Since this is starting to devolve in to bickering and personal attacks rather than a discussion, I will drop anchor here.

@whynotagsleftMs

i can get behind some of your comments, but its just random estimations on your side, i dont know if the DG ceiling is higher than the sword ceiling. and i am like superpositive that a DG loadout user is a more talented gamer on average than a sword user, just because of its mechanic.

some of your arguments are just pointless, i cannot cannon myself from the back of my boat, while a swordplayer can lunge. its just pettiness and lack of skill complaining about DGs at this point. there is no airstrafing in SOT, if you are not capable to predict where a jumping player is landing its on you.

i would consider myself an okish DGer, certainly not a good one, if a decent swordplayer can dodge shots im loosing a 1v1 mostly. there is nothing to complain about, learn to dodge shots and you´ll be fine. stop killing the game for small part of the community that love DG.

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

@wolfmanbush I don't mean to say that every DG player doesn't care about the game, but this style of play attracts a type of person who doesn't care about any other aspect of the game other than PVP or often just DG combat, like those who I mentioned that in the hourglass they only want TDM, not even progressing in the hourglass is an issue for them. I know people like that. A parallel game that copies double gun combat came about exactly to give these people what they are really looking for in SOT.

Not every double gun uses a cheat, but the style itself is intrinsically linked to the aimbot, it doesn't make sense for a cheater to use a sword, so what I said is true, and a removal of DG would probably reduce the use of cheats.

Dear admin, I apologize and this is t an attack on him, just merely an example….

Ok so let’s ban DG as we don’t care about the community and are the cheaters….. proof?

Maybe we should ban the sword players so I can stop reading about PVE SERVERS EVERY 10 seconds!!!!
And maybe I won’t hear how insert toxic thing here happened because of nasty dg’ers that just ruin the game.

Let’s look at some real facts
Yesterday I helped a player get PL after I made my LFG “Experienced pirate will to help new players with anything”
ABSOLUTELY seems like I hate this community!!!
I’ve helped others on this forum in HG multiple times…..
Yup definitely a piece of work over here

So in short please stop running your mouth about things you don’t know…
That’d be a great start! I’ve been playing since 4/1/18 and I care greatly about this community and game.

The majority of cheater we run into we talk to…… and most of the time they end up being newer players that just enjoy ruining peoples days.

Why would a player like me risk EVERYTHING I’ve worked towards to have a cheat? It’d cost me everything…

I play on Xbox and controller, VERY hard to cheat here, possible yes, expensive and hard. I don’t do it. I was sank multiple times yesterday and tossed up the GG or well played, such a toxic player I am

I switched to dg in S8 HG. I used it to learn how, now it’s my preferred boarder load out. If you read my last post you’d also know that I switch up the load out depending on scenario and the needs of such. If you lock yoursf into a cutlass 24/7 that’s on you, it’d be like just shooting blunderbombs at a ship tho and wondering why it isn’t sinking…. Right tools for the job man. I’m sorry YOUR proffered style is cutlass only, why should that force me into it? THAT seems toxic.
Let’s dictate how other should play based on MY opinion… again kinda toxic

In short lose the attitude, stop making statements based on anecdotal encounters, and stop trying to force others to play how you want them to.

Ps also seen plenty of cheaters teleporting around with kegs using the sword, so I’d say the sword lends itself to this cheat #BanSwords=BanCheaters

@lleorb said:

These people like a small spectrum of the game, PVP, and if they stop enjoying PVP they simply stop playing... It's no wonder that there is a copy of SOT just to satisfy the desire for infinite double gun

Lol so why isn't every double gunner in SoT on PFS right now? I mean clearly, there's a double gun haven over there. With better hitreg, mind you. You'd think that if double gunning was all those players cared about, there would be no double gunners left in SoT. But that's obviously not the case.

Folks who don't care, or eventually got fed up, are playing other things. The ones who stuck around, even despite the patches to animation canceling, are playing because they enjoy SoT, narrow as their interests within SoT may be.

