Open World PvP Design – Confusion

reads like a really long post of "please dont steal my stuff". all players and their items are fair game. pvp is fun. it isn't about goals or purposefully preventing others from completing things for most of us who pvp on adventure mode the goal is just to have fun.

@xixaxap you forgot the fact that this game is based on stealing loot as all the PvE is repeatable..

@captain-coel said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

reads like a really long post of "please dont steal my stuff". all players and their items are fair game. pvp is fun. it isn't about goals or purposefully preventing others from completing things for most of us who pvp on adventure mode the goal is just to have fun.

Some people think it's fun to yell obscenities at full volume into their mic. Sometimes, what's fun isn't the most important thing to consider.

@lysergicaa said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap you forgot the fact that this game is based on stealing loot as all the PvE is repeatable..

I didn't forget that. A good deal of the post is about that. I think we disagree on what it means.

@xixaxap I'm not playing this game so people on other boats can have fun. I'm playing so me and my crew can have fun. we enjoy pvp and pve. We sink boats that are near by or at islands we plan to go to. We will steal loot, supplies, quest items, and anything else. We play to have fun for ourselves.

Trying to argue that we should consider the other player is ludicrous. They are not on my crew or my friends.

I'm not confused by this game, sounds like you might be

@captain-coel said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

Trying to argue that we should consider the other player is ludicrous. They are not on my crew or my friends.

This is where you're wrong. Considering other people is always the right thing to do. In a game or out. Always.

@xixaxap I thought about that statement as I typed it and realized I mistyped typed. Considering other people to be anything but targets is ludicrous. In a shared world PvPvE environment they are as much an enemy as a skeleton ship. And again I will reiterate, they are not my crew they are not my friends.

@xixaxap if the game allows me to steal a ship, sink the ship, steal the treasure, kill the pirate and it provides me with in return with safety, gold, stock and/or progress.. based on the opportunity that the other crew provides me with and how they respond to my presence, I will do just that, if given the chance. Just as likely as that I will be friendly and help them out... I love variety and opportunities.

In games we should consider others and not make the loss more devastating than required. No need to be toxic. However it isn't my responsibility to ensure that others can do what they set out to do at the expense of my fun, progress, safety, etc. My goal isn't to ruin your fun, it is to have the best time myself.

Losing isn't fun, I have many experiences of sinking, losing and being out played. It is a part of games. After which I adapted my own playstyle to prevent those situations from happening again. The tools are in the game and it is your own responsibility to make your style work. Whether it is passive, ruthless, adventurous, sneaky or unpredictable I am not here to tell you what type of pirate you should be... however I am gonna be the pirate I want to be and I will consider you by not being obnoxious about beating, stealing and sinking you when I choose that is the best course of action for my crew.

This is a shared world and our goals might not align, it is up to you to achieve yours and it is up to me to achieve mine. We have the same tools to make sure that happens, let the best pirate win.

@captain-coel said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap I thought about that statement as I typed it and realized I mistyped typed. Considering other people to be anything but targets is ludicrous. In a shared world PvPvE environment they are as much an enemy as a skeleton ship. And again I will reiterate, they are not my crew they are not my friends.

All good. If it's ludicrous, how is it of the dozen+ hours I've spent playing, I've not had to take this approach? They're also not as much an enemy as skeleton ships. Skeleton ships won't ally with you. They won't help you complete goals. They won't fight a Kraken or Meg with you. They aren't human. And because they're not human, no one camps skeleton spawn points. No one just goes out of their way to interrupt an NPC galleon's route when sailing away unless they really believe it's a gain of some kind.

Being considerate/inconsiderate isn't something someone should reserve for friends and crew.

I read the whole story and I am impressed by your words, @xixaxap. I do agree that this game is no place for foul-mouthed bigotry, whoever...

@xixaxap said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

We don’t have to be friends in Sea of Thieves. We don’t even have to engage peacefully with one another. But we can, in fact, behave poorly in Sea of Thieves.

• Stealing Tall Tales quest items is one example.
• Hunting down new players is another.
• Camping Tall Tales quest locations is another.
• Consistently attacking the same player who is clearly attempting to avoid engagement is another.

