Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them

@captainblastoff said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

it makes it impossible to hide on an outpost as anyone can see the mermaid waiting when they come in to dock.

The above sentence perfectly illustrates why mermaids must not be changed.

@starship42 I agree with some of what you've said here. But none of that can override the fact that mermaids are necessary evils for spotting outpost campers. Alert pirates can spot a mermaid and choose not to engage. Without mermaids (and gamertags for that matter), campers would have far too much advantage. People must visit outposts as part of normal play, and they must turn in their loot to specific characters on those outposts. Without any visual clues, campers would be almost impossible to spot until it's too late. That's not fun for anybody. So although I agree sometimes it would be nice to be able to dismiss the mermaid for stealth purposes, the potential for abuse is pretty high. I simply don't see it working.

@genuine-heather There must be some sort of system that prevents the mermaid from showing up when you don't want it to (during PvP at a skull fort) and still allows some sort of security when rolling up to an outpost to dump treasure. Although I feel like people's concerns over outpost camping is blown out of proportion, there's no way a large enough amount of people are going to sit at an outpost for hours by themselves. It's simply too boring.

I do think we can all agree that you should be able to swim up to an enemy ship undetected with a powder keg.. That's literally part of what makes this game exciting, nothing kills that excitement more than just suddenly seeing your mermaid appear 10 feet from your target to give you away immediately.

If you don't agree with that assessment, maybe you should ask yourself why? Why do you feel entitled to a free "early warning system" to prevent you from getting in danger? Especially one that doesn't even prevent island campers as it's pretty easy to situate the mermaid on the opposite side of the dock purposely. But out on the sea, in open-world pvp you think it's OK for a mermaid to just randomly appear giving away positions? You didn't earn that in any way, instead the game simply outs a hiding player due to lazy programming.

This game needs more stealthy pirate tales, not less.

@captainblastoff said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@genuine-heather There must be some sort of system that prevents the mermaid from showing up when you don't want it to (during PvP at a skull fort) and still allows some sort of security when rolling up to an outpost to dump treasure. Although I feel like people's concerns over outpost camping is blown out of proportion, there's no way a large enough amount of people are going to sit at an outpost for hours by themselves. It's simply too boring.

Usually that is the case. Nevertheless, from time to time I do find outpost campers. They seem more prevalent on busy servers, especially with all the skull forts now. Daggertooth seems like the most popular outpost to camp, perhaps because it's the most centralized, or maybe because of the long distance from the dock to the trading companies. Since the addition of the Devil's Roar, Morrow's Peak has become an obvious choice, being the only outpost in the region. In any event, the point is some people do still camp at outposts, even though it seems like a boring way to spend your time.

But if the "early warning system" of mermaids in the water didn't exist, I genuinely believe we'd see a spike in outpost camping. Without fear of detection, camping would be a far more successful and fruitful use of time. This is not the kind of "stealth" gameplay we should be encouraging.

I do think we can all agree that you should be able to swim up to an enemy ship undetected with a powder keg.. That's literally part of what makes this game exciting, nothing kills that excitement more than just suddenly seeing your mermaid appear 10 feet from your target to give you away immediately.

I do agree with this. But I'll qualify that with the fact that I don't believe the mermaid by necessity foils powder keg shenanigans. By the time you spot a mermaid, usually it's too late to stop a keg from ruining your day. I don't think removing the mermaid would matter all that much in most cases.

If you don't agree with that assessment, maybe you should ask yourself why?

This is starting to sound a bit snarky. I think I made it clear early that I agreed with some of your points. I think we can discuss the topic without getting personal and making it about me or you.

Why do you feel entitled to a free "early warning system" to prevent you from getting in danger?

That's a fairly hostile proposition, honestly. No answer deserved.

Especially one that doesn't even prevent island campers as it's pretty easy to situate the mermaid on the opposite side of the dock purposely.

Most people don't bother, and even if they do it means that they have to remain on land. Many campers seem to prefer to swim underwater and board as you approach the dock. The mermaid definitely serves as a warning in these situations. Even if a camper goes to the time and trouble of moving the mermaid, there's nothing stopping wary pirates from circling the outpost to check for mermaids. There's still a degree of danger since not everyone is as alert as they should be. Without the mermaid, however, there'd be virtually no chance of detecting a camper, either on or off the outpost, until it was too late. And that's simply not fun.

But out on the sea, in open-world pvp you think it's OK for a mermaid to just randomly appear giving away positions? You didn't earn that in any way, instead the game simply outs a hiding player due to lazy programming.

