessons, they should just receive the rewards everyone else does? Beginners just sitting on chairs and doing absolutely nothing, but want to be recognized as masters.

    This is essentially what is going on in the forums, and in most other games. Noobs cry about something they do not know about or want something for nothing, we try to work with them, inform them, and teach them. They instead cry louder and demand to have it there way because its just too hard.

    I'm sorry to hit you with a hard truth, but PvE or casual play is not a high level of play style. It just is not. PvP is looked at as a higher level of play because it just is. Competitive play in anything is always a higher level of play that's just simple fact.

    PvP players can both PvP and PvE effectively. PvE can only PvE. Sorry, PvP players have better knowledge over the game.

    That's why have rankings, Beginner, novice, intermediate, Professional.

    You wouldn't let someone who knew nothing about architect build your house. You would get a professional or someone you deemed to have enough experience to be worthy of the assignment.

    Now there are some people out there with natural talent that just excel with little to no actual training. However we are not talking about those guys.

    Next is respect. In today's society people believe that respect should be automatically given. That we should respect peoples opinions. I personally will give people simple courtesy when I socialize with them. I'll listen to what they have to say but I won't just openly hand them my respect. Respect is something I decide to give, you do not just automatically receive it just by opening your mouth.

    So how does the PvP community treat the PvE community? We treat them quite well actually. However, we are getting frustrated with being ignored time and time again. We are also getting frustrated with being blamed for every little thing that happens to the PvE community.

    You tell us to respect them but why do you never actually acknowledge that they should also respect us? Respect our knowledge gained through hours, weeks, months, or years of competitive gaming experience?

    We disagree with beginners not because we are elitist, we disagree with them simply because their ideas are bad because they are beginners. PvE community ideas are almost always "I got Attacked, please change it to where PvP goes away." When we do disagree with them, even on a legitimate basis, we are made out to be the bad guys.

    The posts "The game is dead", "stop catering to noobs" is because for the past year Rare has done everything in their power for the PvE community. After all the patches what do the PvP community finally get? Arena mode. We are being split off from the rest of the community. Arena is a clear indicator that Rare has no intentions of adding anything PvP wise to adventure mode.

    We are an after thought.

    Rare devs do not know how to play their own game. The Pioneers that help them in deciding these changes are mostly PvE community players. They need to sit and decide what game they really want this to be and stick with it. Right now they are trying to cater to the PvE community needs while trying not to alienate the PvP community. Too late. You can not make everyone happy.

    One more thing

    The PvP community has not had the ear or the respect of Rare since the game came out.

    SIDE NOTE

    Also please don't talk about hypocrisy while being a huge hypocrite in your whole post.

    "You should listen to noobs" - While according to you the wise players do not post in the forums? "I've become wiser" - yet you do not post and avoid the forums completely?

    "The best thing you and we who are loyal fans of Sea if Thieves is to post neutral, making suggestions, post positive stuff we experienced ingame and if we feel the need to say something critic this needs to be constructive and not emotionally loaded and full of hate, accusations and personal attackings." - your whole post is pretty much attacking a particular player base.

    "Noob or carebaear is often not recognized as an insult, but it is an insult!" - You care about the use of words while you openly call the PvP community or those in the community Elitist over and over again.

    If you think noob or carebear is a derogatory term so is elitist in the way you use it.

    I personally don't care about any of the above mentioned. However, I am calling you out on your own hypocrisy.

  • @xultanis-dragon sagte in A return to civility:

    @bugaboo-bill

    I think you are misunderstanding something. You are having a fantasy over your own sense of "morality" or that "right or wrong" are definite place in reality.

    I dont have any fantasy i shared my opinion and i see you got triggerd and start attacking me in the very first sentence, talking about me having a fantasy like i have not to be taken serious.
    Thank you for that approach. Attention this was meant to be sarcastic.

    Morality is subjective, as is right and wrong. So lets not get hung up on that. It never leads to anywhere.

    Did you read Zhuangzi?
    I agree to that, but you now sound as if you think you are right and I am wrong and stick to right or wrong dualism.

    Lets address your defensiveness over terms noobs and "carebears", as well as your protectiveness over the PvE community.

    I dont see any defensiveness or protectiveness in my post, sorry i won't take that personally, but i see you misinterpreted my post to underline your following reaction.

    Noobs or beginners are just that. Beginners. You talked about respecting beginners in your dojo. Thats great. Would you say the same thing I wonder, if those same beginners started saying that instead of actually participating in the actual lessons, they should just receive the rewards everyone else does? Beginners just sitting on chairs and doing absolutely nothing, but want to be recognized as masters.

