[MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback

@usualbarley8154 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@cotu42

I've tried to help you understand that Xbox players were only given the choice of if they want to crossplay or not. We don't get to choose what input we play with if we want to play without crossplay.

If we want to play without crossplay vs other console players we have to use the default control method.

My question is why? Maybe due to the input variety actually being the main reason why xbox was losing more frequently than PC?

Why does xbox need to be limited in their choice to opt out if the controller is not required?

We are not being given input preference like you seem to think we are. If we choose to not crossplay we give up choice of inputs.

You do get input model choices. You are provided with controller only combat if you want as well.

1. Mouse and Keyboard or controller with crossplay.
2. Controller only, but limited to xbox.

Why is the input for xbox only servers being limited? Is this needed? Why if this is indeed needed do we not have crossplay options to also provide the input model choice.

In any case whether you see it as a xbox with controller required or controller with xbox required... the fact remains that PC users are denied the choice for controller only combat while provided for xbox.

Therefore if you believe that Controller vs Mouse and keyboard combat is unfair, we need crossplay controller servers.

If you believe xbox players are not required to play crossplay and combat is fine, then xbox on mouse and keyboard must be able to join opt out.

In any case, the current system is flawed for both xbox users that want to opt out with mouse and keyboard and PC players that want to opt into a controller versus controller crossplay environment.

You should stop trying to make your case for crossplay servers that are restricted to controllers by comparing it to the Xbox match making preference. Because they are not as related as you think they are.

My point exactly, the 2 are not related and yet they are bound together by the opt out preference option. This should have never been done.

My entire premise is that controller only should be its own thing and xbox only should be its own thing.

These requirements being bound together is unfair in one way or another.

You should instead make the case to rare, not in a Xbox opt out thread, that you think there's enough Xbox and PC players who use controller that would like to shut out mouse and keyboard users that rare should further split the players in crossplay. Also why controller users should be catered to, to that degree, for choosing to play with controllers.

That is exactly what I have been doing. My thread that I made was locked and I was directed here. I am asking for Rare to add crossplay servers with controller only combat. It is part of this conversation, as xbox players like you claim it is me trying to siphon, get (force) xbox players to face me while all I ask is for is the option to experience the same controller combat as that is being offered to the xbox community.

I think it is part of the xbox opt out feedback, as it is my belief that many of the opt out xbox users are currently doing it for the controller only combat system and not because they do not want to play with PC. Naturally neither of us have the numbers on this, as it has never been done and is why I am asking for them to add it to the game. Allow people to choose, if my preference isn't viable for making servers I will be thrown in with the mixed group.

Additionally I am indicating that if xbox players should be able to opt out, making a requirement regarding their input model is unfair to them, as input whether on PC or Xbox is a supported aspect of their gameplay and balance options being provided should not be limited to either. So, if it is truly about hardware advantages of PC... xbox players should not be limited by their supported input choice.

You might believe the current version is an improvement to before, what I am trying to do is make the game even better for all. You seem now your preference is covered to defend the status quo very hard without consideration of controller players or xbox one players.

To me that sounds very biased and if you really were that opposed to PC players playing with xbox if they so choose, it must be optional. You would not be defending the controller requirement.

@cotu42
I have a question..... How many PC games support the option you are asking for? Controller only servers and not a group PC play with both. Not a PC player so this is a legitimate question for knowledge sake. Just give me a percentage wise if you can. Thanks.

@cokney-charmer said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@boxcar-squidy my answer to many is that at the end of the day, with all the attempts to balance the platforms and the input devices since the game launching and failing as well as the rather negative support and drop in numbers of Xbox console players picking up and sticking with SoT, RARE had no other option but to provide the default Xbox console and controller game experience.

Crossplay should always be optional, forced crossplay experiment that began with SoT in coming to the end of the first two years ultimately failed for a lot of people, and yes, lesser of two evils is to have a default Xbox console and controller pool.