Would more folks jump ship if Rare restricted weapon choice? Of course. But there are others who would adapt again, and continue to server hop and play hourglass.

@theblackbellamy These people like a small spectrum of the game, PVP, and if they stop enjoying PVP they simply stop playing.

Like I said, I know people like that, who have never made a tall tale, who don't know how to complete events efficiently, even though they have many hours of play and are hardcore PVP players.

And it is intrinsically linked to DG because the very moment the double gun is removed, with everything else from the PVP aspect intact, these people would stop playing. I know people like this, and who have already said this.
(It's no wonder that there is a copy of SOT just to satisfy the desire for infinite double gun)

@lleorb said:

We don't even need to talk about TDM... just the narrow pvp aspect intrinsically related to DG... Server Hop and hourglass... It's in this sense that I say they don't care about the game.

I would think that if they really didn't care, they wouldn't even be doing hourglass or server hopping. They'd spend their time on other games. I didn't think either of those were "intrinsically" related to double gunning either. Two-tapping enough sword lords, who hopped for my loot stacks in the past, kinda made me think otherwise.

There's no double-gunner monolith.

@wolfmanbush We don't even need to talk about TDM so, if they removed the double gunn, how many players do you think would stop playing SOT?

I say MANY, as they don't like most of the game's content, just the narrow pvp aspect intrinsically related to DG... TDM, Server Hop and hourglass.

It's in this sense that I say they don't care about the game.

@jon-sea-nah What buff did the sword receive in the latest updates? As far as I know the damage was not increased and in fact they nerfed the potential of the sword when they made it more precise, the sword reached further and a larger area before.

The only "buff" swords received is that the defense works properly, but against double guns this doesn't even work, so what buff are we talking about?

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

A parallel game that copies double gun combat came about exactly to give these people what they are really looking for in SOT.

Not really.

I disagree with extreme pvpers and pvers a lot on some things but something the majority share is the love for random adventure.

We don't all see things the same way, want the same things, play in the same ways, but the majority loves randomness of adventure with player encounters.

You are focusing on some of tdm which is a small part of double gunning and a tiny part of pvp.

The sweatiest of double gun pvpers can and often do enjoy the randomness of adventure pvp.

@jon-sea-nah hehe schwing schwing

@wolfmanbush I don't mean to say that every DG player doesn't care about the game, but this style of play attracts a type of person who doesn't care about any other aspect of the game other than PVP or often just DG combat, like those who I mentioned that in the hourglass they only want TDM, not even progressing in the hourglass is an issue for them. I know people like that. A parallel game that copies double gun combat came about exactly to give these people what they are really looking for in SOT.

Not every double gun uses a cheat, but the style itself is intrinsically linked to the aimbot, it doesn't make sense for a cheater to use a sword, so what I said is true, and a removal of DG would probably reduce the use of cheats.

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

@wolfmanbush
attracts players who don't care about the game, mitigates the use of aimbot and other things...

There are a lot of people in this game that use two guns that care about the game and the community and the environment.

Some people fighting on social media and cheating in HG doesn't have anything to do the character of people that wanna play the game how they enjoy it.

@a10dr4651 said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

@jon-sea-nah

Don’t believe me? Try it for 8 hours, no seriously go DG in HG or just fight in adventure and see how “easily” you kill pirates. I’ll be awaiting your report sir

I did this, it was easier. Defending the ship is so much easier to do with the Blunder/EoR. I sometimes double gun when I have a lower skilled player with me in HG to make up for the shortfall (its rare I do it though). I just don't use for 99% of my time because I don't like it and don't like to follow the meta. If someone was on the ship while I double gunned (DG vs DG) I'd still lose against decent DG'ers but I had greater flexability initially due to being able to hold a long range and a short range insta kill weapon. I play a Pirate game so sword/pistol is my go to and it's just good as an all rounder loadout.