    First i never see any beginner do that, claim to be a master, nor in my Dojo neither ingame.
    About effort i have a more differntiated view and the example if a dojo dies nit longer fit here.
    I approach games as a player who plays games for fun mainly and if i honest also only. I dont make it a job to work off, i dont make it a serious sports competition. To me it's a game i want to play with and against othere, but keep it approaching like i fight a friend for fun.
    Like shoot hoops 1v1 in the yard or play Ludo with family. No matter if i win or loose, all thst counts is having fun playing together.
    People like you and your approach making it a serious and often a personal thing often spoil the game for me.
    If you cannot play for having fun without "owning" others, disdain the player next to you, no matter if he's less skilled than you is questionable behavior to me. Dont come up with right or wrong now, or i maybe come up with a little story from Mozi about right or wrong, black and white, good and evil, sweet and sour :-)

    This is essentially what is going on in the forums, and in most other games. Noobs cry about something they do not know about or want something for nothing, we try to work with them, inform them, and teach them. They instead cry louder and demand to have it there way because its just too hard.

    See i never have seen that, bit i think this depends of the different way you and many gamers approach games as more serious competetive eSport thing where you want to shine.
    The whole Problem in all these communities is there are players, playing mainly for fun not exagerating playing games and gamers who approach games like a pro Sport or a serious competetive Hobby or whatever having their performance credo effort= reward.
    This will never fit.
    So developers have to create and develop games for this or that audience.

    Btw. did you release that all past fixes and patches and adjustments were made to please casuals more?
    From lowering the commendations to recent combat fixes?

    I'm sorry to hit you with a hard truth, but PvE or casual play is not a high level of play style. It just is not. PvP is looked at as a higher level of play because it just is. Competitive play in anything is always a higher level of play that's just simple fact.

    This is maybe the elitism i spoke off.
    I dont disagree in total, but it's again that is only true if you make playing games a serious competition instead of competing for fun mainly.
    And again you are disdaining people with a more relaxed approach along gaber, because you may think that just playing games is minor.
    Some days ago someone didnt understand i am fine beeing mediocre.
    I wont "put effort" in to become better.
    I mean why, i'm playing a game and do t prepare for a tournament or a job or whatever.
    See you guys seem to approach all and everything from a performance economy side, even playing games.
    I dont tell you not to do it, but i can have an opinion about that and tel you playing with you is not that funny, because you act a little like a party pooper, only having fun disdaining and "owning" others.
    You say you want to teach me?!
    Seriously, know how to play the game and part of the fun is to deal with my own ibabilties sometimes and i dont need a teacher or someone help me improving to become more efficient.
    Seriously who for you think you are to act like that if we still talking about playing games.
    You are the kind of person telling others they do wrong and should do it you teached them playing a game although they already know how the game works and what they can do?
    So you are one of these players sitting at a table telling others they better do this move now?!
    Woah i dont like playing with people telling me how to do it better, because it's just a game, i dont need to improve all the time. And if i do i do it because i got something by myself and not because someone told me to do so, because that's "better".
    That's true for everything else inofe, even in my Dojo, but not for playing games.
    Do you have childs? Try to tell them how they do better and see if the have fun playing with you. And as a singleparent father if a teen i'm talking gto try it with a child 3 to 5 years old.
    You are limiting and stopping creativity what is also a very important factor playing games.

    PvP players can both PvP and PvE effectively. PvE can only PvE. Sorry, PvP players have better knowledge over the game.

    Elitism again?
    PvP'ers are maybe the better humans i guess. They do alle better, invest more, get more... and thats evidence alone?!
    I doubt that, but i wont argue with you about that.

    That's why have rankings, Beginner, novice, intermediate, Professional.

    You wouldn't let someone who knew nothing about architect build your house. You would get a professional or someone you deemed to have enough experience to be worthy of the assignment.

    You are comparing wrong things.
    Playing games is not building a house, doing serious spoets competition, but playing games.
    You can make all game a serious competition, than you arent playing a game anymore, but do a serious competition.
    Like i said what are we talking about and what is the most significant difference between me and many gamers is: i play a game for fun only and you approach it as something g serious.

    Now there are some people out there with natural talent that just excel with little to no actual training. However we are not talking about those guys.

    Next is respect. In today's society people believe that respect should be automatically given.

    I think that you should respect everybody and encounter everyone with dignity, what means you take care for the others dignity.

    That we should respect peoples opinions. I personally will give people simple courtesy when I socialize with them. I'll listen to what they have to say but I won't just openly hand them my respect. Respect is something I decide to give, you do not just automatically receive it just by opening your mouth.

