Double Gunning really hasn't died and is alive and well. The last patch didn't fix it. Getting killed by people who jump and shoot have no skill. Can we please see sword and gun only and remove double gunning entirely? This needs to be fixed harder as obviously the last update wasn't enough to remove it as meta from the game. I personally have been switching over to other games because this mechanic is still extremely broken, and it's made even worse by hit reg close up being worse than before. Let double gunning die.
Double Gunning Still needing nerf
@mopwieldinghedgehog It's not patched. You can easily work around it. I've seen it been done using a gun - bucket - gun swap. It's not remotely fixed.
@eagerpilot65104 said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
@mopwieldinghedgehog said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
@palemantis6784 Patching quick swapping was about making sure the delay between shots was in line with what was intended, the intention was not to prevent players from using two guns/forcing players to use a sword.
Except it really wasn’t.
Patching quick swapping was supposed to be about making sure that GUN WIELD animations are unable to be skipped/canceled by briefly sprinting and then ads’ing.
As of right now you can still quick swap between two guns no problem if you don’t shoot one first. So what this means is that if I accidentally pull out my primary gun when I wanted to pull out my secondary gun I can still use the same method to bypass the wield animations for both guns which rapidly enables players to wield or swap weapons way faster than intended assuming they didn’t shoot one first.
The patch they added is based around only working after one gun was fired which means this solution only affected loadouts with two guns and not loadouts with sword + gun.
This means that pirates with a sword + gun can still bypass the wield animation for the one gun with the old brief sprint and aim method which means for sword + gun loadouts it’s not fixed.
We got a half baked fix.
Their intention was to fix the way a 2-gun-loadout animation cancellation could result in shooting 2 bullits too quick in succession; if switching sword-gun using animation cancellation also gives an advantage that needs to be fixed: put in a suppot ticket and/or start a topic - it certainly isn't part of fixing double-gunning (though they might need to check / alter the sameish code).
@eagerpilot65104 said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
It’s because the community doesn’t know what they are talking about.
It’s not fixing double gunning.
It has nothing to do with using two guns except for the fact that the exploit works best with two guns.
The exploit was always about skipping the gun wield animations.
I agree they should be fixing any animation cancellation that could result in an unfair benefit in PvP situations.
I think the most complaints were from people facing using this exploit wielding two guns. Someone at Rare decided to prioritise fixing that; fixing everything could have taken more time; hopefully it still is on some todo list.
I'm not going to say double gunning doesn't take any skill, and I think that argument is moot which ever way it's swung. But I do think double gunning needs adjustments, anyone is a fool if they think DG is equal to cutlass + gun. I also knew the quick swap nerf wasn't ever going to change the meta, because the meta was due to the advantages of DG, not a sub-1% playerbase quick swapping. Personally I want to play a pirate game, not Call of Pirates Duty (part of my stance on this is how gamey DG feels, if it was made a little more... authentic(?), then I think I might feel differently). And I wonder how many players use DG not because they like it, but because it's the best way to play.
The main issue with DG is its rapid stopping power at range (excluding quick swap), while it also gives the player better range versatility with sniper + blunder/pistol. So it's a double whammy of balance differences. Ironically DG is even better as hit-reg gets improved.
The shared ammo suggestion I've seen suggested many times also wouldn't work imo. First of all, the very good players are going to kill you (if hit-reg plays nice) before they'd run out of ammo (because you can't reactively dodge bullets, you can only proactively make yourself harder to hit (they have to miss you)), but the most important reason why it wouldn't work is players will shift even more to fight for the ammo box on the ship(s), and those on the ammo have infinite of the stuff, which again would negate the suggested nerf.
As for suggestions? I would say a soft-rework of gun/swordplay would be the only satisfying fix. And rather than switching between weapons, you'd only have "one" weapon, choosing to pick from the following:
Left hand Sword + Right Hand Pistol (reduce pistol damage)
Two hand Sniper
Two Hand BlunderbussAnd opening up possibilities for:
Buckler + Sword
Dual Knives/Daggers
Dual Pistol
Sword + Handheld Blunderbuss@sandfeld2004 that's not entirely true though is it. The cutlass is very basic to use but to actually use it fluidly in combat takes some practice, just like double gun also. I see many double gunners swap to sword and then cannot compete because they don't know the finer details of its usage. In the same way if I ever swap to double gun, a competent double gunner will always outclass me.
