For PvE'ers, this game is pretty much pointless. Let's fix that.

@xultanis-dragon said in For PvE'ers, this game is pretty much pointless. Let's fix that.:

You and the PvE community are having a problem with "motivation." You argued that hours of work shouldn't be wasted just because someone rolled in and took your loot.

Don't lump every PvPer in the same... er... boat.

My motivation for this game is to just jump in and have fun - sometimes solo, sometimes with friends. I rarely check my levels, I rarely check my gold. But I am 90% PvE.

Losing loot to another player is part and parcel of the game, you just gotta brush that off. It's a pirate game, Sea of Thieves, not Sea of Friends. I love meeting other players (usually, see my post about recent players). I've fought players and lost/won and had a good experience in chat with them - because it's still about respect. I've met players and had great friendly interactions with them as well.

What I am trying to say is that not every PvE player is a delicate butterfly afraid to PvP from time to time. I think there are changes that need to be made but the game has a good foundation.

My biggest concern right now is the toxicity levels seem to have grown in-game and on the forum recently. I'm hoping Rare can deal with this. As my buddy pointed out earlier when we were sailing - it could be down a lull between events and a bunch of new players who don't quite get the game (many joining just because of the $1 game pass sale), so maybe it will trickle off.

@xultanis-dragon

You'll need to elaborate, I skipped out on the last PvE AGM and haven't been checking the memorandums from the community. XD

Seriously, you're probably right about me being an outlier - we do get far too many posts that ask for PvE protection and even I roll my eyes.

(I had to type the long form word "memorandums" because the shortened word is still triggering the profanity filter somehow)

Edit - after reading your edit, I was avoiding mentioning he who shall not be named, deliberately XD

@xultanis-dragon said in For PvE'ers, this game is pretty much pointless. Let's fix that.:

@realstyli said in For PvE'ers, this game is pretty much pointless. Let's fix that.:

@xultanis-dragon said in For PvE'ers, this game is pretty much pointless. Let's fix that.:

You and the PvE community are having a problem with "motivation." You argued that hours of work shouldn't be wasted just because someone rolled in and took your loot.

Don't lump every PvPer in the same... er... boat.

Hehehehehe

D'oh! Thanks, it's late! XD

I obviously meant PvE, I'm just too dumb to proofread facepalms

@archibulge This thread is a complete waste of time. You've put forward ideas but have then gone to considerable effort to stifle discussion of those ideas or alternatives. This is a discussion forum, if you don't want to open your ideas up for discussion don't post them.

I personally don't like your ideas, I've explained why, I am not alone.

Everyone is entitled to ideas though. The thing is, they're just ideas. The Devs have been thinking about and working on this game for years before any of us even heard about it. You can put money on it that any good idea you think you have, they have had first.

Somehow, through all of that thinking, they came to a very different conclusion about what the game should have in it. If you watch their videos they are happy with the decisions that they have made. So am I, and the majority of people on here.

So, you think your ideas are good? We'll see if they make it into the game. Up above you make the claim that if your ideas aren't included the game will stagnate, we'll see about that too.

You're not the first poster to come on here, who claims not to have fun with the game and that if their ideas aren't listened to the game will die, the game still isn't dead, it's doing better than ever in fact.

You seem to have a high opinion of yourself and your ideas. That opinion does not appear to resonate much with the community here, but maybe your ideas will get more traction with the development team, we'll just have to wait and see.

@archibulge Whatever buddy. This thread might be an important part of your life, but it really isn't for me. I've said my piece.

@xultanis-dragon It's not like i haven't lost stuff before. As said multiple boats of fort loot and much longer loot hauls than an Athena have come and gone. To Krakens, skelly ships, just crashing your boat to a rock (yeah, not all crews are perfect) and most of all to pvp. One does not get to legend without pvp, that's just an illusion of an assumption.
When it comes to pvp, i'm the ***hole that double guns, there, that's how far i'm willing to go to win. I do whatever it takes to win, within the limits of terms and conditions. Someone must blame me for pvping wrong too.

But none of that matters cause it's all part and risk of the game. Risk that makes you feel like you've lost, but doesn't crush your soul and will to play the game further. Yeah the insults are reactionary and impulsive after the battle. But it's not crushing defeat and most of all, time lost. It's gold you can get from the next fort in the next 15 minutes. My point is, it's 15 minutes compared to several hours, that's the difference and what makes the difference. Loosing gold it's a defeat, it stings, but it's not pointless. It's a moment of glory or defeat in the time sink of a game. It still has value enough to feel something, but it's not a multihour task which only makes you angry.

