Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.

@wolfmanbush All these content creators did was hunt down a ship, and shoot at it. We can't always blame the content creator for the actions they prefer to take on players performing high risk activities. It would be understandable if the players in question were doing a tall tale, or a low level voyage with no emissary up, but you can't excuse a Reaper V galleon that assumes the server is perfectly friendly, only for a hunter, content creator or not, to just blast them and demotivate them from playing the game because they think they can only play the high risk activity to make gold when that is far from the case.

The fact that content creators are the only people able to showcase this issue that a lot of hunter play styles encounter fairly regularly that it managed to at least get a dev's attention and response is ridiculous, and this might start becoming a mini-trend during the wait for S8 as the game activity feels like it has tanked for a lot of dedicated users.

I didn’t watch the clips but based on the tone of some of the posts here I can pretty much imagine how it went. I do agree that the risk of the emissary system is not clearly delineated; “Look, I raise a flag and get double loot! Yeah!” but I also really appreciate that SoT does very little hand-holding. Maybe just a warning when a pirate raises the emissary: “So, ye wanna be an emissary, do ye? Ye should know ye will receive great rewards but be hunted relentlessly from Red Sea to Red Sea. Do ye really wish to assume this risk?” And then leave it at that. A lot of people want to PvE with no interference and get pretty upset when it doesn’t work out that way, but that’s not realistic based on the game’s design and intent. Heck, I spent 45 minutes the other night with an Athena 5 worried about a Reaper 5 that apparently had more interesting things to do in the middle of the map, but knew I was in serious danger of losing a load of loot the whole time.

I do think the balance of power has swung more towards the hunter playstyle of late with influx of supplies from the off, it kind of diminishes the organic risk/reward playstyle. However, it still boggles my mind when players flying emissaries are upset that they are attacked using a system that is supposed to enhance this risk/reward theme of Sea of Thieves. I have my issues with parts of the game but the emissary system to me is pretty clear about what it represents.

@wolfmanbush said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

"I know you are upset with me" when the streamer is the agitated one egging him on while the player is clearly not upset. Interesting back and forth.

There is some very clear manipulation going on in that specific encounter.

According to the context of the Twitter comments, this was an excerpt from an encounter he had live, on stream (I might go look for the VoD later since this encounter went on for much longer apparently), doing solo PvP and sinking an Athena Emissary as he was a Reaper Emissary. I wish I knew how he managed to have a discussion going with a player he had just sunk, but the second set of clips was just letting an angry man rant instead of murdering them once their white name appeared on screen the first time around.

The agitation is the fact that players like this condemn other players for how they play instead of accepting their own flaws (which in of itself is a contradiction as many content creators tend to rant about players that don't want to fight while flying the Reaper's Bones Emissary and run away till they know they can get away with all the loot they have on board). Blurbs in that clip was trying to make an Athena Emissary player, who was just recently sunk for his flag, understand that he carried a risk, and paid for it by failing to defeat the reaper emissary that came for him and his loot.

It may seem like manipulation, but this kind of situation gets worse with how horrible the attitudes of players that get sunk tend to be, the fact that this was relatively "calm", is a miracle for data gathering purposes.

@d3adst1ck said:

You could over-explain the functionality of the emissary system in the game and all you'd end up doing is irritating the players who already understand it.

Or you could explain it in the Maiden Voyage. That way the game isn't over-explaining to anyone.

I think the Maiden Voyage should do a better job at introducing new players to the game than it currently does. There's a lot it doesn't touch on, and it should. We didn't have as much hand-holding when we were new, but we also didn't have any content outside of forts and voyages.

@d3adst1ck said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

You could over-explain the functionality of the emissary system in the game and all you'd end up doing is irritating the players who already understand it. Players like the ones in the clips are never going to get it.

Aye. In the two clips of Kota McKloud, the person says they are told by someone else that everyone on the server is friendly (which could be true at that moment).
This is not a fault with the emissary system ... and cannot be fixed by pop-ups giving warnings or whatever.

Well for a completely clueless pirate who just randomly bought this game I think this would help a lot to understand the concept. But even if somehow you came across the information that the emissary flag depending on its grade will give more gold when you sell it, how can you not put it up? As a new player, you finish a voyage that lasted you over an hour and you make at best 20-30k let's say. You open the shop and the ship set you want, or some cooler clothes cost you about 1 million for example. Do the math's how long it will take you, plus you see other pirates, all of them are wearing cool unseen sets. I think its only natural to assume that this is the way to play, if all of us earned pennies and the price for certain cosmetics was not so high, the emissary system would seem optional.

