Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them

  • Sock Daniels
    Ship Mate

    On Jan 9, 2019, Destructoid released an article titled "Sea of Thieves is fixing the dreaded 'double gun' tactic." This included a quote from Executive Producer Joe Neate that advised that the developers "never intended for there to be a one-shot kill plater-to-player in Sea of Thieves". With some of the more recent updates, I noticed that I can no longer "fast dig" by swapping out my shovel quickly, which is fine, clearly they saw an issue with game balance and acted on it appropriately. Yet, the dreaded double shot combo is still extremely prevalent and dominating any and all players who don't bother to learn or use it. For the very few of you who have not experienced this yet, with the right quick combination of button mashing, you can swap weapons and fire your secondary weapon far too quickly after the first, almost guaranteeing an unfair advantage towards the attacker who shoots first while using it.

    I realize it's been 3-4 years since that article, and likely nothing further will change with this particular issue. Accepting that with an understanding frown, there is still another annoying long term issue that I feel is just as frustrating and gets abused far too often: "Combat Jump Spamming". It's bad enough that there are actually players who will spend their time and money to research how to pick the smallest/thinnest possible character models in the game to even clothe them with the right cosmetics just to shave a few pixels off their character's profile for combat advantage, but then they also bounce up and down constantly in every fight like it's a bouncy castle of death. Not only does this look absolutely ridiculous, but it makes PvP combat for those of us who don't "min/max" every facet of our gameplay, that much more at a disadvantage. I've recently even encountered a crew where every member had the same character build, and they all wore the same outfit just to make them harder to shoot when in combat. They all constantly jumped so much, they hardly kept more than one foot off the ground the entire fight, double blasting us with less than a second or two to even try to defend ourselves from certain death.

    Rare, would you please consider debuffing repeat jumping like this, especially in combat? Perhaps it could cause stamina drain and tire a character out just like it does when a character has missed a thrusting charge does with a sabre?

    I just feel that this game already requires a great deal of experience to prevail in naval tactics, I'd really like for Close Quarters and Small-Arm engagements to be much the same way. Tactics and smart execution should prevail with a touch of luck, as it stands right now, anyone who masters combat jump and double shot spamming will always come out on top.

    Just my opinion, what think you community?

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  • D3ADST1CK
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    @sock-daniels said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    On Jan 9, 2019, Destructoid released an article titled "Sea of Thieves is fixing the dreaded 'double gun' tactic." This included a quote from Executive Producer Joe Neate that advised that the developers "never intended for there to be a one-shot kill plater-to-player in Sea of Thieves". With some of the more recent updates, I noticed that I can no longer "fast dig" by swapping out my shovel quickly, which is fine, clearly they saw an issue with game balance and acted on it appropriately. Yet, the dreaded double shot combo is still extremely prevalent and dominating any and all players who don't bother to learn or use it. For the very few of you who have not experienced this yet, with the right quick combination of button mashing, you can swap weapons and fire your secondary weapon far too quickly after the first, almost guaranteeing an unfair advantage towards the attacker who shoots first while using it.

    There is a hard coded lower limit of 1 second between gunshots. Even if you can switch to the other weapon quicker than this, you cannot fire quicker than 1s apart.

    It's bad enough that there are actually players who will spend their time and money to research how to pick the smallest/thinnest possible character models in the game to even clothe them with the right cosmetics just to shave a few pixels off their character's profile for combat advantage

    This is false. All characters have the same hitbox. Picking a thinner character is a placebo and does not offer any advantage.

    Jumping all over the place isn't a problem. In some cases it makes them easier to track because now they are subject to gravity and unable to change direction mid-air.

  • MaximusArael020
    Captain
    Insider

    I'm all for removing any exploit (except the sword-lunge through water). Removing the ability to fire the second shot before it was designed would be good in my opinion.

    However I don't know if I agree about the jumping. I don't want my character to suddenly feel weighed down and not as mobile. If it's a thing in PvP situations, then it will also be a thing in PvE situations, and I don't want to feel like I can't get away from an Ashen Lord that's about to explode or away from kegging skellies because I "ran out of stamina."

    I totally get the frustration. However in general if they are hopping around they will have a harder time hitting their target while double-gunning as well. If they are so practiced that it does not impede them, then they would probably have beaten you anyway as they are far more experienced.