    I respect you although i more or less disagree with all you said. I respect and i know a lot of gamers approach games lime you, but i wont stop to advocate my personal opinion.

    So how does the PvP community treat the PvE community? We treat them quite well actually. However, we are getting frustrated with being ignored time and time again. We are also getting frustrated with being blamed for every little thing that happens to the PvE community.

    Arena is for pvp players only, i do t see you are ignored. There are also pvp commendations in the game already.
    I dont see you got blamed for anything, at least not by me. I btw do pvp quite often in the game and i consider myself mediocre and doing fine, having fun unless the other crew is toxic and just not that social and just taking it too serious is guess, even if they won some rant at you, call you a m...f... noob etc.
    Luckily those are rare in the Sea of Thieves and i hope their numbers wont increase with Arena.

    You tell us to respect them but why do you never actually acknowledge that they should also respect us? Respect our knowledge gained through hours, weeks, months, or years of competitive gaming experience?

    I do respect that, no clue why you think i dont.
    But i dont think that makes you the better "player".
    It makes you maybe the better gamer, but if you want to be seperated you may ask for a matchmaking refferig to k/d ratio and metrics like that?!

    We disagree with beginners not because we are elitist, we disagree with them simply because their ideas are bad because they are beginners.

    As i already said, your experience or higher skill doesnt make you automatically the better player in sense of someone juse want to play the game.
    Of course are the opinions of beginners and less skilled players very important if you want to build a game for "everyone". If you only consider the strong you lock of the weak.
    Like we do in performance focussed society everyday. Or do you believe into inclusion today?
    I dont and i worked in this segment and know what i'm talking about.

    PvE community ideas are almost always "I got Attacked, please change it to where PvP goes away." When we do disagree with them, even on a legitimate basis, we are made out to be the bad guys.

    The posts "The game is dead", "stop catering to noobs" is because for the past year Rare has done everything in their power for the PvE community.

    Guess why?

    After all the patches what do the PvP community finally get? Arena mode. We are being split off from the rest of the community. Arena is a clear indicator that Rare has no intentions of adding anything PvP wise to adventure mode.

    NDA, sorry

    We are an after thought.

    Rare devs do not know how to play their own game.

    I love "statements" like that, they are so....
    Elitist?

    The Pioneers that help them in deciding these changes are mostly PvE community players.

    I assume you have never played in the Pioneers Programm or partake in the pioneer forum so you're maybe wrong about that, just an assumption :-)

    They need to sit and decide what game they really want this to be and stick with it. Right now they are trying to cater to the PvE community needs while trying not to alienate the PvP community. Too late. You can not make everyone happy.

    I think it was very clear from the beginning this game is for playwrs, nit for gamers. First evidence is the horizontal and completely optional progression system, many patches and fixes in the past up until now.
    @Kat-Truewalkerr posted a DEVQuote in another thread and it says exactly what i say. A game for everyone who's playing for fun and not to "own" and disdain other players their playstyles etc.
    Btw if yoüber better at pvp and do it wuthe a smoke on your face we can laugh together while i'm sinking.
    I allways hope i am a worthy foe and we all have fun, no matter loosing g or winning. Of course you sometimes want to bite into your desk or throw your mouse, but that's the moment you need to check what you are playing for?!
    Take a break if it gets you emotionally and comeback for fun. I mostly approach losses like, ah not a problem was fun anyway or i take a break and come back a day or two later to have fun playing again.

    One more thing

    The PvP community has not had the ear or the respect of Rare since the game came out.

    SIDE NOTE

    Also please don't talk about hypocrisy while being a huge hypocrite in your whole post.

    "You should listen to noobs" - While according to you the wise players do not post in the forums? "I've become wiser" - yet you do not post and avoid the forums completely?

    "The best thing you and we who are loyal fans of Sea if Thieves is to post neutral, making suggestions, post positive stuff we experienced ingame and if we feel the need to say something critic this needs to be constructive and not emotionally loaded and full of hate, accusations and personal attackings." - your whole post is pretty much attacking a particular player base.

    "Noob or carebaear is often not recognized as an insult, but it is an insult!" - You care about the use of words while you openly call the PvP community or those in the community Elitist over and over again.

    If you think noob or carebear is a derogatory term so is elitist in the way you use it.

    I personally don't care about any of the above mentioned. However, I am calling you out on your own hypocrisy.

    Thanks i will reflect this, because you are not completely wrong here.

