please rare nerf the sword

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:

My problems with the sword...

• The servers. On the other players screen you are right in front of him, while you on the other hand are at a distance. So it looks like he is noodle arming you from 2 miles away. (so not a sword issue tbf).

This is true.

• Sword having no punishment. Atleast with guns you need to hit your shots and reload if you miss. A sword user will just keep running at you and swing over & over. Before hand you atleast got slowed down if you swung and missed.

There is a slight delay after the 3rd swing; it's not much, but it is still there. As for getting slowed on a miss, they removed it because it was too easy for doubble-gunning pirates to get away; now it's balanced.

• Increased Damage. Not only did they remove movement punishment for missing a swing, they also felt the need to increase the damage from 5 swings to 4. wich with the stun lock makes it even harder to escape a sword tornado.

Stun lock only works if they get close, and if you have a sword yourself, you cam block-dodge out of it instantly.

As for the 5 to 4 hits change, they had to bring the sword's damage in line with the other weapons - prior to that change, any double-gunner could get both shots in while tanking hits (if at full health) before the 5th swing ever connected, which meant ranged
weapons were beating the melee weapon in melee.

Conclusion.
The removed a lot of mechanics from the sword and made it a more mobile & punishing weapon that needs les effort now, compare to the shadow of what it used to be.

Which was a broken mess. Now it's actin a good place, sans hit-reg issues.

I dont want the sword to get nerfed into the ground. I want to see all the sword changes in recent years undone, to get the old glorious sword back that i used to love.

Not happening, so man up, pirate! The only way to glory is forward toward the horizon!

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:

@galactic-geek said in please rare nerf the sword:

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:
Stun lock only works if they get close, and if you have a sword yourself, you cam block-dodge out of it instantly.

It is a melee weapon, so ye it only works if you are close. And you should know by now, blocking hardly works in this game.

Blocking works for me all of the time. The only time it doesn't is when an enemy successfully flanks. In any case, if blocking is all you're doing, then it's no wonder you're dying. You have to block, move, dodge, and counter - it's not a fix-all Mary Sue.

As for the 5 to 4 hits change, they had to bring the sword's damage in line with the other weapons - prior to that change, any double-gunner could get both shots in while tanking hits (if at full health) before the 5th swing ever connected, which meant ranged
weapons were beating the melee weapon in melee.

The issue after removing the swords other mechanics were that you would get punished hard now with the slowdown on the third swing. it didnt need a damage buff after that slowdown got removed.

You just completely ignored why the change was made in the 1st place - reread my quote on this above.

Which was a broken mess. Now it's actin a good place, sans hit-reg issues.

The sword is kind off a mess now with how stupid it had become imo. it wasnt before as someone that used the sword all the time.
Nobody complained about the sword back then. Now almost everyone complains about it.

Most who complain are actually complaining about hit reg, or other networking issues, and not actually the sword itself - either that or they simply haven't yet learned how to properly counter it effectively. Most pirates just don't realize that they're blaming the wrong thing.

Not happening, so man up, pirate! The only way to glory is forward toward the horizon!

Nothing to do with manning up, the weapon used to be fun & complimented the use of the sword mechanics. yes part of the issues are server related, but i dont like the spam weapon it has become.

The sword used to launch you 50 ft. through the air and cancel into yet another charge; it used to allow you to continue combos on missed swings to maintain speed; it used to cancel all counter damage after the 1st hit; it used to stun you on contact regardless of block. It used to let you swap weapons and insta-fire for a kill. Trust me - pirates were complaining. The writing was on the wall, in Rare's case, literally...

How to fix the sword - let me count the ways said the top-most sticky note.

As for the so-called spam, it's a pointy stick - not exactly supposed to be hard to use... Mastering it, however? Whole other ball game. Avoiding spam is 1 of the easiest things in the world - simply keep moving, avoid tight places, pick your shots, bait your target, use all of your resources at hand, be mindful of your surroundings, rely on the hekpfulness of crewmates, and if you have a sword, block-dodge through them!

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:

@galactic-geek said in please rare nerf the sword:

Blocking works for me all of the time. The only time it doesn't is when an enemy successfully flanks. In any case, if blocking is all you're doing, then it's no wonder you're dying. You have to block, move, dodge, and counter - it's not a fix-all Mary Sue.