It has already proved a success for those who wanted it and who are trying it in under a week, but now RARE need to work on getting the Main crossplay working as well.

I really hope they do.

There's no actual evidence of failed efforts to balance, dropping player numbers or negative support though. That's all anecdotal. If anything, with 10 million players support has been growing. It's all he said she said stuff.

If Rare actually gave us some details then you might well be proven correct, but there again, so might I.

It's a hard pill to swallow without actually having the facts though.

A change this fundamental to the entire premise of the game deserves a proper explanation.

Particularly when it's become such an emotive issue, with lies, misinformation, assuptions and accusations flying back and forth from both sides.

That's the sort of healing I'd like to see. Give us the facts Rare. If this needed to be done, show us why. Most of us would accept this decision much more readily if it were explained to us by someone official and without the "because PC players are evil" dramatics.

From the start I've wanted a fair playing field for xbox. What turned me against you lot was the abuse I experienced as a PC player over this issue.

Rare has a responsibility here, because right now there's a convincing argument that they see PC players as something that they're willing to sacrifice. Rare are gonna do what Rare are gonna do, but both Rare and MS are trying to break into the PC marketplace, honestly, do you think the crossplay opt out is helping their reputation? Because I know what people are saying about them in other places. If you think industry/media people aren't watching this and making judgements about whether Xbox Studios can be regarded as legitimate actors in the PC development space then you're badly mistaken. This is a bad move and is causing major reputational damage. Timing is pretty bad on it too. What with series-x on the horizon.

Series-X is a PC bundled with a controller. With a range of specs from what I hear, so there will be power disparities within the xbox ecosystem from now on. I think it's time you all woke up and had a real look at which way the wind is blowing.

@inboundbomb said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@cotu42
I have a question..... How many PC games support the option you are asking for? Controller only servers and not a group PC play with both. Not a PC player so this is a legitimate question for knowledge sake. Just give me a percentage wise if you can. Thanks.

Can you let me know how many Xbox games have the option to opt out of gameplay with cross platform that aren't Battle Royale?

Better yet, how many Xbox games that support Mouse/Keyboard have an opt out of playing with each other because of controller?

@fadingtojosh said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@inboundbomb said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@cotu42
I have a question..... How many PC games support the option you are asking for? Controller only servers and not a group PC play with both. Not a PC player so this is a legitimate question for knowledge sake. Just give me a percentage wise if you can. Thanks.

Can you let me know how many Xbox games have the option to opt out of gameplay with cross platform that aren't Battle Royale?

Better yet, how many Xbox games that support Mouse/Keyboard have an opt out of playing with each other because of controller?

The only other cross platform game i have played is Dauntless and it was PVE so no need for an opt out, so I don't know to be honest due to the fact I don't play twitch games as those anymore and a Battle Royal never was my style and I never played as such. As for Xbox supporting M&K games maybe 3% out of all the games available to us counting the backwards compatible games, indie and arcade games as well. Just as guess. Since you jumped in to ask I ask the same question from you then. Care to elaborate for me please with the best of your knowledge? Thanks.

@inboundbomb a limited amount of games offers controller only. Many have always just thrown us together and told us the option to choose is yours. I cannot give you a percentage, as it would be based on my limited knowledge and I have no idea how accurate that may be. Yet the number is increasing, as even major franchises like Call of Duty are adding it to games due to them being crossplay titles. The fact is that Rare was ahead of the curve and now just slammed the breaks and went in reverse.

The numbers of players that come from consoles do not want to be given the excuse the choice is yours and if you choose a controller you just have to deal with it, even if combat by design as is the case with competitive shooters like CoD is going to be unfair.

Crossplay means they now cater to multiple platforms within one ecosystem and the expectations of all of them. If they want to provide people with the ability to play controller versus controller in order to keep the now larger group of controller players happy. They have been giving us PC players access as well, since a game experience option must not be limited in a crossplay title by the platform you choose. Everyone must be able to use the settings that are supported and play together if they so choose.