@a10dr4651
The skill cap on double gun is still severely higher and much more rewarding, but I agree that you can "master" the cutlass.this is getting so lame rn, poeple wanna hold w and spam mouse1 and be in a fair fight against someone pressing inf more inputs/having to aim/having to manage reloading?
you have no idea how hard it is to hit a sprintstrafing player, instead u stand on your vessel and walk towards the DG in a direct line and wonder why you always loose? there are so many cracked swordplayers out there which are perfectly fine with the meta.
lets talk about the advantages of the sword for once? swordusers are still able to quickswap, a real old quickswap, not a nerfed new one! i image you cant be bothered to even understand how it works, but mimimi nerf DG again pls rare. u can swordhop thru a pirate, like not around him, or to the side oh him, u can magically just hop right thru his hitbox and be behind him. you can swordlunge from one vessel to the other for no obv reason with a mechanic that wasnt intended to be in the game afaik, and then you are able to slide thru the water like a dolhpin clearing like 40m in 2 seconds.
but im sure most DG complainers dont know or do none of this cause they cant be bothered, its just mimimi i always loose to toxic DG pls nerf rare.
@sandfeld2004 The skill of double gunning is basically having good aim, something that you can acquire by playing other games, in fact good aim always comes from experience in other games, the skill with the sword is exclusive to SOT, you need to learn and improve.
A good part of the people who use double gun don't even care about the game itself, they like combat with two weapons and nothing else, proof of this is that parallel games with only double gunning combat were created and are used by these people. Especially those who do TDM, including in the hourglass, trying to board infinitely, completely deviating from the naval battle proposal Not that this is an argument to take her out of the game, but it does show that this tends to attract players who don't even care about the game.
Double Gun was clearly not designed intentionally from the beginning, regardless of what anyone says, it is simply inconceivable that a developer would have tested double gun in the early days of SOT when there was no delay when switching weapons, giving a practically instant death when firing twice. and thought this was valid for the game.
In my opinion, the style of play does not fit with the pirate theme, naval combat would be infinitely more valued without players trying to jump incessantly to spawnkill with a double gun and pvp would be more fun.
@locke5474677
The issue with your post is is seems like you're trying to establish this idea that anyone critiquing DG is a "M1 Sword Andy", and anyone who is DG deserves to win because they apparently press more buttons? What kind of logic is that? For a start, games that allow one method to have a higher skill ceiling than another is not healthy (or balanced) for that game.
Imagine if method X allows a player to a input x5 effort to get a maximum of x3 the effectiveness. Meanwhile Method Y allows a player to put x5 effort in, and no matter how much effort they put into the game, they are capped at x2.5 the effectiveness. And most players may sit around x1-x1.5 effort/effectiveness, which gives the illusion that swords are balanced because you can put in x2 the effort to beat THOSE players. That does not invalidate the critique that one method is better than another.A DG player has the opportunity to kill another player before they even get to close distance or even time to eat, while no matter how hard a sword player tries, they can't "throw" their sword at you without the huge weakness of standing still and the inability to cancel the action in many places, all for less damage than the pistol might I add. My point is there is a huge weakness to the lunge. It would be like being required to stand still to reload, but worse because you have to "pre-load". Generally the best ways to use lunges is around corners, and getting the timing right to hit them before they get to react is harder than aiming and shooting a gun imo. But I digress.
Even excluding the skill ceiling argument, DGing is just better at the same level, albeit I would say DG has a skill floor requirement, where as it's easier to "aim" the sword as long as that player is allowed to close the distance. However, anyone who's played any FPS games semi-seriously are going to meet that skill floor with relative ease, lets not pretend people have never played an FPS game before SoT.
Additionally, sword-jump lunging is really hit and miss depending on your latency to the server (and it can be pretty bad often), there is also the fact that if you use a sword-jump lunge in combat and you miss, you are probably dead, what happens if you miss with a gun? Well you hop around like a bunny to reload which is what 99% of players do because their aim isn't perfect.
And I think if you're making the argument that people don't know how to do sword technical stuff (Like interrupting lunges by interacting with objects, or hopping through players and turning 180) while DG do know how to do technical stuff, then you're comparing apples to oranges are you not?So lets also talk about sword "advantages" and alternatives;
-Did you know you can launch yourself from the ladder of a ship? Much further than any sword lunge could, which means the sword lunge is obsolete in cases going from one vessel to another.
-Did you know you can also launch yourself from the cannon? xD
-Did you know that DG players can run away from a sword user? Shocking I know.
-Did you know you can 1 blunder someone instantly (which gets better as hit-reg improves), while sword requires 4 swings (4 seconds plus change) to kill someone (or 2 swings + a gun shot)?