More unreasonable assumptions. The fact is you don't have to "earn" basic game mechanics. I don't know how this became some kind of entitlement rant. Anyway, I'm fine with "stealth" tactics. I think you're overstating the degree to which mermaids give you away. They do indicate the presence of a pirate, but not their exact location. Sometimes spotting that mermaid unexpectedly can really make your heart race. I like that. And if I'm not mistaken, doesn't your mermaid go away when you board another ship? I've hidden myself away in the crow's nest on enemy ships, waiting for a prime opportunity to strike with complete surprise, or maybe just make off with some prime bit of loot. I don't recall my mermaid giving me away in those situations.

This game needs more stealthy pirate tales, not less.

I think there's no shortage of stealthy pirates, and they've gotten along just fine to this point, mermaids or no mermaids.

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@genuine-heather just out of curiosity, would you be averse to having a mechanic where having one of your weapons selected and ready to pull out, triggering the mermaid?

It literally takes a fraction of a second to draw a weapon. If someone were sitting inside the Gold Hoarder's tent, as an example, how would your idea help anyone detect them? No, I don't see this working. Nobody would have any warning until it was far too late.

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@genuine-heather well, if the weapon has not been selected, and the player is sitting in the GH tent, the sniper would need extra seconds to stnad up (because you can't draw a weapon sitting down) draw the weapon and fire.

Standing up and drawing a weapon can literally be done in a fraction of a second. I don't know how you figure it would make such a difference.

If the player was standing in the tent, and weapon was already selected and waiting... the mermaid would have already been up since the weapon was selected prior. Long before the other players arrived at the outpost and GH tent.

Wherever the player hides, all they'd have to do is not hold a weapon while they waited. How do you figure this would make any difference at all? I'm sorry, but it's just not making sense.

That's what I'm saying. The weapon having already been selected guarantees the mermaid will already be there. It needn't be raised up and aimed to trigger the mermaid.

So an outpost camper would simply lie in wait and avoid drawing a weapon until the last second. It wouldn't change anything. No mermaid, no warning.

This means the camper needs an extra second to select and draw/aim/fire (and if he's sitting, a moment to stand up). That may be the difference any target would need to quickly react and either fight or run.

By the time you're on the outpost offloading your loot, it's far too late. The whole point is that the mermaid helps alert pirates spot the trap and avoid it. Your idea is no different than taking mermaids away altogether. That split second it takes to draw a weapon would have no impact because it would already be too late to avoid the trap.

@a-cranky-eskimo said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

Why??? Because you need a flashing blue light to tell you the island isnt safe instead of being cautious and searching with your spyglass or sending a search party? This literally detracts from gameplay in so many ways, ruins ship combat, makes boarding the most effective method because you can just tele back to your constantly running away ship...

Well, gee. I'm not saying the mermaid mechanic couldn't be improved in certain ways. There's always room for improvement. But how is a solo player supposed to find an outpost camper who doesn't want to be seen? Sending a search party isn't an option. Even with a search party, a clever camper can easily hide without being detected until it's too late. That might seem fun to you, but for most people it's really not. The mermaid in the water gives wary players a chance to avoid a trap. Unwary pirates will suffer the consequences. Removing the mermaid gives outpost campers far too great an advantage.

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

So then, what if... mermaids remained as they are now - but only at outposts? Everywhere else on the map, a mermaid had to be summoned, and wouldn't surface automatically unless summoned by the player. Would that be a fair compromise?

Yep, I'd be fine with that. I honestly don't think it's necessary but I have no specific objections. I'm only adamant that they remain a thing at outposts, for all the reasons already mentioned.

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@genuine-heather said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

So then, what if... mermaids remained as they are now - but only at outposts? Everywhere else on the map, a mermaid had to be summoned, and wouldn't surface automatically unless summoned by the player. Would that be a fair compromise?

Yep, I'd be fine with that. I honestly don't think it's necessary but I have no specific objections. I'm only adamant that they remain a thing at outposts, for all the reasons already mentioned.

Forgive me for saying so, but I find it a little ironic that you don't mind being camped virtually anywhere else, in any situation on the map; other than the outpost. The only difference between being camped on an island, to being camped at an outpost, is that at an outpost the GH, OOS, & Merchant NPCs can buy your haul...

Surely you understand the difference between camping at an outpost and any other stealth situation. Every player must eventually visit an outpost to sell their loot. It makes no sense to "camp" anywhere else.

You asked if I was willing to compromise, which I did. Then you criticized me for compromising. This is sounding less like a discussion and more like trolling.

A sharpshooter can just as easily snipe you with a ship full of loot, at an regular island, as it can before you step foot on a dock at an outpost. You STILL have to deal with the sniper regardless, and losing your ship and loot. Heh, I've been sniped just sailing past an island/outpost... didn't even have time to anchor or touch the dock.

Fine, you're absolutely right. Bad idea to eliminate mermaids. I think we should keep mermaids as they are across the board and we'll avoid all these unpleasant situations. When you're right you're right. You win, let's keep mermaids everywhere in all situations.

Some people seem to want to keep arguing for argument's sake.

