True. In arena it was though, made or break a some last second chest grabs on occasion.
Sword Spam - Fix the Sword
@cotu42 said in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
Of all the people, the fact that you make a statement of that the sword has no skill... the irony of such a statement is astonishing.
Therefore let me inform you how the so-called skilled pirates, which you always claimed to be one yourself from the very beginning and pointing at others it is their skill, even in this very thread, is what is lacking. The old skill I am speaking of is the skill to choose your swings wisely and the ability to dodge blows to use their miss to your advantage. How this in essence has been nerfed into the ground, where now pirates are not very concerned about mindlessly slashing away at all. This is mainly felt when dealing with multiple targets; as most fights are not 1v1. For the record, if you land your hits you won't be affected... so your claims of wanting to nerf the 3 combo is just a false statement; if your swings land, nothing is changing based on what I suggest.
This is a skill I might state that has literally nothing to do with any exploits that were/are in the game. It is purely about simply choosing when to swing, how to move to make others miss their swing and how to use the shift in momentum that was the effect of this to create positional advantages between you and even multiple opponents. You claim that such a punishment is insignificant in close quarters, as one should hit their blows at that range and yet this is where that skill shined, where the difference between pirates became clear. Where aspects like dodge jumping, precision movement, swing choices and all that contributed to the dance we had. It has now been reduced to, either defense, block and jump or offense, swing away.
Additionally I find it flabbergasting that you claim that it is widely accepted that if you get boarded, it's essentially over! While you claim to be a master of the sword, able to deal with multiple opponents at once... the blunderbomb is the only defense? Because the only alternative is "Well, dying" Is this not simply a conceding statement where you admit that your tactics of dealing with the sword spam and tornado are all ineffective.
It does not matter whether you are on their ship or they are on yours. If your tactics were so trusted and proven, you would be able to deal with them regardless. All you did here is concede to the whole point people are making, if multiple people rush you on deck... your sword dodge isn't going to get you out of it. While I used to be able to cause people to miss a swing, sword dodge and weave between them. As I could gain distance on part of the group and battle it out one at a time while kiting them... it was hard, but it was where my skill would show.
You ignored my query: What would you change?
@cotu42 Why must you make such long posts that force me into making long replies but can6without splitting g it up due to the broken nature of the forums? I have to constantly edit! 😣
I will break this down, piece by piece into multiple posts. Be patient, and don't respond until I'm done (I'll let you know when that is).
Of all the people, the fact that you make a statement of that the sword has no skill... the irony of such a statement is astonishing
You take my meaning out of context. The sword itself has no skills; it's just a weapon; it's wielder is who has the skill, because the wielder is a person, and not an object.
Pirates back in the day lacked skill due to their over-reliance on exploits and imbalanced gameplay. Nowadays, it's because of general ignorance and their unwillingness to think critically of themselves, or to attempt new ideas - they stick with what they think works, and then blame everything else and never fault themselves.
The old skill I am speaking of is the skill to choose your swings wisely and the ability to dodge blows to use their miss to your advantage. How this in essence has been nerfed into the ground, where now pirates are not very concerned about mindlessly slashing away at all. This is mainly felt when dealing with multiple targets; as most fights are not 1v1. For the record, if you land your hits you won't be affected... so your claims of wanting to nerf the 3 combo is just a false statement; if your swings land, nothing is changing based on what I suggest.
You can still choose your swings wisely, force them to miss, and and take advantage of that - the window is just much narrower, which keeps combat frantic and fast-paced. You not only have to think about what you're doing, you have to do so incredibly quickly.
Mindlessly slashing only works when the defense lets it happen. If you're not blocking AND dodging out of the way, of course you're going to be stuck. Being outnumbered will always be a more difficult fight, regardless of skill - that's an acceptable fact. If you put yourself in that situation, you should expect it. If you don't, then you only have your own ignorance or hubris to blame.
You can still escape swings that land, so the "spam" doesn't actually matter.
This is a skill I might state that has literally nothing to do with any exploits that were/are in the game. It is purely about simply choosing when to swing, how to move to make others miss their swing and how to use the shift in momentum that was the effect of this to create positional advantages between you and even multiple opponents. You claim that such a punishment is insignificant in close quarters, as one should hit their blows at that range and yet this is where that skill shined, where the difference between pirates became clear. Where aspects like dodge jumping, precision movement, swing choices and all that contributed to the dance we had. It has now been reduced to, either defense, block and jump or offense, swing away.