-Did you know that sword performs worse on larger vessels?
-Did you know every vessel has choke points where it's much easier to hit players with shots?Like I said, DG is absolutely the best method despite the quick swap nerf. Trying to argue otherwise is disingenuous when I think I can safely bet that you're not using sword + gun for PvP. Right? If sword was as good as you're trying to sell it, then you'd probably ditch DG and go sword + gun. You even said it yourself that sniper/blunder is the best; of which you dismantled your own argument with that statement.
I'm just not sure what you're trying to argue when you said that tbh. That it's hard to aim? Please. It may be hard to aim, but it's impossible to be impervious to 125%-170% of bullet damage from two guns.And I also said DG doesn't not take skill, but to suggest that "DG takes skill and everyone playing sword just sucks" isn't a valid argument. That's some World of Roguecraft level logic.
@lleorb
In reality, you don't just acquire good aim from playing other games; most people do not develop, no matter the hours across FPS games. I honestly cant find the problem in double gunning, especially with the nerf quickswap.I have found very few cases of "tdm seekers" in HG, which really isn't a problem. Good naval fights will include sniper and blunder, especially sniper. DG is a important part of the game within PvP.
@sandfeld2004 What do you mean you don't get good aim by playing other games?
There is nothing exclusive about the aiming mode in SOT that makes you have to relearn how to aim and shoot, any FPS player will do well with double gun in SOT... and that's not even a guess, I saw beginner players killing the others easily even without any idea of the game just because they aimed well.
TDM players are obviously the minority, but they are still a considerable portion of DG players, remembering that not all of them seek TDM in the hourglass.
From my experience in hourglass and in the game in general, Double gun players don't know naval combat, at least most of them, my perception is that sword players tend to learn naval combat better while double guns stay stagnant at the same level of naval combat. regardless of hours of play. The reason for this is probably the fact that DG players want to board most of the time and don't practice naval, while sword players have more contact with this combat even in PVE. So, as I said before, removing the DG would enhance naval combat, which should be the focus of the game.
@palemantis6784 said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
Double Gunning really hasn't died and is alive and well. The last patch didn't fix it. Getting killed by people who jump and shoot have no skill. Can we please see sword and gun only and remove double gunning entirely? This needs to be fixed harder as obviously the last update wasn't enough to remove it as meta from the game. I personally have been switching over to other games because this mechanic is still extremely broken, and it's made even worse by hit reg close up being worse than before. Let double gunning die.
Ok so I DG on controller and it is TRASH right now but I still prefer it if I’m boarding. Sooooo many glitches are happening with DG currently that make it a pain, so much so some streamers have gone to sword EOR.
Demanding that I use what you want me to use is not the answer either.
I personally adjust my load out on what I am doing. Need mobility and unlimited ammo? Grab a sword and firearm that matches that need. Gonna be in the water and fighting at distance? EOR and flintlock are great here for the distance.If you run the cutlass all the time and don’t switch up your weapons and load out based on the current situation then that’s on you. DG takes quite a bit of skill to use effectively.
Don’t believe me? Try it for 8 hours, no seriously go DG in HG or just fight in adventure and see how “easily” you kill pirates. I’ll be awaiting your report sir
Don’t believe me? Try it for 8 hours, no seriously go DG in HG or just fight in adventure and see how “easily” you kill pirates. I’ll be awaiting your report sir
I did this, it was easier. Defending the ship is so much easier to do with the Blunder/EoR. I sometimes double gun when I have a lower skilled player with me in HG to make up for the shortfall (its rare I do it though). I just don't use for 99% of my time because I don't like it and don't like to follow the meta. If someone was on the ship while I double gunned (DG vs DG) I'd still lose against decent DG'ers but I had greater flexability initially due to being able to hold a long range and a short range insta kill weapon. I play a Pirate game so sword/pistol is my go to and it's just good as an all rounder loadout.
Double gun still unfairly gets a bad rap overall when its the blunderbuss most have the problem with. I'd be pretty confident if the Blunderbuss was reworked to not deal 100% damage, had a tighter spread closer to how real shotguns are so aim was more important and all pellets generally hit the target causing full knockback it would be complained about less and have a function i.e clearing people off the deck or ladders. Time will only tell though with what direction weapon balancing goes in, a precedent has already been set with the removal of some animation cancelling.
