[Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone pt3

  • As referenced in this announcement, any and all discussion and opinions on PvE versus PvP balance and preferences can be posted here.

    As a reminder, the Pirate Code is more than just guidelines, but the rules of the community and game that we expect all members to abide by when participating on the forums. Any member who fails to abide by the code may find themselves put in the brig, or removed from the community.

    Thank you!

    The Original Mega Thread on PvE versus PvP Discussion for Reference:
    (https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/29120/mega-thread-pve-versus-pvp-discussion)

    Part 2 - https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/31642/mega-thread-balancing-pve-and-pvp-to-ensure-a-great-experience-for-everyone-discussion

  • 355
    Posts
    62.8k
    Views
  • Throwing this in here again for the new thread,
    Cross post from my discussions post:

    Ship spawning needs a serious change.

    I've said this before, and I know this time it's a scale test but I feel the need to re-iterate how desperately respawning your ship needs changing.

    Once again, my GF and I got to an island to complete a voyage. A ship sails along and we get in a fight for about half an hour. We win. Not only do we sink their ship but after they spawn at the mermaid and continue to attack us about 3 times, we killed them too. We used banana's, resources like cannonballs, planks, all the lot to keep ourselves defended. We won, and battled for it. They spawn their ship using the mermaid.

    Like in the beta, as it has happened to me before, this exact scenario, they spawn incredibly close. At a nearby outpost. With fresh resources. They come back and we sink them again. They come back YET AGAIN and sink our ship because we have no planks but we kill them on their ship. And now starts the worst experience for both us and our enemies who came back. My GF and I spawncamped them until they left. After our ship sinking, and the island being what we needed and properly defended before, it was all we could do really. They died i'd say at least 10+ times between them. They put up a good fight but ultimately I had access to more ammo and their banana's. This was not fun for either of us. It just creates a terrible playstyle where there's no punishment for your ship sinking as you can come back and harass the people who sunk you, but you get fresh resources. Literally the only reason we came out of that scenario "winning" was because by the end I had had enough and sat on their ship killing them until they left us alone. That sucks for everyone involved.

    Again, I know this is a stress test and they said they'll be looking at respawning but I'm specifically trying to raise awareness of the ship respawning mechanics, as they are what have troubled me and my partner most.

  • For both benefices to PVE, PVP, PK and camper players, chests must give gold to both side or a little for the PK and the rest for the team who achieve the PVE mission.
    Pk, camper players and pvp/pve players can be happy and not waste theirs time. Win win situation.

  • Its mostly balanced except for the fact for it being a pirate game & hosted on quite decent dedicated servers it seems like its balanced nicely, except for the fact sometimes when you go into combat & you get hit with a sword it locks your controls basically & its worse in a corner cause you can't move.. But wish to see more ships this coming Scale!

  • @capn-tonis I can say they have been crunching down on that between builds of what they've released some load times seem to be longer for me so its either they are re-spawning further or something magical is happening which deems to need explaining :l

  • I would love a faction system that is chosen each session similar to crew and ship, if that’s how we matchmake at launch.

    This would include a merchant naval alliance, and a pirate alliance, each with a few rankings that affect spawn timers and other stipulations associated with the faction. The navy would have to protect the merchants and the pirates would be allowed to fire first while the navy could only fire first on pirate ships and the merchants can only defend themselves. They would have cosmetics linked to them, and if someone played the merchant class and tried to act like a pirate for example, they would be punished for their actions appropriately, such as being “banned” from merchanting for a time. It would be player to player and give reason not to be a troll, because then you can’t play as a merchant or navy guard for a certain time, and might not be able to play with your friends. actual factions and repercussions that don’t change the fairness of gameplay, but cater to different playstyles and add more risk to pirating and more of a defensive edge to pvers. This is a simplistic description of the idea and if this gets enough upvotes I’ll make a thread, or if someone wants to take this general concept and improve or expand upon it go right ahead.

    This would also give players no excuse to not to defend their ship and then complain about it, if they see a pirate faction ship approaching they can be almost sure of an attack, though I would love if some pirates could be “privateers” that might trade with merchants, preserving that feeling of not knowing a ships intentions.