  • @bugaboo-bill Its not that I do not take you seriously. It just that some times people have a fantasy over morality in the world. Of right and wrong.

    They believe things should just be fact because of morality.

    Its not that I'm being triggered. I have no emotions towards the person I am having a discussion or debate with. I get frustrated but not because they are not accepting that I am right. I get frustrated because there is obviously something I am not explaining right or something they are not seeing.

    I have not read Zhuangzi. From the context I might give it a read. However, yes I always believe I am right. This is not to say I won't change my mind if someone gives me facts to prove otherwise. I am always up for more information and I can change my mind if the facts prove me wrong. If I end up being wrong, I apologize and just move on to the next subject.

    I think everyone believes in themselves enough to believe the opinions or decisions they make are right until proven otherwise.

    If I don't know something, I say I don't know. If I believe to know something I will believe I am right. If I find out I'm wrong or someone shows me that I am, I apologize and move on. I however never think someone else is wrong.

    You can read all of my posts that I have ever written. I have never straight up and said "you are wrong" to someones opinion. I have never said that in real life either. Again right and wrong are subjective. I could be right 1 second about something and wrong about the same thing the next second.

    I dont see any defensiveness or protectiveness in my post, sorry i won't take that personally, but i see you misinterpreted my post to underline your following reaction.

    If I misinterpreted then I am sorry. Your post seemed defensive in the way you suggest how we should deal with or treat newer players. Also suggesting that we should not use certain words due to the effect it brings. To me that sounds protective and defensive. If I am wrong then so be it.

    Next about the dojo comment. You said that you have never seen any beginner say they want to be a master for nothing. I understand that which is why I asked what would you do if you did run into that. What I describe happens in game ALL the time. Also in the forums.

    Something becomes to hard, they demand it becomes easier. We try to help them and work them through it, they immediately dismiss us as PvP'ers who are trolling them or telling them to "git gud". We try to help, some players however might be getting tired of being name called and not having the advice that they give, with full intentions of helping the player, taken seriously.

    Also I don't want to get into a philosophical debate over good and evil, right or wrong. If we get into it, whatever credibility I have in the forum as a human being will go out the window, as it already has in real life.

    This is maybe the elitism i spoke off.

    You call it elitism when its just 2 different ways of playing. I think maybe you are disdaining our way of playing??

    I dont disagree in total, but it's again that is only true if you make playing games a serious competition instead of competing for fun mainly.
    And again you are disdaining people with a more relaxed approach along gaber, because you may think that just playing games is minor.

    Not disdaining. If you want to play casual thats fine. Just don't complain about how the game is too hard for casual play and demand PvP'ers not to PvP when you don't want it or ask for things to be easier.

    Some days ago someone didnt understand i am fine beeing mediocre.

    Thats fine, but if you were playing with someone and they did not like you playing mediocre. Why did you stick around? You suggest that everyone should be allowed to have fun yet you stayed on a ship ruining someone elses fun?

    I wont "put effort" in to become better.
    I mean why, i'm playing a game and do t prepare for a tournament or a job or whatever.
    See you guys seem to approach all and everything from a performance economy side, even playing games.
    I dont tell you not to do it, but i can have an opinion about that and tel you playing with you is not that funny, because you act a little like a party pooper, only having fun disdaining and "owning" others.

    Thats fine, but why is it not alright for us to do the same thing? Why can't we say the way you guys play is not fun? That you guys are being a party pooper but not joining in? Only have fun disdaining us and calling us names?

    Do you realize the massive amounts of hypocrisy over the subject matter yet? Not just you but do you realize the incredible amounts of hypocrisy over this simple issue?

    Its fine for you or them, but not for me or us?

    You say you want to teach me?!
    Seriously, know how to play the game and part of the fun is to deal with my own ibabilties sometimes and i dont need a teacher or someone help me improving to become more efficient.

    I won't offer advice if you don't complain about it or ask for it. So you want to play casually. Thats on you. Great do you. Just don't complain about how PvP'ers can't have fun by attacking you or how players can't have fun by being competitive.

    Seriously who for you think you are to act like that if we still talking about playing games.

    This is how I have fun, who are you to judge the way I have fun? Who do you think you are judging the way I have fun playing games competitively?

    Do I pick up a game of mario and start demanding Nintendo put a battle royal in it with guns and abilities? Demanding that they turn it into a competitive game?

    No. I didn't. I bought a game that has PvP in it. Unlike the casuals who bought a PvP game, then start demanding PvE servers or to be left alone.

    You are the kind of person telling others they do wrong and should do it you teached them playing a game although they already know how the game works and what they can do?

