@undercover60
Yeah, and I'd prefer the grind to not be a slog. It feels like I'm trying to punch down a brickwall. I'm no stranger to grinding in games but I mean warframe as a good example of a grind heavy game. You're not going to be in a situation where it takes you nearly half a year or more to grind for a singular item with factions, and I know apples to oranges. But, the main crux is the grind is at least a lot smoother and less constricting. Yeah there's a pvp faction but at the least max those out within a month in a mode that stills sees action. AND NOT IN A 6 MONTH TO A YEAR AND A HALF SPAN FOR THE AVERAGE CASUAL.
Hourglass is Dying
@blandmann said in Hourglass is Dying:
@undercover60
Yeah, and I'd prefer the grind to not be a slog. It feels like I'm trying to punch down a brickwall. I'm no stranger to grinding in games but I mean warframe as a good example of a grind heavy game. You're not going to be in a situation where it takes you nearly half a year or more to grind for a singular item with factions, and I know apples to oranges. But, the main crux is the grind is at least a lot smoother and less constricting. Yeah there's a pvp faction but at the least max those out within a month in a mode that stills sees action. AND NOT IN A 6 MONTH TO A YEAR AND A HALF SPAN FOR THE AVERAGE CASUAL.If it took you that long to get the curse, you did not “grind” it. It doesn’t take that long…
You know what takes a very long time? The shores of gold curse, what a nightmare imo, but guess what, that’s because I don’t enjoy it. I think many people also don’t enjoy HG, but they want the curse. Same for me with the shores of gold curse, but I don’t ask for it to be easier to suit me :)
@capt-greldik
I mean shores of gold could be knocked out in a week or two if you're diligent and running SS. It's not as bad as people say it is, I was also just drawing an embellished length of time it could take a casual player who doesn't no life SoT on the daily for the skeleton or athena curse.Yeesh, 1 week? In my guild we had a dedicated group of 3 who actively grinded the shores of gold curse daily, while cheesing as much as possible by sharing checkpoints, and it took them a whiiillle. Far longer than a week, longer than a month, and this is 3 people using every method they knew of to get it done as quickly as possible.
Also, maybe we need to define the word grind. If you’re doing a couple hourglass matches at the end of your session, that’s not grinding. If you spend most of your playtime doing hourglass, it isn’t that bad and the benefits are massive, in that one will improve greatly at combat.
I can’t say for sure without testing it or reviewing someone else’s test, but I’d say they’re comparable in time required, but my point was that if one likes HG, it’s not so much of a grind, and similarly so with tall tales. Many HG forum post (not necessarily this one) come across as advocating to make getting the curse easier so that they can acquire it and never look back.
@capt-greldik
While I'd like to insult you I'm trying to actually restrain myself, I've tried putting a solid 8 hours into HG got as far as level 5 so far with maybe one or two wins and that's it. Rest was getting bodied by the idiots who still play it like it's arena.@blandmann said in Hourglass is Dying:
@capt-greldik
While I'd like to insult you I'm trying to actually restrain myself, I've tried putting a solid 8 hours into HG got as far as level 5 so far with maybe one or two wins and that's it. Rest was getting bodied by the idiots who still play it like it's arena.Why would you want to insult me? Also, why are the people who “bodied” you idiots? This took a weird turn. Bye.
Edit; so you’ve got level 5 but you’re already advocating for change, makes sense… I wonder if you’re one of those people who simply want the curse, don’t actually care about hg, and will never look back even if they DID implement your ideas. IIII wonder……..
@undercover60 said in Hourglass is Dying:
Hear me out… it’s because the PvP isn’t all that enticing to a much larger part of the community than you think. Plenty of good reasons for that…
Just because you dislike PvP, does not mean that's true for the rest of the playerbase. Sea of Thieves would not be this successful 6 years down the line if the majority of players never want to PvP. I see all kinds of ships fighting over the Fort of Fortune this month. I've even had a PS5 galleon attack me at one.