Let's not forget that the pvp'rs need the pve'rs much more than vice versa. If you want to go forward in your progress and have that token of victory. I'm talking about the pvp'rs who don't pve, at all, cause it's too boring for them.

The incentive to hold loot on your ship for pve players. Currently the game has NONE, other than you like the risk, which pure pve players obviously don't. As said crashing an Athena chest sell is a rare occurrence, so this is mostly to all the other loot.

But on the other hand we are all humans, none of us are here to work for free. That's what the Athena's are about. It's a multi hour task, a grind. Not some happy go sailing look at all the gold we have aboard, hopefully no one comes and steals it. I mirror it to an actual days of work, where you get paycheck at the end. You ain't there for slavery, hopefully. No matter that the game is about thieving and pirating. That's an aspect of fun, but it's not like i come to your place of work and pick up your paycheck and give you nothing after you've done your 8 hours to benefit someone else. That's what this feels like. Yeah this might happen with out of game work too and it's called a crime or robbery, and there's a punishment for it. Here in-game there's no punishment, a crew can swoop in a dunk another one, fight or not. Take that chest, return it before the other crew has a change to comeback and simply log off or switch servers immediately after the sell, some stay and fight after for pvp, but we've seen summit for example do this on multiple occasions. Cash in and don't stay for the aftermath. You have no loot on your ship, there's zero risk for the attacker and everything to gain. This needs balancing, that's as one-sided fun as it can ever be. Yeah for most people the analogy of work might be a bit weird, but not for me. This is my work. I haven't played a game just purely only for the aspect of fun since like i don't know 1995, but that's neither here or there with this.

Games supposed to be fun, where's the fun in that? A bit one-sided ain't it? It doesn't matter if you're the best player or have no skill.. Isn't everyone supposed to have fun, even while they are learning. The incentive to get in to pvp too if you've been a pve player, other than you just want to learn to bully other people. Cause that's the wrong reason to get in to pvp.

And it's not like that Athena fight that i had, wasn't fun as fight. It got my adrenaline pumping trying to 1v4, when my crew sat at the ghost ship. I worked my heiny off not to loose that chest. That's not even the point, i'm not mad anymore of loosing one chest (as said loosing loot disappointment last about 5-15 minutes and you move on with the game), i'm mad loosing 5 hours of my day. What i'm saying is the fun of one fight isn't making up the lost time of 5 hours. It's not comparable. It's not that much fun and exciting.

And as you said it's a trend that makes people go to pve servers splitting the community. I don't blame the pvp community doing what they do, but you also have to understand that the pve'rs are not here to work for you, as said we are all humans here with agendas and goals.

So what is YOUR incentive to keep the pve players and the Athena runs on normal servers? What makes people not react the way that i did? You can call people cowards for going 180 and being weak, but it's not really helping your cause either. It shouldn't be a surprise the pve players don't play with the similar mindset that pvp players do. If you think they do, you might want to consider meeting some different people.

You'll be soon sailing in the seas with newbie ships only that carry marauders cause they don't know any better. I doubt that's not what anyone wants. It splits things further and that sucks.

Being toxic in-game after the fight, telling people to git gud. One should already know that insults don't end up with positive results. That's not going to get the pve players on to the normal servers, but on the other hand we don't need some carebear treatment either, where loot is handed in for free, that ain't fun either. All i'm asking is a fair acknowledgement of progress for the amount of work each party puts in. Whether you spent 5 hours of killing skellies or 7 minutes of dunking another crew.

We've all seen Summit's streams where he dunks on players who just can't match his crews level of organized play. Is that fun? Over and over fighting against people who don't have nothing of real value and you can sink without effort, sometimes they don't even fight back. No, it's boring. It gets old over time and the game dies when the pvp'rs get bored.
Or it dies when pve'rs have had enough of their things stolen, whilst getting nothing back for their effort.

Right now you've got pve'rs doing athena runs in a more secure environment, cause their time is valuable to themselves and having no progress happening to them isn't worth playing regularly. If that categorizes to be a coward, personally i don't give a ****. It's not even an insult to me, it's my time that i play for, people can view me as they like. I'm not here to make friends, maybe crewmates, maybe, but most of all i'm just here to play. When i'm on a crew i do what's needed, i do what's needed from others. If i need to do the sails and helm on the galleon at the same time, i do it, when rubberbanders afk. People don't find chests, i find them for them, so it doesn't waste my time. Someones tailing the ship, nobody bothers to board them, i jump off, slay them and anchor them and go back to the helm or sails or whatever. I do what's necessary to progress myself, cause in the end that's what i'm here for, i'm here to play the game not to afk leech. Most people don't do that, they expect others to do things for them, but that's not playing the game. Just as you do yours i play for my progress, that concept can differ, but it's still each ones own goal.

