Why Pirate Legend Became a Race

  • WilliamHerschel
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    In the latest Tales from the Tavern podcast Craig Duncan (SoT's Studio Head) said that he was surprised that the quest to become Pirate Legend became a race. He then reiterated that the game's design philosophy is about the journey rather than the destination. Conceptually, I love this expressed philosophy. Unfortunately, the game has some design decisions that run antithetical to this concept.

    In my opinion, players should be blinded from their reputation level. These numerical ranks are what has essentially spurred the arms race to achieve legendary status, and I also believe have contributed to the hostility and negativity that some have expressed in this community. It encourages people to grind, which from a mechanical standpoint always privileges people like streamers and professionals. Which has the net result of creating hostility from "regular" players, who cannot dedicate as much of their free-time to this endeavor.

    The reputation grinding process is antithetical to the other systems in the game. If the game is truly about "the journey" it makes more sense to deemphasize reputation ranks.

    I think it makes the most sense to have wealth/gold be the only tangible metric for horizontal progression. This however, would necessitate having increased options for cosmetics and unique items at shops.

    Furthermore, we need more session specific items and events. To a certain extent we already have this with features like the Kraken. I frequently go 5-10 sessions between Kraken encounters. To a lesser extent this is even true of some of some in-game items like banana crates (which are currently exceptionally rare). Obviously, these encounters currently lack complexity, but they're a good starting place to start thinking about session specific encounters and events.

    The game should reward users who stick with a given server, which thus increasing the likelihood to discover session specific items and encounters. These session specific items and encounters have the net result of benefitting the entire sandbox and the server instance, because it means that there is yet another element that can create variability and emergent gameplay within sessions.

    Rare is at a crossroads, they can provide more options for progression in the traditional sense (that users have become conditioned to expect), or increase the arsenal of tools, items, and encounters that are server instance specific. I have no doubt that they will attempt to do a little of both. I just hope that they continue to place emphasis on the sandbox elements of SoT, over the progression elements. Stuff like the speaking trumpets have me hopeful about the direction that this game is headed in. I'm glad that Rare is listening to our feedback, but I hope that they don't deviate from what makes this game unique and different from other titles on the market.

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  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
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    Boatswain

    Human nature.

  • WilliamHerschel
    Castaway
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    @xcalypt0x

    It's the easy way out to just blanket blame the way users interact with software on a vague notion of what intrinsic "human behavior" is.

    The architecture of a given piece of software, and conceptual decisions play a significant role in the way users experience and interact with said piece of software.

    UX or User Experience and Design Theory is a large field focusing on how we use digital tools and on how we inhabit digital spaces.

  • xCALYPT0x
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    Boatswain

    @williamherschel It has nothing to do with software. It has everything to do with humans wanting to be "the best."

  • KnifeLife
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    @xcalypt0x Its got us this far as a species lol Not so sure about it transcending into games but it has the same principle i suppose.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
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    Boatswain

    @knifelife I'm not saying it's bad :) I'm just saying human beings exhibit this trait across many facets of life and gaming is no different.

  • WilliamHerschel
    Castaway
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    Founder

    @xcalypt0x

    The software determines our expectations of what "the best" is. Again, these are design decisions.

    Many modern games mimic capitalism by designing systems that reward virtual currency for virtual labor, but this is not an innate feature of software.

    I think most people would acknowledge that there are plenty of games that do not emphasize grinding. Grinding is simply a trend in modern game design.

    To a certain extent, SoT was designed with the express purpose of subverting modern trends. It's largely successful at this, but I think undermines itself by including systems like Reputation.

  • KnifeLife
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    @xcalypt0x Aha yeah i agree, i dont think it's really good or bad, just is what it is. :P

  • Sir Lotus
    Master
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    Boatswain

    as soon as you get any type of reward for progress in a game, you'll get people trying to get it all as soon as possible for braging rights.

    Same thing goes for anything else in life. It's realy not about game design. Only massively popular games that don't have any kind of progress are probably minesweeper or solitaire... and even those will show you a timer, so you can brag how fast you did it.

  • KnifeLife
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    @williamherschel Its a weird one to be honest, i agree with your point about capatilism. But SoT is kind of a contradiction to be honest, because like you said its not really a capatilist game, yet the design kind of needs it to be with the GAAS platform. It needs to draw people back for different reasons ect..

    Its going to be very interesting to see how they evolve it to do so while also trying to keep it unique to the principles of what the game is.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
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    Boatswain

    @williamherschel Oh, well yes, I agree that the game decides what "the best" means and currently that is 50/50/50 pirate legend.

    I'm not sure how Craig and Mike didn't see the race coming by including levels. If they wanted players to not care about the destination then they have made a critical design flaw.

    Personally, I don't see the race to legend as a bad thing, so I would rather keep the levels the way they are, but that's just my personal opinion.

  • MacDoland
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    @williamherschel I get what you're saying matey, however I think if they hadn't put a treadmill in front of players there would have certainly been a large number of players revolting, perhaps more so than there currently are.

