We Need to Talk About AI in SoT

  • While today's content plans video was greatly appreciated, and it's exciting to speculate about the things that are coming in future updates, I think we need to have a serious discussion about the current AI in SoT. Especially since new NPCs and enemy types are going to be a significant feature of these content updates.

    I have some serious concerns about the AI in this game going forward because AI continues to be a weak spot in this game. There is evidence for this in a several areas.

    It seems pretty clear to me that the primary reason they are withholding additional forts from us is because the AI simply would not be able to handle the geometry placement of some of the more complex forts.

    Higher level Order of Souls missions feature "artificially" buffed skeletons in an attempt scale/increase difficulty due to the fact that skeleton behavior and overall combat does not increase in complexity. It's a shame that we don't encounter more complex skeleton group/unit behavior and instead Rare has decided to utilize bullet-sponge enemies rather than deal with the underlying problem that in general Skeletons have very few branching behaviors. At forts, most skeleton combat typically devolves into "kiting" enemies to various chokepoints and swinging swords repeatedly or using cannons (used under certain scenarios especially non-standard skellies). Higher level order of souls missions are even worse and essentially revolve around picking off gun weilding enemies one by one with the pistol or eye of reach. Otherwise they essentially insta-kill you if you run into an entire group.

    The biggest issue with combat is that it continues to feel cheap and grindy, instead of feeling fluid and engaging. The best way to reduce what I'm talking about here is that the limitations of the combat and the game itself are used/subverted to defeat skeletons, instead having a combat system and enemy AI that encourages players to use the tools at their disposal in clever and exciting ways. At higher levels, skeletons don't feel any more difficult than they do at the beginning of the game, rather they just increase the probability that skeletons spawn with weapons that increase the odds in their favor, whether it be increased health, more projectile weapons, or increased likelihood of special skeleton types (increased movement/combat speed especially in plant-types and shadow-type skellies).

    Skeletons need more branching behavior trees to make them feel less like ghosts in Pac Man and more like something that you'd expect out of a modern title like Halo or Zelda.

    I feel the same way about the animals that populate the islands. The complexity of animal behavior is essentially just limited to "scatter." Why don't animals recognize other animals and try to communicate? Why do animals run full speed to the edge of islands into the ocean and continue running.

    In the Art of Sea of Thieves, there is even talk about swimming into schools of fish and watching them swim away. Instead swimming into schools of fish just reveals how hollow the life is in this game. The truth is that many of the inhabitants of the world are essentially just static animations on a perpetual loop.

    I'm super grateful for today's content roadmap, and optimistic about future content updates. However, if these new updates are going to be AI heavy and introduce more enemy-types into the world of SoT, I have some serious concerns about the existing complexity and branching structure of the AI in this game.

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  • I think the Skeletons are there to make getting a chest slightly harder and to make getting a Key substantially harder. Beyond that, what do you expect?... they have no brain.

  • @cupohemlock
    This. This game does not need nor was designed to have depth around combat. This doesn't mean it doesn't have a combat "system" of course but let's celebrate that there is a deliberate move away from min/max style gameplay. It's one of the appealing things about the game.

  • I am at very low level, around 20-15 in all alliances and honestly I don't look forward to those bullet sponges, that's always the most lazy design ever.

  • @merlin-mav-k @CupOHemlock

    Not intending to be confrontational, but I feel like the two of you didn't read my post.

    This isn't about simplicity or the overall design philosophy of SoT, this is about the clear limitations and lack of depth that currently plagues the AI in this game.

    In general, I'm pretty positive about SoT and its direction under Rare. But the lack of playable skeleton forts (likely) due to issues surrounding AI tracking is not a "feature" nor is watching animals flee full speed into the water.

    I too enjoy simplicity in game design, which is why I enjoy SoT, but that's not really what I'm talking about here.

  • Agree this enemy AI/Combat need some work. Mostly just two types for me are frustrating.

    The gold ones you need ammo and/or water and/or cannons to fight so if you get a bad spawn point (up high w/out ammo chests and water source) it sucks.