The truth is that PvP is fun as long as you have a chance to win. Interesting combat scenarios and how much you stand to lose or gain just add to the experience.Ways I think hourglass can be saved
Implementing seaforts into hourglass. First you would activate the side you'd want to join then if you cleared out a seafort you would get a new option to raise a flag depending on which side you have your hourglass activated on which would then sink your ship making the sea fort your spawn after death point and in order to defeat a seafort in our glass is to lower the flag which would be slow but can be re-raised if lowered any. To defeat an invader attacking the sea fort just sink it there ship. Also having a fort would give you a key to the vault and prison cell so that way you can lock people up in the prison of the sea fort and store things in the vault and be able to lock the door so it's not as easily stolen unless you are defeated. Similar scenario with a skeleton fort.
Hourglass alliance would basically create a fleet battle where if you're in an alliance and all have hour glass activated and all vote to dive... you would then all dive to fight against another hourglass alliance. True chaos and it would feel like arena again. Also in an hourglass alliance friendly fire would be turned off on cannons against allies with cannons so you don't accidentally sink them.
They could have a loss streak system for every x amount of losses stacked it pays out in y amount of exp for a win breaking the losing streak. This way it feeds the dopamine hit of actually feeling like you're making a comeback.
That would just cause more loss farming, sadly.
@grumpyw01f nothing you said was any less anecdotal than what I said. I posited the possibility, you can choose to agree or disagree but you definitely can’t prove it anymore than I can.
Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but in a match where both players are evenly skilled then their chances of winning are 50%. The chance of you winning 5 times in a row if you're constantly getting matched against equal players is now (.5)^5 = 3% !!!
3%
And yet you see players like MassiveSponge, Nessie, and Erin Stirling with streaks of over 100. It's almost as if HG was designed to only reward the absolute top players and if the Skill Based Matchmaking is just throwing them whatever meat it can find.
It's bizarre.
@rare-jumbie said in Hourglass is Dying:
Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but in a match where both players are evenly skilled then their chances of winning are 50%. The chance of you winning 5 times in a row if you're constantly getting matched against equal players is now (.5)^5 = 3% !!!
3%
And yet you see players like MassiveSponge, Nessie, and Erin Stirling with streaks of over 100. It's almost as if HG was designed to only reward the absolute top players and if the Skill Based Matchmaking is just throwing them whatever meat it can find.
It's bizarre.
There are a lot of killers in the queue, no doubt, but the sterlings, sponges, and nessies are a tiny percentage. I started HG probably around last May/June. I mostly played solo but these days I mostly play duo. I have 201 in guardians and around 360 in servants, my win/loss ratio is overall about 50%. That accounts for all my matches as a total newbie, my current matches as a junior killer (Greldik, TM), and everything in between. Nowadays my ratio is better, but that doesn’t mean I don’t get curb stomped frequently; however, I rarely have matches where I feel like I didn’t have a chance, at least.
I play primarily on NA west, but I end up on NA east as well depending on who I play with. I’ve also played on Aussie servers (when there’s a queue) and I’ve dabbled on EU servers.
Aside from the cheating situation, which is drastically better after EAC, my experience has been good. Yes, it was rough starting off, and season 9 was plagued with cheaters, so the queue wasn’t terribly healthy, but now it feels pretty good.
With all that said, I think that more rewards are great. Upgrading the skelly curse between 100-200 was some of the coolest content I’ve had in SoT. The skelly curse is cool, and getting commendations for all the customizations is really rewarding. I didn’t really care for the guardians rewards, the ghost curse is super cool, and I’d love to have the ghost gold curse one day, but I don’t get too excited about unlocking boots or shirts.
I’m not a fan of any suggestion to make getting the existing rewards easier, but adding rewards between 0-100 is a great idea, imo. That way players can experience the fun commendation chasing from the start, rather than waiting for 100. I don’t have ideas for what sub 100 rewards should be, but the more the better.
I think that the matchmaking isn’t terrible as it is, but only if the queue is healthy. If the queue isn’t healthy then you get who you get. Mitigating cheaters is huge for queue health and I think we’re benefitting from that right now, at least on NA servers, and getting more players interested with more rewards would only help as well.
TLDR; more rewards, but not easier rewards.
I agree with more rewards and not easier rewards, I also want HG players to be awarded with additional tools or options to help them in High Seas (session based, obviously), not just cosmetics.