First clip is someone who believes that only with a "PvP flag" you'll get PvP ?

Again, it's not a fault with emissary - you're at risk in getting into a fight at any time. Raising an emissary will only enlarge the chance of someone going after you.

I'm tell y'all, this is a growing trend on Twitter now.

WolfManbush's evaluation of the first clip from Blurbs has been leaving me thinking a bit, mainly in terms of how the situation may have been presented. Content Creators now seem to be taking negative encounters and making it part of the same agenda: PvE players need to be informed more about how the game works. It's not that they're fully in the wrong for pointing this out, but it does seem to be more of "if we can get more players to say GGs when I out-skill them mercilessly will the game be better about the state of PvP."

I dunno, the fact that we have 4 clips from small, to medium, to partnered content creators all going about the same agenda is, interesting, to say the least. Especially since dev attention is being acknowledged on Twitter, this being one of the few recent times we have seen a sign of this game's developers, on the spot, live, telling us that they have talked about and have plans to help make the current PvPvE state of the game less split apart (even though I know WolfManbush will 100% say otherwise and I agree with them on that), I do find exciting for the future.

@d3adst1ck Part of the problem with that is because emissaries were added so long ago, all the videos and twitter posts are buried under whats already been added. And most of those players are either too prideful or too lazy to find those.

@wolfmanbush said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@nex-stargaze said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

(I might go look for the VoD later since this encounter went on for much longer apparently

I went and watched the whole thing

it's a typical sot condescending bait video where it's not a person talking to a person it's a person putting on a show and another being used as a content pawn.

I watched it as well and frankly it felt like any average slightly heated interaction after a fight. I've had similar interactions myself and I'm not a streamer. I didn't see any particularly condescending behaviour from the streamer, just him getting a bit fed up of arguing and losing his patience.

I think you might be allowing yourself to get unduly influenced by the fact that Blurbs is a streamer and that immediately puts you in the mindset that the other guy is the underdog vs the Streamer who is "abusing their power". If the streamer really wanted to milk this interaction for content they could have baited and goaded the other person a lot more. There are streamers that are professionals at doing that kind of thing and ones that excel at twisting the narrative to gas light their way into playing the victim card. From this interaction I can clearly see that this Blurbs guys is definitely not doing that.

The unfortunate part about it is that it was clearly a situation where 2 people could have had an honest and raw conversation in private but no, it had to be content, it had to be condescending and baity because it was being set up to be a clip

I don't share your opinion that this was baity or being set up as a clip. The streamer knows he is broadcasting to an audience but that doesn't necessarily mean he's instantly thinking, "I gotta milk this drama for clicks!". There are a lot more ways to bait this kind of situation for a juicy clickbait video and this guy Blurbs isn't doing that.

It comes off as a very usual amount of condescension from both sides. I've had conversations exactly like this with Emissary players I've sunk. And even with the best intentions it's extremely hard not to sound condescending when you're trying to explain to someone you sunk that you're not evil for playing the PvP part of this PvEvP game. They almost always start talking down to you as if your playstyle is a cancer in the game and that you should feel responsible for destroying their fun. No matter how politely you put across that you're just someone playing the game same as them.

I'm always talking about how much toxicity and unpleasantness could be reduced in this game if this very thing didn't happen. Had this not been for a show and rather just an honest and personal convo it would have likely ended on a much more positive note, or had the one recording deescalated and moved on it could have been left at a point of disagreement but also a place where nothing significantly negative happened.

The idea that everything needs to be content, needs to be dramatic, needs to be a show, needs to be recorded and uploaded is what killed the potential for something positive in this situation.

Talk to and treat people like people and not content pawns and things work out much more consistently in general and in this game.

Again, sometimes no matter how polite you try to be the other crew might not want to deescalate because they're too amped up with adrenaline or just bitter because of the loss of their time/treasure. Just because Blurbs is a streamer I don't think it's right that you should naturally assume that he is doing it for a show. That's not fair in my opinion.

I have had very similar interactions even though I'm not a streamer. I have also witnessed content creators who make their money solely out of provoking and preying on other people for content and I can tell you with confidence that this is not what Blurbs was doing here.

@wolfmanbush said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

He says "I'm not trying to be condescending" in the video which likely means either he knows he is regularly condescending or that he is accused of it and it's something he is defensive about so he sets up the defense before he goes on offense.

That's pure speculation on your part. Not to play armchair psychologist here but; people who use phrases like, "I'm not trying to be 'insert negative personality connotation here'" tend to be people who are possessing of self awareness and tend to be able to look outside of themselves to how they might look/come off as to others. It's a common trait in people who are socially adroit and/or people who are hyper critical of themselves/their image.

