I think Anti-cheat is great.
On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community
@alienlazer said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
@valor-omega I think a lot of the problem stems from people not knowing about the decision that is being forced upon them. More transparency with this situation is better in the case of personal security. If my posts can at the very least help one person make an informed decision on the matter then it was worth it.
Many focus on what Rare can/should do and I tend to focus more on what is in our control which is what the community should or should have done.
Streamers/content creators/ Partners reach thousands and thousands of people.
They are major players in the narrative game, the narrative shifts, the demands/asks.
That is a power that should be used to give a voice to those without that reach but instead they used it to tear down the game, engagement farming for "dying game" and the over-hyping content that was never going to get anywhere near the hype. "anti-cheat" with zero substance other than the buzzwords.
They could have used the power to bring on knowledgeable voices, have reasonable and genuine discussions about these issues. Help inform and guide and lead with information, instead it was "game dying" "OMGosh this is AMAZING" "anti-cheat"
Constantly taking and profiting off of frustration and outrage and then turning around and profiting off over-hype is unethical business and leadership imo.
Any one of them that did the above could of had on someone like you or the many others like you in the community to have a genuine discussion about this. Nothing for clicks.
Individuals have very little power in regards to what Rare does or doesn't do, they have a lot of power in regards to how we as a community approach and discuss these issues.
@valor-omega I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your view on the matter. You're correct that kernel-level anti-cheat is likely the most effective to combat the distribution cheat software that has been making the rounds in the underbelly of the community. Kernel driver based cheats are also a reality and can be used to overcome kernel-level anti-cheats so there will still more than likely be cheaters but they will need to be more sophisticated in their software. The issue is the cost that is incurred to the average player who engaged with the game in good faith - they're the ones that foot the bill on security.
@wolfmanbush I think that the community Rare has developed is quite a good one. There are some flaws with it that are mostly consistent with the standards we expect from the current state of social media where loud voices are over represented but you can tell that they value the input of their players. I hope that they can overlook the fact that a literal nobody is making this case and take it into consideration for the health of the game and gaming community at large, but that's on them.
@alienlazer said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
@wolfmanbush I think that the community Rare has developed is quite a good one. There are some flaws with it that are mostly consistent with the standards we expect from the current state of social media where loud voices are over represented but you can tell that they value the input of their players. I hope that they can overlook the fact that a literal nobody is making this case and take it into consideration for the health of the game and gaming community at large, but that's on them.
I have a question,
How does this type of anticheat operate with cloud gaming on a pc/browser?
and if it doesn't really change anything about how people play on the cloud is that a reasonable alternative for those on pc, to continue playing (even if they gotta use a controller)?
@wolfmanbush I'm not going to pretend that I have a specific answer to your question about cloud gaming, but I am aware that many of the methods that security conscious individuals use to protect themselves (such as virtualization) are recognized as violations of the anti-cheat TOS. It should work in theory, but fine attention should be paid to make sure that you don't infringe on either Rare's TOS or EAC TOS.
i should add the xbox players trying to think they finally have 1 up on the pc players for having inferior hardware.... lol xbox has a kernel. let me guess you are also the people who think macs are immune to viruses just because hackers werent going to waste their time going after a smaller user base. more people have a windows machine so more potential chaos to cause (and more importantly money to steal). so no your console isnt immune to viruses its just the nature of consoles you arent installing random software (generally speaking) the point of this post is anti cheat software is giving bad actors the potential to have full access to your system. your xbox is just a weak pc. its not much different.
the bigger issue here is most pc gamers like to get their hands in things and mess around. they want control of their system and allowing 4th party have core access to your machine in todays day and age when every company on the planet is getting hacked... if ez anti cheat gets hacked and the millions of people playing games running it both console and pc. but thats a big "when" basically just hope you arent playing when it inevitably does happen. heck it might not happen till sot goes full single player. we already laying the ground work for that with solo seas anyway
I'm not aware of any exploits that have been discovered or used against some of the bigger name anti-cheats. Your PC is not screwed, its just that if an exploit were discovered you would be vulnerable to it. The issue with kernel-level anti-cheat is that it provides an avenue for attackers to bypass your computers built in defence mechanisms and hackers can do whatever they want once they get in there.
These anti-cheats have just built a metaphorical door for hackers to try and break into; this door is as secure as the development team behind the software make it. It's unlikely that some hacker in a basement is going to target your door specifically, but because of how prevalent these doors now are around the community, there is a lot more incentive because they can break into everyone's house that has that door if they can break into one of them.
Genshin used mhyprot2. sys as their kernel-level driver which is proprietary to the publishing company and was compromised when the valid driver signature was used to disseminate ransomware. It's likely that you've never had this on your system if you haven't played any of their games.