I don't believe these points are examples of bad behaviour. I think bad behaviour is the result of what usually comes after such an act like swearing, name calling, racial slurs and even threats.
Mind you that this type of communications comes from both sides, the attacker(s) and the one(s) attacked.

@cotu42 said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap if the game allows me to steal a ship, sink the ship, steal the treasure, kill the pirate and it provides me with in return with safety, gold, stock and/or progress.. based on the opportunity that the other crew provides me with and how they respond to my presence, I will do just that, if given the chance. Just as likely as that I will be friendly and help them out... I love variety and opportunities. ....

This is a shared world and our goals might not align, it is up to you to achieve yours and it is up to me to achieve mine. We have the same tools to make sure that happens, let the best pirate win.

And yet, for reasons other than game design, I cannot bring myself to do some of the above to someone. Open World, with a goal focus, does not mean we can assume that everyone is out there accepting the same code of behavior as the rest. As unfair as you may feel this is, it means how you behave with others does actually matter. Like going to a party where the fliers say "anything goes." There is a whole variety of behavior shy of illegal which would still be way over the line and unacceptable.

If my goal was the say the most offensive thing on the mic today, and your goal was to not have to keep the voice chat muted 100% of the time, we're not equally in the right pursuing our goals. "They gave us voice chat, and it's a pirate game with adults. Grow a thick skin. I'll do it my way, you do it yours." is meaningless.

There is nothing to gain by robbing someone of a tall tale quest item. There are no goals to pursue there other than "I like it when someone else is frustrated." There are no circumstances in which that feeling of pleasure is a good thing. The worst thing about winning in structured competition should be the disappointment felt by the opposing team. It's why we celebrate rituals like shaking hands at the end and leaders offering a moment of consolation. Take the structure out and that impact on someone else isn't even necessary... it has to become a goal of its own.

@xixaxap dude a dozen+ hours. is that even enough time to really learn this game at all? I've been playing the way I play for over 1000. it has served me well. it has served my crew well. and yes I got out of way to interrupt an npc galleys route and funny fact they do in fact shoot at the meg.

to make these claims after what is honestly an extremely limited amount of experience just makes it more funny to me.

Hope to see you on the seas.

@xixaxap said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

To make the conversation easier, a few common definitions we can share.

• “Open World” – Tasks are non-linear and are not constrained by time. There is no countdown clock for example, after which the game session closes. Tasks are also self-directed.

A final reiteration: Other pirates, in Adventure mode, are not the focus. They are the subordinate feature.

So by your logic tasks in this game are self-directed; but when said self-directed task/focus includes sinking someones ship to take their loot, then the player directing that task is just confused?

PVP is an intended feature in this game. If people want to sink other ships to steal loot, or just for the challenge/thrill of doing so (since there is no way to tell if the ship on the horizon has any loot), then they are playing the game as intended.

You seem to think that most people sinking other players ships only do so to ruin their experience. 99% of the time this is not the case, most of the time PVP players just want to do PVP in an open world (again, an intended feature of the game), and get some loot at the same time. As there is currently no way to tell if someone has loot on their ship without attempting to get close and board (this is usually met with the crew trying to kill you the second they see you), why should these players put themselves at a disadvantage like this?

PVP means "player vs player", not "handicapped player vs non-handicapped player". There is no way to tell what someone you are attacking has on board, or what they are doing without purposefully putting yourself at a disadvantage. If the players being attacked want to try and be friendly instead of attacking back, that is THEIR OWN DECISION to be put at a DISADVANTAGE; and if they choose to take that RISK, then it is their own fault if they sink.

I personally PVP a lot, and since I can't reliably tell what loot a ship has, I attack any ship I find. If they don't have any loot I can use (like tall tale loot), then I try to leave them. But by the time I know what they have, they are already trying to sink me and therefore engaging in PVP. I then for the rest of the day (regardless of who won the fight) am spammed with messages like "Why would you attack a ship with no loot" or "Why you gotta greif", sometimes even death threats.