This is why controller players on PC buy a crossplay title. It is one of the best developments in the gaming industry in my view. The fact is with support of the console communities we should now be more visible than before, we now should have the numbers to be considered and are able to enjoy a more even playing field because of it.

Yet Rare decided to break their promise of a true, non compromise crossplay and swap back to the just deal with it exclusive privilege model, which used to be bound by the games exclusive nature; xbox only, PC only, PS only... at least then we knew what we were buying. This addition is 2 years after the promises to us that we would be equals and exactly the opposite of a crossplay titles promises to deliver, based on their own statements of what the Sea of Thieves crossplay is supposed to be about.

@cotu42 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@inboundbomb a limited amount of games offers controller only. Many have always just thrown us together and told us the option to choose is yours. I cannot give you a percentage, as it would be based on my limited knowledge and I have no idea how accurate that may be. Yet the number is increasing, as even major franchises like Call of Duty are adding it to games due to them being crossplay titles. The fact is that Rare was ahead of the curve and now just slammed the breaks and went in reverse.

The numbers of players that come from consoles do not want to be given the excuse the choice is yours and if you choose a controller you just have to deal with it, even if combat by design as is the case with competitive shooters like CoD is going to be unfair.

Crossplay means they now cater to multiple platforms within one ecosystem and the expectations of all of them. If they want to provide people with the ability to play controller versus controller in order to keep the now larger group of controller players happy. They have been giving us PC players access as well, since a game experience option must not be limited in a crossplay title by the platform you choose. Everyone must be able to use the settings that are supported and play together if they so choose.

This is why controller players on PC buy a crossplay title. It is one of the best developments in the gaming industry in my view. The fact is with support of the console communities we should now be more visible than before, we now should have the numbers to be considered and are able to enjoy a more even playing field because of it.

Yet Rare decided to break their promise of a true, non compromise crossplay and swap back to the just deal with it exclusive privilege model, which used to be bound by the games exclusive nature; xbox only, PC only, PS only... at least then we knew what we were buying. This addition is 2 years after the promises to us that we would be equals and exactly the opposite of a crossplay titles promises to deliver, based on their own statements of what the Sea of Thieves crossplay is supposed to be about.

Thank you for your answer. I was thinking on purchasing a PC and would be like you using a controller mostly and was wondering how the market was on PC gaming. Again thank you.

@pomalotacusmk3 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@monkeyshishan
Firstly, 'most of the time you just said dont know' is inaccurate. (ONE) I said noone knows. Until rare announces that they are working on a scarlett version, there is every chance the game is a carbon copy of the Xbox version. You do not know any better, and neither do I. The power of the scarlett and what its capable of does not imply that a backwards compatible game will be optimised. For example, every xbox backwards compatible game to date has run exactly the same, unless certain developers decide to enhance them. For example, the halo games, dmc, resident evil, and a few others. The large majority are identical to initial release.

Secondly, why would you need to hunt through 22 pages to find my response? Its pasted directly into dragons post, and its pasted directly into my reply to dragon, and my reply to you. You already read it, thats why you decided to @ me on dragons behalf. Dragons post and your post are the only times ive mentioned scarlett in this thread. More importantly, if you didnt go searching thru 22 pages, how on earth do you know what i said 'most of the time'?(TWO)

Now, where did i say anything about pc having an advantage with spawn times? Oh thats right, i didnt...nice try though!(THREE)

Lets examine what i actually said about ssd and scarlett...
"Rare should fix the ferry/mermaid so ssd provides no advantage, just like every other Xbox game"

Its right there, in the text you quoted, so you can call me hypocritical and prejudicial,(FOUR) but everyone can see that you:
A Lack reading comprehension, or
B Are deliberately lying
There is no option C.

I even said that if rare optimize sot for scarlett and force it into crossplay, id just go back to my old Xbox and opt out. None of that reads like someone seeking an advantage.