    No I am the kind of person who offers advice when someone makes a complaint. If they say something that is incorrect I will offer advice. If they don't want it fine, then demand things to be changed or make incorrect comments about the game.

    So you are one of these players sitting at a table telling others they better do this move now?!

    No but if they complain about losing and keep telling that they lost and its all the other guys fault because they would not let them win. Then I will tell them straight up that they lost because they suck.

    Woah i dont like playing with people telling me how to do it better, because it's just a game, i dont need to improve all the time. And if i do i do it because i got something by myself and not because someone told me to do so, because that's "better".
    That's true for everything else inofe, even in my Dojo, but not for playing games.
    Do you have childs? Try to tell them how they do better and see if the have fun playing with you. And as a singleparent father if a teen i'm talking gto try it with a child 3 to 5 years old.
    You are limiting and stopping creativity what is also a very important factor playing games.

    So here is the main issue of what we are having and what we have all over the place.

    Let me address the thing about children. So my god son is around 8 right now.

    I've played Street fighter with the kid among other things. NEVER let the little guy win. I DESTROY HIM. Chess, checkers, soccer, video games. I take him to school. I did that for years. Since he could hold a controller or pick up a chess piece.

    He gets mad, really mad when he loses. When he does lose I sit him down and we talk about what happen. He gets mad he can't beat me so I explain something to him. I am an adult, I have years of experience in something he just picked up. That somethings in life you can not be automatically good in. If he practices, if he really works hard, he can get better at different things.

    The kid has been killing in chess recently. He even got me in a couple of rounds in street fighter. His first victory yell was loud. "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHHH" Ran to his dad and told him in epic detail the beat down he gave me.

    You talk about creativity? Fun? Competition does not stunt creativity. In most cases competition actually makes people grow faster. Rivals have always been a thing. Its how people encourage competition. Like all things there is a right way and a not so right way, everyone has their own way to parent. Talking down to a child repeatedly as they are working hard is a no no. Telling them you believe in them and that they can do it is a big yes.

    Now everyone has a different way to raise their kid. Thats great. I have never been a fan of participation trophies. Kids thrive and grow on competition. Competition teaches us how to deal with losing, how to handle pressure, and among other things.

    Final point - Fun

    Fun, like all things, is subjective.

    In the forums we are told that the PvE players have to right to play the game how they want. That no one should tell any other group how to play. Then in the next sentence they tell the PvP community we shouldn't attack them.

    So we are not suppose to tell them how to play, but they tell us how to play? PvE are allowed to play to have fun, but PvP are not allowed to play to have fun??

    You want casuals to be able to just enjoy being casual players. To have fun doing what they want. Thats great. I want that too.

    What I have an issue with is the same casual players, who willingly bought a open world PvP game, start complaining about the PvP. Telling us we can't tell them how to play but then turn around and demand us to play a certain way.

    We give them advice and try to teach them. But wait you said you didn't want to learn or get better, you just want to have fun playing the game. Thats fine. If you don't want to learn or get better then you have no right to complain about losing.

    They have fun PvE'ing. We have fun PvP'ing. Unfortunately our fun may sometimes come at their expense. but again PVPVE GAME. They can always fight back. Its not about "owning" someone or "moment to shine". Its the PvP, its the fighting. If we win, steal treasure, or whatever we are still having fun. Even when we lose and get mad we still have fun.

    They want to play their way, which according to you shouldn't be wrong. That is correct. However we the PvP community are playing our way too. If their way is not wrong, neither is ours.

    Seriously the hypocrisy over the "Fun" subject needs to stop.

    SIDE NOTE You suggested I was being elitist to the comment of Rare not knowing how to play their own game. I've watched A LOT of their streams just to ascertain if they know or not. They in fact DO NOT know how to play their own game.

    Also you cant build a game for everyone. Trying to please everyone is a fools errand. Whats the word for someone living in delusions of fantasy? Thats the one I want to use for you since you enjoy calling me an elitist :).

  • We are offtopic now, but I do a short reply to main points.
    I don't disagree completely and I apreciate the time you took to answer. My post was from mobile, so many misspellings and in the end I also need to cut my answer,but anyway.
    @xultanis-dragon sagte in A return to civility:

    @bugaboo-bill Its not that I do not take you seriously. It just that some times people have a fantasy over morality in the world. Of right and wrong.

    That's idealism , at least for me i know having a strong opinion is hard to stay authentic all-time.

    They believe things should just be fact because of morality.

    Know what you are saying , I'm also critic about that,but cannot deny I'm also somewhat idealistic and have my believings about that.