What do you suggest is the incentive there for them to join you and be your victim and at the time of defeat still get something out of the game, without feeling like okay i lost that one chest that actually mattered and most of my day to nothing? Cause right now there's not much..

If you read my entire first post i had a point and suggestion about splitting the reputation between the voyage and loot. That way there's rep and gold for the pvp'rs to steal but also rep for the pve'rs to achieve without wasting all of their time for someone else's fun. For further incentive i'd hope the devs add more ways to gain Athena rep, other than just one voyage type. I'm not saying easier or faster, i'm saying more variation. Something that's still vulnerable to pvp, but is at the same time progress.

@xultanis-dragon It's individual, some of the pvp community do think that means for full pve servers shouldn't be in the game, cause then again that's away from their game, in a way. One can't say that pvp'rs are only here for the fight, the loot is as you best said it also their victory trophy. And someone has to dig that loot up and deal with the skellies. When was the last time a pvp'r like Summit did a voyage? The dude is visibly bored out of his mind if he can't figure out a riddle clue in less than 2 minutes, yet he can spend 30-60 minutes hiding on a player ship. Something on the contrary i could never have the patience to do, but even after 500 chests when i hit that buried one with the first shovel stroke, it's still gives the same amount of satisfaction than the first one did that i read the map correctly from the getgo. That's what i meant by the pvp'rs need pve'rs, someone has to kill the skellies in that fort people are fighting over. And there are pvp players who won't do that, they are happy to take the loot, but off another player, not the skellies. It's the co-existence, that's the whole point. Who would pvp for longer than six months if all they did it for was to sink the opponents ship, no loot no nothing? You can do that pvp in any shooter game, what would make this anymore special without the progress attached to it..

Maybe maybe some might, but then again not every pvp player is a full pvp only and same with pve. Most players do both. I know i'm not. Just today alone. I got back on the ship and another Athena. This time with full premade galleon of 4 pirate legends, because of yesterday. For the first part we sailed with reaper on, just for the heck of it. Cause as i said we ain't in it for the gold. We sank 1 galleon twice, 2 brigs and 2 sloops numerous times. All coming at us. Not even a problem. Part of the fun in the game. For the actual Athena, we'll we ain't insane or stupid so we took the reaper down and finished it. The whole thing didn't take longer than 30-40 minutes, granted we attacked one fort in between to sink one of the sloops and brig.

You're right that the choice of open crew is mine to make and the responsibility for it. And it is part of the reason and source of frustration for my own crew. And it's not like that's every Athena run i've ever done, that would have made me quit the game if it came down to counting on solely beginner crews to do that. Also i said the pvp wasn't the problem, like really it's not the source of the problem, it's the fact that the Athena grind is locked behind that one chest and that chest alone. Heck you don't even have to sink to a player with that chest, it hasn't happened to me, yet, but i'm pretty sure the Kraken has eaten her share of Athenas, just cause someone forgot to supply planks or you only had 31 but needed 32. Legend status doesn't guarantee you're the master in the game. I've been on legend ships sinking to kraken with fort loot, all gone. The voyage is still worthless waste, cause it's all about the one chest no matter how long the prequisite took, 20 mins or 8 hours. But as i said, playing whenever and most of the time, sometimes you have to take what you're offered as the crew. At certain times you can't really be that picky on who you sail with, cause most of your crew or friends are offline. That again is choices, my choices, but that level 10 ain't going to come without effort. You do what's necessary. And believe it or not the window of 3am to 7am is one of the best to do Athenas, cause it's usually only the most hardcore playing, you get those full crews of legends, who know their stuff. When instead of prime time, you are the teacher if you've got the patience or you just look with a horrific impression on your face how some people manage to even put on socks in the morning.
Heck level 7 honestly isn't even half of the grind, it's like 1/3. But the game isn't going to finish itself.