Then you must be the only one blessed with not getting the block reg.

I recognize when I'm beaten. I record any inconsistencies constantly and they always check out.

You just completely ignored why the change was made in the 1st place - reread my quote on this above.

No you just didnt understand my point.
My point to your post was that the sword didnt need a damage buff to be brought "in line" with the other weapons.

It did need it - I tested it then and now. You could have 2 pirates, 1 with sword and the other with double-gun, stand next to each other, and not moving; if they attacked simultaneously, double-gun would always win. If you tried the same test now, sword wins. That's as boiled down as you can make it.

With removal of bunny hopping with the sword, it suffered movement restrictions due to the slowdown on the third swing, thats why sword users struggled to keep up.

Bunny hopping was never removed - you can still do it. As for that 3rd swing, any hit to anything (even the ground) negated that penalty. You wanna talk about spam? They used to swing with wild abandon, even when nowhere close to their opponent; now they only do it when they think they're close enough.

And after that got removed it didnt need another buff to increased damage, since the mobility issue got "fixed".

Mobility and damage are 2 separate things and can be viewed and balanced separately; once that's done, they can then be viewed together in order to help balance combat as a whole, respective of their weapon's intended roles.

Most who complain are actually complaining about hit reg, or other networking issues, and not actually the sword itself - either that or they simply haven't yet learned how to properly counter it effectively. Most pirates just don't realize that they're blaming the wrong thing.

yes and no. Majority of the people complain about the sword being a spam weapon. Were do you think the m1 spam jokes come from?

Spam is a myth from the inexperienced, on both offense and defense.

The sword used to launch you 50 ft. through the air and cancel into yet another charge;

If you are talking about the sword lunge, you can still do that. You always had to hit you're target, it never canceled on its own.

I'm fairly certain that I have seen old footage that would disagree with that sentiment, especially since pointing the sword down and making contact with the ground counted as a hit.

it used to allow you to continue combos on missed swings to maintain speed;

now you can keep running after someone without the slowdown punishment of the third swing. so that removal didnt do anything.

Movement with sword was slower all-around prior to the speed increase, not just with the swing and a miss. I proved this back then by doing something I called a running sword slash (think sword block-dodge, but you tapped attack instead of jump) - it sped up your movement and gave you extra reach during an attack to make up for the prior block. I used it to great effect to beat virtually everyone, since 99% of pirates didn't even know of its existence. It's still there, but greatly diminished in utility due to the speed increase.

it used to cancel all counter damage after the 1st hit;

It didnt cancel out all damage for all i know, and used to use the sword all the time.
The only issue was not being able to ADS for a while if you got hit. but that finally got adressed not to long ago.

Not being able to ADS was a recent issue that was fixed, not an old 1 - I used to aim point blankwithbthe blunder mid-hit during my sword vs. double gun tests.

it used to stun you on contact regardless of block.

And now it hits you through to block. and it still stuns you, just less.

Yes less stun, but if it beats your block, then it's either a hit reg issue or they got around it (or both).

It used to let you swap weapons and insta-fire for a kill.

You just swapped topics here. That was the double gun insta double shot exploit.
Not a sword issue.

Technically, you could still swap and fire quickly from the sword, or come out swinging.

Avoiding spam is 1 of the easiest things in the world - simply keep moving avoid tight places, pick your shots, bait your target, use all of your resources at hand, be mindful of your surroundings, rely on the hekpfulness of crewmates, and if you have a sword, block-dodge through them!

Saying things is always easy. But in reality & all cases (sword or not) this scenario you describe isnt as easy as you make it out to be.
Yes against an open crew it would be a piece of cake. But now execute it on a challeging, competent pvp/arena crew all using swords.

Double-gunning isn't and never has been a crew killer. It's typically best in 1v1 scenarios. If you're up against a crew, it's always going to be harder, which is why skill came into play in numerous clutches.

Hitreg is a thing on the sword block and guns, swords have 20 meter range because servers, they can keep chasing you forever, you have to reload, you have to get ammunition. You have to get to safity to eat food while getting chased.

Or you could rely on teamwork, coordinate your fire, and instantly kill them. Also, bombs...