  • @z1n6 YES! that is a good point actually. ive noticed if i just spam the sword on someone their only chance is to just defend and jump. or to try and hit me with a blunderbuss for an insta kill. if they miss, however they are screwed.

    i think the sword play is a bit lacking. but its a pretty minor detail compared to everything else the game offers.
    definitely an issue though along with the respawning stuff.

  • @toastywrath said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone pt3:

    @z1n6 YES! that is a good point actually. ive noticed if i just spam the sword on someone their only chance is to just defend and jump. or to try and hit me with a blunderbuss for an insta kill. if they miss, however they are screwed.

    i think the sword play is a bit lacking. but its a pretty minor detail compared to everything else the game offers.
    definitely an issue though along with the respawning stuff.

    You need to read the sword fighting thread that's been blowing up all morning lol

  • @k7-issues i havent seen that lol. thanks for telling me.

  • @toastywrath https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/33162/training-with-subzarr-advanced-swordplay-guide/75

  • Any chance that we will get see what Rare's thoughts are on this instead of just aimlessly throwing out ideas that likely will not see the light of day? It always seems like these types of threads are pointless since we do not see any engagement from the people who are actively looking into this issue.

  • @whisperycamp49 PKing and Camping is all about getting a thrill from making other people unhappy. A solution that makes everyone happy won't work for that crowd.

  • @a-cranky-eskimo said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone pt3:

    I would love a faction system that is chosen each session similar to crew and ship, if that is to be how we matchmake at launch.

    This would include a merchant naval alliance, and a pirate alliance, each with a few rankings that affect spawn timers and other stipulations associated with the faction. The navy would have to protect the merchants and the pirates would be allowed to fire first while the navy could only fire first on pirate ships and the merchants can only defend themselves. They would have cosmetics linked to them, and if someone played the merchant class and tried to act like a pirate for example, they would be punished for their actions appropriately, such as being “banned” from merchanting for a time. It would be player to player and give reason not to be a troll, because then you can’t play as a merchant or navy guard for a certain time, and might not be able to play with your friends. actual factions and repercussions that don’t change the fairness of gameplay, but cater to different playstyles and add more risk to pirating and more of a defensive edge to pvers. This is a simplistic description of the idea and if this gets enough upvotes I’ll make a thread, or if someone wants to take this general concept and improve or expand upon it go right ahead.

    This concept of having set alliances would be against what the game was made for. When you have such a large team it becomes more of a large RedvsBlue game.

    I do agree that there should be some incentive to not troll 24/7.

  • @lifewcoke said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone pt3:

    Any chance that we will get see what Rare's thoughts are on this instead of just aimlessly throwing out ideas that likely will not see the light of day? It always seems like these types of threads are pointless since we do not see any engagement from the people who are actively looking into this issue.

    I agree, I would like to see he point of views and the perspectives of people who actually develop the game. We don't have enough insight as we don't live and pay for everything in our life off the development of games as the devs would do. Please give us some insight Rare!

  • @lifewcoke they have addressed a few of the bigger issues in here already such as:

    the respawn issue (said its being worked on)
    they said at this time NO safe zones or PVE only areas/servers.

  • It definitely still needs some work, or they need to crate different modes to be able to load into. I'm all for defending our booty when another pirate attacks, it makes things exciting and unpredictable but being hunted down and camped by people who doesn't want to move on is ruining this. The community seems nice with SOME people I ran into during the stress test but there is also just a lot of malicious players abusing the spawn system and Outposts/brig...

  • @lifewcoke said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone pt3:

    Any chance that we will get see what Rare's thoughts are on this instead of just aimlessly throwing out ideas that likely will not see the light of day? It always seems like these types of threads are pointless since we do not see any engagement from the people who are actively looking into this issue.

    I think Rare's thoughts on this are to just keep things the same as they are, currently.

    There's really no need to even be trying to discuss this topic anymore lol

    But, it's still fun to read people's ideas and watch things unfold in these threads.

  • @helter-monkey Whats considered trolling? lol

    watch your horizons and prepare for every scenario. like ambushes and sneaky beaky pirates climbing your ladders and you wont get "trolled"

    Its a really imersive game if you arent paying attention to things like. a random mermaid at an outpost ( meaning theres probably an ambush waiting for you to turn your chests in) then you are asking to get "trolled"

  • @helter-monkey thats why I suggested they are not permanent and are chosen each session based on how you wish to play that day, as it stands every ship is a possible enemy, this wouldn’t really change anything about how players already divide and group themselves, it would just let players of the same intention see each other as allies in game, im sure pve players would like the change to have players that are supposed to help them because of game mechanics, instead of people hoping for alliances from pirates, and then complaining. If you never fire first play as a merchant and get 5% more gold for chests, if you like pvp play as a pirate and get 5% more from stolen chests.