I think everyone is getting caught up in what is harder to learn when we need to realize that skill will win out regardless more often than not. I see plenty of sword players on the forums getting worked up about not killing DB gunners when they don't even know about sword hopping, and vice versa DB gunners not understanding that they need to keep their distance rather than relying on an easy blunder. Both strats have their nuances and the player who understands that better will have a bigger advantage. Also, I have no clue why people have decided that spamboarding is counter-intuitive to naval combat. I should preface this by saying I am a DB gunner with a lot of solo sloop experience and its often the only way to keep new players from running off. I'm not going to take it upon myself to not play to my advantage because other players don't understand how to guard ladders. I can understand If someone refuses to naval but I think it might be important to realize that they might be doing that because you are A. turning out early B. You don't know how to hold an angle. Boarders are a part of naval combat same as cannons and understanding how to combat them shouldn't be seen as unnecessary.
@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
So, as I said before, removing the DG would enhance naval combat, which should be the focus of the game
Naval pressure has always been the way to win competitive fights just like it's the only chance most players have in this game against people that lean more into boarding.
Hg already massively increased naval skill and lead people into focusing on the fundamentals of combat.
People want to force naval but that isn't gonna help the majority of players in this game. The skill gap is too wide. People are gonna get even more wrecked as combat leans more into naval.
"They are cheating they hit so many cannonballs"
Nope, when fighters lean into naval they get really really good at it and it's becomes near impossible for underdogs in random organic adventure combat against pvpers.
The best thing about double gun/board spam/ tdm popularity is it left an opening for underdogs to win sometimes with naval. That's pretty much gone now already but leaning into it even more won't be any more pleasant.
People that are against double gunning and boarding 100% worsened their own combat chances because they get fired up about being camped. Most people in this game will never have a chance to compete by creating what they are creating in this game by trying to push people into more naval over not liking a loss to camping.
@wolfmanbush Your argument for not encouraging naval is that people would get good at it?
For me this would be ideal, people being good at something that involves understanding the game, and winning their fights because of that, not because they have the ability to invade a ship and kill everyone with good aim.
The best thing about double gun/board spam/ tdm popularity is it left an opening for underdogs to win sometimes with naval. That's pretty much gone now already but leaning into it even more won't be any more pleasant.
This doesn't happen in practice, unless your team is really good at naval, even if you and your team are more skilled than your opponents at naval, all it takes is a double gun with perfect aim to board and you all die, that's it, which usually happens. I even remember a situation in which my crew, even without calling and with one or two randoms, suppressed the opponent throughout the naval, they realized this and started boarding incessantly until they killed everyone and sunk us. Battles shouldn't be decided by the board, naval skill has to be encouraged, learn the game and be good because of it.
To understand the imbalance of this, if you take two galleons, one with a complete average team, and one with 2 players, one a complete beginner and the other a double gun TDM... the result of this battle will MOST PROBABLY be the galleon with 2 players winning because of a single DG spawnkilling the opposing crew, that doesn't make any sense.
@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
Battles shouldn't be decided by the board, naval skill has to be encouraged, learn the game and be good because of it.
Same could be said about defending from boards and double gun players etc etc
This is coming from someone that's entirely naval and has been for years and loses most of my fights if I get boarded by skilled players.
I find with boarding it's more down to the splash sound not providing the correct balancing que. I think silent board still exists is some way shape or form. I had someone board me the other day, no splash or anything and with a blunder to the back of the head I was done. This outcome shouldn't happen. Naval still overall reins supreme but if TDM'ers get on the ship it then becomes very one sided.
@wolfmanbush It's easy to get around the board in solo or duo sloops, in galleon and brig it's not, especially in the middle of a battle or with two players trying to board at the same time.
And that doesn't solve the problem, players winning by having good aim despite any notion of the game. As i said
To understand the imbalance of this, if you take two galleons, one with a complete average team, and one with 2 players, one a complete beginner and the other a double gun TDM... the result of this battle will MOST PROBABLY be the galleon with 2 players winning because of a single DG spawnkilling the opposing crew, that doesn't make any sense.
This kind of thing just shouldn't happen
@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
@wolfmanbush It's easy to get around the board in solo or duo sloops, in galleon and brig it's not, especially in the middle of a battle or with two players trying to board at the same time.
And that doesn't solve the problem, players winning by having good aim despite any notion of the game. As i said
To understand the imbalance of this, if you take two galleons, one with a complete average team, and one with 2 players, one a complete beginner and the other a double gun TDM... the result of this battle will MOST PROBABLY be the galleon with 2 players winning because of a single DG spawnkilling the opposing crew, that doesn't make any sense.
This kind of thing just shouldn't happen
I'm terrible at tdm, I never had any interest in it so I refuse to invest in it. It's not an enjoyable way for me to play. Should I be pushed into it? of course not, I should have the opportunity to do what I did which is strategy/environmental experience, and naval.