"So anything more than 30fps and more graphics means that you are saying no to opt out. Just anything better than Xbox. Good so when the Scarlett comes out and it's in opt out server we should see you fighting just as hard to get it removed completely from opt out."

Did you even read my response to dragon? Or at the least my response to you?
I listed 3 possible outcomes. Option 2... If rare release an optimized version of sot, with high frames, graphics, etc, it should be put in the open servers. I really dont know how else you could have interpreted that...

Unforunately, i will not be here campaigning at all. If rare breaks the Xbox only servers by adding an enhanced scarlett version to the pool, i will not be spending another 2 years trying to fix it. I will be deleting the game.

You are correct about assumptions. Im trying to guess what may happpen when scarlett drops, but i dont know, thats why there was 3 possibilities in my reply, not 1 possibility. But i am not making assumptions about pc hacks. Anyone can use youtube. Are you trying to convince Xbox players that pc players will cease hacking if given access to opt out servers? Lol.

So (FOUR)
Four is the number of times you lied about what i said, misrepresented what i said, or attacked my character and principles.

You can respond if you like, but you have lost the debate when you resort to lies and insults.

To be fair, different sides of the argument though we may have been on. I cannot fault your logic on this. If opt out is really the 30 FPS and controller version, then I don't think, taking the long term view here, that this will still be a problem by 2022.

The opt out servers will be a pool of players that gets smaller and smaller over time, until they become completely irrelevant.

Shame to leave good pirates behind like that, but I guess they didn't want to play with the rest of the community anyway so who cares right?

@pomalotacusmk3 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

For example, every xbox backwards compatible game to date has run exactly the same, unless certain developers decide to enhance them. For example, the halo games, dmc, resident evil, and a few others.

This is innacurate. Even without a patch, there are plenty of examples of Xbox 360 games running better on Xbox One through backwards compatibility. I suggest you check out Digital Foundry for their analysis in this regard. There are a lot of instances where simply running on the better hardware has resulted in more consistent frame times and locked frame rates.

I listed 3 possible outcomes. Option 2... If rare release an optimized version of sot, with high frames, graphics, etc, it should be put in the open servers. I really dont know how else you could have interpreted that...

Just to be clear, does this include a possible optimised version on Xbox One X?

Unforunately, i will not be here campaigning at all. If rare breaks the Xbox only servers by adding an enhanced scarlett version to the pool, i will not be spending another 2 years trying to fix it. I will be deleting the game.

Are you trying to convince Xbox players that pc players will cease hacking if given access to opt out servers? Lol.

But without "hackers" on Series X/scarlett, surely the playing field is just as even? Why shouldn't Series X players be able to play with other console players and have the same opt out? Especially if they do release an optimised performance patch for Xbox One X?

By the way, the number of "hackers" on PC is low enough to be a non-issue. Most of what is reported as hacking are things with are exploitable within the game without additional software and possible on both platforms.

@usualbarley8154 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@realstyli
All this worrying about Series X by PC players is so transparent.

It's not your key to having Xbox players forced back into Crossplay with you.

If I am completely honest, I don't want Xbox players on my servers. Most of the bad experiences I've had in the game have been Xbox One players because they are in party chat and unwilling to talk and chill. Not saying I've had no PvP with other PC players but I've had far better fun and good times with PC players than console players. So I couldn't care less. I play with a controller and don't even mind the perceived disadvantage... from experience, it's not as bad as it's made out in a game with no headshots.

I'm not worried about Series X players, I am genuinely asking a question about where they fit into all this.

@tak225 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@cotu42 I understand what your saying somewhat but that bring me back to something I said before to you if you was to put a percentage on it what percentage of users on pc opt for controller on that platform if I had to out a percentage to it would be surprised if 5% use it has there preferred input method maybe there are games they might have a controller but I am talking about preferred method how many sea of thieves pc players are there that actually only use controller I think if you get what you want the sea would certainly be empty for you and you would have to hope Xbox players opt in to play with you taking into the metrics in place it does not seem like something that's worth rare investing into aside from some people who are unhappy at the opt out and possibly trying to reverse the decision your the only one asking for controller pc servers so as a controller users you may have to question making pc your preferred platform

I'd love to see the percentage of PC players who use a controller, all of my crew are PC controller players for starters.