If you ask me, PVE only players are the most toxic, sore losers in the game, and I usually am forced to block at least 2 of them on a daily basis.

At the end of the day, the best part of an open world online game is that you can play whatever way you "self-direct" yourself. And trying to tell people that their way of playing is "wrong" or that they are just "confused" about how the game is "supposed to be played", is just plain condescending and manipulative at best.

@captain-coel said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap dude a dozen+ hours. is that even enough time to really learn this game at all? I've been playing the way I play for over 1000. it has served me well. it has served my crew well. and yes I got out of way to interrupt an npc galleys route and funny fact they do in fact shoot at the meg.

to make these claims after what is honestly an extremely limited amount of experience just makes it more funny to me.

Hope to see you on the seas.

It's not, but that's part of the actual question. What am I missing after 12+ hours I'll find out later that makes stealing a Tall Tales quest item worthwhile?

@xixaxap said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@captain-coel said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap dude a dozen+ hours. is that even enough time to really learn this game at all? I've been playing the way I play for over 1000. it has served me well. it has served my crew well. and yes I got out of way to interrupt an npc galleys route and funny fact they do in fact shoot at the meg.

to make these claims after what is honestly an extremely limited amount of experience just makes it more funny to me.

Hope to see you on the seas.

It's not, but that's part of the actual question. What am I missing after 12+ hours I'll find out later that makes stealing a Tall Tales quest item worthwhile?

that pvp is fun. that people defending their loot makes it more fun. they fight harder with out just scuttling and moving on

@xixaxap your mic and language abuse example is actually against the rules and terms and is a valid reason for a report.

It isn't the same as sinking a ship, stealing treasure or killing a pirate.

You don't have to be a pirate that does any of these things, however it is up to everyone to decide what type of pirate they are and to adapt, play and use the tools available to them to achieve their own goals and playstyles.

I solo a lot and have ran dozens of Athenas by myself, while not selling a single bit till the end. In those situations I am passive, shy and not in the mood to PvP, steal or plunder as my goal is progression, gold and PvE. I have to keep myself safe and manage to do so by being alert and skittish about any other ship on the horizon.

Those that say... but the others must adapt to me are those unwilling to reflect on themselves. Toxic behavior is not ok and just demeaning people for no other reason is not cool. However: hunting pirates, stealing loot, claiming an island as your own, joy riding other ships and all those fun ingame options is perfectly acceptable. Whether your pirate engages in these activities is up to you... my pirate is a villain, a saint, a scared coward or sneaky ninja based on the situation, the crew, the goals of the session and all that. I for one am not a alliance betrayer, it isn't my style... though I don't judge those that do.

Oi, from the first few paragraphs, it's clear you've completely missed the point of this game.

The mystery of the other player, the potential reward of sinking the unknown, friend or foe, weak progression, cosmetic only upgrades, etc... These are all in place to encourage PvP.

Everything about the progression and reward systems within this game are meant to make PvP desirable. And it works.

Without PvP, it's not Sea of Thieves.

Without the world being made of those looking to hunt gold vs those looking to hunt you down, it's not Sea of Thieves.

Without risk, the reward loses meaning, and defeats the purpose Sea of Thieves.

You don't want to play Sea of Thieves. You're looking for another game.

@captain-coel said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

that pvp is fun. that people defending their loot makes it more fun. they fight harder with out just scuttling and moving on

"They struggle so much more when it's really frustrating for them on a quest. But I like it more than the 24/7 PvP available in Arena for reasons."

I think we can stop pretending PvP and fighting are what you really enjoy.

@cotu42 said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap your mic and language abuse example is actually against the rules and terms and is a valid reason for a report.> It isn't the same as sinking a ship, stealing treasure or killing a pirate.

Agreed, though the only difference between the mic example and extreme forms of the latter three is that the latter three do not have rules in place to reinforce that they are not acceptable. Perhaps by design. I suppose the larger point is... that's bad design, because combining goal focused play and lack of rules on acceptable social behavior is a festering pool of player resentment. People take it as license for actual toxic behavior and that kind of behavior shrinks the game.

