Masts too sensitive to Keg damage.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    I can understand the masts going down because of cannon fire, but from the experiences I have been having over the last few weeks I find that if I deliver a single keg almost any place on the ship the target ship masts will fall.

    In conjunction with the damage that kegs cause I do feel this may need some tuning.

    Perhaps make the masts more resilient to the explosive damage and maybe reduce their resilience VS cannon fire.

    Why? Explosions in real life can cause a lot of damage, but typically only to a container of some kind; like ships hull.

    Where as a large pole like a tree is often stripped of some foliage, but the tree is typically standing unless a very large explosive is placed very very very close, and even then it's not a sure thing.

    Perhaps a damage sails mechanic instead of a broken mast mechanic for the kegs, but only if they're detonated on deck.. When the kegs go off under the ship or even at the front of the ship in the water it makes no sense to damage the masts at all; perhaps only if they're already damaged from cannon fire.

    Last on my list, what's up with all the fog.. Please ease up on the fog, it's rather out of hand now.. Cool feature but way too frequent and the distance is a little too hazy now.

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  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    You ever seen barrels of that size full of black powder explode? I have. You're lucky it's not splitting your ship in half!

    Barrels are an end-game mechanic. Don't let them get close! I learned that a single keg near the center mast of a galleon on deck will break all 3 masts, the wheel, and the capstan, as well as put 2 holes in each lower deck. It's even worse if you're on a brig or sloop.

    Welcome to the End Game.

  • Archangel Timmy
    Legend
    Insider

    @galactic-geek We had a keg go off last night in the water near the port ladder, took out everything. Didn't need to be on board at all to 100% cripple our ship, lol.

  • Glannigan
    Sailor

    I’m at the point now I don’t even put Kegs in the Crows nest. I keep them in the captains quarters behind the chair.

    You’ll get 2 “Big”
    Holes at the bottom rear of the ship, lose the rear Mast and damage the wheel If it goes off but it can’t be shot so it won’t go off!

    Strat these days is just grab the eye of reach and take some
    Shots at the crows nest.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @archangel-timmy said in Masts too sensitive to Keg damage.:

    @galactic-geek We had a keg go off last night in the water near the port ladder, took out everything. Didn't need to be on board at all to 100% cripple our ship, lol.

    Well, it is a big explosion, to be fair - even more reason to be aware of your surroundings.

    @Glannigan I still keep them up in the mast, because even though they can be sniped, if they explode, it only affects the mast (just for context, I solo sloop more often than not), which doesn't sink the ship. I can quickly raise the mast, place a single plank and I'll be good to go.

  • Archangel Timmy
    Legend
    Insider

    @galactic-geek said in Masts too sensitive to Keg damage.:

    @archangel-timmy said in Masts too sensitive to Keg damage.:

    @galactic-geek We had a keg go off last night in the water near the port ladder, took out everything. Didn't need to be on board at all to 100% cripple our ship, lol.

    Well, it is a big explosion, to be fair - even more reason to be aware of your surroundings.

    I know, and take full blame for it. I was just adding that it doesn't need to be perfectly placed near the center mast to cause complete destruction :)

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @galactic-geek

    I did not have time to respond earlier because I work some funky hours, but...

    I have seen some gnarly big explosions 2000 LBS TNT (rated), is no laughing matter, it's purely awesome force and a hell of a lot more than a keg of black powder both in weight and power per gram.

    The things that survive a 2000 LB TNT yield is actually surprising.

    No need to go off into a description of how no wooden ship would survive one of those kegs, but the point of the post was to point out that the "realism" has never been part of the game and the "shrapnel" like damage that the keg's do would not be the sort that in most situations break a mast at any distance beyond 0.5 meters.

    Any further and the inverse square laws just kill any repeatable chance of breaking the mast.

    In "Real life" if you detonated a keg on top a wooden ship deck the upper deck would collapse and the sides of the ship would tear open if they were close-ish to the keg... This is 100% dependent on the thickness of lumber used, construction method and a plethora of other things.

    There is also the reasonable possibility that the keg would explode and very little damage would take place due to the keg not being contained giving the expanding gasses more than enough room to expand with out causing major damage to the ship it self.

    This same ineffective keg could be set off under the ship and the damage would be catastrophic because the sea water is not compressible and because of this the energy is focused (mostly) on the hull of the ship because the water must be displaced to move providing the expanding gasses only one easy path to move; the ships hull is the weakest link in this situation and massive damage (way worse than Sea of thieves) would take place.

    Regardless of the inconsistency Game VS Reality, it's kinda absurd to crash the damn mast with a single keg.