Dodge jumping, precision movement, swing choices, etc. all still contribute to the dance and are the very reasons skill still exists. Your assessment of what we have now ignores this fact. You can do a lot more on defense than just block and jump, and you can do a lot more on offense than just swinging away.
Defense: Block, jump, dodge, retreat, heal, take cover, etc.
Offense: Slash, charge, counter, parry, shoot, chase, bait, flank, team-up, etc.Sword requires less skill than guns... Kinda... Let me explain.
As in a nut shell, gun play goes like: Shoot, take cover, shoot and win, Where as sword play is supposed to be more tactical, Block and wait for a window when your opponent makes an mistake or gives you opportunity to do a quick hit on him * . So where gunning requires more mechanical skill, sword play is more complex and requires tactical (and mechanical but not as much) so Sword play should take "more skill" right? Wrong.
As hit reg is what it is you can't fight fast melee combat tactically as the game gives you so many mixed or wrong messages of what your opponent is doing. Here's an old clip which tells what I'm trying to say here: (Yes it's an old one but hitreg hasn't gone into any better situation from it)
Piece of gold that I found so not my clip: In his case he didn't die because his opponent was more skilled or knowing than him but because of backtrack. ( in no way I'm saying his opponent in no way could had been better than him but what I'm saying is he didn't lose for being outplayed but because of known bug)
So let's break it down (top oné [my clip]) (not all issues there are but ones that matter the most)
At the start I take one hit so -25hp but block his next hit, Then I as a dumb being try to hit him through his hit as he didn't get combo going one and thought I would hit him and prevent him from hitting me but fail and lose another 50hp leaving me at 25hp/ one swing. Then I do what I would consider "skilled", I use my knowledge. So he has hit me two times and combo is only 3 hits before a short break during which I should be able to heal and move to better ground . Even though my character doesn't do his block animation you can still see and hear it happen. As it was his 3rd hit on his combo there should be a short window in which he shouldn't be able to hit but for some reason he manages to get "4th combo hit" which of course goes through as I had put down my block as he shouldn't had been able to hit me.
Did I lose because he was "more skilled than me?" Probably I would had but we will never know as in this case it wasn't hes mechanical or tactical skill which killed me at the end but an "hitreg issue" or what ever it was as he shouldn't had been able to get 4th combo hit on me as it's not a thing.
TL:DR reason sword "requires less skill (in my opinion)" is that it's not always about your tactical skill which it should work around as server send you mixed messages which may result in you thinking he shouldn't hit you or that you should be able to hit him.
Memories from my past.
When I started I was a sword user. I think I was decent with it as I remember outplaying opponents with it. I remember time when I boarded an galleon and acted passively on their ship and made a friend of the helms men while his crew tried to "sneak behind and kill me with swords". back then I assume reg wasn't as bad as I was able to out play them by blocking and maneuvering around the ship and by that dodging their hits. I only fell of when I did an miscalculated sword lunge.
Something I have wanted to share as it still bring a smile up on my face from time when sword wasn't buggy mess and actually required skill to play with/ against without reg issues changing the fight into another's favor.
Another memory
Last summer me and my crew were Tdm:ing in arena. I decided to take a sword duel against one of the. I lose it. Next day we take a re-match in which I absolutely demolished him over and over again. Did he win because he was more skilled and outplayed me but forgot or lost his touch the next day? Nah the first time server was bad ish for me where as on the other server the next day everything was smooth as butter for me allowing me to play around him more easily and look for mistakes without having to deal with delayed hits / reg issues.
The latest memory which about reg
On enemy galleon's middle deck, I heal at cannonball crates. Soulflame walking towards me spamming sword. hes far away and has finished his swing so I don't see a reason to move. after his animation end I take damage from it even though he doesn't get combo.
Additionally I find it flabbergasting that you claim that it is widely accepted that if you get boarded, it's essentially over! While you claim to be a master of the sword, able to deal with multiple opponents at once... the blunderbomb is the only defense? Because the only alternative is "Well, dying" Is this not simply a conceding statement where you admit that your tactics of dealing with the sword spam and tornado are all ineffective.