    The pistol mobs are pretty annoying, accuracy is too much and there's no counter. The shotgun ones you can bait then back up to stay out of damage range. They hit you through objects and even when their vision should be obstructed.

    I'd like to see.

    • Way to counter/block/dodge pistol skelly's
    • More ammo chests, like at almost every barrel point.
    • Usable/carryable ammo packs
    • Throwable items with aoe (area of effect) like damage or status effects, like grenades or flash bangs in other games.
    • One more weapon slot on top of that so you can mix and match a little more.
  • I am only currently 26 in the Order of Souls, and up until now I was impressed with how (it seemed to my friends and I) that they were employing new tactics from my 1st skelly encounter and seemed to do so until lvl 20).

    I have no real way to know, clearly. From skelly lvl 20-25 as noted above ... pretty much the same but harder forcing the same kiting etc techniques.
    I can not say above that ... yet.

    My biggest gripe about the skelly gun mobs is that they have amazing accuracy w/ any firearm at, seemingly any distance as well. Not so for us pirates.
    The skellies can often fire through cover. for instance when you swim below the land ridge, and or through your ship when swimming to board using the ladder on the seaward side to not get shot by skellies.

    As for the pirates that commented about the chest and key gathering, I believe William was speaking about Order of Souls voyages. Someone has to keep bringing down those undead captains, and crews that just refuse to stay dead.

    For OoS voyages I think we expect more from the skelly AI as the progression in reputation lvls. I was impressed but I will be disappointed a bit if it is just all the same.

  • @williamherschel an issue i have with skellies AI is that you can literally back away from them and they swing a sword with obvious distance between you and them and will still hit you. This really is annoying since getting hit both interupts and delays the sword lunge move. This issue, along with skellie God Mode Aimbot, is very annoying. It makes me feel like the dodge mechanic is completely useless

  • @williamherschel said in We Need to Talk About AI in SoT:

    @merlin-mav-k @CupOHemlock

    Not intending to be confrontational, but I feel like the two of you didn't read my post.

    This isn't about simplicity or the overall design philosophy of SoT, this is about the clear limitations and lack of depth that currently plagues the AI in this game.

    In general, I'm pretty positive about SoT and its direction under Rare. But the lack of playable skeleton forts (likely) due to issues surrounding AI tracking is not a "feature" nor is watching animals flee full speed into the water.

    I too enjoy simplicity in game design, which is why I enjoy SoT, but that's not really what I'm talking about here.

    I read it William, I merely addressed your assertions about AI

  • @freejacx

    I agree with all of this. Currently, the AI in this game just feels really cheap. It hits you almost immediately, that the AI is behaving in very simple and scripted ways. Which is why they probably have skeleton accuracy and bullet sponging so high, because it's a really cheap way of masking that short of those two things none of the AI in this game really puts up very much of a fight at all.

    Again, I love SoT, but knowing that more enemy AI is incoming is very concerning considering the AI that is currently in SoT is so barebones.

  • @WilliamHerschel couldn't agree more. Ever since I first played the alpha I was like "I really hope they touch up the combat/AI combat". Unfortunately it is still the same :(
    It's just dying to feel more organic... More fluid.

  • @cupohemlock They have no stomach but eat bananas. No brains doesn't make an excuse for their lack of AI.

  • That fact that the majority of forts aren't active (ahem including the ones seen in the trailers as active!) is definitely a problem that has yet to be acknowledged in any way by Rare. I think 90% of raids are at Shark Fin Camp.

  • @williamherschel If they upgraded the AI in any significant way they'd open up a huge can of worms with the rest of their shooter mechanics, though. I would rather a redesign of the type of PvE combat encounters rather than the AI - this game's niche is the ships, not the blunderbuss.

    I feel like they need to drop the OoS (and merchant) voyages and just have skeletons be random spawns that drop skulls as you're out looking for your chest (or just plain exploring) - without the increasing bullet sponge factor (and by the same token, collect whatever chickens you want to sell to the merchants without the need for a voyage). Simplify rote treasure collecting to make "boss" fights stand out in their difference.