There are a multitude of other reasons we choose to play on PC over Xbox One and I'm sure others have their reasons. A lot of it comes down to just not having the spare funds to buy a console for one game when you already have a PC capable of running it better.

I wouldn't necessarily want an opt out though, I don't really feel at much of a disadvantage by using a controller. Others might have more accuracy with K&M but I personally struggle with WASD controls, and can usually make up for shortcomings with smart thinking. Not everyone playing K&M on PC is a PvP god thankfully. I've even played Overwatch on PC with a controller and not struggled.

@usualbarley8154 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@cotu42

You're way over thinking this.
Crossplay opt out is restricted to controller because that's the default input that comes with Xbox.

You can continue to misrepresent what it as a choice of inputs, but that's not really what it is.

1. The game supports both inputs officially, how is it not a choice of input based combat? It isn't about input, it is about input based combat preference!
2. You think the filter of the controller only was not a deliberate choice of Rare? Because they put time into it to make it work.
3. Do you not think controller only combat is equal to that of controller versus mouse and keyboard?

Both platforms have input support for both. Yet Rare only added controller only combat servers for xbox! They spent time and effort to not have mouse and keyboard users in the mix including that of xbox.

Input model is a preference of players that does affect combat. Else they would have just allowed all xbox players to be able to opt out as you believe must be provided, optional. Why are they not allowed to opt out of xbox console versus PC? Isn't that unfair! Should not be forced on them! What does their input device have anything to do with it?

Why should you be given those exclusive rights?

You state that I am overthinking it now? What is to overthink, Rare added more than required for xbox opt out. Why would that be? Maybe because it is needed for combat?

This isn't complicated to understand, I provided you with everything and you just don't want xbox players to choose! This is a crossplay game, allow people to choose to play with their preferences and crossplay.

You just don't have a rebuttal as all I am stating is factual, logical and sound.

@tak225 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@realstyli I would be interested to see the percentages I would guess controller using pc players are in the low end of the spectrum if it's above 15% I would be shocked

Yeah, I don't even think it's that high. But I am curious to see the stats.

@tak225 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@cotu42 I understand what your saying somewhat but that bring me back to something I said before to you if you was to put a percentage on it what percentage of users on pc opt for controller on that platform if I had to out a percentage to it would be surprised if 5% use it has there preferred input method maybe there are games they might have a controller but I am talking about preferred method how many sea of thieves pc players are there that actually only use controller I think if you get what you want the sea would certainly be empty for you and you would have to hope Xbox players opt in to play with you taking into the metrics in place it does not seem like something that's worth rare investing into aside from some people who are unhappy at the opt out and possibly trying to reverse the decision your the only one asking for controller pc servers so as a controller users you may have to question making pc your preferred platform

Aren't all pirates all equal? You are with more, so you got it first. However shouldn't they develop the games for all? Does it matter whether we are 5% or 20% if we are forced to buy a new hardware product in order to experience a fair combat system?

How many xbox players are preferring mouse and keyboard? A similar or smaller percentage most likely and yet they made an effort to ensure that they cannot opt out against those PC players. Why is this small group being so targeted to provide others with a controller only combat system? What made that worthy of an investment to create a controller only environment.

Nobody should be forced to buy a PC or Xbox in order to play with the combat system that is balanced based on input. That is what crossplay is supposed to be providing.

Xbox players are given the option to face more mouse and keyboard users with crossplay as that is the default of PC. Yet PC controller users are denied access to the controller combat based environment, they are to still play with mouse and keyboard while others have the ability to opt out of facing mouse and keyboard users.