Double gun still unfairly gets a bad rap overall when its the blunderbuss most have the problem with. I'd be pretty confident if the Blunderbuss was reworked to not deal 100% damage, had a tighter spread closer to how real shotguns are so aim was more important and all pellets generally hit the target causing full knockback it would be complained about less and have a function i.e clearing people off the deck or ladders. Time will only tell though with what direction weapon balancing goes in, a precedent has already been set with the removal of some animation cancelling.

Bro

They just BUFFED sooooo much of the sword and I’d love to play with you sometime so I can see how you just Wreck People with DG. The sword storm is REAL, the reach of the sword is UNREAL, and spamming M1 or RT seems super complicated. They have already broken DG so badly what more would you like to see?

There is a video on YouTube of a player demonstrating DG with standing still. The player shoots the pirate with EOR and as soon as the hit registers the pirate eats a pineapple and the player simply switches to a blunder and is able to kill the pirate before the pineapple registers.

So WITHOUT a quick swap DG still kills before food can register… yet that quick switch is such a problem…..?

DPS is NOT a thing in this game. Honestly I’m less salty about dying vs having 2-4 players just schwing schwinging away with no skill while I get sword suck back and then stormed, you’re absolutely right the dg is a HUGE PROBLEM in this game.

@wolfmanbush Well, I'm not going to insist on the point, but I'll make it clear that it's not just a "nerf that I don't like", There are several things I don't like about the game, such as the speed of ships being standardized by category, which makes a sloop against the wind impossible to catch, but I don't see that as something that ruins it, DG doesn't, it really is. something that affects much more than a momentary disadvantage between X1, it creates distortions and imbalances, attracts players who don't care about the game, mitigates the use of aimbot and other things...

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

@wolfmanbush By this logic, removing the quick change was also punishment.

You might say that QS wasn't intended but given how the double gun was launched and the need to insert a delay later I can say that DG wasn't intended either, it was just adapted for balancing purposes, what I'm pointing out is that even so It didn't work, it's unbalanced.

And it is an incentive for the naval force, an incentive can be positive or negative.

They decided it wasn't intended within the style, not anything against the style as a whole.

These things aren't really complex it's just a matter of principle. It's a sandbox where freedom of play is a priority and a part of the foundation.

People try to nerf each other based on preferences constantly and it just erodes the point of playing this game.

@wolfmanbush By this logic, removing the quick change was also punishment.

You might say that QS wasn't intended but given how the double gun was launched and the need to insert a delay later I can say that DG wasn't intended either, it was just adapted for balancing purposes, what I'm pointing out is that even so It didn't work, it's unbalanced.

And it is an incentive for the naval force, an incentive can be positive or negative.

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

@wolfmanbush Removing DG would be an incentive to the naval, not a requirement, a sword player could continue boarding if they wanted, it would just be less effective than with a fight at the same distance.
I see this as the ideal scenario, for things like the one I mentioned are not the rule but the exception.

It stops being a valid option when it creates distortions like the one I said, which is why it should be removed. The freedom of a sandbox should not override the proper functioning and balance of the game.

Removing isn't an incentive in this context it's a punishment

Adding something is an incentive. Something appealing that makes people want to naval organically.

@wolfmanbush Removing DG would be an incentive to the naval, not a requirement, a sword player could continue boarding if they wanted, it would just be less effective than with a fight at the same distance.
I see this as the ideal scenario, for things like the one I mentioned are not the rule but the exception.

It stops being a valid option when it creates distortions like the one I said, which is why it should be removed. The freedom of a sandbox should not override the proper functioning and balance of the game.

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

@wolfmanbush It's easy to get around the board in solo or duo sloops, in galleon and brig it's not, especially in the middle of a battle or with two players trying to board at the same time.

