Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas

  • OK, this was a bit painful extracting this data (I have it all in excel for any other nerds interested), but it was quite revealing. These numbers are based on what we know/assume today.

    I separated Hourglass as well as the Non-Instanced Tall Tales since those are kind of in their own bubble...and I left Instanced TTs and the Maiden Voyage out altogether.

    _

    • Safer Seas: 409 commendations, 232 different doubloon rewards, 97 titles, and 99 different cosmetic unlocks.

    • High Seas: 193 commendations, 60 different doubloon rewards, 30 titles, and 42 different cosmetic unlocks.

    • Hourglass: 78 commendations, 22 titles, and 67 different cosmetic unlocks.

    • Non-Instanced Tall Tales: 117 commendations, 2 titles, and 30 different cosmetic unlocks.

    _

    Now, onto the concern...

    My concern with enabling as many commendations as there have been eluded to for Safer Seas is that you're going to be enabling hundreds - if not thousands - of hours worth of content for people to go after while removing themselves from the shared world adventure.

    For every "chill" player that will move over to Safer Seas to commendation farm, that will mathematically make the new High Seas a more hostile place than the seas we play on today.

    How many less "non-hostile" encounters will there be after Safer Seas are introduced? How many less fun "goof around" encounters will there be? How many less chances will there be for veterans to show a new player the ropes and go on an adventure? How many team-ups of two chill Gold Hoarders will there be against a common foe? How many less times will an adorner of the Gold Curse get to help a fellow Tall Taler? The list of "non-hostile" encounter varieties could go on and on...

    Safer Seas has the potential to drastically change the shared world environment we all grew to love (or hate)...but will it be for better or worse?

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  • @sweetsandman

    Taking your numbers at face value but most people don't farm commendations, certainly not people that are going to be most excited to play in Safer Seas. Most of these folks just want to complete a Voyage, puzzle a riddle, find an x on map and deliver a pig without being forced into combat. The hardcores need to stop framing the way they play as the way everyone wants to play to begin to understand. Commendations will be a byproduct to most of these people, not the reason to play. Of course there will absolutely be some people min/maxing Safer Seas, just the same as if there was a 5 Billion Gold cosmetic in the store it would be purchased within days by someone. Some people just do this kind of stuff but they are a decided minority and certainly not the type of player to make the broadest design decisions around.

    For those that might chase commendations down in Safer Seas, they are generally from the family of ones casual players probably largely get now, right (minutes in a storm! etc)?
    Quantity vs. Quality is a big factor, especially for anyone actually paying attention to such things.

    Also there is this weird belief that someone is going to go into SS, cheese everything (no matter the punishing pace) and then drop into HS flexing their rewards?

    Really?

  • I think newer players have a very different social environment than many of us have had.

    The middle has been gone for years at this point. People are cliquey in this game, a lot of the long term play is linked to social areas. I can't remember the last time I truly met someone similar to me in how I approach this game on the veteran side of things and I have massive amounts of encounters.

    I just have too much strictly organic experience in a way that is encounter focused far more than pvp focused to put much stock in "this will change our game for the worse" type of narratives around the community.

    My extreme but pretty unique style is steadily being phased out (at no fault to anyone) and even I don't see any of this as "for the worst" or damaging.

    It's just not been that great for people that don't fall into social cliques and meta gaming, I know that just too dang well and it has been why I've talked about it for years.

    I think everyone that stays will be fine, I think this will work out, I just think some of us are approaching the end of our stories here. It's all gonna be alright for SoT overall imo.

  • @merlin-mav-k said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    Taking your numbers at face value but most people don't farm commendations, certainly not people that are going to be most excited to play in Safer Seas. Most of these folks just want to complete a Voyage, puzzle a riddle, find an x on map and deliver a pig without being forced into combat. The hardcores need to stop framing the way they play as the way everyone wants to play to begin to understand. Commendations will be a byproduct to most of these people, not the reason to play.

    You're missing my point. I don't care if they want to cheese things...I care about the impact that enabling it has on the shared world environment.

    The min/maxers and the chill voyagers are one in the same in that they don't want hostile encounters...just at different degrees of engagement.

    Mathematically, for every chill player that just wants to "complete a Voyage, puzzle a riddle, find an x on map and deliver a pig without being forced into combat" who removes themselves from the shared world...that's one less chill player to encounter. That's one less player to have a laugh with. That's one less player who is not hostile.