    "Raid" encounters should focus on combat from the ship - the kraken is a good starting point, for example. Likewise the forts should all have some sort of mythical sea boss that emerges who requires final defeat from sailing the ship instead of playing the whole time like a half-baked shooter playing a cheesy horde mode variant.

    This way you can still keep the simple AI to go with your simple shooter mechanics while creating unique and challenging (because of teamwork and far superior sailing mechanics) ship PvE encounters for the big rewards.

  • @tedakin

    It's a pretty even distribution between Shark Fin, Crows Nest, and Keel Haul imo. But yeah, there's definitely a reason why some of the forts are not "active" and I'm willing to bet that it's almost certainly due to their verticality and the AI's ability to track players. Spawning may be an additional issue.

  • @mostlyjustokay

    I'm not sure of the technical feasibility of this. But I'm still a major proponent of making skeletons part of the habitat of islands instead of spawning them on timers out of monster closets. The one exception to this rule might have to be skeleton forts.

    To a certain extent, we already know that it's possible to have AI load in when you get close to Islands (see: animals). I'd like to see a similar approach with the way that they handle skeletons.

    I maintain, that the world continues to feel lifeless, and a good part of this has to do with the way that they handle enemy spawning. Most islands have pre-existing architecture, and it'd be cool to see these spaces pre-populated. I'd love to see skeletons just hanging out, playing music, rolling dice, sitting around campfires. Instead of this silly spawning, auto-hit, endlessly pursue, branching logic that they currently utilize.

  • I have expressed my worries as well.

  • @sappyelephante

    Beyond AI issues, skeletons could really use a bunch more animations to make them feel like "physical objects" instead of just floating hit boxes.

    Several new animations were added close to launch, and I'd love to see that sort of thing expanded. Because there really is a lack of visual feedback in the way that they interact with both your weapon and the geometry that surrounds them.

  • @williamherschel I agree with you. Even if most skeletons had to climb out of the ground after you established aggro, I'd still like there to be some kind of "life" on these islands - the carrot of "treasure" wears thin very fast in terms of spurring adventure as the grind is not designed particularly well.

  • Part of the frustration with these fights is also linked to the RNG I think as well. RNG affects the difficulty of the boss fights quite a bit,

    spawn location: can you get cannons on the mobs? Is there barrels nearby? Ammo chests?

    mob type: gun skeletons vs melee/sword ones? skeleton type + spawn location, gold ones with no water around or ammo chest? algae ones with too much water around or rain? ghost ones at night?

    All those factors determine the difficulty of the mobs, but the skull reward RNG is completely independent of all that so you can end up in situations where you got the hardest difficulty possible and got the lowest reward possible. Those should be correlated where reward scales with difficulty.

    But that's a general problem throughout SoT, where it leans too heavily into the Random of RNG, instead of having it weighted so that task difficulty/time required doesn't match up with the reward.

    Diablo 3 was a game with a similar problem at launch and Rare would do well to look at that as an example, the RNG for loot was equal across the board for loot drops so people were just going around hitting objects to get high level items instead of playing the game and fighting the bosses because a random object had the same chance of dropping high level gear as a difficult boss.

  • @cupohemlock said in We Need to Talk About AI in SoT:

    what do you expect?... they have no brain.

    i loled

  • @tedakin said in We Need to Talk About AI in SoT:

    That fact that the majority of forts aren't active (ahem including the ones seen in the trailers as active!) is definitely a problem that has yet to be acknowledged in any way by Rare. I think 90% of raids are at Shark Fin Camp.

    Ditto.

  • @williamherschel There's AI in SoT? I'll be damned.

  • @marlonngrando

    These are definitely problems too. Nothing is more frustrating then when gold skellies spawn on the very top of large islands. I've had a Order of Souls quest spawn in at the peak of Shipwreck (where the only way to get up to it is taking the shipwreck's mast). Needless to say, a bunch of a gold enemies with pistols up there is one of the worst scenarios imaginable.

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