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:

@galactic-geek said in please rare nerf the sword:

I recognize when I'm beaten. I record any inconsistencies constantly and they always check out.

Didnt say you would never lose.

It did need it - I tested it then and now.

Just because you alone tested it wich doesnt prove anything, doesnt mean it needed it because you say so. It definetly did not need it.

You could have 2 pirates, 1 with sword and the other with double-gun, stand next to each other, and not moving; if they attacked simultaneously, double-gun would always win.

You do know nobody is ever going to stand still right? everyone is going to move as much to their ability until they find the right opening. This test didnt prove anything at all imo.

Testing has to eliminate variables - that's what I did. Movement was a variable; I was testing time to kill, or TTK, something which is in a lot of games and is always a consideration when it comes to balance. My test was sound.

Bunny hopping was never removed - you can still do it. As for that 3rd swing, any hit to anything (even the ground) negated that penalty.

That is not the bunny hopping were talking about.
The old one was way better. You had to sword lunge, hit the ground first, and if you then missed youre target you need to follow up with block, jump, block, jump, to keep moving. You cant do it as it got removed with a patch around november 2019.

That wasn't a mechanic; it was an unintended exploit - just like the double gun exploit. Besides, do you not hear how absurdly difficult that sounds just explaining how to do it? Why would any game developer create a mechanic that difficult to do? If it was intended, it would have been far easier to do.

You wanna talk about spam? They used to swing with wild abandon, even when nowhere close to their opponent; now they only do it when they think they're close enough.

no they do it all the time, its nothing but people chasing and swinging at you.

Only from the inexperienced or desperate; those with skill only attack as needed - to them, it's more like a dance of rhythm and timing. Those who spam are akin to button-mashers in fighting games - it may get them a win or 2, but they'll never reach the top of the leaderboards or reach tournament play. Take it from a tournament-level Killer Instinct player. ☺️

Mobility and damage are 2 separate things and can be viewed and balanced separately; once that's done, they can then be viewed together in order to help balance combat as a whole, respective of their weapon's intended roles.

Once you implement a balance change you need to observe and review if another change is needed or not, not just keep buffing it when it doesnt need it anymore.

I actually agree with you here - even back then, they implemented so many sword and weapon changes all at once, even I was left thinking, "wait, what? Why?" But unlike some old salty-dog pirates, I adjusted.

Spam is a myth from the inexperienced, on both offense and defense.

Here you dont know what you're talking about (no offense).
The "Myth" comes from former realy good sword all players, before all the changes came into play. They used all the sword mechanics had to offer and were one of the best sword players. They say it because they are frustrated as off what the sword has become and how stupidly easy it is to use now, mainly because "people chase and m1 spam".

Again, not a mechanic (see above). Those who used it weren't skillful at all; they were just willing to do anything to win (no honor among Thieves eh?). Yes, the sword has become easier to use, but that's not a bad thing. It allows for accessibility, and enjoyment with younger, less skilled pirates. Those who are still willing to put in the work though and that dive deep into timing, placement, coordination, use of all of their resources, etc.? They are the ones who really succeed.

I'm fairly certain that I have seen old footage that would disagree with that sentiment, especially since pointing the sword down and making contact with the ground counted as a hit.

Yes that was the bunny hopping technique if not mistaken, it got removed at november 2019.

Movement with sword was slower all-around prior to the speed increase, not just with the swing and a miss. I proved this back then by doing something I called a running sword slash (think sword block-dodge, but you tapped attack instead of jump) - it sped up your movement and gave you extra reach during an attack to make up for the prior block. I used it to great effect to beat virtually everyone, since 99% of pirates didn't even know of its existence. It's still there, but greatly diminished in utility due to the speed increase.

I dont think ive heard this one, or maybe forgotten.

Try it (block+move+tap attack)! It's still there, but it's barely noticeable, and still gives a slight advantage, both in speed and reach. If you look at another pirate do it while moving sideways, it almost looks like they're sliding or ice-skating. If you try to combo it, you'll see your pirate slow down on the 2nd and 3rd attack. I still use it to get around blocks. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if this is how most pirates get past a block - they just don't realize that they're doing it (or are on the receiving end when blocking themselves).