    While some people are definitely concerned about the cheese and "flexing" cosmetics...I'm not concerned with that at all. I'm concerned that the High Seas are basically going to have the feeling of Arena 1.0...and the Seas we know today - the seas that are like a box of chocolates from server to server - may vanish. My concern is that the seas we know today will be far different if all those "chill" players remove themselves from the shared environment.

    While @WolfManbush is right in that the environment we all sunk hours into has slowly gotten away from "interactions" anyways...I fear that, if not done carefully, this update could kill it altogether.

  • @sweetsandman

    Meh. I think most players inclined to play Safer Seas play comparatively little now, if at all. Myself, I will do it for oddball things or quiet sessions but it's hard to imagine a huge migration of people toughing it out now, as is, suddenly leaving en masse. The servers are not going to empty out. Having fewer fat easy targets might happen but to a large degree these people give up out of futility, or are quickly rolled already.

  • @sweetsandman said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    While @WolfManbush is right in that the environment we all sunk hours into has slowly gotten away from "interactions" anyways...I fear that, if not done carefully, this update could kill it altogether.

    If it becomes some casual social variety game for more players and they become less super absorbed in it like some of us still around it's probably more of a new life than a death.

    The top takes this game too dang seriously, the drama is ridiculous for a kid's pirate game, it's all too cliqued up and condescending. All this social status stuff has been terrible for the overall environment. All the chest pounding and talking down to people all over the place, and I'm not talking just on the pvp side, all over the social spaces.

    We just didn't handle it that well and a whole lot of people had a less enjoyable experience because of it.

    If it gets flipped-turned upside down and becomes something that is more about silly fun and less about what we as a group turned it into I don't see that as a loss. I see that as a new chance for people to sail together.

  • @merlin-mav-k said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    @sweetsandman

    Meh. I think most players inclined to play Safer Seas play comparatively little now, if at all. Myself, I will do it for oddball things or quiet sessions but it's hard to imagine a huge migration of people toughing it out now, as is, suddenly leaving en masse.

    I hope you're right. I really do. Based on the number of people excited for it across all the social channels I'm involved in, my concerns certainly seem valid. Time will tell.

    The servers are not going to empty out.

    Correct. Servers will always have 4-6 ships on them...but what types of players will be left populating them? What types of interactions will those players have with one another?

  • @sweetsandman

    Really don't imagine it to be much different. It's almost all default hostility, all the time for the most part. When not it's exceptional. Trying to communicate with anyone else for any reason is usually a lost cause.

    A typical server is 2-3 crewed Reapers fighting over (or allied to do) a fort and/or hunting emissaries and 1-2 other solo players trying their best to avoid them. Mileage varies, sometimes you have a cool encounter but it's comparatively rare.

  • Personally, I have my doubts believing those responsible for most positive interactions within the Higher Seas are the target audience for this mode. I would guess they (target audience) are either not playing the game right now, or they are avoiding every single player interaction they come accross. You can find people who immediately scuttle and change seas as soon as someone else gets near them. Those who are socially inclined probably wouldn't stick to a friends-only mode forever, if ever.

  • Too many young gamers today don’t like grinding for anything. They rather all play Minecraft type games with friends without interaction with others.

    So once they finish with all of any commendations that doesn’t involve with other player encounters, they either quit or complain about lack of.

    There needs to be future unlocks which requires you to encounter other players, either enemy or friend. With rewards that benefit it and worth it.
    Simple titles won’t do it anymore.

    But I see this all coming to an end by next summer. Once everyone who does Safer Seas and done everything there is, feeling no need to risk there time and safe space by jumping into higher seas will leave the game again. Until rare starts making more demanding actions like increasing lvl, gold, rewards and such. Because why should they play a game with toxic players?

    T title game isn’t just teens. Should change it to E

  • I don't think there will be much of a noticeable difference.

    Remember when arena shut down and a bunch of the arena dwellers said they were going to go in game and wreak havoc? Yeah...nothing changed.

  • @pithyrumble said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    I don't think there will be much of a noticeable difference.

    Remember when arena shut down and a bunch of the arena dwellers said they were going to go in game and wreak havoc? Yeah...nothing changed.

    I hope you're right. I hope that the chill players don't vanish from the seas. I'm probably overestimating its impact.

    That said, when Safer Seas launches, it will only be removing people from the shared world adventure, not adding.

    So the questions become...how many? And for how long?

  • My crewmate and i were talking about this subject last night - both of us were of the opinion that all commendations should be turned off in SS but we also think that FOF's and FOTD should be doable. Full PvE experience, zero titles or cosmetic rewards.