For the hypothetical Athena in a fort. As i said i don't want them to be easier as the voyage, and to be honest this would be, unless the fort timer is longer and servers are guaranteed to be full all the time. Yeah the chest there would make them more desired, but a fort every 15 mins is still.. Like you hop server until you find a non contested one to do forts, it's a simple work around. Cause there's no prequisite that takes long to complete in a fort. You're not required to move, you can solo a fort in 10-15mins. If you're going for a non complete fort that's a 5 hour battle ahead, to me that's an easier thing to just skip at start than a voyage, cause you know the premise, even half way through. Voyage you slap down and start working on it, ain't no one necessarily attacking you, specially if it happens 5 hours later during the last chest only. But if you go on the 5 hour fort battle knowing it can go either way, it's the pvp'rs mentality to go there. In the voyage part you have to be prepared to defend in a pvp game, but you're not actively seeking the pvp like in the case of the fort. If you give up on the voyage you start from scratch with the prequisites, if you quit the fort midway through cause pvp you can server hop until you find an empty one and just clear it, you don't need to stick around till the last quest part to see if it's doable or not. But then again this other source for Athena's would drive some of the people off the backs on the voyages. It changes the dynamic as it would offer an alternative.

For we are all the same, yes. We can all swing the same sword that does the same damage. And this goes for the pve'rs here, as i said earlier about the pvp'rs who don't want to do pve. You need to learn to pvp in a game that's about both. You're right about that. But as you also said, pvp doesn't really have any down sides to it. You can go to battle without any prequisites. You don't need loot on your ship. You need a bare amount of supplies, but that's free for all. Heck you don't even need supplies to do pvp sometimes. PVE players take the risk with their loot. What do pvp'rs take? That they sink and get nothing by coming in with nothing.. There's no punishing factor for trying. As I said previously there's no repercussions on succeeding either, the sunken ship probably spawn on the other side of the map, with no tools for retaliation. Sink a ship, sell their loot, log out, switch servers, do it again to someone else. Unless the sunken ship happens to spawn to the closest island, which i admit has happened and even i have had my revenge as the attacker tried to rush selling their victory spoils and went to the bottom of the sea before they could. But that's another rare thing to happen you get the perfect spawn. They got nothing to loose, just cause they are pvp'rs. Unless they are one of those that go around sinking the entire server and keep on roaming with all their loot, knowing payback is on their way. Respect to those guys, they are obviously good at what they do and got some sacks on them. They are not afraid to show their prowess. But that's one case out of a hundred. Our previously mentioned streamer could be one. Although when you're sitting at a gold hill, the loot, all the loot has no value. Even they are pretty quick to turn in their stolen athenas. Still most pvp'rs are not this, they got skill or they get lucky and turn in and leave the server in fear of retalitation. And in the end we can't all be pvp'rs, someone has to dig up the stuff or solve the riddles, for the pvp to have any value. Yeah yeah you can have your pvp servers where friends go around and do nothing but battle each other. But i highly doubt that would carry the game forward alone in a long term process. Well it would be half the community off. I don't know if i'd be playing, i'm not that pvp enthusiastic, but neither am i pve enthusiastic either. I'm here for sandbox with cosmetics first of all (which can be categorized as rp) and game completion which in this is case rep levels and commendations, like every game i play.

I hope the future brings us more things to do.
Like you described events, minor and major.
Pvp ship battles are the dynamic ones currently, assuming there's loot on any ship. Forts are one.
Heck even the Kraken and skelly ship could be count as a pvp event, if you really look at it.
Not the first Kraken victim or ship getting hammered by skelly ship that people go to sink.
It's not all pve content, it's how to view it and the opportunities.
Those mentioned are viewed as pve content cause it involves killing waves of skellies, and most people get to do them without intervention. It's that intervention that pretty much makes every piece of content in the game pvp content, but someone has to kill the skellies too, unless it's just an open fort and first one there gets the loot, which doesn't work on this server size. On a 100 player server maybe, then the game would survive strictly as a pvp game. Cause the open forts would never be free. Unlike now, where you can hit escape and new crew and look if there's a skull in the sky, maybe sail to it if it's close and see if anyones there. Spend 5-10 mins on it and you're done. Speedrunning an Athena with a crew doesn't take that much longer necessarily, still requires more effort and it's all about one chest. Which in a way is easier to take than 10 or 15. And right now the difference is a fort you do for the monetary value, it's the easiest way to get money fast. You almost need as much for it as you need for pvp. You spawn a sloop, hit the skull, someone there, new server same thing, until no ones there and clear the waves and take your loot. Someone comes midway the waves, see how they are. You kill them easy, keep going, they overpower you, leave and new server. Rinse and repeat until rich. I wouldn't place Athena's in to that system. Maybe a new boss level sea monster, that eats kraken's for breakfast. But that would just be a source for pvp'rs to contest over (like you said, it only spawns when server is full and targets areas with multiple ships present and gives an alternative way to earn the rep. Alliances could technically also be beneficial to taking one down and then sharing the loot via the alliance or the pvp contested result.