In general my win rate has improved as well and before season 12 came out I was able to get to a streak of 4 or within 2 hours of playing--at that point I usually hand in my hourglass. That being said, every win for me is a loss for someone else. I technically shouldn't be getting a streak of 4 as often as I do and I see it as a sign of a broken system that only rewards good players. I am good. Incidentally, it's still going to take me an absurd amount of dedication to get the gold curse so at this point my participation in HG is really for my own clout and to warm me up for High Seas.
That really shouldn't be the case either. Hourglass should have more incentives for all types of players to get involved.
And yet you see players like MassiveSponge, Nessie, and Erin Stirling with streaks of over 100. It's almost as if HG was designed to only reward the absolute top players and if the Skill Based Matchmaking is just throwing them whatever meat it can find.
It's bizarre.
Yeah, it is, but realistically they'd still be on top in any system.
Which is why I would still want to preserve a bit of the streak system and make sure there's a rank for these players - I think the best of the best players should still get rewarded with massive allegiance payouts for their skill... Something has to be there for them, or else they'd resist any changes to the mode. My goal is to make things less crushing for the average player without ruining the pros' ability to excel.
I don’t see any competitive games that actually reward winning game after game like this because it should be unsustainable. Rewarding Allegiance based on MMR or rank should be instated but for some reason Rare decided against that.
It’s as if they took the High Seas approach “it’s not really yours until you hand it in.” and baked that risk/chance factor into HG. Feels totally fine in High Seas but misses the mark a bit in HG as I feel like a victory over another crew is supposed to be decisive and so should the rewards.
@undercover60 said in Hourglass is Dying:
@grumpyw01f nothing you said was any less anecdotal than what I said. I posited the possibility, you can choose to agree or disagree but you definitely can’t prove it anymore than I can.
How is it anecdotal to posit that players that play a PvEvP game aren't mostly PvP averse? It follows that a the average player is going to partake in average activities, and a major portion of the game's content involves being at risk of or looking for PvP.
They could have a loss streak system for every x amount of losses stacked it pays out in y amount of exp for a win breaking the losing streak. This way it feeds the dopamine hit of actually feeling like you're making a comeback.
That would just cause more loss farming, sadly.
This could be implemented if the loss-XP structure is reworked in the way I suggested.
If match activity is tracked, and loss-XP is scaled to activity, then no activity (loss farming) could justify awarding 0 XP.
I also think win-XP for breaking the losing streak shouldn't exceed 1.5x the usual XP for a win.
This would make the cost (time-investment) of loss farming higher than the benefit of winning after a losing streak.
Grinding through, for example, 3 losses just to get 1.5x the usual payout after a single win... doesn't seem that lucrative imo lol.
However, if someone is genuinely trying, but losing (awarded appropriately along the way), and then they finally get a win, and the XP is higher than they would've gotten otherwise, this may help provide them with that dopamine kick blandmann was referring to.
I'd like to say that I did loss farm at higher levels because I have up back then. My first level I committed, I even thought I could use hourglass as a place to practice PvP and be better. But it was demoralizing to hit several cannon shots and even do a few one-balls on the enemy sending them to the ferry, but the loss xp was still the same tiny bit.
The current system really encourage to win fast or lose fast, and to dip if you are not winning within the first minutes. But not only that but it can be frustrating when you don't want to lose lots of supplies, or their streak or emmissary grade or anything, and sometimes you want to make the time invested even worth the effort so you avoid having the tiny xp and go for the win after a long battle.
I have the legendary curse and I am at 105 at guardians, but I don't have the skeleton curse. I went to do hourglass during Gold and Glory, but I didn't enjoy my time that much. On Saturday my first match was a loss, and the rest were wins, those felt great, but I literally could hear my opponent in the mic saying "How is he reloading so fast?", well, I was reloading as soon as I shot a cannonball, without waiting to see if my shot landed or not, it was about putting pressure, but that's not my point. My point is that he seemed like a new player and got demoralized by how I managed to shoot so fast and eventually sunk his ship.