It's not as simple as labelling this personality trait as a purely negative one. It's simply a facet of people who are more self aware. A lot of introverted people exhibit this kind of self awareness when in social settings.

I'm also familiar with how he handles situations in his own chat where he disagrees with someone/someone disagrees with him and he handles it the way a few of them do. There are a few partners that generally act a similar way that are engaging in this same strategy right now of putting random encounters on blast rather than moving on and/or reporting individual incidents/encounters like everyone else.

How else are they supposed to get the developers to take notice of a topic they feel passionate about and to acknowledge an issue they witness on a daily basis?

A lot of us spend years typing out feedback on this very forum concerning the same issues and the developers may never acknowledge it or utter a word about it. For all we know we could be talking into a void.

What you should be asking is, why does it have to take prominent content creators spamming social media in order to get a definitive response from the developers on a subject as important as this?

Other people doing it more extreme than what was done here doesn't mean it wasn't done here it just means you believe it was done worse elsewhere.

I don't have any interest in ranking who does it worse I personally have an interest in seeing it being held accountable as long as it is being used to influence decisions in the game and to push narratives about groups of players through random individual encounters.

Pushing narratives about entire groups of players is definitely a concern. But this forum does it all the time. There are constant narratives being pushed where all PvP players are put into a homogenous group and labelled as "bad for the game". PvP players also do this to PvE players but because PvP players are a minority on here the prevailing narrative is one of PvE players complaining about PvP.

The only way the developers can avoid falling into the trap of being fed a particular narrative is to avoid falling into an echo chamber. Which means they have to listen to as many different points of view as possible while also staying aware of how the average person who does not use social media experiences their game.

The main issue I see from this whole debate is the very common problem of developers seeming to only react when prominent content creators put pressure on them to issue a response about a "hot topic" issue. This then serves to alienate a portion of the community who start to feel like content creators have far too much pull on what issues get attention and which ones get addressed while others stay low priority. This is an issue that a lot of online service games experience.

@wolfmanbush said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@vakrisone said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

The main issue I see from this whole debate is the very common problem of developers seeming to only react when prominent content creators put pressure on them to issue a response about a "hot topic" issue. This then serves to alienate a portion of the community who start to feel like content creators have far too much pull on what issues get attention and which ones get addressed while others stay low priority. This is an issue that a lot of online service games experience.

I agree with this but I'd also say there is a very real issue with "protect the streamer" while people are entirely willing to sacrifice powerless members of the community even if those members are caught up in something negative they either did or contributed to, they should be protected in this community from mass negativity/embarrassment/mass harsh opinions. They did not opt in to that, they do not benefit from that, a healthy community protects even those that are struggling from being subjected to that much negative attention when it comes to something as insignificant as gaming beef.

I agree with you on upholding a certain etiquette towards players based on moral principles. It's the honourable thing to do, because it's absolutely true that as players of a game none of us officially consent to being recorded and used as content by people who make a living off of streaming/recording their gameplay.

The problem is that nobody in the gaming industry actually upholds this particular code of ethics. For better or worse we've essentially sleepwalked into a world where we're just as likely to be recorded while playing an online game as we are by a CCTV camera while walking the streets of most western countries. It's accepted as a given that a content creator can use any player they encounter as content for their channel provided no rules are breached from the game's core code of conduct. No forms of consent need to be signed, no royalties paid for the use of a player's "likeness" - for lack of a better term. The rules that apply to actual identities largely do not apply to in-game avatars.

I admire the principle that a healthy community should protect its players from being subjected to mass negative attention. But I don't think I've ever seen this principle be inacted in all my time playing online games with a strong content creator scene. The onus is always on both content creators simply being decent human beings and not abusing their power and on players themselves just being aware enough during their game time to make sure they guard against having an emotional outpouring that ends up in a highlight reel or Twitch clip.

@wolfmanbush said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@vakrisone said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

The problem is that nobody in the gaming industry actually upholds this particular code of ethics. For better or worse we've essentially sleepwalked into a world where we're just as likely to be recorded while playing an online game as we are by a CCTV camera while walking the streets of most western countries. It's accepted as a given that a content creator can use any player they encounter as content for their channel provided no rules are breached from the game's core code of conduct. No forms of consent need to be signed, no royalties paid for the use of a player's "likeness" - for lack of a better term. The rules that apply to actual identities largely do not apply to in-game avatars.