  • For me High Seas won't be any more hostule than they are now. I can't remember the last tume I had a friendly interaction with another crew.

    Really, I don't think I will notice any change since I always get greeted by cannons and a blunderbuss.

  • You aren't taking into account that most commendations how no reward and that milestones are just a copy pasted commendation system WITH rewards.

    As you can't progress milestones in safer seas.... AND because PL voyages are available there... There's way too many progression paths added since year1 that are turned off in Safer Seas for it to be of any use to 99% of the player base. Even those who want a chill experience. Also the tall tale checkpoint system is pretty useless. If you are looking for short sessions to slowly work on tall tales having to spend 10-15 minutes to get to the first stop because no other ships means you will get every PvE spawn so krakens, megs, skeleton ships... All that is happening to you since there's no one else for them to target. And all for loot thats worth anywhere from 20-300 gold and no convenient way to sell without sovereigns.

    I have slowly been working on the last few achievements I have. I need a few more gold hoarder voyages complete. Also vaults opened for a commendation. Also working on devils roar milestones and gold hoarder emissary ledger. I try to be more efficient with my play time so If I have all the ledger rewards and my renown is maxed I stop playing for the season. Which is why I haven't completed it yet. But in this case I am working on an achievement, a commendation, ledger rewards AND milestones all at once. On safer seas? Would only be getting 2 of those done. Not to mention it would be progressing multiple milestones not just devils roar voyage complete.

    Then I need about 50 LoTV voyages complete. I have been max rep forever now so that's irrelevant. I don't need gold for anything so that's irrelevant. I need a handful of the LoTV treasures for commendations and more importantly the voyage complete for the achievement. There have been too many side things happening each season which handle my athena ledger before I can even touch LoTV like this FoF updated.

    And not being able to use the ship decked out in the cosmetics I have put so much effort into in Safer Seas combined with not being able to make milestone progress for tall tales (i sure as heck am not going to do them on adventure because they are unrewarding and you just get attacked while doing them.

    People seem overly concerned over an insanely silly design choice that has been poorly implemented out of the gate. Rare hasn't understood player mindset since the game was release. While they have made some changes due to feedback this Safer Seas option would have been insanely popular in year 1 and brought them tons of emporium sales if that were in the game at launch. However adding it this late when there's so many progression paths now locked out of the mode and most of the PvE oriented people who wanted Safer Seas permanently quit 5 years ago...

    The big question is when they see Safer Seas is only getting 1% player engagement will they improve upon it? Or delete it like they did arena. Everything they seem to add, Arena, Hourglass all goes neglected to the point where it just dies. So I expect the same from Safer Seas.

    As many issues as arena had it still would have been a popular mode if they kept adding cosmetics. Similar to how hourglass hasn't had any updates. There's still no reward outside of commendation and milestone grinding from 200-1000. Like with arena you get no reward in the short term it's all locked behind ridiculously long grinds. Why wasn't there 5 color sets for arena? Reward a new tier every commendation rank instead NOPE 1 reward at rank 5 only. Then wait till arena gets its one and only big updated. Added 1 new color set locked behind another long grind. Then the mode is ignored till it dies. I hated arena. But deleting it was a massive mistake. Doing the lazy Blizzard "Lets recolor cosmetics and make people farm for them" instead of having a dye system is something they could have a low level intern do. Not sure why they act like doing a recolor of a cosmetic is such hard work vs making actually new designs.

    They seem to have a major lack of direction and foresight. And have from the start. While they were a bit more reactive to feedback in the past like getting skeleton ships in the game and other stuff to make the game feel more alive they have it has now been too little too late for years now.

    Season10 is a huge example. They underestimated how big of an undertaking guilds was going to be. In reality from our point of view it is an insanely small update essentially a smaller version of captaincy but with the same gameplay feature set.. Replay the whole game all over again. When they realized guilds was going to be harder to accomplish they could have broken off a small portion of the team to focus on something more easily accomplished for the next season instead of making an 8 month content drought to then put out a shallow update with lots of potential future applications. Also calling it guilds might have been a mistake. Though I imagine any other name might have felt just as weird. But to me coming from MMOs guilds are a large group of players who come together as a whole in a single place to accomplish things. Not small groups of people segregated on different servers playing as normal.