On Sunday it was terrible, all those wins changed the matchmaking for me and got much skilled opponents who did the same as me but more accurately and devastating, so it was me the one biting the big one. Butost of those fights I barely managed to repair my ship and had to do some resets to repair. However, only two of my battles that day were quick losses, with the others I decided to sail out of bounds because the fight took too long and none of us were winning. I met a Dice Roller, it was refreshing, I lost the dice roll, but that is ok, that was a breath of fresh air from this stressful mode so I am not complaining about that loss. My final match during Sunday was my only win for the day, however this is what I wanted to tell you guys here. My last fight took near Crescent Isle, and we had a long hard battle and since I was losing the whole day I wanted to get at least one win during the last day of Gold & Glory, and I fought with sail management, circle loops, prioritizing shots over buckets because sloops sink slower, and went on repairs when needed. The problem is my opponent was just as skilled as me, and he did resets as much as I did. That battle was long, tedious and definitely stressful. In the end I won, not because I outplayed him, but because he used the mic and the Speaking Trumpet and told me that he was tired, and he gives up, that he would drop anchor and just let me sink him. His words were: "I am (curse word) tired of this, man. Want to sink me? Here, I'll drop my (curse word) anchor. (Another curse word)" and his voice tone was so depressed and sad. Like I could imagine how horrible he felt to have done everything he could only to get that tiny amount of xp. I wrote on text that I don't blame him and that I am thankful for the victory, but he didn't respond back, then he despawned in the water.
I am sad, it wasn't the kind of victory I expected, and perhaps I am being too soft for having empathy on that guy. Losses feel so bad, and the current system only takes into consideration the outcome, not the time, effort or performance.This is exactly why I decided to farm losses for my last Guardians levels, because by fighting I am just delaying my sink if I can't see myself winning. It's not because I am lazy or wanted to avoid PvP. This Gold and Glory weekend I committed to fight again and not farm losses because I saw someone on Reddit with the argument that "If you commit to learn, you'll get better and win, and that's faster than loss farming."
I don't feel that way, it doesn't feel like that to me. People learn at different rates, some can catch up quickly, some will take a lot of time before they can dominate the basics, not everyone learns at the same speed. And a player will keep getting that loss xp until they can start winning consistently, and that could take a long time.And remember: In order for someone to win, someone else has to lose. Someone has to take that tiny portion of XP no matter what so the other side can succeed, and both players are required in order for hourglass to work. So how can we motivate the losing side to keep trying if they don't see any meaningful progress?
I am not good at PvP, but I don't consider myself terrible, I can pull my weight a bit and I can give a decent fight. I can repel boarders, I can land cannon shots and get good angles with the wheel and sail management. I am just not a super god at PvP that can win with long streaks and never lose, that's not me.
P.D. I hate how sometimes it seems I have a good angle, but the waves move my ship so my cannon shots are too high to land, while the enemy can get me with theirs. That is frustrating as that is actually not under my control, but I still get punished for it.
One thing the streak system does do correctly is prevent people from just scuttling the moment the fight isnt going their way.
Because the streaks are so important, you hold fast, knuckle down, pull out all the stops, and sometimes have some epic reversals.
But I do agree that the streak mechanic is weighted far too heavily, and has harmed the game mode more than it has helped.
On a completely seperate note, I do miss those drawn-out slugfests, where the fight teeters on the brink over and over, and you hear the other team give heart-felt 'GG's' and "goood fight guys that was close, thought we were done for!" or "that anchor turn was nuts" Etc etc
Was rare, but the HG does have its community jn there somwhere
There’s a lot of discussion about a whole host of topics around HG here so I’ll just give my quick thoughts after reading through. I’m a long-time player. I was an arena player, and am an avid hourglass player.
This may be shocking to some of you, but it’s a simple truth. Hourglass is absolutely a skill based mode. If you are struggling with it and are demoralized, you need to do some research. Learn from other players. YouTube it. It is played entirely differently from adventure mode. Hourglass crews operate under strict roles and rules. We can’t sit here and pretend this isn’t how it works. These crews have the skills, the practice, and it shows. They will dominate until they run into the inevitable “bigger fish”.
I agree we could use some more motivation to get more players involved with the more competitive side of the game. Give us dailies, and more cosmetics to encourage grinding longer than 200, which is where most committed players drop off.
But let’s not sit here and pretend in any form or fashion that this mode should cater to any player. Many people have said it themselves, it is simply pvp on demand. This is where you find people that want to pvp. They will naturally be better than the average pirate. And no, the curses should not be available through any other means. They are a display of dedication and skill. I can count on one hand how many times I’ve run into a pvp cursed player that didn’t give me a good fight.