    In the end, I wish they would remove the quick-fire exploit for double-gunners, because that was never the way the game was meant to operate. But nerfing jumping currently would just make the whole game feel slower and less mobile, and I don't think most people would probably want that.

  • a10dr4651
    Commander
    Insider

    You're going to get quite a bit of gatekeeping on this post. Double gun mains won't want a change, it's the meta, they're used to it, they like it, which is fair enough. Sword/flintlock user here, I wouldn't say any other loadout is not competitive, it's just about knowing your loadouts limitations. I'd like slower combat personally, less damage dealt by all weapons, throwable curses maybe and block to actually work on the cutlass would be nice.

  • Unleet1
    Lord
    Insider

    Jumping, strafe jumping, etc. isn't a really good meta. There is no real "bunny-hopping" to gain momentum, it's not quake. lol and it also makes you an easy target as someone can easily predict where you land. If you want to dodge you want ENAS, and once you get the quick-switch double gun meta down, you can ENAS between shots for extra sweat.

  • Shackelfourd508
    Castaway

    This is false. All characters have the same hitbox. Picking a thinner character is a placebo and does not offer any advantage.

    Jumping all over the place isn't a problem. In some cases it makes them easier to track because now they are subject to gravity and unable to change direction mid-air.

    It was never said the hit boxes were different. That’s common knowledge. It’s a fact that character’s profiles can be selected by the “min/maxer” PvP types, to be much smaller and harder to to track and aim at with your eyes on screen. The hit boxes and hit registration although partially related, is a whole other issue altogether and has nothing to do with how many pixels a super thin player with the right cosmetics has over the opposite. Onto the topic at hand, if a player selects and incredibly thin build for their character and equips certain cosmetics, they can mitigate how many pixels they take up on screen substantially. When you add in the ability for players to jump about endlessly, it makes tracking them extremely difficult. Shooting a weapon, particularly a musket should be a lofty, heavy task. Having players bounce around endlessly while consecutively firing shots from fire/swap/sprint/aim/fire succession makes PvP combat obsolete and at a disadvantage for anyone who doesn’t do the same.

    I like mobility sure enough too, and in a sword fight, maybe some of it would make since, but having an extremely thin character model who also bounces around spamming blunders and snipes while in a naval engagements is a lot harder to track with the eye than it a player who uses a more robust model character and elects to play the game any other way.without spamming carpel tunnel combinations for that split second follow-up shot.

    They could remove ADS while jumping (Aim down sights) that might be a good compromise.

  • D3ADST1CK
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    Founder

    @shackelfourd508 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    This is false. All characters have the same hitbox. Picking a thinner character is a placebo and does not offer any advantage.

    Jumping all over the place isn't a problem. In some cases it makes them easier to track because now they are subject to gravity and unable to change direction mid-air.

    It was never said the hit boxes were different. That’s common knowledge. It’s a fact that character’s profiles can be selected by the “min/maxer” PvP types, to be much smaller and harder to to track and aim at with your eyes on screen. The hit boxes and hit registration although partially related, is a whole other issue altogether and has nothing to do with how many pixels a super thin player with the right cosmetics has over the opposite.

    They aren't any harder to target. If you are aiming close enough to the center no matter how thin or fat the character is you're going to hit them. If you're aiming based on the player shape, you should be missing just as much on fat characters since their girth can extend beyond the width of the hitbox while on thinner characters you can be shooting at "air" and getting hits because it still falls within the hitbox area.

  • Shackelfourd508
    Castaway

    @unleet1 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    Jumping, strafe jumping, etc. isn't a really good meta. There is no real "bunny-hopping" to gain momentum, it's not quake. lol and it also makes you an easy target as someone can easily predict where you land. If you want to dodge you want ENAS, and once you get the quick-switch double gun meta down, you can ENAS between shots for extra sweat.

    The advantage isn’t a matter of “b-hopping” for speed increase or for momentum. It’s a matter of making themselves harder to track and shoot back while engaging with small arms, particularly in close quarters. Hit boxes are irrelevant. We’re talking about the advantage a “min/maxer” player has by using the thinnest/smallest character model possible and hopping around endlessly to make it difficult for counter shots.

    Perhaps jumping in combat should slow a characters speed, but if they put their weapon away, then they can jump endlessly as they have more freedom of movement.

    Player models bouncing up and down while taking instant sniper shots, followed almost immediately by blunders should not be possible. It looks ridiculous, and it negates all reasonable tactics that should instead utilized and encouraged.