    Perhaps instead of faction reputation they could have tied legendary progession to the weekly events. Complete X number of weekly events to become pirate legend. Giving more "casual" players a chance to keep up whilst also ensuring players feel they are moving towards a goal. It would also have had a side benefit of ensuring a minimum number of weeks before seeing the first legends.

  • WilliamHerschel
    Castaway
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    @xcalypt0x

    I definitely think that there is room for disagreement and debate around the reputation system and its implementation.

    Even if folks disagree with the premise that reputation should be blinded, I hope at the very least to draw emphasis to the fact that frequently our conversations surrounding this game are viewed through the lens of how the Rep system works e.g. what is "worth it" vs. what is not.

  • WilliamHerschel
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    @knifelife

    Another good in-game example of how reputation has effected the game involves gunpowder barrels.

    When the gunpowder barrels were first introduced in the alpha, you could not sell them to the Merchant Alliance for reputation and gold. Thus, you frequently saw people at the end of sessions utilize gunpowder barrels in creative ways.

    In the full release, I've seen a few videos with people setting up domino-chain gunpowder barrels, but now people are faced with the choice "do something fun?" or "sell the barrels for marginal gold and rep" and frequently folks choose the later.

  • xCALYPT0x
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    Boatswain

    @williamherschel Definitely. And this issue is present in a lot of online games. I was a big Runescape player in my younger years (still love the game but lost my membership) and there are always people looking for the most efficient xp/h and the other half of the player base who just try to enjoy the game and they clash on Reddit all the time. Runescape isn't a perfect example because it has a high-score list so being the best is kind of encouraged but you probably get the idea.

  • KnifeLife
    Commander
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    Founder

    @williamherschel I think that boils down to the whole, add content or make your own content debacle. Its just going to take a healthy balance to sort that.

    I believe as time goes on you will get more of that behaviour, its just still really close to launch so people are still in the "Capatilism" mentality as you put it. :)

  • WilliamHerschel
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    @xcalypt0x

    Yes I totally agree. In my opinion, the demographic that Rare is trying to capture here is the same that was so enamored with the Nintendo Wii. They're trying to bring a diverse audience to a niche of gaming that is typically filled with hostility and a massive learning curve.

    I've encountered so many different types of people (age, gender, sexual orientation, regions) that I barely ever encounter in other multiplayer titles (typically dominated by young males). Honestly, the way that this sandbox has grown a diverse user-base is partially what makes it fun and interesting. You see a ship on the horizon, and you never know who you'll meet. Yes, a good number of people are hostile, and some can be jerks, but you also encounter people that you never would have played with otherwise which leads to unique and entertaining sessions.

    This broader demo that they're trying to capture, is turned off by all of craziness around grinding and streaming culture. This race honestly reminds me of the 1971 classic Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Specifically the character Veruca Salt and her father. In the film, Veruca demands that her father use his labor pool to open Wonka Bars, eventually "farming" a golden ticket for herself.

  • tavishhill2003
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    @williamherschel Some good points there in the OP! I agree about prevalence of the Kraken and would like to see it visibly migrating through the waters so players can use it to set traps for other crews in their pursuit or to generally just mix up navigation some more.

    As for displaying the few vertical progression elements versus not displaying them, I get what you mean but it's tough to set the goal of becoming a legend when you have no metric to see how much you are progressing. I'd love to see an entirely different mechanic for capturing tangible manifestations of 'legendary' status. For instance, it'd be cool to have a journal in the game that gets updated with cool descriptions of your adventures automatically when cool stuff happens, though it would be super tough to track/deduce that kinda stuff contextually.

    Also the journal could be helpful for recording tutorial elements for reference later on or for letting players write whatever they feel is noteworthy in them (which islands have what animals on them, which loot is most valuable, what crew just stole your stash, what island you left the skull fort key hidden on and where, etc). You could even use these to make your own clues for a treasure you've stashed if RARE let you place pages of the journal around the world. Any mechanic one can use to communicate adventures or other creative elements to the broader communities would help create actual legends around the individual players/pirates potentially.

    Other elements I wanna see added include putting the highest ranking pirates on a server on the face of cards for the inevitable card game, or even have npc's reference your actions in dialogue. Also, add player-funded bounty voyages. In general, adding more stuff to the world that reflects your progress and adventures without a number attached to them would be great. Also, maybe they could consider adjusting the vertical rep setup now with a percentage rep meter instead. All that changes is how the number is represented but removing the connotation to discrete leveling would be helpful here I bet.

  • Prodigy Burns
    Captain
    Founder

    Well said. Right now the only tangible goal in the game is to become Pirate Legend with no other distractions present it's not surprising many would grind to achieve Pirate Legend status. Rare may have not wanted it to be about the destination, but there's not a whole lot of ways to reach the destination - at least not interesting ways. If the game were to award reputation for the things you do outside of voyages(and I don't mean turning in treasure) it'd make for a much more interesting game. I have no interest in Pirate Legend as I feel it currently doesn't mean much except for paint jobs that I don't care for all that much, but I do hope Rare adds some titles that are equal to pirate legend otherwise a year from now everyone will be Pirate Legend and rocking the same paint job and it won't really mean anything.

