Roll up them ladders!

  • SpazTheMax
    Marauder

    In Sea of Thieves PVP, there is great potential for some awesome ship battles. Firing cannons feels great, the sound design of the blast and the loading are incredibly satisfying.

    The revisions to hole damage and the addition of mast damage will make ship battles even more exciting.

    Yet, it seems the game's PVP is focused largely on simply boarding your opponent's ship and fighting them hand-to-hand, often done by sailing in your enemy's path and jumping into the water to grab their ship's ladder. Or fire a player into the water nearby, and do the same.

    What if you could roll up your ladders when you didn't want to use them?

    In this way, Ship-to-Ship battles might be more encouraged, to enjoy the use of the cannons and experience the advanced damage mechanics being brought in with the Anniversary update.

    Sure, players might fire themselves onto the opponents ships with the cannons directly, but I think that the skill to make that shot and the cost of one fewer crewmate on your ship is a pretty good requirement for the advantage that a crewmate on the enemy's ship can bring, what with dropping the anchor and distracting the crew from the ship battle.

    And there would always be the most mundane option of simply sailing close enough to jump aboard the enemy's vessel, but that would require a level of risk and maneuvering that I also think justifies the possible advantage.

    If a crewmate fell off of their boat without dropping the ladders first, it could be troublesome to get back on, especially if other crewmates griefed them by not dropping the ladder for them. Perhaps this would be a trigger to spawn a mermaid nearby, and they could respawn on the ship that way. That way, if you want to bring loot on the ship, you'd need to keep your ladders down and your ship more vulnerable. If a griefer went so far as to roll up the ladder every time you dropped it and never drop it for you to bring up loot, well, I'd say that'd be a case for the brig, not unlike other currently-available methods of griefing your crew like sinking your own ship with gunpowder barrels.

    If there's anyone who can point out a flaw with this proposed feature, I'd love to hear it. I've covered all I can think of, but if there is a good reason that this feature shouldn't exist I'd like to know.

    As it stands, I think ship-to-ship combat is far too brief compared to the amount of person-to-person combat there is, and this could be a way to fix that.

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  • doctorfork
    Master

    I really like this idea. I think getting on board an enemy ship is going to happen a lot with the addition of the speargun, so the shipside ladders should be able to be withdrawn. But maybe it shouldn't be impossible to get onto an opponent's ship from the water-just more difficult(because sneaking onto a docked boat is always fun). I'd say a good compromise would be some sort of climbing hook a pirate can use to latch onto the hull and slowly(and loudly) work their way up the side.

  • Arsigi
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Interesting idea. I can see some pros, and some cons.

    I would suggest that this only be able to be done once the ship is underway, with some sort of timed mechanic similar to the capstan or raising sails. When the ship stops, either from an anchor ball, collision, or just at an outpost, the ladders should automatically deploy, and have to be manually brought up again the next time you set sail.

    It could also open up the possibility of a new cursed cannonball - the Ladderball! Drops the ladders and keeps them down for a certain time.

  • SpazTheMax
    Marauder

    @doctorfork @Arsigi

    I love the climbing hook idea. That would also solve the problem of players falling off their ship and not being able to climb back on if they can reach it. I think it'd be cool if players on other crews had the ability to throw off a climbing hook too, perhaps with a short action time required to do so, like how long it takes to load a cannon. It'd add to the factors in a ship battle for sure!

    Im less enthused about the ladders auto-deploying when the ship stops for any reason, especially if we add climbing hooks to this idea.

    The ladder ball is a great idea though and an one more way to add depth to battle strategy.

  • Ridley2708

    Ship battles are boring.
    Bye.

  • Arsigi
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Ship hooks made me think of this. So, I just had to:

    alt text

    :P

  • bonko40
    Insider

    I feel like if you fall off your ship with the ladders up that it should be kind of a game (or battle) ending mistake. You shouldn’t be able to instantly get a mermaid if your next to your boat with the ladders up. If your boat gets far away for a regular mermaid that would make sense.