    I am not the one having this problem, but I will continue to abuse this rather OP state of tune til Rare takes reasonable measure to "nerf" the effectiveness of Kegs VS the Mast at distances other than "Direct sabotage range" meaning less than 1 meter from the mast.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @swimplatypus7 If they nerfed it that much, it wouldn't even be worth using. It's fine as is. They're slow, easy to spot, and even easier to kill if your crew knows what they're doing.

    If they get close, than it's your fault for not being attentive.

    It's fine as is - it's meant to be messy.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @galactic-geek

    again I think this is a miscommunication.

    I was not saying to reduce the damage of the keg, but instead apply an inverse square law to the keg when it comes to kegs.

    Meaning the keg does not normal damage to the ship as it always has, and potentially even add some longer range shrapnel damage for lethality vs players at distances typically deemed safe.

    But at the same time the keg can be employed to kill a mast and deal ship damage, while not being ridiculous.

    This is not a problem for my crew, but for the crews that I keg..

    I would personally rather have the game better balanced to keep people playing; as it sits now one keg disables an entire ship and causes damage; IMO not a good state of tune for the sake of the game.

    I hope that clears things up.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @swimplatypus7 So you're saying that it should disable the ship but not damage it (or the reverse)?

    I am confused.

    As for people playing, they are - I see them every session. Even if pirates were leaving the SoT, this wouldn't be a reason why.

  • Agent Samuraii
    Castaway
    Insider

    .......

    Explosions, as far as I know, do more damage than cannonballs.

    And in SoT, like, the explosions no matter how big the ship is, can reach the top deck, and whatever hits whatever part of the mast counts towards its damage (if that makes sense?).

    It’s just game mechanics. I’m hoping there’s someone else more intelligent than me who can explain it better lol

  • Goedecke Michel
    Marauder

    @agent-samuraii sagte in Masts too sensitive to Keg damage.:

    It’s just game mechanics. I’m hoping there’s someone else more intelligent than me who can explain it better lol

    Good enough.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @agent-samuraii

    Yes its game mechanics, but the game design and tuning is kinda bad.

    Essentially they have expanded the gross and net potential of the kegs without any other reasonable balancing changes to compensate.

    Now not only do I get to put 4 holes in my enemies ship, but I disable their ship.

    Realistic to a degree, but is it good design? I don't think it is.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @galactic-geek

    That the kegs should work as they always did regarding hull damage

    A unique set of damage radius tables would be used regarding the masts.

    Example depending on how many paces you are from a mast determines the damage done.

    If your keg is 1 pace from mast = full damage 4 points damage.

    2 paces = 2 points damage

    3 paces 1 point damage

    4 paces or more no damage.

    Same concept can be applied to the wheel and capstan.

    This keeps the game interesting while also keeping it reasonably balanced.

  • Agent Samuraii
    Castaway
    Insider

    @swimplatypus7

    I think it’s just fine. I’d rather be able to disable a galleon than have to face it.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @swimplatypus7 I'm fairly certain that the damage tables you are describing are already a thing, just not as narrow as yours are. It's a massive explosion - it should feel like one. Besides, on a galleon, if placed dead center next to the center or main-mast, it only puts 2 holes in the bottom deck to start the sinking process (sure, it puts 2 holes in the mid-deck, and destroys everything else, but none of that will actually sink the ship). Any one person should be able to handle 2 minor holes in about 10 seconds, and if his crewmates can't buy him that amount of time, then they probably deserve to sink.

  • vikeyev
    Insider

    Personally I'd prefer the role of Kegs in PVP be reduced quite significantly and more interesting cannon ammo be added to the game. So in the case of OP's complaint, instead of just jumping aboard and blowing their mast, use chain shot or bar shot to damage the enemy masts. This way, sailing skill and aim would play a significant role in doing this.

    Or go really crazy and allow us to fit fire arrow cannons, to set enemy ships alight. It'd be more interesting than the current meta of ram ship, jump aboard, explode. Or jump in water with keg, swim under their ship and explode.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @vikeyev ram ship, jump aboard, explode is not a very effective tactic against a skilled crew, because a skilled crew would never let you get close enough to do so. They would blast you from a distance to soften you up and/or distract you, and then start hitting you with relevant CCBs (anchor ball, etc.) as they circle behind you where your own cannons can't return fire. Once your ship is sunk they'll pick you off 1 by 1 while you're in the water.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @galactic-geek

    I don't even bother any more; the sharks do a fine job for me.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @swimplatypus7 Sharks save bullets but are not quick - if you want their treasure, you'll dispatch them quickly.