Not being able to ADS was a recent issue that was fixed, not an old 1 - I used to aim point blankwithbthe blunder mid-hit during my sword vs. double gun tests.

It was a bug that was in the game for a while, but wasnt as bad as it was recently.

Yes less stun, but if it beats your block, then it's either a hit reg issue or they got around it (or both).

yep.

Technically, you could still swap and fire quickly from the sword, or come out swinging.

Yes. but nobody would use it for that.

They did. Sword damage used to be 20%, so 1 3 hit combo + 1 shot had a faster TTK than 1 3 hit combo + 1 2 hit combo.

Everyone would use double guns exploit over swapping quickly for a sword.

Not those of us who believed in a fair fight and that didn't abuse the exploits.

Double-gunning isn't and never has been a crew killer.

But it has been for a while now, if you know your movement, and practiced you're aim.

It largely depends on the skill of the opposing crew, but in a testing environment, you get 2 shots before you're left vulnerable to attack from the opposition due to long reload times, and that's only enough to kill 1 pirate, not 4.

It's typically best in 1v1 scenarios. If you're up against a crew, it's always going to be harder, which is why skill came into play in numerous clutches.

Aye.

Or you could rely on teamwork, coordinate your fire, and instantly kill them. Also, bombs...

Again, its easy to say these things, but performing, or "instantly killing them" is another tale.

That's why practice makes better. 😉

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:

@galactic-geek said in please rare nerf the sword:

Testing has to eliminate variables - that's what I did. Movement was a variable; I was testing time to kill, or TTK, something which is in a lot of games and is always a consideration when it comes to balance. My test was sound.

If you're going to test, you should do it in a real scenario & not set things up and create scenarios that would hardly ever happen. Do legit tests, dont set them up. Otherwise the test doesnt hold any weight.

Most tests are done in labs and under controlled conditions for a reason. When testing, you test for specifics. A real scenario doesn't allow for much control, and as such don't "hold any weight."

That wasn't a mechanic; it was an unintended exploit - just like the double gun exploit. Besides, do you not hear how absurdly difficult that sounds just explaining how to do it? Why would any game developer create a mechanic that difficult to do? If it was intended, it would have been far easier to do.

It was still a bunny hopping technique. exploit or not.
There are plenty of developers creating hard games with tough mechanics. Like that game "i wanna be the boshy", that game has tought boss mechanics you have to figure out.
It would be pretty boring if there is no learning curve.

True - some fighting games have had difficult setups, such as combos and ⬇️↘️➡️✊️, but even they have been streamlined in numerous cases to allow for a larger audience - for example the above is often now just ⬇️➡️✊️.

However, devs need to strike a balance between accessibility and challenge. I think Rare has done that.

Only from the inexperienced or desperate; those with skill only attack as needed - to them, it's more like a dance of rhythm and timing. Those who spam are akin to button-mashers in fighting games - it may get them a win or 2, but they'll never reach the top of the leaderboards or reach tournament play. Take it from a tournament-level Killer Instinct player. ☺️

Thats why SoT is not a competitive game. And as of why sword spamming sadly works.

It never intended to be - only the community wanted it; not the devs. Sword spam doesn't work against anyone worth their salt. Blocking beats it, and dodging through your opponent during the block makes it useless. I do this all of the time, and by the time they know what's happened, I'm already circling their flank.

Again, not a mechanic (see above). Those who used it weren't skillful at all; they were just willing to do anything to win (no honor among Thieves eh?). Yes, the sword has become easier to use, but that's not a bad thing. It allows for accessibility, and enjoyment with younger, less skilled pirates. Those who are still willing to put in the work though and that dive deep into timing, placement, coordination, use of all of their resources, etc.? They are the ones who really succeed.

Again you dont know what you're talking about.
These people were deffinetly skillfull, and ive seen it first hand. "They were exploiters, so they are bad", youve never seen this play at hand or know how it works, so how can you judge them as so, when they clearly werent.

Never seen it? I used to beat it! All of the time! I have only ever met 1 sword fighter in a 1v1 duel that I considered more skillful than me back in the day (and I fought hundreds), and the hand of God (a lightning strike, actually) struck him down mid-charge before he could finish me.