I admire the principle that a healthy community should protect its players from being subjected to mass negative attention. But I don't think I've ever seen it in all my time playing online games with a strong content creator scene. The onus is always on both content creators simply being decent human beings and not abusing their power and on players themselves just being aware enough during their game time to make sure they guard against having an emotional outpouring that ends up in a highlight reel or Twitch clip.

I don't expect much to change but I believe that I have an obligation of service to any community I am a part of
to put effort and consistency and accountability into supporting and encouraging change for what I believe to be a less destructive approach to co-existing

Like Bruce Hornsby & The Range sang

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them

It's wildly hypocritical and destructive to have so many talking about mental health all the time "being good and decent" and then turn around and destroy each other while benefiting on social media, attack people that realistically can't even escape that poison in modern life.

A lot of people with a public platform pay lip service to mental health without understanding what it actually means. That's not just here in the SoT social bubble. Talking about mental health in the context of this particular clip is a conversation that far exceeds the scope of this thread topic so I don't really want to start a sub-topic about it.

Just want to say that I fully understand the concerns you're putting across and I agree with some of them to an extent. But I also have to add that in my opinion no one playing SoT is obliged to be another person's psychiatrist nor should anyone be burdened with having to pre-emptively assume how much poison someone else is dealing with in their private or social life. We all live with pain and trauma in our lives.

The best you can ever ask for in the context of an online game is that people play nice with each other and remain civil.

To me, I don't see anything particularly egregious in Blurb's clip or his entire encounter with that one player as to label it destructive or hypocritical vis-a-vis mental health.

The streamer that keeps have their content posted here literally went through that poison not too long ago so that adds to how irresponsible this use of power is. They know what it's like when people with more power and more numbers puts them and their mistakes on blast for mass negativity. This applies to others as well and all the people in those communities that did not remain consistent in principles.

I don't believe that is a sign of lack of consistently in principles. I merely see it as a sign of mental resilience. Someone in Blurb's position has to be able to have a thick skin otherwise they would go mad trying to chase down every nasty comment or character assassination attempt upon them. To my knowledge he didn't make a big stink about that previous debacle. He just stated his perspective in the matter and was done with it.

Like most people that have to deal with social media on a regular basis, he shrugs and moves on. Which, to be perfectly blunt is exactly what the person in Blurb's clip should be doing. Not because of some ill conceived notion of "suck it up, buttercup!" but because it is the healthiest thing one can do in terms of their mental health. This is ultimately just a brief and unimportant moment in time for both people concerned and should be treated as such.

For us onlookers it should merely be just a spark used to ignite a debate on whether the game is doing enough to encourage healthier interactions between PvE and PvP.

It’s their marketing. They market the game as this shared world full of adventures. They don’t even hint at the reality of life on these Seas 🤣

@whyo said:

It’s their marketing. They market the game as this shared world full of adventures. They don’t even hint at the reality of life on these Seas 🤣

Man, maybe we need a pop up prompt every time we set sail that says, "this is a PvPvE game btw. Play nice, have fun."

@theblackbellamy said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@whyo said:

It’s their marketing. They market the game as this shared world full of adventures. They don’t even hint at the reality of life on these Seas 🤣

Man, maybe we need a pop up prompt every time we set sail that says, "this is a PvPvE game btw. Play nice, have fun."

That would be the logical next step as there will be players who take the pop-up about risk for raising an emissary flag to mean that without raising it they should be safe ...

@lem0n-curry said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@theblackbellamy said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@whyo said:

It’s their marketing. They market the game as this shared world full of adventures. They don’t even hint at the reality of life on these Seas 🤣

Man, maybe we need a pop up prompt every time we set sail that says, "this is a PvPvE game btw. Play nice, have fun."

That would be the logical next step as there will be players who take the pop-up about risk for raising an emissary flag to mean that without raising it they should be safe ...

There will always be people who misinterpret information, but the way i see it, the less information can be misinterpreted or misconstrued, the better. Having people think not raising an emissary flag means they are safe, is better than having people think sailing with or without one means they are safe.

@lem0n-curry said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@theblackbellamy said in Immersively lacking important information for the simple-minded.:

@whyo said:

It’s their marketing. They market the game as this shared world full of adventures. They don’t even hint at the reality of life on these Seas 🤣

Man, maybe we need a pop up prompt every time we set sail that says, "this is a PvPvE game btw. Play nice, have fun."

That would be the logical next step as there will be players who take the pop-up about risk for raising an emissary flag to mean that without raising it they should be safe ...

My exact thought, actually. Players will now complain that they got attacked because "I didn't raise an Emissary flag, so that's opting out of PvP according to the pop-up."

@theblackbellamy
I like it. That’s a simple straightforward solution.