    Its not that I'm being triggered. I have no emotions towards the person I am having a discussion or debate with. I get frustrated but not because they are not accepting that I am right. I get frustrated because there is obviously something I am not explaining right or something they are not seeing.

    We both have hard time to see the others approach :-)
    Good to debate on a civility level :-)

    I have not read Zhuangzi. From the context I might give it a read. However, yes I always believe I am right. This is not to say I won't change my mind if someone gives me facts to prove otherwise. I am always up for more information and I can change my mind if the facts prove me wrong. If I end up being wrong, I apologize and just move on to the next subject.

    So I do, you maybe don't like zhuangzi approach, but it's worth reading imho!

    I think everyone believes in themselves enough to believe the opinions or decisions they make are right until proven otherwise.

    If I don't know something, I say I don't know. If I believe to know something I will believe I am right. If I find out I'm wrong or someone shows me that I am, I apologize and move on. I however never think someone else is wrong.

    You can read all of my posts that I have ever written. I have never straight up and said "you are wrong" to someones opinion. I have never said that in real life either. Again right and wrong are subjective. I could be right 1 second about something and wrong about the same thing the next second.

    I dont see any defensiveness or protectiveness in my post, sorry i won't take that personally, but i see you misinterpreted my post to underline your following reaction.

    If I misinterpreted then I am sorry. Your post seemed defensive in the way you suggest how we should deal with or treat newer players. Also suggesting that we should not use certain words due to the effect it brings. To me that sounds protective and defensive. If I am wrong then so be it.

    In fact i'm idealistic about treating beginners and lower skilled players, because I believe (i am idelistic about) strong need allways to take care for weaker like in traffic the trucker need to take care for the car more , the car more for the motorcycle, this one more for the bicycle and this more for the pedestrian. Not everybody can upgrade even if he want , but everybody can downgrade and take a little care for the weaker. That's idealism and if you call it protectiveness then yes , I am protective for the weaker , I'm also more the Robin Hood Type of a pvper if I PvP and the setting is like that. But don't get me wrong here , I can be egotistical for sure.

    Next about the dojo comment. You said that you have never seen any beginner say they want to be a master for nothing. I understand that which is why I asked what would you do if you did run into that. What I describe happens in game ALL the time. Also in the forums.

    I let them have an experience , at best - and I for sure did wrong earlier - I don't "teach them a lesson", but give them the chance to see they are wrong by themself and become a little more humble. Mostly respect is given if you realize there is a skilled one, but friendly and modest willing to share knowledge without words, but in practice and body language , that's of course only possible in stuff like that, for playing it's different , I would just play with them and answer questions if they ask some.
    Teachings are often not good, because the other one hasn't asked for something. Only if there is someone asking questions he is able and willing to learn something.
    And we talk about playing a game, so maybe a lot of teachings are at the wrong place because it's mainly playing for fun and not for learning. Until someone want to learn to become better.

    Something becomes to hard, they demand it becomes easier. We try to help them and work them through it, they immediately dismiss us as PvP'ers who are trolling them or telling them to "git gud". We try to help, some players however might be getting tired of being name called and not having the advice that they give, with full intentions of helping the player, taken seriously.

    I agree in general, but rare has all the metrics Andi trust them they do the average to satisfy the majority.

    Also I don't want to get into a philosophical debate over good and evil, right or wrong. If we get into it, whatever credibility I have in the forum as a human being will go out the window, as it already has in real life.

    True - read Zhuangzi you will maybe like it!

    This is maybe the elitism i spoke off.

    You call it elitism when its just 2 different ways of playing. I think maybe you are disdaining our way of playing??

    I thought over that and yes a little bit, because of all the disdain about casuals, for fun players etc...
    I mean do you know many criticising the way I do or more gamers criticising casualty , mediocrity , beginners asking to make things more accessible.
    Btw I often argued that DR is hard , buttons it was before the nerf, I also was against a pve mode before,but I changed my mind because of arena, but that's another topic, so I was not asking for easy mode and pve only.
    That changed a little about pve modes, but again another story.

    I dont disagree in total, but it's again that is only true if you make playing games a serious competition instead of competing for fun mainly.
    And again you are disdaining people with a more relaxed approach along gaber, because you may think that just playing games is minor.

    Not disdaining. If you want to play casual thats fine. Just don't complain about how the game is too hard for casual play and demand PvP'ers not to PvP when you don't want it or ask for things to be easier.

    I understand, but the other way around is the same.
    Need to find the average and there will always be people who want it easier and other who want it harder.