If I were to personally advise you... I would avoid games that employ kernel-level anti-cheat, especially if you have valuable personal information on your system. Your information is not leaked but it is vulnerable if an exploit is discovered.I guess, just based on precedence, it's a risk I'm willing to assume.
Any time one boards a flight, there's a risk that the flight is going to crash either due to human error or technical failure. But I'd feel safer flying with United Airlines than I'd feel with... idk, some dude who owns a plane and maintains it himself lol.
Like I said, I'm speaking from ignorance, so maybe that analogy isn't as appropriate as I think it is. But if the company has had a good history of QAing their product and thoroughly checking for security vulnerabilities, then I feel safer with EAC than I'd feel with whatever proprietary thing some indie dev team created.
Luckily, I never played Genshin. Saw a buddy stream it once in a discord VC and it wasn't my thing.
@theblackbellamy said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
I'm not aware of any exploits that have been discovered or used against some of the bigger name anti-cheats. Your PC is not screwed, its just that if an exploit were discovered you would be vulnerable to it.
I guess, just based on precedence, it's a risk I'm willing to assume.
Any time one boards a flight, there's a risk that the flight is going to crash either due to human error or technical failure. But I'd feel safer flying with United Airlines than I'd feel with... idk, some dude who owns a plane and maintains it himself lol.
Like I said, I'm speaking from ignorance, so maybe that analogy isn't as appropriate as I think it is. But if the company has had a good history of QAing their product and thoroughly checking for security vulnerabilities, then I feel safer with EAC than I'd feel with whatever proprietary thing some indie dev team created.
Both are pretty safe but I can tell you from experience there are some R. Quaid from Independence Day out there depending on the area and situation, lol. A lot of the small plane pilots live and breathe flying, always a risk but pretty safe overall.
I'd compare it to something like small town Dentistry vs higher resource and population area Dentistry.
Both are gonna be qualified and generally know what they are doing but the quality and effectiveness of outcome can be quite a bit different. Good to have both, for major issues probably best to choose the road trip.
I agree with the post in principal.
However in practice, I badly wanted anti-cheat to be implemented by Rare putting the time into coming up with server side detections and taking it seriously.
The community begged for a 'turn-key' solution, because they either don't know the downsides to kernel level anti-cheat, how easy it is to bypass, or they didn't trust Rare to fix the issue, which is fair enough after seeing how 'hot topics' like server performance, hitreg have been similarly handled, (making progress, but far far slower then anyone expected)
Cheating vs Anti-cheat is always a race / war. And if Rare can't keep up serverside, I understand why they are tempted to lead to standard industry solutions, especially with the pressures of the ps5 release.
Yes cheating is vastly over-stated in this game, I've been playing since launch, and before most cheats were public or existed, people were crying about cheaters without proof.
There were the occasional reports of people getting done in by private cheats, but most of the reports were just people salty that people who can aim at a competitive level in FPS shooters existed and were double gunning.
However, the current level of cheating is high enough that something must be done, and I say this from personal experience as a heavy doubter of hackusation claims for years.
It's primarily an optics problem. The amount of perceived cheaters is too high, and when the amount of cheating WITH EVIDENCE is high, people are more likely to believe false hackusations, because they see other forms of cheating with heavy evidence. This creates a culture that the game is full of cheats, which leads to less sales etc.
So Rare MUST deal with it, loudly and visibly, to turn this situation around.
The easiest solution they have available, in addition to server-side defence checks (which aren't nearly as visible) is to license an anti-cheat service such as easy anti cheat / battleeye etc.
And considering they are a Microsoft Studio, who has an existing relationship with EAC and Epic (especially considering that SoT runs on a custom Unreal Engine) it's a no brainer for Easy Anti Cheat to be the default solution to this problem, despite the obvious issues that kernel level game drivers have.
The better solution long-term is if Microsoft themselves wrote a Game Integrity Services for Xbox Live, that applied to all Xbox Live games, considering they wrote the security model of the Xboxes, they should have the experience necessary to deliver a solution for PC gaming, and have the vested interest to do so. They are also in the unique position of authority on Windows driver development, so probably have the necessary skill to create a non-vulnerability filled kernel driver anti-cheat.
@wolfmanbush I do not think that XCloud needs an anti-cheat: on the cloud you can't use cheats, you can only use overlays, but viewing auto-aim, invulnerable ships, invincible players, overlays aren't a major problem...
This completely defeats the purpose of this post, though. It's about kernel-level access to user data, so whichever system you install it on, with your personal data (i.e Microsoft/Xbox account) is compromised.