Some of these players still use the sword from time to time, and use whats left of the sword (not m1 spamming) and still outplay almost any other sword user.

Not me. 😆

The sword lunge wasnt intended at first either, yet rare rolled with it afterwards and it got scratched of the list of being an exploit. Same for portal hopping.

It's a contextual issue. Just because 1 is okay doesn't mean that the others should be okay too. It's a case by case basis. As for portal hopping, it's not off of the list yet - Rare has admited to keeping a close eye on it.

Just because something wasnt intended doesnt mean people will abuse it to win, or simply use it to gain an advantage (yes there are these people that will use anything to win).
Very little people used it because it hardly gave you an advantage, because it took a lot practice and lot of skillfull movement to pull it off (compared to the insta double gun exploit).

I could never do it, nor could I do the DGE. That inherently makes it unfair. Both sides should be on equal footing from the start to determine true skill (get it? That's why a lot of matchmaking in games use True Skill). Using something such as an exploit that isn't intended is therefore simply being cheap. That's why games like Killer Instinct did so well for so long - it allowed for a back and forth that other fighting games didn't, so it still remained fun for all involved. SoT does virtually the same thing, or at least tries to.

These tricks gave the sword a lot of depth. People actualy moved around, came at each when they saw an opening while sword hopping around each other, while clashing swords, sword hopping through each other to get at their backs, bunny hopping to gain distance and retreat.

It was an actual sword fight.

But it didn't look or feel like 1, so no I disagree with you here. Pirates didn't go flying off the rails during sword fights.

Try it (block+move+tap attack)! It's still there, but it's barely noticeable, and still gives a slight advantage, both in speed and reach. If you look at another pirate do it while moving sideways, it almost looks like they're sliding or ice-skating. If you try to combo it, you'll see your pirate slow down on the 2nd and 3rd attack. I still use it to get around blocks. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if this is how most pirates get past a block - they just don't realize that they're doing it (or are on the receiving end when blocking themselves).

Wait...
You're exploiting?!

No, I was using the block button as a built-in modifier - an intended mechanic (blocking slows movement, so doing something while holding it sped some things up to compensate - it's also how the advanced charge still works). It was simply 1 mechanic that nobody talked about or really even knew about. Rare knows about it, of course, but since when have they ever held any pirate's hand? They wanted us to figure this out!

They did. Sword damage used to be 20%, so 1 3 hit combo + 1 shot had a faster TTK than 1 3 hit combo + 1 2 hit combo.

The majority still used the double gun with killed someone in a split second. As of why almost the whole forum complained like they do today about PvP being in the game.

Actually, most of "the forum" in my experience seem to prefer PvEvP. And no, double-gunners are not the majority; it's just the perceived popular choice (or loud minority) because of streamers' influence - Summit1G, in particular.

Not those of us who believed in a fair fight and that didn't abuse the exploits.

But you just admitted to exploiting earlier.
Exploits doesnt always mean getting an advantage, the sword was proof of that.

Not an exploit - a built-in mechanic that has never been addressed by the devs 1 way or the other. I have mentioned it here for years, but it's still there. I wonder why that is? 🤔

Could it perhaps be because it was intended? 😏

@cpt-sockmonster said in please rare nerf the sword:

@galactic-geek said in please rare nerf the sword:

Most tests are done in labs and under controlled conditions for a reason. When testing, you test for specifics. A real scenario doesn't allow for much control, and as such don't "hold any weight."

This is not a labratory, were things have to be setup. This is a game, were things need to be balanced based of off real scenarios. People need to try & fight to see if something is broken or unbeatable, and not stand still.

Four basic components that affect the validity of an experiment are the control, independent and dependent variables, and constants. These basic requirements need to be present and identified to consider an experiment valid.

True - some fighting games have had difficult setups, such as combos and ⬇️↘️➡️✊️, but even they have been streamlined in numerous cases to allow for a larger audience - for example the above is often now just ⬇️➡️✊️.

Still, not all the time. There have even been cases for speedrunners, were the dev reverted a bug fix, just for the sake of the speedrunners community, so they can keep pulling of their tricks.

Speedrunning is just another case of grinding - pirates too busy trying to complete things too quickly for the sake of being the best instead of just enjoying their time upon the Sea.