No different for other players, if they enjoy boarding then it's fair play.
Trying to force people into a style goes against the spirit of a sandbox.
@wolfmanbush Removing DG would be an incentive to the naval, not a requirement, a sword player could continue boarding if they wanted, it would just be less effective than with a fight at the same distance.
I see this as the ideal scenario, for things like the one I mentioned are not the rule but the exception.It stops being a valid option when it creates distortions like the one I said, which is why it should be removed. The freedom of a sandbox should not override the proper functioning and balance of the game.
@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
@wolfmanbush Removing DG would be an incentive to the naval, not a requirement, a sword player could continue boarding if they wanted, it would just be less effective than with a fight at the same distance.
I see this as the ideal scenario, for things like the one I mentioned are not the rule but the exception.It stops being a valid option when it creates distortions like the one I said, which is why it should be removed. The freedom of a sandbox should not override the proper functioning and balance of the game.
Removing isn't an incentive in this context it's a punishment
Adding something is an incentive. Something appealing that makes people want to naval organically.
@wolfmanbush By this logic, removing the quick change was also punishment.
You might say that QS wasn't intended but given how the double gun was launched and the need to insert a delay later I can say that DG wasn't intended either, it was just adapted for balancing purposes, what I'm pointing out is that even so It didn't work, it's unbalanced.
And it is an incentive for the naval force, an incentive can be positive or negative.
@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
@wolfmanbush By this logic, removing the quick change was also punishment.
You might say that QS wasn't intended but given how the double gun was launched and the need to insert a delay later I can say that DG wasn't intended either, it was just adapted for balancing purposes, what I'm pointing out is that even so It didn't work, it's unbalanced.
And it is an incentive for the naval force, an incentive can be positive or negative.
They decided it wasn't intended within the style, not anything against the style as a whole.
These things aren't really complex it's just a matter of principle. It's a sandbox where freedom of play is a priority and a part of the foundation.
People try to nerf each other based on preferences constantly and it just erodes the point of playing this game.
@wolfmanbush Well, I'm not going to insist on the point, but I'll make it clear that it's not just a "nerf that I don't like", There are several things I don't like about the game, such as the speed of ships being standardized by category, which makes a sloop against the wind impossible to catch, but I don't see that as something that ruins it, DG doesn't, it really is. something that affects much more than a momentary disadvantage between X1, it creates distortions and imbalances, attracts players who don't care about the game, mitigates the use of aimbot and other things...
@a10dr4651 said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:
Don’t believe me? Try it for 8 hours, no seriously go DG in HG or just fight in adventure and see how “easily” you kill pirates. I’ll be awaiting your report sir
I did this, it was easier. Defending the ship is so much easier to do with the Blunder/EoR. I sometimes double gun when I have a lower skilled player with me in HG to make up for the shortfall (its rare I do it though). I just don't use for 99% of my time because I don't like it and don't like to follow the meta. If someone was on the ship while I double gunned (DG vs DG) I'd still lose against decent DG'ers but I had greater flexability initially due to being able to hold a long range and a short range insta kill weapon. I play a Pirate game so sword/pistol is my go to and it's just good as an all rounder loadout.
Double gun still unfairly gets a bad rap overall when its the blunderbuss most have the problem with. I'd be pretty confident if the Blunderbuss was reworked to not deal 100% damage, had a tighter spread closer to how real shotguns are so aim was more important and all pellets generally hit the target causing full knockback it would be complained about less and have a function i.e clearing people off the deck or ladders. Time will only tell though with what direction weapon balancing goes in, a precedent has already been set with the removal of some animation cancelling.
Bro
They just BUFFED sooooo much of the sword and I’d love to play with you sometime so I can see how you just Wreck People with DG. The sword storm is REAL, the reach of the sword is UNREAL, and spamming M1 or RT seems super complicated. They have already broken DG so badly what more would you like to see?
There is a video on YouTube of a player demonstrating DG with standing still. The player shoots the pirate with EOR and as soon as the hit registers the pirate eats a pineapple and the player simply switches to a blunder and is able to kill the pirate before the pineapple registers.
So WITHOUT a quick swap DG still kills before food can register… yet that quick switch is such a problem…..?
DPS is NOT a thing in this game. Honestly I’m less salty about dying vs having 2-4 players just schwing schwinging away with no skill while I get sword suck back and then stormed, you’re absolutely right the dg is a HUGE PROBLEM in this game.
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