And that doesn't solve the problem, players winning by having good aim despite any notion of the game. As i said

To understand the imbalance of this, if you take two galleons, one with a complete average team, and one with 2 players, one a complete beginner and the other a double gun TDM... the result of this battle will MOST PROBABLY be the galleon with 2 players winning because of a single DG spawnkilling the opposing crew, that doesn't make any sense.

This kind of thing just shouldn't happen

I'm terrible at tdm, I never had any interest in it so I refuse to invest in it. It's not an enjoyable way for me to play. Should I be pushed into it? of course not, I should have the opportunity to do what I did which is strategy/environmental experience, and naval.

No different for other players, if they enjoy boarding then it's fair play.

Trying to force people into a style goes against the spirit of a sandbox.

@wolfmanbush It's easy to get around the board in solo or duo sloops, in galleon and brig it's not, especially in the middle of a battle or with two players trying to board at the same time.

And that doesn't solve the problem, players winning by having good aim despite any notion of the game. As i said

To understand the imbalance of this, if you take two galleons, one with a complete average team, and one with 2 players, one a complete beginner and the other a double gun TDM... the result of this battle will MOST PROBABLY be the galleon with 2 players winning because of a single DG spawnkilling the opposing crew, that doesn't make any sense.

This kind of thing just shouldn't happen

I find with boarding it's more down to the splash sound not providing the correct balancing que. I think silent board still exists is some way shape or form. I had someone board me the other day, no splash or anything and with a blunder to the back of the head I was done. This outcome shouldn't happen. Naval still overall reins supreme but if TDM'ers get on the ship it then becomes very one sided.

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

Battles shouldn't be decided by the board, naval skill has to be encouraged, learn the game and be good because of it.

Same could be said about defending from boards and double gun players etc etc

This is coming from someone that's entirely naval and has been for years and loses most of my fights if I get boarded by skilled players.

@wolfmanbush Your argument for not encouraging naval is that people would get good at it?

For me this would be ideal, people being good at something that involves understanding the game, and winning their fights because of that, not because they have the ability to invade a ship and kill everyone with good aim.

The best thing about double gun/board spam/ tdm popularity is it left an opening for underdogs to win sometimes with naval. That's pretty much gone now already but leaning into it even more won't be any more pleasant.

This doesn't happen in practice, unless your team is really good at naval, even if you and your team are more skilled than your opponents at naval, all it takes is a double gun with perfect aim to board and you all die, that's it, which usually happens. I even remember a situation in which my crew, even without calling and with one or two randoms, suppressed the opponent throughout the naval, they realized this and started boarding incessantly until they killed everyone and sunk us. Battles shouldn't be decided by the board, naval skill has to be encouraged, learn the game and be good because of it.

To understand the imbalance of this, if you take two galleons, one with a complete average team, and one with 2 players, one a complete beginner and the other a double gun TDM... the result of this battle will MOST PROBABLY be the galleon with 2 players winning because of a single DG spawnkilling the opposing crew, that doesn't make any sense.

@lleorb said in Double Gunning Still needing nerf:

So, as I said before, removing the DG would enhance naval combat, which should be the focus of the game

Naval pressure has always been the way to win competitive fights just like it's the only chance most players have in this game against people that lean more into boarding.

Hg already massively increased naval skill and lead people into focusing on the fundamentals of combat.

People want to force naval but that isn't gonna help the majority of players in this game. The skill gap is too wide. People are gonna get even more wrecked as combat leans more into naval.

"They are cheating they hit so many cannonballs"

Nope, when fighters lean into naval they get really really good at it and it's becomes near impossible for underdogs in random organic adventure combat against pvpers.

The best thing about double gun/board spam/ tdm popularity is it left an opening for underdogs to win sometimes with naval. That's pretty much gone now already but leaning into it even more won't be any more pleasant.

People that are against double gunning and boarding 100% worsened their own combat chances because they get fired up about being camped. Most people in this game will never have a chance to compete by creating what they are creating in this game by trying to push people into more naval over not liking a loss to camping.