    Anytime one play style trumps all others in combat, it becomes the standard and the current mechanics being used shouldn’t be, as the article quote from the executive said in the article listed above.

    It’s a pirate game, and yet Sword duels, are almost last resort these days. Especially when blunder grenades, jump spamming, and double shots trump all other play styles and make them obsolete.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    The exploiting version of DG was removed. You can still double gun, and fire pretty quickly.

    The actual hit box is the same for every pirate. Skinny only counts for tuckers.

    I absolutely do not want to see a stamina bar or anything that changes jumping, running, BUCKETING, dig or bury, rowing....just to name a few. You think this is a good idea, but it's going to slow everything down.

  • Unleet1
    Lord
    Insider

    @shackelfourd508 jump spamming is not nearly as good as other methods, which I explained to you. Once you practice enough, people who just jump around in different directions while sprinting are relatively easy targets. I agree though, it IS silly. It's a silly game though. Don't take it too serious! (or do, but at least have fun...or not!)

  • Sock Daniels
    Ship Mate

    @pithyrumble said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    The exploiting version of DG was removed. You can still double gun, and fire pretty quickly.

    The actual hit box is the same for every pirate. Skinny only counts for tuckers.

    I absolutely do not want to see a stamina bar or anything that changes jumping, running, BUCKETING, dig or bury, rowing....just to name a few. You think this is a good idea, but it's going to slow everything down.

    I'm fine with is being slower, and so are many others I play with. Right now, combat favors anyone who can spam spacebar and double shot more than actual tactics, strategy, and precision. I love the naval combat in the game, but am not happy with small arms combat.

  • Sock Daniels
    Ship Mate

    @unleet1 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @shackelfourd508 jump spamming is not nearly as good as other methods, which I explained to you. Once you practice enough, people who just jump around in different directions while sprinting are relatively easy targets. I agree though, it IS silly. It's a silly game though. Don't take it too serious! (or do, but at least have fun...or not!)

    I'm a P.L., I've been playing this game for a long time. This has been an issue that has only grown to be more and more problematic. In my opinion, the bunny hopping to throw-off players from targeting is ridiculous and should be nerfed. It's always bothered me, especially when I have no choice but to do the same in return to have any chance to survive. It's not silly, it's just not appealing to me that "if you can't beat um', join um" is the only solution that works. I might even have some acceptance with only being able to jump rapidly if you have a circle of extra health regeneration. Anything to keep folks from spamming jumps while shooting over and over is a win.

  • StormagedonGirl
    Seafarer

    Rare, would you please consider debuffing repeat jumping like this, especially in combat? Perhaps it could cause stamina drain and tire a character out just like it does when a character has missed a thrusting charge does with a sabre?

    I just feel that this game already requires a great deal of experience to prevail in naval tactics, I'd really like for Close Quarters and Small-Arm engagements to be much the same way. Tactics and smart execution should prevail with a touch of luck, as it stands right now, anyone who masters combat jump and double shot spamming will always come out on top.

    Just my opinion, what think you community?

    Yes please! This is very frustrating and really makes sabre battles an extreme rarity. I can't remember the last one I ever had. Seems I always sink to players jumping up and down, that shoot faster than I can with two weapons. It may not be an "exploit", but I shouldn't have to change my style of play to be the same as theirs just to compete.

  • Grog Minto
    Master
    Insider

    Personally, I'd liked a better swordfight system. The one we got right now is really not appealing (probably one of the worse version yet). It would be nice to be able to feel the power fantasy of being a Pirate dueling. Maybe if it was more fun to use more people would use it.

    At the same time, we should be cautious with increasing the killing time too much in general. The slower people die in combat, the more advantageous number becomes. Right now you definitely can win while outnumbered because you can quickly kill one of your opponents, retreat then come again. Not saying that there is nothing to do here but we shouldn't forget that point.

    But yeah, better Swordplay.

  • tossico94
    Seafarer

    Do you also want auto lock when aiming?

  • Shackelfourd508
    Castaway

    @tossico94 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    Do you also want auto lock when aiming?

    Come, come now. No reason to get cross.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    @sock-daniels

    I avoid pvp.
    Your requests would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the rest of the game so you can feel better about losing a fight. Cause the guys wrecking you with DG would adapt and spam blunderbombs.
    Then you'd want that nerfed.

    This isn't skyrim. We don't need stamina drains.

  • tossico94
    Seafarer

    @pithyrumble
    Right.

