@faal-zoor-kriid said in Scuttle ship to avoid PvP?:
@mythicalfable said in Scuttle ship to avoid PvP?:
I can say the same and tell you to be honorable and leave me alone if I am just enjoying the sea.
If I am acting out such fantasy, then yes I will. However, if I or anyone else who engages pure PvP should cross a path with you, this won't happen. Every fantasy has a place and time. Each has their pros and cons. Point I was making is that we should not only ask other players to give everything to us, but also learn to give back.
Except the pro of your fantasy is that you can dictate when my fantasy is in the right or wrong place/time by deciding on attacking me. I don't have a magic bubble deflecting shots saying your fantasy is in the wrong place, so I am at a disadvantage always then. I understand though, I am just saying how PvP dictates here.
Exactly why PvE players need proper leverage. This is the exact reason behind imbalance, but this is just the dilated symptom so we need to dig deeper. Very keen observation there though. Kudos!
This game is not balanced properly, but at least we can amuse each other while we wait for further updates.
Literally that is all the threads are these days, not in early alpha, posts were constructive, not amusing then. (Some are still constructive now, but they are pushed to the bottom).
Weren't present around that time, but it does seem like very rarely a topic is really about a spot on constructive criticism and brilliant ideas. I do understand the concerns though. Players in this community are desperate for this game to succeed and there's no question why. The game does have a huge potential.
As for PvP players playing to just sink ships, so? That is their play style and I have mine, I could care less what your passion is as I have the liberty to not cater myself to conform to your's if I do not wish. I understand that people are different, and expect that.
Individual liberty is not the issue here, but shared responsibility. One that isn't treated well enough. Treat players in kind and you'll learn the difference between "not caring" and "caring enough".
I understand that, but since what seems like 80% of the other people here don't care, then why am I do put myself at a disadvantage... I am, just being hypothetical, but yes, I say don't care, but really I care when you aren't being a, for lack of a better word, annoyance on the forums. If I saw you on the seas, I would care as you actually aren't irrational, but to the people who scream racist slurs and just flame on the forums, nope.
My mind clearly wonders at this point so I will return after I get some sleep.
If someone scuttled their ship because they didn't want to fight me I wouldn't care,...
You don't have to, but because you don't, we who have to endure the somewhat sudden loss of our fantasy shouldn't receive the same reward.
Like I said, inverse. If someone got sunk just cruising around and didn't care, why should I have to endure the same KOS mess and have my fun ruined. Again, hypothetical, just showing the other side of what people might think.
...because I only fight when I am provoked,...
Sadly not all would. Those who abuse scuttling are accidentally excluded from the natural series of confrontation. I don't mind if crews jump from their ship to drown themselves or otherwise abandon their ship, but scuttling doesn't seem to be the right way to go. It neglects the need of innocent players who do pure PvP because scuttling doesn't differentiate griefers from stranded ship situations from marauders. It is used in all cases, but only one does not warrant it.
I agree, scuttling when a ship is far away just cause you see it coming somewhat your way is sorta dumb, I would only do it if you followed me for at least 5 minutes, and I let you close in and see cannons being shot. However, with the current KOS going on, I think it is safe to say the majority of times the auto scuttlers aren't missing much besides cannon balls, so there is some merit to it.
Well yeah, at least we save some cannon balls.
Wait, I am confused, so you for a crew abandoning ship, meaning you have no resistance in a fight, but are against people auto sinking their ship, meaning you still have no resistance or fight... So........ does that mean you only care about the physical number of ships you physically sunk?
Players jumping overboard drowning themselves does not break immersion coz pirate crews were known to actually do so back then, especially when a crew sailing under a blood red flag appeared from the horison. At that point they would rather drown than face a gruesome inevitable death. Merely scuttling has no depth like this. :(
Number factor is similar to what Gimli and Legolas had between each other when they killed their targets while calculating which one gets more kills, but in this case we speak about ships, not necessarily the crews. If the crew scuttles their ship, I don't get a point from it. This may seem like I don't care about players, but I do respect them. Without the participation of other players I would be a lot less be happy.
...when I believe someone has loot,...
Could you share your observations what exactly leads you to believe a crew has loot? This is important for the topic.