This brings you back to the age-old meme: Get good. And yeah I know it sounds harsh, but it’s reality. If you want the curses, you need to put in the time to learn and get better. That’s not to say HG couldn’t use a little love. It could. But demoralization and abandonment are personal problems. There are plenty of players that are out there getting sunk time and time again, and getting back up and diving time and time again because they are committed to improving. They are the ones that’ll find enjoyment. If players can’t see that, this obviously isn’t for them. And that’s okay because it’s a choice.
@blandmann this reinforces my point on skill. You’re not getting “bodied by idiots”. You’re getting sunk by efficient crews that know how to play the game. It is entirely on you to adapt and improve. I can say this because I did just that when I started my hourglass journey. I realized my skill in adventure wasn’t enough. I learned about the roles, and lining up cannon shots consistently. How to bilge effectively on every ship. Which side of the ship you want facing the enemy. All of this makes a wild difference. It’s on you to figure that out. Not Rare to make it easier for you to enjoy it
Because the streaks are so important, you hold fast, knuckle down, pull out all the stops, and sometimes have some epic reversals.
Wouldn't potentially losing rank and tier payout be enough? I've also stated I'd want the streak system to remain, just in the background. I think there's plenty to get players to try to win, even when they're losing. With the loss xp ideas from here it would only improve.
I can say this because I did just that when I started my hourglass journey.
When did you start your journey? I can say that hourglass had plenty of room to learn when it first came out, as there were enough people playing it then. As in my graphic, hourglass is no longer the best place to learn PvP for a new player. There's not a ton you can learn from getting bodied over and over. There's still a major personal component to getting better at any competitive game, I'm not disputing that (not that you were responding to me in the first place). The best way to learn right now is to find a mentor willing to lose with you. That's kind of rare and it's why new members are few and far between.
There are plenty of players that are out there getting sunk time and time again, and getting back up and diving time and time again because they are committed to improving.
It's good that there are players who try hourglass and really like it the first time. Those are just the players that will grow into hardcore players. But I don't think a mode only receiving support from hardcore players is a good thing.
Every mode's got to have more than just the core contingent, and that doesn't mean catering to noobs. That means improving the experience and having rewards better match the real outcome.
I know there are some on the thread who just want things to be easier, but I just want to reiterate that the solution isn't making things easier, it's making things more rewarding and fair.If getting good felt like an attainable goal with more goalposts along the line and feedback from the ranking system, players would be more engaged despite losing more at the start.
@grumpyw01f I agree overall! And to respond to your question, I started my hourglass journey about a year ago. Granted, I already had years of adventure and, while it was still open, arena experience. But I was still getting demolished because hourglass is a different beast and you can’t play it the same way you might in adventure. At the time there was a lot of talk about not only HG being dead, but the game as a whole being pretty slow. So it was mostly the “sweats”. I grinded to 100 Guardian almost exclusively on solo/duo sloop, which is very painful. I looked to YouTube for a lot of my questions surrounding hourglass. I started watching Blurbs, Phuzzy, KaiJoi, and HitbotC. All good creators with serious skill and tons of tips. It was grueling for a while, but after doing a little research and practice in both hourglass and adventure, I saw improvement pretty quickly. After I got my ghost curse, I took a break for a year to play other games and came back at the current season’s drop and began grinding for the skelly curse. This time around I got my crew together for it and we’ve run a galleon the whole way. I hit 200 last night and we’re going for gold.
Honestly my biggest issue with hourglass is how needlessly toxic people can be lol. I really value the matches that end with jokes or compliments back and forth. There are pros and cons to it, but muting all comms text and voice of other crews while hourglassing, especially solo, can save you a lot of grief. I would say that’s a big reason more players don't go back to it. It’s not just that you’re being sunk, the other guy is telling you how bad you are etc. Nobody likes that. We’re all trying to have fun. But such is the general nature of social pvp games.
@burnbacon said in Hourglass is Dying:
Month later, Hourglass still alive and well.
^_^Alive? Yes. Well? I don't think so. As you should know, generally any game/mode is going to have some players. In that sense, hourglass will never truly die.
The statement that hourglass is declining still holds and you're just clawing at petty semantics for something to say.This is an interesting thread, im a new PS5 player got about 260hrs since release (bought game 5th May) on PS5 and no previous experience with SoT.