    I don’t see any negatives arising from a system like this besides empty words about not splitting a playerbase that was never together in the first place. I’d much prefer an actual in depth game mechanic based solution like this than anything else. The game already is a red vs blue scenario, this system would provide much more depth in decision making and reduce that arena Kill on sight mentality, if there were repercussions and other positive incentives attached to each faction.

  • @feliciscognito Ive said this penty off times. but the things you just mentioned as ruining the game are easily avoided by just paying attention to the details man. lol

  • With all respect, I don't think a Pt.3 of this thread would be necessary...
    Pt.1&2 were already a bloody messed up battlefield between players, you'll just see more and more of the same (already proposed) ideas.

  • @a-cranky-eskimo This is a sandbox game. having "factions" like that dont really fit the core concept.

  • @toastywrath can you elaborate?

  • @toastywrath I don’t see why not... can you elaborate??? Lol

    The system I’m suggesting dosnt limit freedom, it just has reasons to choose a faction based on the style of play you want, if I didn’t care about merchanting I could
    still play as that faction and use the surprise, the punishments for failure would just be higher, while at the same time providing benefits for players with more moral playstyles. I can almost guarantee that having some forms of gameplay attached to a more moral code and having punishments and positive incentives based on different playstyles for each faction, would significantly decrease the perception of pvp as trolling, and would likely reduce the amount of actual trolls who play.

  • @feliciscognito Of course.

    1st issue i hear alot is ambushes at outposts.
    with this circle the outpost at least once looking for ships and mermaids before going ashore if you see either. people are there. then send a scout ashore before going with chests to look for people. even when you go with the chests leave a combat skilled pirate to defend chests that couldnt be taken in the first trip

    2nd. when treasure hunting. leave a lookout in the crows nest to watch for ships on the horizon. when this person sees a ship send another person back to the ship to sail it slowly around the island to show them your there and when they get close if you arent done treasure hunting point your spyglass/sniper at them to let them know you see them. sometimes keeps people away.

    3rd. if you are continuously being attacked by the same crew. move to a new area on the map (usually outskirts) voyages are based off of where you currently are. (full day trips are farther and half day are usually close by) you wont see them again most likely.

    i have alot more tips ask questions and id be happy to share ideas on how my crew has managed to stay alive and not lose a ship yet ^.^

  • @toastywrath nobody here needs these tips, and they aren’t a good reason to argue for less content or whatever it is that you are saying.

  • I don't see how partitioning the game into different modes or sections {which is honestly what I see them adding down the line } would break the core concept. It's definitely never going to be easy to incorporate fixes without distorting their initial concept, but if the main game is anything like what I played this past stress test.....it just seems like a lot of abuse after going on.
    Thanks @ToastyWrath but I do actually feel really comfortable with the game's systems in play, what you just explained was just how to play safely imo{hopefully everyone is doing those} . We've been doing that and while I've only played two stress tests session entirely, I understand how the game performs just fine. By no means do I want the competitive edge driven away, just a better way to filter out players who soak in abusive play style.

  • @a-cranky-eskimo Well for one that reply wasnt for you. also had nothing to do with your faction system. i actually didnt notice one of the things you said about it which i like alot. being that you pick them at the beginning of each session as a temporary thing for certain bonuses. not a bad idea id roll with it.

  • @feliciscognito i understand that. all im trying to say is there will always be those people. no matter how you change the game. i feel that the game is really well balanced as of now ( just an opinion) and that learning how to deal with "abusive" play styles like that would only improve your experience so you dont feel trolled. also adds a level of immersion i dont think most people think of at first ^.^

    just seems like alot of people from what ive read are kind of over exaggerating the toxicity of the community.