  • vikeyev
    Insider

    @galactic-geek

    And yet the vast majority of the time, what you describe doesn't happen. Most people on the seas don't do this and most players utilise kegs to some degree to win a match (including galleys kegging docked sloops for some reason). It's not hard to deal with being blasted by cannons.

    My friends and I always hunt for PVP it's what we spend most of our time doing now (since the PVE is so repetitive and boring) and weirdly enough in Arena fighting others isn't nearly as effective for winning so Adventure is where the fun is to be had. Plus it's quite thrilling to pull off a big heist.

    The vast majority of the time, we wipe someone with barrels, the few times we don't can be quite interesting battles (although I'd argue sailing tactics are the larger contributor to victory). Combat, like everything else in this game, doesn't have all that much variation to it. Why waste cannonballs (or even time) when a keg or two will do the same job?

    If kegging doesn't work against a "skilled crew" than almost no one in this game is skilled.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @vikeyev Exactly. Most aren't skilled - because they're using GPBs in an attempt to win. In doing so, they leave their ship a man down, and that's a weakness, not a strength (it's the high-risk, high-reward option). Players and their cohesive skill is what's really the deciding factor.

  • Xultanis Dragon
    Sailor

    @SwimPlatypus7

    I get where you are coming from, its annoying but not all mechanics that are annoying should be "fixed" or "removed".

    I think the Keg is in a happy place right now. Someone being chased can use a keg to damage a chasing ships mast to help get away. Getting a Keg onto a ship can help cripple it while you get your ship into range.

    Before the keg was honestly a joke if the crew was a good crew. My crew and I pretty much didn't care.

    "Hey someones on the ladder with the keg. I'll suicide it" - and we repair and move on.

    "Hey someone kegged us. I got repairs." - Honestly it was a pure joke against crews that were solid.

    If the crew was a good crew, nothing short of getting their anchor would slow them down from catching you and if it was a good crew, you weren't climbing that ladder.

    This gives someone balance to the game. Crews have to watch out and pay attention and have to work harder against being kegged.

    Its annoying for sure but I think it good where its at.

  • vikeyev
    Insider

    @galactic-geek
    But that's true of almost any game in existence, balanced or not. The largest deciding factor, even in games with P2W mechanics is the players/team themselves. That doesn't mean you shouldn't change other aspects.

    Repetition and stale game play are the biggest issues with SoT and huge changes aren't necessarily needed. When the CZ-75 auto pistol was originally introduced to CSGO they quickly realised it had to be altered because it became over 90% of first round picks for quite a number of weeks.
    As a result of this, gameplay begins to get stale and play out in very similar ways. Adding new weapons etc can be great (when you take the time to balance them) and if something is over represented it can be good to add a few tweaks here and there to stop things from getting stale.

    Sometimes you don't even need to actually change anything permanently. For example the M4A4 has always been the counter terrorist staple in CSGO. But by reducing the price of the AUG for just a couple weeks, people starting trying it out and now it is quickly taking over in popularity.

    Sometimes the game just needs a small tweak to get people to try out new things (maybe they should try to incentivise PVE players to PVP in this game).

    Although considering the PVE portion of this game, getting non-repetitive content would be like winning the lottery.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @vikeyev The GPB is the least repetitive weapon in this game's arsenal. You can:

    • detonate it
    • defuse it
    • slash it
    • stab it
    • shoot it
    • carry it
    • float it
    • drop it
  • Crimsonraziel
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek I never realized how not repetitive snake baskets are.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crimsonraziel Snakes - the weapon you can leave alone to guard your loot, ladders, or chokepoints.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @xultanis-dragon

    Thank you for responding in a constructive and well thought out way.

    Your experiences appear to match mine in a way. I never felt the kegs were useless like that though, they were more of a tactical weapon before.

    Example if some one was chasing my ship and I had a ton of loot that I wanted to get to port we would send 2 kegs and each of us would grab a ladder and light the keg while going up the side.

    Did not matter if they detonated one soon or not, 8 holes in a ship is very difficult to deal with especially if you're down 2 players; that was enough to put most people out of the chase.

    But that's how we dealt with it, and it still works great; only difference is now not only do we deal a tremendous amount of damage but also cripple their ship..

    While handy for me it's hardly interesting or challenging now to ward off would be attackers.

    It's even easier now to be on the offensive because of the power factor the kegs provide; and that's where I think they're a bit over tuned.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @galactic-geek said in Masts too sensitive to Keg damage.:

    @vikeyev The GPB is the least repetitive weapon in this game's arsenal. You can:

    • detonate it
    • defuse it
    • slash it
    • stab it
    • shoot it
    • carry it
    • float it
    • drop it

    You forgot:

    • Chain it
    • Harpoon it.
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