I solo a lot and have ran dozens of Athenas by myself, while not selling a single bit till the end. In those situations I am passive, shy and not in the mood to PvP, steal or plunder as my goal is progression, gold and PvE. I have to keep myself safe and manage to do so by being alert and skittish about any other ship on the horizon.

Would you be equally passive if you weren't solo? If not, isn't the only difference the power balance? If I were given an Aegis cruiser and mech, I still wouldn't treat other people as victims there to provide gains at their expense. If I want combat, Arena exists. If I want progression/gains, isn't doing the things that lead to sometimes full ships more profitable than taking a gamble and incidentally knocking someone out of their tall tale quest progress?

Those that say... but the others must adapt to me are those unwilling to reflect on themselves. Toxic behavior is not ok and just demeaning people for no other reason is not cool. However: hunting pirates, stealing loot, claiming an island as your own, joy riding other ships and all those fun ingame options is perfectly acceptable. Whether your pirate engages in these activities is up to you... my pirate is a villain, a saint, a scared coward or sneaky ninja based on the situation, the crew, the goals of the session and all that. I for one am not a alliance betrayer, it isn't my style... though I don't judge those that do.

I've reflected. I've even tried to embrace the openness to different playstyles. Here is where I always get stuck: Before I chase down some ship and sink it, I imagine it's another father and daughter heading to the last of three stages they've been working on together for the last hour. I just can't bring myself to feel that's right. It's possible. I could tell the father to "get over it, it's how the game is made", but that's just telling them they shouldn't be playing at all, and that's such strange advice.

The game does not require that we behave that way with one another. I can't even picture how it would be beneficial over other activities in terms of gold or progress. You'd have to get quite lucky to come across ships that make aggression as profitable as other activities on an hourly basis. Just not convinced the game's design actually promotes behavior that, to me, naturally raises questions of guilt.

@xixaxap it is if it is part of the game design. Though we must never forget that the others are pirates.. player, so hunting the same crew is not cool for instance.

My advise is not stop playing, it is to start adapting your own play and consider the fact that they play differently. That they are part of the game and its challenges. Not everything will go to plan.

@corvum-mortis said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

The mystery of the other player, the potential reward of sinking the unknown, friend or foe, weak progression, cosmetic only upgrades, etc... These are all in place to encourage PvP.

Quite possible I missed the point. Sounds like a common miss, but hey, maybe they had a vision, knowing that vision was very niche, and landed it perfectly and it's folks like me who are out of step.

Everything about the progression and reward systems within this game are meant to make PvP desirable. And it works.

Well... that's not quite accurate. It's made all social contact undesirable because the lack of restraint is so common. When I log in with my daughter, we have no desire whatsoever to be near anyone for any reason, but especially for "PvP". I'd team up with other ships all day long with her if it were safe. PvP is the part of Adventure mode I like least.

Without PvP, it's not Sea of Thieves.

Disagree. It's way bigger than one avoidable feature. And it is avoidable. The closest I've come to combat in the last several days was one ship pursuing my daughter and I relentlessly four minutes after logging in (was sailing to Plunder Outpost to start the second Tall Tale). When I realized just sailing away wasn't going to work, we left the game. Started new. Didn't see another person for the next 1.5 hours.

Without risk, the reward loses meaning, and defeats the purpose Sea of Thieves. You don't want to play Sea of Thieves. You're looking for another game.

I'm not sure that's the slogan Rare would consider ideal. "Stop playing our games. We know you were having a blast with family, but this game isn't for you."

@cotu42 said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap it is if it is part of the game design. Though we must never forget that the others are pirates.. player, so hunting the same crew is not cool for instance.

My advise is not stop playing, it is to start adapting your own play and consider the fact that they play differently. That they are part of the game and its challenges. Not everything will go to plan.

Oh, we have. We just avoid all social interaction and steer away from ships. We sell anything at all of value at every opportunity. We leave games where we start and see a ship within the first few minutes. We fly plain flags and sails instead of trying to "look cool", as some small sign we're not valuable enough to attack and we're not going to attack you. She's seven. She thinks fishing is one of the two best things about the game, the first being finding pirate treasure.