    I have always 100% supported PvE servers. I had played on a PvE discord on and off for 2 years but honestly hated having to wait in Que also how lazy my crew mates on there seemed to be. Sitting in a long que to then essentially have to solo a brig or galleon I could just go play alone on a sloop and have an easier time. So basically I was hoping for PvE servers with lower gold and rep gains but I could still accomplish my goals without needing a long que on a discord to have a relaxed place to play. I was willing to take that income hit for the sake of time efficient gameplay. Which is the MAJOR issue people have with the game. Sinking and loosing their loot makes it feel like they just spent the whole session getting nothing done which feels bad. The poor design of athena voyages locking the one and only rep item behind a long quest created the need for PvE servers. People didn't want to put in all this effort just to get the one thing that gave them progression stolen.

    Now there's tons of different athena loot and many different ways to get it. In the very least captaincy should be available on safer seas. Because without it the mode is truly useless. Unless you have a 5 year old who wants to play the game and not have to worry about them running into toxic gamers. But they will just panic at the first meg, kraken or skele ship anyway.

    Anyone who is panicked over safer seas obviously didn't look at the details or are really bad at math. 30% value of all loot, 10x time to sell due to no captaincy bonus. This mode will have 0 impact on the game. Even if it was out back at the launch of SoT all it would have done is kept people around who just permanently quit instead. Those are players you never would have been able to steal from in either case as them playing PvE or them perma quitting the game is basically the same thing from a PvPers perspective. From Rares perspective keeping these players around longer would have meant more emporium sales. But this mode is too little too late at this point. If anything it might bring a few thousand people back to the game. Maybe if they don't understand all the new progression paths they are missing out on they might not care at first. But this mode only solves part of the tall tail issue. It took them far too long to add checkpoints but even now the monkey island checkpoints are poorly done and not frequent enough especially for the open nature of them.

    The biggest commendation farms people want to do is athena and reapers and those aren't available. And arena is gone. Hourglass is the only tier of commendations that exists that has any kind of clout to it anymore and that has been ruined by ignoring the rampant cheater problem for so long.

    Even you stated theres 409 commendations people could work on in safer seas and 99 cosmetics tied to them.... Titles.. Does anyone actually care about titles? maybe 1% of the player base? I haven't even looked at my title in like 4 years. I was Pirate legend when it meant something then when they made it go from weeks if not months to earn PL to being 7ish hours? I think thats what they reported on their "average time to reach PL" graphic. it stopped meaning anything.

    Since you wanted to do all this number crunching for doom and gloom sake also go look at how many of those 409 commendations count toward milestones and how many milestone cosmetics you are missing out on unlocking by playing on safer seas. most commendation cosmetics are sails and 99% of commendation rewards and titles aren't used by anyone. So the point is kind of invalid. You are looking at it from the perspective of "I EARNED all my stuff!!! Now you're giving it away for free!!!" Who cares? You want the game to die? The point of PvE servers is more cash shop customers since the whales are dying off.

    Though honestly if they want more emporium sales HIRE A UI PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!! Every element of SoT has always been a hot mess when it comes to user experience in navigating the stuff. The shop has become super bloated and trying to find what you want is a nightmare. There's no subsections for stuff. Want emotes? look under pirate, want weapons? look under pirate etc. Its just a giant mess of junk all mashed up together.

    Also make ancient skeletons more common. The whole point of them is to be a tease to the emporium. As it is they are so rare most new players wont even realize when one is spawning. They will hear the music and be like "what the heck is that" but the trivial amount of ancient coins they give creates a sense of "hmm how do I spend these??" which then gets people to look at the emporium and see oh I can buy some of this with cash... But then navigating the emporium is so overwhelming they just walk away.

    TLDR Safer Seas would have been an amazing year 1 addition that would have kept potentially hundreds of thousands of people playing. At this late stage of the game it is a sad attempt to bring in more emporium customers that is too little too later and will is already dead in the water before it even released because its too restrictive. Perhaps I am in the small % of people who sees it as useless. You seem to think you earned your progression and don't want Safer Seas to have invalidated your play time. But its irrelevant. I have almost 100%ed achievements and commendations. Hourglass has made that impossible now though since I refuse to farm those. You could give everyone 100% completion for stuff I spent thousands of hours on tomorrow as a login bonus and I would be happy for them. I wouldn't feel cheated. I would be a bit jealous sure but that's relativity. Your sense of accomplishment shouldn't be tied to how others were able to do the same thing. Stop worrying about other people and focus on yourself and what makes you feel good.

  • @pithyrumble said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    I don't think there will be much of a noticeable difference.