Me and a mate done PL as quick as we could probably took around 3/4weeks whilst trying to learn the game.
The rest of my time has been spent on HG trying to get Skelly Curse on every single day for probably 6 hours, I’m currently level 58 I’m doing the whole 2 streak strategy, I aim for 4/5 levels a day but I don’t play any other game mode and won’t until I get Skelly Curse probably chill for a week or two then go for Guardians curse.
I love HG it’s made me soooo much better at naval and foot PvP… I still get slapped by better players though but every match is a learning curve.
Guess what I’m saying is for us brand new PS5ers we don’t really know any different to the current state of HG and I can see why some don’t want to play and be melted in majority of matches, it’s either for you or not.
Secondly, realistically I expect it’ll take me another 3/4 weeks to achieve lvl100 but should I be aiming higher ?
I missed the Community Weekend too so all my progress is on normal rep alliance rep gain. :) (the grind is real)
Also if any of you hardcore PvPers would like to help me on my journey feel free to add me :)
Guess what I’m saying is for us brand new PS5ers we don’t really know any different to the current state of HG and I can see why some don’t want to play and be melted in majority of matches, it’s either for you or not.
This isn't something exclusive to new PS5 players lol.
SoT is a funny game. Half the point of it is PvP, yet Rare has marketed the game in a way that makes it look like a family-friendly co-op. And, unlike the Elden Ring or XDefiant devs that just tell their players to "get good," Rare nerfed the game into the product we have today.
As a result, this drew (and retained) a crowd that is mostly averse to PvP. We once had our own PvP mode called Arena. But because of the playerbase's interests, the mode saw very little activity. This was made worse by Rare's poor design of the mode in the first place, and then their failure to update the mode, or even provide it with basic maintenance. Eventually it was shut down.
In its place, Rare introduced HG. And don't worry, new PS5 players haven't missed much. As literally nothing has changed since its introduction. Outside of same-faction battles, HG is just as it was at launch.
The playerbase that was already averse to PvP didn't engage in the content. Without a proper SBMM (Elo is insufficient), casual players were further dissuaded by lopsided matches. Some folks got their base curses and left the player pool.
What you have left is the folks who really want the final curses, and those who just really love SoT's unique PvP lol. I used to be part of the last group. I never played in a SoT competitive league, but I played Arena almost every day through covid years. From what I gathered in your post, you might fall into this group too.
Then you have some folks who experience burnout. One day, you come home from work, and find yourself asking, "am I really gonna get hitregged on some dude raising anchor today, or am I gonna play something fun?"
Anyway, to tie all this into the thread: some folks will never want to PvP, and that's fine. Some folks will PvP regardless of how broken the game is, and that's fine.
But for the dissuaded casual folks, or the burnt out regulars, a ledger system like @GrumpyW01f is suggesting would at least help retain their interest better than the game currently does.
@grumpyw01f I think Arena had more things right than HG does. They just need to bring back Arena and keep HG and see which one flourishes and which one sinks.
@soulstinger2k20 Ya, it stinks that it takes Rare a minimum of 12 weeks to add any new content. So knowing the current roadmap, we probably still won't see any HG changes for another year or two at a minimum.
@theblackbellamy I’m in the same bracket as you, I’ll continue to play as I like the mode, as I said in my original post too I get slapped around a few times but it’s also given me confidence and has definitely improved my PvPing ten folds… once you realise a loss is all just about learning what you could’ve done better they start to not bother you as much.
@thamb0
The one thing that I like better about Arena was that it had so much more complexity, because of having 5 ships and multiple different maps. I never really got tired of it.Arena had its problems, but looking back, all Rare is ever going to see is a failed mode. There's no chance they ever release it again. I could see it come back for an event, though. Something like Arena where multiple crews are trying to find and dig up a macguffin and sell to their faction leader.
The problem is that this sounds dangerously close to the Skull of Siren Song, a good idea to revive a piece of Arena that completely failed, only because the reward isn't worth fighting over when you get no rep and they're extremely easy to find.
Rare's got a problem where they have such a crunched development schedule that they never have time to fix broken implementations. It wasn't until the beginning of this year that they even put together a team dedicated to bug fixing! Most things that they release, they leave alone even when it's obvious it's not working well.
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