Unfortunately, players had years to fight back against the cheaters themselves and shut them down at a lower level. Unfortunately this is a failure on us and we allowed them to find a home in our game so much so that Rare felt it was necessary to turn to anticheat software. It may not be the perfect solution but Unfortunately the time for that has passed.
@alien-gaming007 thank you for putting this together.
I play on Xbox and PC, the choice depending on my mood and objectives. I am also nervous, and will be monitoring the situation closely. I’ll probably uninstall my PC version for the time being.
It will be interesting to see how soon it takes people to start complaining about the anti-cheat not working. The majority of cheats are simply skill disparities, and the lack of acceptance.
@captain-fob4141 said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
Unfortunately, players had years to fight back against the cheaters themselves and shut them down at a lower level. Unfortunately this is a failure on us and we allowed them to find a home in our game so much so that Rare felt it was necessary to turn to anticheat software. It may not be the perfect solution but Unfortunately the time for that has passed.
Cheating happens, it'll exist in pretty much everything with multiple people.
People that enable it by justifying and dismissing it like some have been doing with cheating/exploiting on the PVE side are contributing to the culture of inconsistency but there isn't anything people could have done other than report it and not get involved in it.
Going through the support process was always the way to go. Personal attacks, witch hunting, public accusations, aggressive conduct, etc doesn't help anything, doesn't change anything, doesn't lessen cheating.
My personal opinion has long been that I think Rare did better than they got credit for and they were up against unreasonable expectations for a live service game. Certainly didn't deserve the more harsh feedback they regularly faced. Criticism isn't a problem but a lot of it was more on the mistreatment side in approach.
I think it'll be alright. Waiting and worrying is the worst part about a lot of things. It's here now, it'll work out.
Now that it's here we get to look forward to an environment that will have a bit more accountability. Like people have been saying, even if it helps catch some, that's more than none. Not a failure, just a journey of learning. Tough part is over, now people can adapt to what exists rather than worry about what might happen.
Unfortunately, players had years to fight back against the cheaters themselves and shut them down at a lower level. Unfortunately this is a failure on us and we allowed them to find a home in our game so much so that Rare felt it was necessary to turn to anticheat software. It may not be the perfect solution but Unfortunately the time for that has passed.
I'm sorry, but what the hell were we supposed to do?
Sink them? Tried that.
Report them? Did that.
Scold them? Don't make me laugh.I agree with Wolf when he says the community is to be held accountable for leniency or support of exploits that borderline or overlap with cheating (like item duping). But even I wouldn't hold the community as a whole responsible, when you have folks like Wolf actively speaking out against it.
No amount of preaching is going to stop the script kiddies from using speed/TP/flying hacks, ESP, aimbot, item spawning, etc, just for the sake of ruining another player's experience. They're not going to listen to you. They're not going to listen to me. And the onus shouldn't be on us to do any preaching anyway.
@theblackbellamy said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
Unfortunately, players had years to fight back against the cheaters themselves and shut them down at a lower level. Unfortunately this is a failure on us and we allowed them to find a home in our game so much so that Rare felt it was necessary to turn to anticheat software. It may not be the perfect solution but Unfortunately the time for that has passed.
I'm sorry, but what the hell were we supposed to do?
Sink them? Tried that.
Report them? Did that.
Scold them? Don't make me laugh.I agree with Wolf when he says the community is to be held accountable for leniency or support of exploits that borderline or overlap with cheating (like item duping). But even I wouldn't hold the community as a whole responsible, when you have folks like Wolf actively speaking out against it.
No amount of preaching is going to stop the script kiddies from using speed/TP/flying hacks, ESP, aimbot, item spawning, etc, just for the sake of ruining another player's experience. They're not going to listen to you. They're not going to listen to me. And the onus shouldn't be on us to do any preaching anyway.
Vigilante approach just ends up with people getting themselves yellowbearded while thinking they are making a difference.
Same goes for this patrolling the seas stuff that people are doing with the pve exploiting. Sink boats, steal treasure, it's all good, just don't target, "teach a lesson" etc etc.
Ends up with people getting hurt and losing their way. Which isn't what any of this should be about.
It's just about maintaining an environment. That's all it is, it's not personal.
We have forums and other platforms to have conversations about these things, none of us should be actively targeting anyone, teaching anyone lessons, etc.
@theblackbellamy said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
I agree with Wolf when he says the community is to be held accountable for leniency or support of exploits that borderline or overlap with cheating (like item duping). But even I wouldn't hold the community as a whole responsible, when you have folks like Wolf actively speaking out against it.
I don't know if I'd even agree with that. The fact that Rare is not (at least publically) doing anything to prevent or punish these exploits creates an environment where more people are likely to start doing it too because why not? Nothing bad will happen.