This is a generalization, not a fact. Boarding isn't the end, it just is in most cases, because of its powerful distraction. I have succeeded in taking back my ship, but usually only because they're not sinking me. Your death always gives the boarding party the advantage.
I also never said that the blunderbomb was the only defense - it just happens to be a decent 1 when outnumbered and surrounded because, while it's certainly risky, it can give you space, time, can hurt multiple pirates at once, and can also potentially knock them off of your ship when on deck. That's a lot of positives if you ask me. 1 of the most underrated weapons, pirates have a bad habit of throwing it directly at their opponent rather than using its directional properties (such as throwing it in front of them to knock them away, behind them to draw them in closer, or to the side to knock them sideways off of the ship).
@galactic-geek sagte in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
This is a skill I might state that has literally nothing to do with any exploits that were/are in the game. It is purely about simply choosing when to swing, how to move to make others miss their swing and how to use the shift in momentum that was the effect of this to create positional advantages between you and even multiple opponents. You claim that such a punishment is insignificant in close quarters, as one should hit their blows at that range and yet this is where that skill shined, where the difference between pirates became clear. Where aspects like dodge jumping, precision movement, swing choices and all that contributed to the dance we had. It has now been reduced to, either defense, block and jump or offense, swing away.
Dodge jumping, precision movement, swing choices, etc. all still contribute to the dance and are the very reasons skill still exists. Your assessment of what we have now ignores this fact. You can do a lot more on defense than just block and jump, and you can do a lot more on offense than just swinging away.
Defense: Block, jump, dodge, retreat, heal, take cover, etc.
Offense: Slash, charge, counter, parry, shoot, chase, bait, flank, team-up, etc.While that's true as concept, thanks to an ever-locked FOV of 90, most sword fights will still be resolved around by who strikes first and jump-spams more successfully.
That dodge-jump is not going to do much as the opponent can immediately close in again afterwards and the block is easily circumvented all the time.
One easy trick that'll always give the opponent a hard time to counter. This game is really not deep about anything in combat, same for the guns.If you really want to have a classy sword fight with more blocking, caution and counter-attacking involved, from my experience, you basically need to retreat into the sloop's hold everytime where we have so many obstacles and walls that people can no longer high jump behind/around you and move through you much anymore.
All you did here is concede to the whole point people are making, if multiple people rush you on deck... your sword dodge isn't going to get you out of it. While I used to be able to cause people to miss a swing, sword dodge and weave between them. As I could gain distance on part of the group and battle it out one at a time while kiting them... it was hard, but it was where my skill would show.
I didn't say it was full proof; just that it can. What you just described is still possible, especially with the sword dodge - you dodge through them, get a few hits in while kiting them. They'll be too bust turning around trying to find you. The problem is once pirates do this, they have a tendency to stay put until their opponents counter and that's what gets them killed. Instead of slashing until they hopefully die, it might be more prudent to hit them once or twice and then dodge again to keep them guessing.
IMO, the biggest problem is that pirates don't generally move, or move enough - especially when they go on the offensive.
Thanks for providing videos. That’s the kind of garbage I’m talking about.
So many times I get the FIRST HIT, yet somehow my opponent strikes me during it and manages to instead get me stun in a 3-hit stunlock. It’s not his skill, because often it’s a day one noob that got lucky.
Also, those insane ranged hits…they happen far too often. I know that’s server de-sync/hit-reg.
And yeah. Hit-reg wasn’t a problem really at launch, it popped up around…I wanna say cursed sails or forsaken shores.I like what you said in the first half. There’s several factors at play that make the current system feel less than fair.
You ignored my query: What would you change?
I haven't ignored it - I have just been thinking very carefully how to answer it.
I would:
1.) slightly increase the range of movement during a sword dodge.
2.) slightly increase the delay after the 3rd combo swing, regardless of hitbor miss.
3.) temporarily and slightly increase the speed of a running sword slash (block+move+tap attack) during the initial strike to make it more viable.
4.) make the advanced charge (block+hold attack) the standard and only kind of charge.That's it (for now).
Not bad thoughts. I still think the damage should go back to 20%. Once double tap was fixed, the sword performed just fine against double-gunners. It was double-tap that made them OP in comparison. I think 20% damage on a weapon that has no ammo and can be spammed(but shouldn’t be) is perfectly acceptable and viable. That would mean a full 3-hit combo would leave them vulnerable to a death from a pistol still too.