    All because some people's can't afford to lose.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    @tossico94

    I've seen pvp whining destroy good pve toys in several games.

  • Nawvillus
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    "never intended for there to be a one-shot kill" the rest of the quote is kinda confusing on what they are trying to say but we can probably assume they meant a one shot kill weapon and yet the blunderbuss can one shot kill 4 years after this article was made, nice!

  • Shackelfourd508
    Castaway

    @pithyrumble said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @sock-daniels

    I avoid pvp.
    Your requests would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the rest of the game so you can feel better about losing a fight. Cause the guys wrecking you with DG would adapt and spam blunderbombs.
    Then you'd want that nerfed.

    This isn't skyrim. We don't need stamina drains.

    No one mentioned stamina drains being the all in option. Pretty sure solution digging for a problem many of us feel isn’t a bad thing. Just because you enjoy jump spamming and have the ability to hit Street Fighter combos endlessly to fast shoot without carpel tunnel, doesn’t mean all of us do.

    I think repeat jumping needs to go while you are carrying loot or are wielding a firearm. Imo

  • Nawvillus
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    @a10dr4651 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    You're going to get quite a bit of gatekeeping on this post. Double gun mains won't want a change, it's the meta, they're used to it, they like it, which is fair enough. Sword/flintlock user here, I wouldn't say any other loadout is not competitive, it's just about knowing your loadouts limitations. I'd like slower combat personally, less damage dealt by all weapons, throwable curses maybe and block to actually work on the cutlass would be nice.

    I pretty much agree with less damage on guns although that would kill double gunning if they can't kill in 2 shots (put in a sarcastic oh noooo reaction here), I like sword play and wish there was more emphasis on using a sword in a pirate game rather than running multiple guns but 4 years in I don't think much will change.

  • StormagedonGirl
    Seafarer

    @pithyrumble said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @sock-daniels

    I avoid pvp.
    Your requests would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the rest of the game so you can feel better about losing a fight. Cause the guys wrecking you with DG would adapt and spam blunderbombs.
    Then you'd want that nerfed.

    This isn't skyrim. We don't need stamina drains.

    "so you can feel better"

    hmmmm... Yeah I don't agree with you.

    This sounds more like an attack and a resist to find a compromise. Pretty sure Socks was just pointing out a frustration with repeat jumps and double shot combos being annoying as you have there's no other way to compete against other than to do the same thing. The current combat structure with guns and swords is far from what I would like for it to be and I think it's annoying for a lot of us actually, thank you very much.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    Oh, so now I can't hop over that pile of rocks to get to my ship faster?

    There is no separation of PvP and PvE. You want to nerf something since you think it'll help you win a fight but now you've made something else less fun.

    Besides, there's no SF combos in SoT.
    (Yells hadoken into the mic throwing firebombs now)

  • StormagedonGirl
    Seafarer

    @shackelfourd508 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @pithyrumble said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @sock-daniels

    I avoid pvp.
    Your requests would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the rest of the game so you can feel better about losing a fight. Cause the guys wrecking you with DG would adapt and spam blunderbombs.
    Then you'd want that nerfed.

    This isn't skyrim. We don't need stamina drains.

    No one mentioned stamina drains being the all in option. Pretty sure solution digging for a problem many of us feel isn’t a bad thing. Just because you enjoy jump spamming and have the ability to hit Street Fighter combos endlessly to fast shoot without carpel tunnel, doesn’t mean all of us do.

    I think repeat jumping needs to go while you are carrying loot or are wielding a firearm. Imo

    Hear, hear.

  • StormagedonGirl
    Seafarer

    @pithyrumble said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    Oh, so now I can't hop over that pile of rocks to get to my ship faster?

    There is no separation of PvP and PvE. You want to nerf something since you think it'll help you win a fight but now you've made something else less fun.

    Besides, there's no SF combos in SoT.
    (Yells hadoken into the mic throwing firebombs now)

    Why not just have it so you can jump endlessly when you weapons holstered, and when you have a weapon or treasure in your hand, you can only jump every so many seconds without loosing your breath. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Not sure why anyone is for breaking the space bar on their keyboard and having to learn how to fight while endlessly jumping. It's extremely frustrating to me and apparently others. Instead of pointing out the negatives of every solution, perhaps you could suggest some positive solutions that might work as a compromise? Just a thought.