    The hook thing is cool, but would just make it easier to board imo. Players would be able to board from any part of the boat instead of only two places. And if you hear them climbing, you have to search the whole perimeter of the boat to find them.

    You can already hear the sound when someone grabs your ladder, and you know they’re gonna be in one of two places.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    This idea has been discussed at length in the past and has been found to be an overall bad idea. Feel free to do a forum search for details.

  • Goedecke Michel
    Marauder

    I still like this idea.

  • ViperishEmu2992
    Marauder

    Totally agree with this concept. Boarding should be less important than Cannoning and Sailing in deciding the outcome of naval battles.

    As things stand it is nearly impossible to sink a ship (with a semi-competent crew) without boarding.

    And with the hand-to-hand being so below average in this game the focus should be on the Ship based skills that set this game apart from most of the competition.

    There should still be boarding. But it should require more skill.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @viperishemu2992

    As things stand it is nearly impossible to sink a ship (with a semi-competent crew) without boarding.

    I assure you - it's not. Simply outsail the other ship by keeping behind them, but still at an angle to shoot their sides as they turn. This requires good sail management. Keep at a good distance and speed to dissuade borders. The use of cursed cannonballs strategically is also a huge game changer if you have them. Furthermore, come April 30th along with the Anniversary Update, the expanded ship damage will make things far more fun, frustrating, and interesting overall.

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    @galactic-geek
    With all due respect, I don't agree with you. Saying things like, "Simply outsail" them its the equivalent of saying just be better. That is something easier said then actually done. Your relying on having found the perfect amount and type of Cursed Cannonball, when finding them is completely random endeavor. Relying on the fact that every shot perfectly lands with perfect accuracy, with the limited amount you have. Players can adapt, they can fire back with their own Cursed shots simply negating your own. They can disengage rather then keep fighting. They can run to fight another day. They are counter boarding to your boarding.

    Sinking players with cannonfire alone relies on all the dominoes falling perfectly in a row. The problem is players aren't dominoes, and they won't just let things perfectly fall. If you are facing someone of equal level those dominoes will rarely line up.

    Ship Damage 2.0 will change things, but even with testing, we won't know the true effects til its live.

  • Arsigi
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @nabberwar @galactic-geek

    You both have good points. Another facet that is really going to come into play after the update are the new harpoons - those are going to change the dynamics of ship battles considerably.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @nabberwar All the more reason to ensure things go favorably. Stock up on (lots of) supplies 1st (an outpost, a fort, some floating barrels, and a shipwreck should get you plenty of CCBs), hit them with a surprise attack while they're stopped at an island and less able to escape quickly, kill their cannoneers if they open fire, etc.

    No crew is equal. Assuming that's even a thing is a logical fallacy.

    With knowledge comes power, and effectively using that power brings victory in short order. Victory (or at least a good, close fight) ensures fun is had for the crew. Don't sweat the things you can't control - if they get away or sink you, then learn from the experience:

    • what went wrong?
    • how can I fix it?
    • what did they do that worked?
  • BumBumBac
    Castaway

    My personal, emotional bias says YES, being able to roll up the ladders would be great

    But my conscience disagrees it's already hard enough to board ships with competent crews protecting the ladders

    For the sake of balance I gotta agree with my conscience instead of my emotions.

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    @galactic-geek

    All the more reason to ensure things go favorably. Stock up on (lots of) supplies 1st (an outpost, a fort, some floating barrels, and a shipwreck should get you plenty of CCBs), hit them with a surprise attack while they're stopped at an island and less able to escape quickly, kill their cannoneers if they open fire, etc.

    To reiterate though, your relying on a system that is random. That isn't reliable and somewhat luck based. You could find 30 CC and not a single one is an anchorball, ballastball, Sleeper or Jigball. If we are talking about reliable methods to sink people, you in general don't rely on luck and randomness.