    Some days ago someone didnt understand i am fine beeing mediocre.

    Thats fine, but if you were playing with someone and they did not like you playing mediocre. Why did you stick around? You suggest that everyone should be allowed to have fun yet you stayed on a ship ruining someone elses fun?

    No,that was in the forum only.

    I wont "put effort" in to become better.
    I mean why, i'm playing a game and do t prepare for a tournament or a job or whatever.
    See you guys seem to approach all and everything from a performance economy side, even playing games.
    I dont tell you not to do it, but i can have an opinion about that and tel you playing with you is not that funny, because you act a little like a party pooper, only having fun disdaining and "owning" others.

    Thats fine, but why is it not alright for us to do the same thing? Why can't we say the way you guys play is not fun? That you guys are being a party pooper but not joining in? Only have fun disdaining us and calling us names?

    You can, but call memoralistic , idealistic or whatever ,but think it the way I explained earlier when I talked about stronger and weaker and made the traffic example.

    Do you realize the massive amounts of hypocrisy over the subject matter yet? Not just you but do you realize the incredible amounts of hypocrisy over this simple issue?

    I understand you better now, yes!

    Its fine for you or them, but not for me or us?

    You say you want to teach me?!
    Seriously, know how to play the game and part of the fun is to deal with my own ibabilties sometimes and i dont need a teacher or someone help me improving to become more efficient.

    I won't offer advice if you don't complain about it or ask for it. So you want to play casually. Thats on you. Great do you. Just don't complain about how PvP'ers can't have fun by attacking you or how players can't have fun by being competitive.

    Seriously who for you think you are to act like that if we still talking about playing games.

    This is how I have fun, who are you to judge the way I have fun? Who do you think you are judging the way I have fun playing games competitively?

    Problem is, the way different people want to have fun is destroying each other's fun. Like some friends shoot hoops and then some NBA pros come and rule the yard.

    Do I pick up a game of mario and start demanding Nintendo put a battle royal in it with guns and abilities? Demanding that they turn it into a competitive game?

    That's right and we all agreed there is PvP, I'm not only fine with that,I also like it exactly the way it is.
    If there is nothing wrong about asking for more PvP and to get an Arena mode and it's also fine to ask for more cooperative content and a pve - coop mode.
    Because they already decided to split it, there is no argument against a pve or private mode anymore.
    So everybody can play like he or she wants.

    No. I didn't. I bought a game that has PvP in it. Unlike the casuals who bought a PvP game, then start demanding PvE servers or to be left alone.

    You are the kind of person telling others they do wrong and should do it you teached them playing a game although they already know how the game works and what they can do?

    No I am the kind of person who offers advice when someone makes a complaint. If they say something that is incorrect I will offer advice. If they don't want it fine, then demand things to be changed or make incorrect comments about the game.

    So you are one of these players sitting at a table telling others they better do this move now?!

    No but if they complain about losing and keep telling that they lost and its all the other guys fault because they would not let them win. Then I will tell them straight up that they lost because they suck.

    Woah i dont like playing with people telling me how to do it better, because it's just a game, i dont need to improve all the time. And if i do i do it because i got something by myself and not because someone told me to do so, because that's "better".
    That's true for everything else inofe, even in my Dojo, but not for playing games.
    Do you have childs? Try to tell them how they do better and see if the have fun playing with you. And as a singleparent father if a teen i'm talking gto try it with a child 3 to 5 years old.
    You are limiting and stopping creativity what is also a very important factor playing games.

    So here is the main issue of what we are having and what we have all over the place.

    Let me address the thing about children. So my god son is around 8 right now.

    I've played Street fighter with the kid among other things. NEVER let the little guy win. I DESTROY HIM. Chess, checkers, soccer, video games. I take him to school. I did that for years. Since he could hold a controller or pick up a chess piece.

    He gets mad, really mad when he loses. When he does lose I sit him down and we talk about what happen. He gets mad he can't beat me so I explain something to him. I am an adult, I have years of experience in something he just picked up. That somethings in life you can not be automatically good in. If he practices, if he really works hard, he can get better at different things.

    The kid has been killing in chess recently. He even got me in a couple of rounds in street fighter. His first victory yell was loud. "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHHH" Ran to his dad and told him in epic detail the beat down he gave me.

    I did it a little different and I am more convinced of cooperation as of competition regarding evolvement etc. But i also didn't let my daughter win all the time.
    But I'm not telling her life is about competition mainly, but cooperation!