I mean they had a recent duplication exploit that forced them to reduce the reputation and gold amount for items temporarily, which affected everyone who wanted to do these activities over that weekend, reversed the change once the double XP event was over and then never fixed it, rolled anyone back, or handed out bans. AFAIK, people were still doing the exploit as of yesterday with no consequence (it might be fixed in today's update, not sure).
We have forums and other platforms to have conversations about these things, none of us should be actively targeting anyone, teaching anyone lessons, etc.
Of course not.
I was responding to the claim that this was a "failure on us."
I didn't have to hunt for them. Damn near 1 out of 10 streaks I had (before I stopped playing HG) was broken by a flying keg over last summer.
I did my part. My friends did their part. We PvPed the cheaters to the best of our abilities, sometimes winning, often times not. We reported, with confirmations from Rare, although I doubt that stopped them from creating new accounts moments after their bans.
Speaking about it in the forums & social media is as much as folks could do. And while you didn't find it entirely productive, the folks saying "anticheat when" was the most they were probably willing to do.
Beyond that, Rare needed to do more than act retroactively. And so a proactive approach was necessary.
Thankfully, they took the "road trip" to the big, fancy, dentist office, as you put it.
@theblackbellamy said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
Speaking about it in the forums & social media is as much as folks could do. And while you didn't find it entirely productive, the folks saying "anticheat when" was the most they were probably willing to do.
I think it's constructive when someone like you did your version of it. The only issue there is that someone like you will make a post once in a while and someone that will do it specifically to try to jab at Rare is going to dedicate their day to it. The constructive part of it gets pushed out of view.
That's why I often criticize how content creators (that involve themselves) approach issues. They have a reach that you don't. They involve themselves in a way that you don't, etc etc.
They have the power and podium to lead during these contentious issues. They personally benefit by being seen as leaders, there are many social perks when people look up to someone, when people are accepted as "pillars of the community". That creates a responsibility if not obligation to use that power responsibly and with peace and accuracy as priorities. Constructive criticism helps us all, fueling the fires harms everyone in the end.
One of the worst narratives being that reporting doesn't matter for cheating. That was incredibly irresponsible for people with power of audience to be putting out there, it was inaccurate and harmful.
Genuine and fair reporting is a major part of why anti-cheat even ended up here. That's useful data that they can use to determine necessary resources.
how can i play this game if it tell me this after today's patch? https://twitter.com/Streamerdefend2/status/1768321077153833183
@thedefender4311 said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
how can i play this game if it tell me this after today's patch? https://twitter.com/Streamerdefend2/status/1768321077153833183
I had to accept Steam making changes to something when I started up SoT, I assume it was to install EAC and give it access.
@thedefender4311 have you tried the steps in the support article?
@thedefender4311 said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
@d3adst1ck not working
If you followed the steps correctly, you should see an "EasyAntiCheat_EOS" folder in your Program Files (x86).
If that folder is missing, try going through the steps exactly as outlined in the Support article again.
If it's still missing, you could try downloading another game that uses the EOS version of EasyAntiCheat. AFAIK, the EOS version is the only one compatible with SteamDeck, so if a game uses EAC and is SteamDeck verified, I imagine it would also be installing that folder. So maybe Apex Legends or Dead By Daylight.
@realstyli there i come from if it isnt broking dont fix it why breaking if it was working 100% before?
@thedefender4311 well a game should work after you bought it you shouldnt have to do all these extra steps for it to work
@sammyr0cks said in On Easy Anti-Cheat - A Petition To The Community:
I noticed some chatter about EAC possibly getting hacked? Could just be talk, but did anyone else see anything about this?
It's more likely an issue with Apex having a remote code execution (RCE) exploit. If they haven't patched the engine (Source 1), it's likely that they have some as there were a few recent exploits like that.
For those wondering, here's the relevant news story from Eurogamer.
A comment from Anti-Cheat Police Department following EAC's post:
This means that the kernel anti cheat has nothing to do with the RCE and it was a source engine issue we suspect it may be similar to this [link to post investigating vulnerabilities in the Source Engine, April 2021]
So it may in fact be an RCE exploit of the Source Engine, and not EAC. Of course, that takes at face value what EAC claim.
EDIT
Epic Online Services have also commented on the matter:
@alienlazer Thank you for your heartfelt plea to Rare. You have captured the exact feelings I and many others in the community hold. The decision to implement Easy Anti-Cheat into Sea of Thieves is a grave mistake. Sea of Thieves is not a perfect game, but it is one dearly beloved. It is devastating to watch those who have done no wrong, be driven out of the game because they are not willing to compromise their own security. The community has been passionate about this game since the beginning, I hope this isn’t the final voyage.
If this is the end, I hope all the noble pirates who have made the seas a wonderful place, find their fortune in new waters.
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