  • Sock Daniels
    Ship Mate

    I'm just saying that the naval combat in this game rocks, and that small-arms and close quarters needs an overhaul (IMO). Let's all try to be a bit nicer, and if you can think of some ideas that might work as a good compromise, share them! If you disagree, then good for you, I wish I could enjoy it with you, but I don't. Have fun doing you. I know I don't enjoy it, and many of the friends and family members I play with, don't either. We don't want to have to combo spam to double shoot, nor spam space bar in order to fight off a crew who does just that. It's extremely taxing, and doesn't feel fluid or fun to me at all.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    @stormagedongirl

    I knock ideas I don't like. It's a public forum. If I had found the Stools thread? Hooooo boy.

    Suggestions effect everyone's game. Expect pushback on things. I wanna equip all my pets. Probably make hitreg worse if you encounter me with 3 dog, 3 cats, a bird a monkey and a pocket crab. 🤣

  • StormagedonGirl
    Seafarer

    @pithyrumble said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @stormagedongirl

    I knock ideas I don't like. It's a public forum. If I had found the Stools thread? Hooooo boy.

    Suggestions effect everyone's game. Expect pushback on things. I wanna equip all my pets. Probably make hitreg worse if you encounter me with 3 dog, 3 cats, a bird a monkey and a pocket crab. 🤣

    I like my dog, but he gets in the way half the time I want to grab things. I wish I could lock the prompt to even interact with him. It would make adventuring and combat easier for him to tag along.

  • Sally Kraken
    Marauder

    Double gunning seems a lot less of a problem since they fiddled with it a bit a while back. Bunny hopping, however, is something that could do with being looked at. I was fighting someone the other day who was able to jump and turn so well that they were basically moving backwards through the air at sprint speed while shooting - they could take on a whole galleon crew and no character with a sword was going to close the distance. I resorted to blunder bombs as that was the only thing that was going to get a hit on them.

    I dont see many people doing the bunny hop thing these days, however. Presumably because many who do it just dont find the game a challenge - they are also the players that tend not to bother with loot and completing events, its like they are playing a different game to everyone else.

  • E3pos
    Master
    Insider

    Actually if you jump around alot you are much easier to track. After you have jumped you will have a few frames when your trajectory is locked in and your landing position is predictable. Best doublegunners only jump to get on different platforms.
    What you are suggesting to be a problem here is actually something that makes it easier to kill doublegunners.

  • Zedny3434
    Marauder
    Insider

    I don't know about PvP, but in PvE jumping while using the cutlass can bypass the enemy's block.
    Since I made this realization, I've never stayed on the ground when sword fighting.

  • Boxcar Squidy
    Captain
    Insider

    The thing about this is: Rare has had four years to test all of this stuff.

    Do you honestly think Rare hasn't internally tested stamina systems, reduced ability to jump and stuff like that by now?

    I'll bet they have. And I'll bet that when they tested them it either wasn't fun or didn't work.

    This is the combat system that they feel meets their design goals, is the most fun to play and is the best balanced version of all of the tweaks and versions that they've tested.

    I think they'll probably keep making minor tweaks to it here and there, but expecting a complete change or rewrite of player versus player combat at this stage doesn't feel realistic to me.

  • Unleet1
    Lord
    Insider

    @sock-daniels It takes one day to get PL. "I'm PL" means you played for a day. I have been playing PC games for over 30 years and helped pioneer bunny-hopping in quake 1 and quake 3, I know a little.

    you cannot "bunny hop" in SoT. Bunny hopping is strafe jumping, using game physics to gain momentum and speed.

    Some people just don't want to improve their game, they would rather nerf someone else's. Like I said, "jump spamming" is far from the best tactic in combat and any experienced player should welcome that play style in a game with no true BHOP physics.

  • MaximusArael020
    Captain
    Insider

    @unleet1 said in Combat Jump Spamming & Double Shots - Rare Please Nerf Them:

    @sock-daniels It takes one day to get PL. "I'm PL" means you played for a day. I have been playing PC games for over 30 years and helped pioneer bunny-hopping in quake 1 and quake 3, I know a little.

    Please don't diminish other people's accomplishments. I know some people can cheese the system and get PL very quickly nowadays, however for some people (like myself) it can take years if you have a job and a family and can't dedicate more than an hour or two every week to playing. I'm not saying that we should always take what a person who is PL says as gospel, however please just don't diminish other people's accomplishments. You have no idea the journey they took to get there.

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