@a-cranky-eskimo It seems to me you're arguing against the mermaid system as a whole. That's a somewhat different topic, though, isn't it? We're talking about making the mermaid controllable by players so they can conceal their presence. We are not talking about removing mermaids altogether. That would be a much larger discussion and would in all likelihood include ideas to alert players to the presence of other players at outposts.

I'm not a staunch defender of the mermaid mechanic as a whole so to frame your comments to me in that context, you're really doing me an injustice. That's not what this is about. This is about having the ability to remove your mermaid, within the current system, for the purposes of stealth. As I've said repeatedly, my main, if not only objection to that idea is the potential for abuse at outposts, specifically. This discussion assumes that mermaids will continue to be a necessary in-game mechanic. In that context, making the appearance of the mermaid a player-controlled option is not acceptable due to the concerns I've already expressed. It simply gives outpost campers far too great an advantage.

I have often imagined a game world where pirates could actually be marooned. Being marooned on an island is a trope common to pirate fiction but sadly lacking from Sea of Thieves thanks to the mermaid mechanic, along with the impermanence of death. But as long as there's no penalty for death, it makes no sense to cut off the mermaid as a means of return. It does no good to block only one exit when there's another right beside it. Death as a means of return applies just as well to virtually every other situation where a mermaid would appear. The mermaid simply avoids a brief visit to the Ferry of the Damned. In Sea of Thieves, with the mechanics of the game as they are, mermaids are a necessary convenience that fit with the style, flow and lore of the game. In fact they figure prominently into the lore, which in itself is a fairly good reason to keep them.

I understand the desire for something better, but if you really think it through, mermaids are a necessary part of Sea of Thieves and are unlikely to change much over time. Sorry, that's the way it is. And that brings us back to the original topic.

Since mermaids are here to stay, any mechanic that gives players the ability to dismiss their mermaid away at outposts will never be acceptable. I could see this as a feasible option outside and away from outposts. But since that compromise is apparently viewed as hypocritical, it seems the discussion has reached an impasse. To wit, the mermaids are working as intended and need no modification.

@a-cranky-eskimo said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

The point still remains that as they currently are implemented, mermaids are lazily designed and impede good sandbox story telling gameplay, far more than they truly help anyone avoid something that desperately needs to be avoided.

I quite simply disagree with this. I don't think they're "lazily designed." I think they're a thoughtful compromise. I don't believe they "impede good sandbox story telling gameplay." That hasn't been my experience at all. But now we're back to arguing against their very existence, aren't we? Like I said, that's a rather different discussion.

If people need the flare to avoid ambushes they are barely paying attention in the first place, or dont want to put in any effort to succeed,

First of all, I'm certain you realize there's no actual "flare" when you spot other people's mermaids, right? It's just the mermaid floating there holding up a torch. No visible smoke. Surely you know this but I want to make sure that's clear. They're not all that noticeable sometimes. You have to be attentive or actively looking for them to spot them.

Secondly, how do you propose people spot ambushes at outposts without the mermaid? You seem to imply it's easy, and players must be lazy or careless to miss the "obvious" clues. But what clues? If there's no mermaid, then a camper could hide almost anywhere and not be spotted until it was far too late to avoid the trap. This is the primary cause for concern and why mermaids are absolutely necessary at outposts. For this not to be the case, some other obvious means of detecting an ambush would have to be implemented.

why should we keep the game that way instead of changing the mermaid to allow more depth of gameplay and ship combat rather than it being the backbone of all pvp encounters, both aggressive and defensive....

Again, this seems to be directed at the mermaid mechanic as a whole. If you have an alternative idea to the mermaid mechanic, I'd love to hear it. But it doesn't really apply to this specific topic. The idea is to give players the ability to dismiss their mermaids. That doesn't really add depth to gameplay, enhance ship combat, or stop it from being the "backbone" of PvP encounters since the mechanic would remain the same. The only difference is pirates would be able to conceal their presence, which would clearly weigh the odds more heavily in favor of PvP oriented players. That's okay at sea, but completely unacceptable at outposts.

I already know what reaction to expect from this idea, but there's always the option of making outposts safe harbors. Then you can have any mermaid mechanic (or none) that you want. But I don't think you want that.

again i didnt mean to frame my post directly at you and i think i even said that multiple times if you read my entire posts.

No problem.

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@genuine-heather said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@genuine-heather said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@starship42 said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

So then, what if... mermaids remained as they are now - but only at outposts? Everywhere else on the map, a mermaid had to be summoned, and wouldn't surface automatically unless summoned by the player. Would that be a fair compromise?

Yep, I'd be fine with that. I honestly don't think it's necessary but I have no specific objections. I'm only adamant that they remain a thing at outposts, for all the reasons already mentioned.