    You talk about creativity? Fun? Competition does not stunt creativity. In most cases competition actually makes people grow faster. Rivals have always been a thing. Its how people encourage competition. Like all things there is a right way and a not so right way, everyone has their own way to parent. Talking down to a child repeatedly as they are working hard is a no no. Telling them you believe in them and that they can do it is a big yes.

    True ,but again i'm more of a cooperator.

    Now everyone has a different way to raise their kid. Thats great. I have never been a fan of participation trophies. Kids thrive and grow on competition. Competition teaches us how to deal with losing, how to handle pressure, and among other things.
    I also dislike participation trophys but ... You already know, cooperation over competition and that is not there is no competition or competition is bad.
    Final point - Fun

    Fun, like all things, is subjective.

    In the forums we are told that the PvE players have to right to play the game how they want. That no one should tell any other group how to play. Then in the next sentence they tell the PvP community we shouldn't attack them.

    So we are not suppose to tell them how to play, but they tell us how to play? PvE are allowed to play to have fun, but PvP are not allowed to play to have fun??

    See I agree, but that's a problem all mixed games have and is created by Rare wanting to please more than just one group. There is an average and all who stick on the edges and forth more extremes will become unsatisfied in the long run .

    You want casuals to be able to just enjoy being casual players. To have fun doing what they want. Thats great. I want that too.

    What I have an issue with is the same casual players, who willingly bought a open world PvP game, start complaining about the PvP. Telling us we can't tell them how to play but then turn around and demand us to play a certain way.

    I don't recognize it that way , I think its more about meet in the middle, but fronts are very much hardened over time and not only because of this game,but because of the experiences made in former titles they played, and I'm talking of both groups.

    We give them advice and try to teach them. But wait you said you didn't want to learn or get better, you just want to have fun playing the game. Thats fine. If you don't want to learn or get better then you have no right to complain about losing.

    Never complained about loosing, really not. We just looked at a fort yesterday when we were very successfully for the last days. It was a good fight and I had fun, and I also learned something or let's say it was a good training.

    They have fun PvE'ing. We have fun PvP'ing. Unfortunately our fun may sometimes come at their expense. but again PVPVE GAME. They can always fight back. Its not about "owning" someone or "moment to shine". Its the PvP, its the fighting. If we win, steal treasure, or whatever we are still having fun. Even when we lose and get mad we still have fun.

    Like me. And the only thing I say is I Rare makes the game more casual friendly then there is for sure a reason, we may not agree to it, but we have to accept it and we can complain here about it.

    They want to play their way, which according to you shouldn't be wrong. That is correct. However we the PvP community are playing our way too. If their way is not wrong, neither is ours.

    All fine, you will get an Arena mode and you should for sure keep pvping in the adventure mode. I'll do the same!

    Seriously the hypocrisy over the "Fun" subject needs to stop.

    SIDE NOTE You suggested I was being elitist to the comment of Rare not knowing how to play their own game. I've watched A LOT of their streams just to ascertain if they know or not. They in fact DO NOT know how to play their own game.

    Also you cant build a game for everyone. Trying to please everyone is a fools errand. Whats the word for someone living in delusions of fantasy? Thats the one I want to use for you since you enjoy calling me an elitist :).

    Thing is there is no right or wrong playing games,if your son want to bake some Lego although Lego is not supposed to be baked who can tell he's not playing and having fun :-)

    I thank you for getting more insight and understanding of your side, maybe you also can get something from mine.

    And sorry for misspelling,again on mobile and not that much time to write and check everything.

    Have fun o7

  • @deckhands and @Quartermasters there seems to be a little disagreement ongoing in a post about civility, derailing the thread.
    Can we get a lock, or a removal of said posts please?

  • @bugaboo-bill One of your posts has been edited as it goes against the Forum Rules and Pirate Code

    Obscene and Vulgar Language
    Swearing is not permitted on the Forums and a profanity filter is in place to block it. Attempts to bypass the profanity filter will result in a temporary ban from the Forums and a final warning. If the action continues, a permanent ban from the Forums will be issued.

    Please keep the Forum Rules and Pirate Code in mind in future.

    Thank you.

  • Eh the word you edited is in no way more vulgar than the degorative noob and carebaear and was to describe a situation or an internet reaction to something that happened.
    I need not understand that people use derogative terms here but the opposite of a candystorm gets moderated.
    But i'm anyway at the end of discussion here and wont argue further.
    Thank you.

  • @bugaboo-bill With your response I can see that I understand you and you understand me. Thank you for the discussion good sir. Even though we are in disagreement we at least understand each other.

    Thank you kindly and hope the Lady of the Sea's gift you with luck on her open waters. Be safe and sail free. o7

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