To your query: Why would anyone that prefers controller use a PC?

Necessity is a common one, many people do not have the luxury of having an entertainment only device or prefer the modular device or other functions it fulfills.

Consider things like:

1. Budget constrain, they cannot afford both?
2. They require a PC for other aspects of life, work, school, college, etc. Therefore they made the choice to prioritize those aspects in life, because gaming is a hobby not their job.
3. They don't have a choice, because they are a teen? Mom and dad refuse to get them a xbox and they have to do with the family PC.
4. They are able to upgrade it based on their own budget limitations one small part at a time, they use minimum requirements and will sacrifice all graphical settings in order to just scrape by... coming from someone that did this for 9 years before buying a new PC due to getting a decent fulltime job.
5. Unwilling to buy a console for a single game like Sea of Thieves, it is a crossplay title that promised all pirates are equal and no compromise crossplay... perfect for controller users as they are joined by xbox users on controller and will be treated in the same way.
6. The people with money that just want the best looking, smooth, game experience that a modular system can provide.

In the end whether you have a console or PC, it just is a computer. There are tons of reasons why people spend their money the way they do.

Why would you want a crossplay title that is supporting multiple platforms require a purchase of a specific one to get access to a preference option that has nothing to do with the platform.

Controller and mouse and keyboard are officially supported inputs for the game. The default has no real meaning, as we get the choice to switch.

Therefore controller only combat preference should not be locked behind the pay wall of requiring a xbox console.

@needsmokes said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

I really don't see what the fuss is all about the incoming Series X & S consoles. By the time they arrive, this game will be last gen, Rare and all the other teams will be heavily developing new games for the new generation.
Can't you tell already this game is now just a cash cow with minimal content being added because the current generation of Xboxes can't handle much more being added to it?
Sea of Thieves is filling the gap this year whilst we await the next generation, once that drops, its full steam ahead and this will be one of those games that you will always fondly remember from the old days, some will still play. But it won't be many, just as very few play 360 games anymore.
Have fun on the seas, before they dry up.

If you have so little faith in the Game as a service model and their what was it 5 to 10 year life span... maybe the game lasts multiple generations and shouldn't the design of the game be based on that.

Sea of Thieves will be around for the next generation xbox, with 100% guarentee and therefore if you want to bash PC for better hardware... those specs are on the xbox side and the game will be played on it. Just because you personally will move on should not leave a wasteland behind for new pirates.

@cotu42 said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

Sea of Thieves will be around for the next generation xbox, with 100% guarentee and therefore if you want to bash PC for better hardware... those specs are on the xbox side and the game will be played on it. Just because you personally will move on should not leave a wasteland behind for new pirates.

I'm trying to figure out why they spent so long arguing and campaigning for opt-out if they don't believe the game has a future.

@NeedSmokes, care to answer that? You've been quite a vocal presence on the forum in the pro opt-out camp, yet you didn't actually believe the game has a future. So were your posts only for the sole purpose of baiting and trolling? Because surely, if you don't believe this game has a future, it should make no difference to you personally whether opt-out exists or not right? I presume you've played since day one, so you've managed almost two years so far, what harm would another 11 months do before you give up?

Alternatively, if you truly believe the game is going to have a much smaller player base and if you were actually going to continue to play, surely you'd be pro crossplay? This would ensure there is enough players to keep multiple servers busy across both platforms.

@needsmokes said in [MEGA THREAD] Update 2.0.11 - Adventure Cross Play Opt Out Discussion & Feedback:

@withmyapologies

I love using Xbox live. I dislike cheating on Xbox live. That is why I wanted console vs console. No other reason.

OK, but when the game is dying and the player base shrinks (which is your claim, not mine), in your Xbox opt-out server, you'll have a higher chance of being merged more often with PC players due to the smaller user base. You may even come to rely on PC players to ensure there is anyone in your server.

This answer doesn't clear up any confusion surrounding your previous post.