    Remember when arena shut down and a bunch of the arena dwellers said they were going to go in game and wreak havoc? Yeah...nothing changed.

    right. tell that to all the people who got spawn camped trying to do adventures especially like hunters cry which was designed specifically to be a co-op friendly adventure and due to the design of the place turned into an arena like spawn camp fest because Rare took away their play ground so time to go troll people.

    then again i think when they added pirates life arena was still in the game right? and they just spawn camped the 2nd tale tale

    now they just use alt accounts to ruin peoples hourglass experience because they arent in it for the progresson but to ruin everyones enjoyement and why go hunting for people when you can bring the fight to you

  • @sweetsandman said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    @pithyrumble said in Concern with Commendations and Safer Seas:

    I don't think there will be much of a noticeable difference.

    Remember when arena shut down and a bunch of the arena dwellers said they were going to go in game and wreak havoc? Yeah...nothing changed.

    I hope you're right. I hope that the chill players don't vanish from the seas. I'm probably overestimating its impact.

    That said, when Safer Seas launches, it will only be removing people from the shared world adventure, not adding.

    So the questions become...how many? And for how long?

    It might bring some of the clashing down a bit

    not all of it or most of it but some of it

    there has always been that element of "if I get sunk or messed with it's toxic and people are toxic and the game is toxic" they also tend to be the ones that are wanting 1:1 rewards so who knows what they will do but less of that clashing is an overall positive. So many encounters become public negativity in one way or another. The people that sunk and the people that did the sinking turning that encounter to some off the seas drama thing.

    The online world does have that whole "any engagement is good engagement for the algorithms"thing and SoT really isn't much different but imo a lot of people just aren't looking for the drama that exists socially in this game.

    SoT has become very dramatic, very coordinated, and very contrived socially and even though that might keep the engagement going I don't think it brings in the people that are gonna enjoy the fun and positive parts of SoT. I think it's getting to the point socially where it brings in people that like the reality show stuff, the gossip stuff, watching the witch hunt stuff, watching the fights between this group and that group.

    I think it's unfortunate we had to get to this point for some of us that really enjoyed the diverse encounter part of SoT but overall I think the clashing has been getting more serious and the diverse encounters have been happening less.

    It's kinda just making official what has already existed for quite some time.

    I think the fork in the road that lead to quickly/eventually giving up or getting involved in the social media cliques really hasn't lead to these servers being nearly as varied as they could be. Maybe this will help with that, at least a little.

    If the game is going to be pushed as a social experience there needs to be a lot more accountability socially imo. Actions speak louder than words kinda deal.

  • @burnbacon Another abhorrent take from BurnBacon, keep them coming

  • Since Safer Seas according to Rare aren't meant to be a PvE server but rather a gateway to High Seas, a good way to prevent people from using them to cheese commendations would be to lock progress when you reach level 40 or putting a cap for commendations. After reaching that cap only fishing and tall tale commendations should be available. It would be unfair for example to be able to grind barnacle chests at Safer Seas as opposed to High Seas. While i was skeptical at first (i still am) Safer Seas could be a great way to introduce players to the game and make the sandbox more alive than ever. Balance is key here and tbh i don't completely trust Rare can pull this off but i hope to get proven wrong.

  • Hilariously, today I did safer seas as a casual, and relaxing exploration of shrine of tribute. Got all twenty pieces back on board and was sunk by NPC Pirates! I just laughed, 2 hours of exploration back into the sea!

  • They've made the decision, can't see any plans to change it. Personally I would have only allowed up to a specific tier in safer seas. It does suck that people can do 100 vaults in absolute safety and nothing marks the difference between their commendation and the one I got fully in high seas but oh well, every qol update has made things easier and people can say the same. They had to farm pl catching chickens, athena using thieves haven runs. Merchant missions when it wasn't guaranteed animal and didn't take you straight to island with crates there ready.

    Your numbers are slightly misleading as high seas should be the safer seas number plus those exclusive but I get the point you're making

  • @hiradc

    Thread from the dead.

    I'm curious what % of the playerbase's time is spent in Safer Seas now this many months after its release. Wonder if it's as little as Arena garnered.

  • @sweetsandman Almost necro'd your ship speed thread while grabbing the link for the "chase guns" thread a few days ago.

    I'm curious what % of the playerbase's time is spent in Safer Seas now this many months after its release. Wonder if it's as little as Arena garnered.

    If I can sneak this in before the mods get to it, I'm guessing a figure above quest boards and below Arena.

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