@xixaxap this game is rated for Teens due to the open world PvP environment.

All cool that you play with a younger child, however do realize that they are participants in a game made for older players and a multiplayer where you have to defend yourself against others. You cannot request them to play the game differently by default. If you would use the horn in my presence and stated you are playing with your kid, I would back down, alliance you, give you loot and state to sail to me if you need help. Sadly, not everyone will do that as you are also dealing with teens and people you don't know. More compassion for younger and newer gamers is a great thing to strive for and promote. Just don't think that our main actions should consider these without further information as a standard.

I understand and can emphasize with your predicament. It might just be a bit to challenging for her at her age to really play along and therefore makes it more demanding on you to accomplish a nice session where she can play on her level and yes will most likely limit you in some ways as well. You can try and find a discord community that setup alliance servers, which would be perfect for your situation.

@xixaxap you act like you're entitled to the game being tailored to your play style? By that logic, every game should conform to a family friendly model and no game should exclude anyone, at the cost of that games integrity.

Rare had said multiple times that "friend or foe" is a major mechanic of this game. To remove it would be to take away the games base foundation.

I agree completely that PvP is 100% avoidable... If you're paying attention. But that constant player threat is part of the ongoing fight for survival. You leaving the game is just accepting your loss. That's healthy gameplay.

@corvum-mortis said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap you act like you're entitled to the game being tailored to your play style? By that logic, every game should conform to a family friendly model and no game should exclude anyone, at the cost of that games integrity.

Nothing like that was said.

• I didn't suggest anyone has to conform to my playstyle. I just pointed out that it's possible for someone to behave poorly in a game, even when that game enables the malignant behavior, and that this game in Adventure mode is actually neutral in its encouragement of that kind of behavior.
• Structured PvP or competitor focused games aren't always family friendly and don't need to be. You know what they are going in
• This game intentionally focused on accessibility to younger players than was necessary. The writing, art style, animations, special effects... even the core design of enemies etc. I feel pretty good about selecting this as a good game for her and I to play together, especially with all voice comms muted as they are.

Really - My super short summary is, this game gives you options, and when presented with options, the one where you treat other people with kindness and consideration is still always the right option. There is never any reason to take joy from the frustration of others.

@xixaxap
"you treat other people with kindness and consideration is still always the right option. There is never any reason to take joy from the frustration of others."

this is why this game isn't for you. It's not supposed to be a casual sailing game. The entire point is cut throat pirates who steal, lie, sabotage and kill.

We're PIRATES... why do you think Rare's slogan IS Be More Pirate?? How does that translate to "be friendly to your fellow players and only engage in non aggressive activities"?

This just isn't meant to be the game you want it to be.

@entspeak said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:

@xixaxap said in Open World PvP Design – Confusion:
Sinking a ship, stealing treasure, or killing a pirate are not acceptable? In this game? I have no idea what you are even on about here. Yes, these things are in there by design... it is, in fact, a core aspect of the game. You may not like that, but that is what it is. And, playing this game that is not rated for 7 year olds, and then complaining that it isn't fun for a 7 year old to play? Yeah, there's a massive disconnect on your part there.

It is fun for her, actually. We've had a really good time playing. She's on Tall Tale 2. She learned how to deal with sharks and skeletons, and nearly fell over laughing when we were attacked by a Kraken. I'm not the one losing the point here.

Super clear: Even when a game allows it or encourages it, you can behave poorly when interacting with other people. What rules the game enforces or fails to enforce doesn't separate you from being responsible for your behavior. There is a flaw in someone's character if they get joy from the frustration of someone else, and a flaw if the only reason they take part in an activity is to find and experience that particular joy. It doesn't matter what the game's rules are. It just so happens here, in Adventure mode, such joys are unnecessary and even counter productive.

This has nothing to do with "woe is me." We're getting by fine, and it's another great opportunity to explain to her why she's not going to be allowed to interact with the internet unmonitored for many, many years. People, when given the mask of anonymity, too often become the very worst version of themselves.