However, devs need to strike a balance between accessibility and challenge. I think Rare has done that.

They have yet too.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Only from the inexperienced or desperate; those with skill only attack as needed - to them, it's more like a dance of rhythm and timing. Those who spam are akin to button-mashers in fighting games - it may get them a win or 2, but they'll never reach the top of the leaderboards or reach tournament play. Take it from a tournament-level Killer Instinct player. ☺️

That is why these players were realy good no matter what playstyle they used. Either swordplay or gun fights.

They may have been skilled, certainly, but they weren't legitimate; it's almost akin to cheating (like doping in the Olympics). There is always going to be a right way and a wrong way to do things, and they chose wrong.

It never intended to be - only the community wanted it; not the devs. Sword spam doesn't work against anyone worth their salt. Blocking beats it, and dodging through your opponent during the block makes it useless. I do this all of the time, and by the time they know what's happened, I'm already circling their flank.

Blocking beats it 50% of the time thanks to reg.

This is an oversimplification. Blocking doesn't work at all if you get behind them - remember, blocking only works from the front, and since blocking slows you down, it's far too easy to flank. Hit teg only exacerbates that.

Never seen it? I used to beat it! All of the time! I have only ever met 1 sword fighter in a 1v1 duel that I considered more skillful than me back in the day (and I fought hundreds), and the hand of God (a lightning strike, actually) struck him down mid-charge before he could finish me.

So i dont think you have seen this playstyle, or maybe you tought you met one that attempted to pull of this kind of play. Because encountering that playstyle in adventure was very very rare. I never encountered one of them at all, only in arena i did once in a while. Because like i said, there were very few that knew these tricks.
Saying you never lost even once is a very very far stretch, nobody would believe that.
Sure nobody is unbeatable, but saying you won against great players all the time? That would be me saying "I never lost in a single gunfight to any arena tdmer".

I really have encountered them. You're right, though - I was boasting a bit. I was referring only to pirates back then, and in 1v1 scenarios. It's probably like 5 - I was always challenged to a duel on a beach so they could show me how to do it. I was supposed to show them my methods in return. Between the 2 (with the 1 lightning bolt exception mentioned above), my method ALWAYS won out.

Not me. 😆

I dont think you've ever met these players before. Ive played a ton of arena, got all my commendations, ive seen how good these players are first hand in Tdm's. I dont know if you're acting way & way to cocky, or you're the sweatiest arena player out there.

Neither. I have met them - and it was long before Arena was even a thing.

It's a contextual issue. Just because 1 is okay doesn't mean that the others should be okay too. It's a case by case basis. As for portal hopping, it's not off of the list yet - Rare has admited to keeping a close eye on it.

That doesnt mean its an exploit at the moment. I just wish they would remove the emmisary flag when going through the portal.

I'm in agreement with the flag removal.

I could never do it, nor could I do the DGE. That inherently makes it unfair. Both sides should be on equal footing from the start to determine true skill (get it? That's why a lot of matchmaking in games use True Skill).

Nobody is ever going to be on equal footing in this game. Some players wil always be better then the other. Exploits or not.
One crew wil always have more supplies then the other.
One crew wil always have a bigger ship then the other, etc etc.

I said, from the start - there, everyone is on equal footing. Key difference there.

Using something such as an exploit that isn't intended is therefore simply being cheap. That's why games like Killer Instinct did so well for so long - it allowed for a back and forth that other fighting games didn't, so it still remained fun for all involved. SoT does virtually the same thing, or at least tries to.

Just because something might be an exploit, doesnt mean its cheap, and again the sword was proof of it, if only you knew how the mechanics worked for these difficult tricks.

I didn't really care to learn them all of that much, because I understood that they were unintended and were therefore likely going to be removed. If they weren't removed, then I likely would have stopped sailing long ago. And for the record, using an exploit is the very definition of cheap, if not outright cheating.

But it didn't look or feel like 1, so no I disagree with you here. Pirates didn't go flying off the rails during sword fights.

flying of the rails during sword fights? Yes were definetly not talking about the same sword combat here. Because it definetly was a great sword display.

I was referring to real pirates and real sword fights - even in pirate fantasy, pirates didn't fly; just ask Pan and Hook.