  • LIFEWCOKE
    Commander
    Boatswain
    Founder

    For me, the initial desire to become a Pirate Legend was due to the information that was released back in February when the press embargo was lifted, like this article here: https://www.pcgamesn.com/sea-of-thieves/sea-of-thieves-endgame

    As just some normal person, being first has no influence. Potentially missing out or having my access to content delayed while I try to catch up is a motivating factor for me.

    Most games condition you not to worry about things like equipment/gear early on. The best stuff is typically reserved for the end game. In a way, SOT did the same, to me at least.

    These days, I really do not have a whole lot of motivation to become a legend. I really want that lvl 50 merchant hull but not enough to grind for it. Even if I get to legend before the next content drop you will still see me running around in my undies with a shirt on looking like a hippy.

    Anyways, I have no idea where I was going with this. Reading back through it makes me just want to delete it all but, eh, I'll go ahead and post.

  • Merlin MAV K
    Ship Mate

    I remember feeling like gaming changed (or at least evolved in a way I wasn't in tune with) pretty fundamentally back around 2000 with the release of Diablo II.

    I was as pumped for a game as ever. It was going to be a huge, epic adventure and so much bigger than the first game. I expected to be playing the campaign for weeks and immersing myself in the game. It was also going to have a "ladder" and I remember thinking - we'll I've got quite a few hours into this series I'll give that a shot after I get through the campaign like everyone else...

    I'll never forget booting up after I was installed and seeing all these near max level players in the multiplay lobby? What? How? These people couldn't have all played the campaign already right?

    Some of them had I guess - but where I was planning to soak in every detail and explore the game fully and read the story elements and marinate in what the devs had created I could plainly see people sprinting through levels, ignoring text/dialogue, shunning the story and the very gameworld itself and trying to "break" it as fast as possible in an effort to dominate other players. It didn't really appear to me that they wanted this game they just wanted an arena with its dressing.

    I've seen countless examples in the year's since. As someone that has played all kinds of games going back to Pong and the 2600 I don't really begrudge people how they want to play things but in the past 18 years there is a BIG swath of gamers that enjoy breaking and exploiting (not trying to use the loaded version of these terms) games as much or more than playing them.

    Even in these forums you can see the evidence of the same mentality. People are mad about the lack of weapons systems or robust combat mechanics or vertical progression or something...ANYTHING that lets them demonstrate superiority, however you want to define that, when Rare actually seems to be actively refuting all of this and intentionally saying none of that has to matter to have fun and be a game you'll want to keep coming back to.

    In a lot of ways I think this game might have been much more at home on the Nintendo platform but I give MS loads of credit for bringing it to theirs and trying to show gamers another way. Not everything has to be so stale and same. I hope this game has a long life.

  • duvelsuper2
    Marauder

    Here's the thing about the argument of saying that it's about the journey not the destination. If that were true then it wouldn't be so grindy. If it was true, then the journey can be considered the tutorial and the pirate legend being the main game. Don't need 50 levels to get to that point. Then we can focus on making our own stories. Being a Pirate Legend doesn't require skill. It simple represents how long you played.

  • WilliamHerschel
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    @lifewcoke

    I agree with all of this.

    I think Pirate Legend is still a cool end goal from a conceptual standpoint. I just wish it wasn't tied to a numerical value. It'd be neat if progression was felt through multiple branching paths that occurred more organically. This is just one idea, but my larger point is that anytime you provide anything that looks like a rank in video games it will cause users to grind or exploit systems allowing them to more efficiently level up. From a design perspective, the race should not have been a surprise.

    I have no problem with the amount of time that it takes to reach legendary status, I just think it encourages bad behavior when it's tied to a number. Of all of the components in this game, it seems to be the most antithetical to the stated mission statement of SoT.

  • Foxdodge
    Champion
    Insider
    Boatswain
    Founder

    I think the fact that there's no vertical progression (which I'm completely fine with) is what makes grinding to legendary status even more prevalent. It's seen as the only thing to do, to obtain, to hold over your peers. Then, couple with that an exclusive VIP section of the game and the fear of being left behind, and suddenly the race is on.

    The grind could also go some way to explaining why things have become so hostile. With everyone chasing the fastest route to success, there's not much time for making friends, especially when their Exp could be your Exp.

  • WilliamHerschel
    Castaway
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    Founder

    @foxdodge

    Definitely. The biggest thing is that Rare needs to expand the sandbox elements of the game significantly.

    @Natsu-v2 made some great suggestions in this thread about some of the ways to do this. https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/56243/the-kind-of-content-i-think-sot-needs

    I think the foundation that they are potentially laying in today's update is great, and I like the idea of having regionally specific cosmetics. The game needs to continue to expand in that direction but in a much bigger way.

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