Forgive me for saying so, but I find it a little ironic that you don't mind being camped virtually anywhere else, in any situation on the map; other than the outpost. The only difference between being camped on an island, to being camped at an outpost, is that at an outpost the GH, OOS, & Merchant NPCs can buy your haul...

Surely you understand the difference between camping at an outpost and any other stealth situation. Every player must eventually visit an outpost to sell their loot. It makes no sense to "camp" anywhere else.

No, frankly, I don't. Sorry. It's not self-evident to me. Camping is camping, wherever it is being done. You can be sniped and killed with or without mermaids. At outposts or not at outposts. Please understand, I am only continuing this discussion because your responses to my questions seem lacking to me and inadequately explain, imv, why you think mermaids are essential at outposts. I've already suggested that they can be moved, and thus if you didn't take the time to circle the outpost and examine the waters carefully, and missed the mermaid, you would essentially be in the same position as being at an island, with a camper waiting for just the right moment. Having a GH, OOS, or Merchant at the other end of the dock is irrelevant. You would be sniped before you reached them regardless.

I've already responded to this quite clearly. I really don't think you want to frame your argument this way, because it's rather foolish to suggest there's no difference between outpost camping and camping anywhere else in the world. The difference is glaringly obvious. But like I said, I've already responded to every point you just made, so it's pointless to infinitely rehash the same arguments. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but there are times on public forums where people will ask questions and challenge your ability to respond sufficiently. Fine, you don't like trolls or arguing. Neither do I. Of course, you don't have to answer my questions sufficiently if you do not wish. Noone is forcing you to. Personally, I'm trying to see where this mermaid necessity at outposts lies, from your perspective. But if you don't feel up to it, that's fine. No offense or needless argument intended.

Now you're definitely trolling. I have answered your questions very clearly, rationally and precisely. I've explained to you at length "where this mermaid necessity at outposts lies," but you are deaf to the arguments and simply ignore them without ever mounting any coherent counterargument. That's your choice, but don't insult me by trying to gaslight the readers of the forum into believing you've somehow "won" because I haven't "answered your questions sufficiently." I most certainly have, and more. If anything, you've failed to support your own arguments, and at times even contradicted them.

In any event, this is simply going around in circles at this point. Like I said, if you don't get it, you don't get it. That's not my problem.

I do think we can all agree that you should be able to swim up to an enemy ship undetected with a powder keg.. That's literally part of what makes this game exciting, nothing kills that excitement more than just suddenly seeing your mermaid appear 10 feet from your target to give you away immediately.

I do agree with this. But I'll qualify that with the fact that I don't believe the mermaid by necessity foils powder keg shenanigans. By the time you spot a mermaid, usually it's too late to stop a keg from ruining your day. I don't think removing the mermaid would matter all that much in most cases.

Man I don't think we're playing the same game... The amount of times I foil someone's keg attempt thanks to the mermaid is countless at this point. Same with my own being foiled. You just swim so slow with an item that if anyone's remotely paying attention they just hop in the water when they see the mermaid and blast ya...

Although that's pretty anecdotal, so maybe that's not everyone's experience.

This thread has gone off the rails a bit with the trolling accusations and all that madness. Some of the suggestions have been pretty good and some have been a bit odd (an NPC you talk to that tells you who has appeared on the island recently, imagine how long it would take the devs to make this considering their current development speed).

I just think the mermaid spawning needs a slight rework as in my opinion it only takes away from the PvP AND respawning experience, as just running from your ship if you fall off hoping for the mermaid to spawn soon isn't even a good mechanic in and of itself. Although I do believe that you shouldn't be able to call the mermaid if you're still close to your ship, as that removes a benefit of kicking someone off their own boat and taking command of it.

Even just a quick fix like making the mermaid actually sit under the water by a couple meters so it can't just be easily spotted by anyone nearby?

You might believe that spotting mermaids is easy but thats you. High levels of play are on the lower end of the player population. The majority of players are probably mid to near high? Then there are the low levels.

Mermaids are a defense for these players. We should not change them haphazardly.

I don't get this, you say it's for defense of the low level players but you said it's only easy for high end players to spot them? So then isn't it really just an easy defense for mid-high level players? If low level players have the hardest time spotting them then it should be changed for sure..

@schwammlgott said in Mermaids should only appear if you're not holding an item / if you summon them:

@captainblastoff I didn't read all posts, but first I think the mermaid should stay as it is
And second, there is a way so the mermaid doesn't spawn, didn't try it on an outpost, but it works on every other island so it should work there too...but I think I won't tell you, because I don't like outpost camper...never had to deal with them, because I always recognized them early enough to kill them/change to another outpost

Nice contribution to this conversation, glad the game's balanced around secret bugs and exploits and not common sense.

As an aside, I literally just had a bug where I got dropped off my boat and the mermaid just wouldn't spawn so I had to drown myself. Good mechanics all-round.