Literally by watching a ship go between like 3 islands without stopping at an outpost, unless they are hoarding a billion resources, then they are doing voyages, maybe exploring, but who does that?
Thanks!
...or I know the ship just shoots on sight because I watched them just try to attack like 3 other ships.
I don't know the exact odds, but this occasion you mentioned sounds like a really rare treat. You actually witnessed 4 ships in one bubble? Did you really or was this just an example?
I didn't mean at once, but following someone at a distance and seeing they are going after people is easy to spot. I have seen 3 to 4 ship battles before though. cough cough forts before Wednesday
Thanks again!
Any loot they had will float up, no matter if they are sunk or scuttle.
This is part of the griefing issue. Scuttling doesn't save your loot from griefers and in the occasion of actual looters, leaving no loot behind would not suffice. Hence scuttling should be modified to cater all involved crews thorough a window of opportunity.
This means that any on board loot would be transported with the ship while any overboard loot in our grasps would be left to us. The feature would be ferry locked and require the presence of the whole crew after haunting based scouting is performed at least once.
Again, wait what? Scuttling doesn't save your loot from the guys chasing you, no. The thing is though, do you care about your loot? If yes, then either try to make it to an outpost, if no, scuttle. I don't understand this whole modify part, so you want people who scuttle to keep some of their stuff? Are you shooting yourself in the foot as a PvP player? Even if this was implemented, how would one get loot to go overboard to stop the crew from scuttling to keep 100%?
Depends which fantasy I am acting from moment to moment. I don't value loot when I am in a "marauder mode" just sinking ships, but when I am in a "voyager mode" I do value loot.
As a pure PvP player (a "marauder"), I don't mind the loot that may stay behind, but I do mind any griefer who tries to break innocent and honest players thorough similar behaviour pattern effectively ashaming our name in the process. Thus I want scuttling to give a decent chance for PvE players to pack their stuff and relocate elsewhere with their ship and their earned loot while giving honest looters their fair window of opportunity to actually loot some before the transportation happens. Sinking a ship would still be an option, but not always a viable one.
If they kept loot when they scuttled, I would understand people's argument against it, but I can't because all it is is people wanting others to cater to their playstyle.
This is why we need a reasonable compromise. Instead of both parties offending one another over and over again raising the level of toxicity at the same time, scuttling needs to be modified to cater all players thorough situational dependency, a chance of reward and the player influenced ability to at least keep some of the loot without surrendering it all to griefers whenever met.
Ohhh, I sort of get the modify part now. Still though, that would take part of the risk vs reward out of the game. The current rick vs reward for PvE players is fine, we just need some sort of risk for PvP players to hinder shooting on sight and griefing.
Not necessarily. It merely adds a deadline making it rather even with the current risk and reward ratio when paired with some other suggestions I've given, but with the presence of fundamental griefing control. Those who benefit from this change are the looters (loot oriented PvPers) and voyagers themselves (in case griefing happens). Since loot doesn't interest pure PvP players, they only get to enjoy from their cleared name and the thought letting PvE players keep their stuff, coz we still don't do anything with their stuff except cannon balls, planks and bananas. They are useful.
So in the end the only thing that is ruined is griefing. The way I designed the idea is to force griefers to assimilate looter behaviour which can be verified easily by a portion of missing loot. Forcing griefers to assimilate looter behaviour makes it impossible for the player to know which one they met unless they receive all their stuff with the ship. This would be the only way to know if a griefer was on the job or not or if it simply was an honest marauder.
The issue here, around scuttling would be solved, but the rest of the issues beyond scuttling would sadly still linger.
The game is about making your own story and pirate, if I want to be a pirate that takes himself out before the enemy can, I can.
I wish this was about making your own story, but alas such is not exactly the result. The only rewarding fantasy is delivered by pure PvP... except now the tension and satisfaction is lost due the rise of scuttling abuse. Now the only ones with guaranteed satisfaction, albeit without tension, are... well I have no idea who would actually enjoy this phase of the developing series of events.
In this build of the game, yes, your right. But in the grand scheme of things, it is not about pure PvP. Once the game is more fleshed out, we will have the ability for your own story.
I hope so. I indeed hope so. Not that I would quit doing pure PvP. I would simply be much more occupied by trying out new things and such.