    You also bring up surprise attacks, and with respect, if you are able to surprise a crew with cannonfire, they aren't a well coordinated crew. The sea is vast as is the visual range of the player. Player ships just don't appear out of nowhere. If we use uncordinated crews as the standard of all crews, then sure, ships can sink with cannonfire alone. However, by extension they can sink to pretty much any another mediocre strategy players can deploy. Game balance should never be balanced around the games lowest tier of play.

    No crew is equal. Assuming that's even a thing is a logical fallacy.

    Contextually speaking I'm not using equal in the way you describe. Players can have relative similar skill sets or be at a tier of play where certain strategies no longer work on them. Players can be at a level to understand exactly what you are going to attempt, and they will react as needed. Like one of the examples you said before, If I know you will attempt to sweep my cannoneers, I'm going to try and sweep yours first.

    With knowledge comes power, and effectively using that power brings victory in short order. Victory (or at least a good, close fight) ensures fun is had for the crew. Don't sweat the things you can't control - if they get away or sink you, then learn from the experience:

    what went wrong?

    how can I fix it?

    what did they do that worked?

    I agree whole heartily of looking back to see where we went wrong as well as losing with dignity. A fight for us win or lose is still fun, but I disagree with your comment on bringing victories in short order. When you face crews of similar skill as you, short victories become rarer and rarer. If you know tricks to cause a fight to end quickly, its not a far off conclusion that they know them as well.

    That little example example crew you said at the beginning, was never at your level to begin with.

  • Foxdodge
    Champion
    Insider
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @spazthemax The idea of retractable ship ladders takes away more from the overall experience than it adds. Epic ship battles are coming with The Arena.

  • SpazTheMax
    Marauder

    @foxdodge

    What is different in Arena to prevent ship battles from simply being boarding battles?

  • Foxdodge
    Champion
    Insider
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @spazthemax I recommend watching this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6pXh3G4yM

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @galactic-geek said in Roll up them ladders!:

    This idea has been discussed at length in the past and has been found to be an overall bad idea. Feel free to do a forum search for details.

    Who found that lol? Its never been tested and instead of just saying empty words why not quote some of these things that have apparently been found out lol... because i was there for a lot of those old posts and i never saw them.

    With new ship damage that was unkown at those times this is a completely new discussion to have anyways.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @foxdodge said in Roll up them ladders!:

    @spazthemax The idea of retractable ship ladders takes away more from the overall experience than it adds. Epic ship battles are coming with The Arena.

    Could you explain or list any of these things that are taken away from the experience, unless you think the tired ladder guarding baording meta of “ship combat” is worth defending the loss of, even when it is replaced with boarding through harpoons and mast damage?

    I have never seen a good point in defense of keeping ladders unraisable and acting as if the forum has decided this without any supporting points is not only untrue but is just silly. I was there for these discussions and there are a lot more pros than cons from what i can see.

  • Kenji Salk
    Legend
    Moderator
    Global Moderator

    @roosterwacker69 This post is both disrespectful and baiting. Please keep to the forum rules better in the future. This is a warning.

  • NeburDZerep
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I dunno what everyone else has said since thats a huge TL;DR, but I remember thing being talked about back in the day. It definitely has mixed feelings around it. I like the idea though, definitely deters people from simply cannoning onto your ship.

  • SpazTheMax
    Marauder

    @foxdodge

    It's rather rude to just link an hour-long video instead of bothering to discuss a topic with your own words.

    That may be all well and good for the arena, but it doesn't change the fact that sea battles in the normal mode are just boarding fights.

    Really, it's not rolling up ladders that I care about specifically, just ship-to-ship battles being more common than person-to-person, because I feel like the gun/swordplay in Sea of Thieves is honestly it's weakest feature.

    I like how Arena incentivizes Ship battles by rewarding cannon hits, but if you have any ideas how ship battles might be more common over boarding battles, I'd love to hear it.

  • Foxdodge
    Champion
    Insider
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @spazthemax Sorry if my post came across as being rude but Insiders are not permitted to discuss anything within the programme. What I was trying to get at, is that when you play the Arena you'll see for yourself how the battles play out.

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