  • @a-cranky-eskimo said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone pt3:

    @helter-monkey thats why I suggested they are not permanent and are chosen each session based on how you wish to play that day, as it stands every ship is a possible enemy, this wouldn’t really change anything about how players already divide and group themselves, it would just let players of the same intention see each other as allies in game, im sure pve players would like the change to have players that are supposed to help them because of game mechanics, instead of people hoping for alliances from pirates, and then complaining. If you never fire first play as a merchant and get 5% more gold for chests, if you like pvp play as a pirate and get 5% more from stolen chests.

    I don’t see any negatives arising from a system like this besides empty words about not splitting a playerbase that was never together in the first place. I’d much prefer an actual in depth game mechanic based solution like this than anything else. The game already is a red vs blue scenario, this system would provide much more depth in decision making and reduce that arena Kill on sight mentality, if there were repercussions and other positive incentives attached to each faction.

    I get what you are saying and it does sound like a nice way to play. but having the world split into teams with the ability to see each other would bring about your "allies" come to you and yank your chests because they know where you are at.

    It would be nice to have a faction system that is displayed by your flag. Sorta like how GTA online does theirs, if you are dangerous and have been killing pirates and looting, have the jolly roger displayed on your ship. if you are a Gold Hoarder or Merchant alliance, have their flag displayed. this would benefit both groups.

    Rowdy Pirates can tell who is more likely to have loot.
    Merchants/traders can tell who is more likely to take their stuff on sight.

  • I also want to make it clear im not trying to fight or argue with anyone. but rather just remind people that we haven't played the full game yet and to be patient ^.^

    also to not be salty about how people choose to play. it is in fact a pirate game. they werent exactly star citizens lol. youre supposed to be mischievous right?

  • Mentioned this in other 'PvP/PvE' threads:

    Rare want's players to be the pirate they want to be, and the only way to do that and represent it in game, is with reputation.

    The more PvP you initiate (kill players and sink ships), the farther your rep moves to being 'bad'. Alternatively, the more NPC quest you complete, the farther you move towards being 'good'.

    Your rep would be 'worn' as the color of your name and ships flag.

    Blue - Good
    Light Blue
    White - Neutral
    Orange
    Red - Bad

    The Dev's would need to determine how many kills it takes to climb to 'Red' (ie. 1000 ships sunk /player kills?) and how many NPC quests it would take to climb to 'Blue' (ie. 1000 quest?). It should represent a significant investment in time and effort at either end.

    Many players can and will find a way to balance both and float around neutral, if that's the pirate they want to be.

    As a consequence to being 'red', there should only be a couple Outposts you can trade with. As all the other 'red' pirates will be forced to go there, they'd be the rougher Outposts...... perfect for any murderous pirate.

    What this does is add player customization outside cosmetics, which many players are looking for. It also adds a limited form of consequence to 'aggressive' PvPers.

    The biggest advantage I see to a system like this in game is the community building. The difference between seeing a red or blue flag on the horizon would be significant.

    Any pirate who sails the seas should have a pretty good idea of who's good and bad, and since we all join random servers each game, there's really only one why to represent that, and it's a rep system.

  • @helter-monkey i agree with your flag idea but my faction idea is very similar in intent. Nobody would be able to see each other on the map, and if a pirate crew sinks a pirate crew that’s fine, this idea is really for the benefit of the crying masses of pve players who vow to cancel preorders. If a player wants to ruin their ingame rep by being a dirty merchant then they still can, I still fail to see how adding this changes anything negative for anyone except pvpers, the game is already like the Wild West, and I definitely don’t want to demonize that playstyle but again my idea has nothing to do with permanent teams with map gps systems or whatever.

  • @capn-tonis

    I agree, sunken ships respawn with nothing to lose, so they keep attacking to the point where it gets boring. They should respawn as far away as possible in my opinion.

    To tie this in with pvp vs pve, if a sunk ship spawns far away then there is an incentive to defend your ship( your spawn point) whilst also attacking the skeleton forts. Skeleton forts seem to be the ultimate blend of pve and pvp and if you know there is a risk of another crew turning up, sinking your ship and then killing anyone left at the fort, then you would be far more defensive of your ship if you also knew your ship was spawning far away.

    Simply put, the further away your ship spawns after it is destroyed, the more value the ship then has and the more tenacious crews will be to defend their home on the waves.

  • @stem589 Love this idea.

    if anything this is an improvement on the faction thing. i would love to see this polished off a bit.

355
Posts
62.8k
Views
1 out of 355