Can someone honestly say why they like this situation we are in? Would help me greatly to assess the occasion further.
Nobody does, that is why all these people are here saying how PvP players need to get off their high horses and let the game have an even playing field, we may not be right, but many of us are actually giving constructive thought, rather than spamming "this is a pvp game".
Yeah. I think this game is more about the acting part in relation to the fantasies we want to experience, not necessarily just the two gameplay styles that are intertwined here. They are clearly not balanced enough though. As a player who enjoys from a wide variety of games, I can tell there's a major issue here.
I hate to be one of these kinds of people,...
How so? Which people exactly?
The people who just say "gi gud" or "you bought the wrong game".
They have a point there, but it doesn't apply to everyone. Getting good at this or that is not necessarily the solution to every case. The evidence need to narrow down the possibilities enough first.
The 'wrong game part' can also be true, but we need to be very careful before we lay down that assessment.
...but if all you seek is PvP in this game and are getting annoyed you aren't getting it, play Blackwake or something.
The argument is that due the variables in play that were, allowed natural conflicts to occur. Sadly the griefers utilise these conflicts very successfully so we do need a proper feature to turn griefing into a reasonable asset. The scuttling feature works up to a point, but it isn't enough. In its current form, scuttling merely tilted the scale in favour of trolling while griefing stays unaffected.
Much like the brig, we all can agree that a lot is abused and that changes need to be made...right? We can also agree that both sides need to be taken into account when fixing these issues...right?
Correct. I have a solution to the brig issue as well. ^^
I don't mean to come off as mean or wanting to argue, but it is balanced,...
By the time you read this line, I wager you have understood the issue or at least have glimpsed the light at the end of the tunnel. The feature just tilted the balance of the scale toward trolling, but the feature should not be removed. It should be modified to balance the scale.
This tactic tilted the balance for people who had imagination and came up with a tactic to counter something, cause and effect, people just don't want adapt to it.
Can you elaborate a bit more later? My mind is not exactly very stable right now. I'm just going relatively fast thorough your reply so I can at least leave you a decent reply before I go to bed.
if I scuttle with loot, I pretty much surrendered,...
Which is when griefers win, in case you truly got into conflict with such crew. With looters, at least you are soothed with the thought that the loot actually serves a purpose and that you didn't meet griefers. I would love the loot to actually have value amongst players who practise pure PvP, but currently that sadly ain't so. Even without such loot, I am sure that those who do pure PvP would gladly allow PvE players to keep their loot coz they value it so much. Only griefers and trolls would dare to intervene.
There are people who believe if I can't have it no one can, so not everyone will care if their loot served a purpose.
Good point. I cannot fathom myself doing that so therefore it didn't cross my mind.
I agree about PvP players having to value loot. However, the only person who says they would rather let the sunk guy have their loot is you, everyone else I see says "git gud your stuff is mine".
That's what I want when I am in the marauder mode I mentioned, coz I don't need the loot. Obviously when I am in the looter mode, I want to have my effort have meaning so a window of opportunity would suffice especially if we could greatly mitigate griefing at the same time due this feature.
...and the only arguments I actually seem to see are ones that are inverse to either side when you actually think about it, you just have to live with it, much how a PvE player has to live with PvP players.
That's the quagmire we currently are in. The solution is the compromise I suggested.
Until both sides can agree to compromise, we will have this issue. However, I see the majority voice of PvE players putting out constructive stuff, and the majority voice of PvP players going "LALALALALALA" and arguing.
That's a real pity. We really need to look at the issue from as many angles as possible. Reasoning will allow us to get thorough this, I'm certain. Compromise is inevitable, but only if we know how to trace the symptoms to the core issue itself.
I agree with some of the stuff you said, but like I originally stated, the problem is inverse and neither side is right,...
True. This is why I advocate not only a compromise to the scuttling feature, but solutions to some other important issues as well. If they are left as is, I'm afraid that the symptoms here will just get stretched as well.
...but the side that results to just arguing and anger is more wrong,...
Again, true.
...which can be either, but there are a select few we tend to see that we can relate this to very easily.
Such as?
Now I will go to bed, but please do go on. I will return to this after I wake up. Goodnight. ^^