@limend Great analysis and observations, but I can see where you made a critical mistake, even after the ones you alreadymentioned. You lost the fight in the initial clip because on the final (4th) hit, you're only sidestepping, and due to the wide slash of the sword, you were still hit. By now, knowing how brief the delay is in between combos, you should have adapted by maintaining your block, and dodging to get behind him where his swing is far less likely to hit you and where you have more space as your back is no longer against the railing. The trick is not to wait during the block, but to react and dodge immediately, the moment the 1st attack is blocked. As a pirate, it's always better to have the advantage and stab them in the back.
@trial0n said in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
While that's true as concept, thanks to an ever-locked FOV of 90, most sword fights will still be resolved around by who strikes first and jump-spams more successfully.
Generally yes, but a good defense can counter that 1st strike to gain the advantage, and jump spam is easy to avoid by simply moving in the oppositedirection of their jump.
That dodge-jump is not going to do much as the opponent can immediately close in again afterwards and the block is easily circumvented all the time.
They're vulnerable and predictable upon landing. The block is circumvent by jumps because the block angle only goes so far up and down. To maintain the block, you have to look up and down along with their jump to keep them front and center.
One easy trick that'll always give the opponent a hard time to counter. This game is really not deep about anything in combat, same for the guns.
It's deeper than most realize.
If you really want to have a classy sword fight with more blocking, caution and counter-attacking involved, from my experience, you basically need to retreat into the sloop's hold everytime where we have so many obstacles and walls that people can no longer high jump behind/around you and move through you much anymore.
You typically want to retreat down there to heal or to bait. A smart crew wouldn't even follow - they'd just shoot you through the grate.
You lost the fight in the initial clip because on the final (4th) hit, you're only sidestepping, and due to the wide slash of the sword, you were still hit.
Yeah now as I watched it again I understood, even though you called me out of that last time I brought up this clip... 6-8 months ago?
But the point I tried to make was that 4th hit in a combo is and never has been a thing so it was a hit reg issue to which I died. Even though If I hadn't died to it I would definitely had died to him anyway.I won't probably use the cutlass in PvP until they fix most of the issues it has but the day they do, I will definitely use tips you provided :)
@salerio said in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
Thanks for providing videos. That’s the kind of garbage I’m talking about.
So many times I get the FIRST HIT, yet somehow my opponent strikes me during it and manages to instead get me stun in a 3-hit stunlock. It’s not his skill, because often it’s a day one noob that got lucky.
Also, those insane ranged hits…they happen far too often. I know that’s server de-sync/hit-reg.
And yeah. Hit-reg wasn’t a problem really at launch, it popped up around…I wanna say cursed sails or forsaken shores.The 1st clip is entirely user error. The 2nd is legit hit-reg/desync as you and others have already stated.
@salerio said in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
Not bad thoughts. I still think the damage should go back to 20%.
That would make double-gunning the meta again.
Once double tap was fixed, the sword performed just fine against double-gunners.
False, for reasons I have already explained regarding TtK ratios.
It was double-tap that made them OP in comparison. I think 20% damage on a weapon that has no ammo and can be spammed(but shouldn’t be) is perfectly acceptable and viable. That would mean a full 3-hit combo would leave them vulnerable to a death from a pistol still too.
You completely ignore the fact that firearms could be drawn quickly too, regardless of whether or not they performed the double-tap, or "double-gun" exploit. This means that I could hit you with a Sword combo for 60 damage and quickdraw into a shot that would instantly kill you (minimum 50 damage) instead of having to wait for 2 more slashes on the next combo. The reverse was also true - I could snipe you for 80 damage and then quick-swap to sword for a 1-hit KO.
@limend You're right, you probably would have died to him anyways, but that's because of your initial mistake, which you recognized, where you were hit twice. The moment you got hit the 1st time, you probably should have blocked, but your reaction time was slowed due to your genuine surprise at what was happening. It's that delay and the compounding mistakes that sent you to the Ferry.
I didn't say it was full proof; just that it can. What you just described is still possible, especially with the sword dodge - you dodge through them, get a few hits in while kiting them. They'll be too bust turning around trying to find you. The problem is once pirates do this, they have a tendency to stay put until their opponents counter and that's what gets them killed. Instead of slashing until they hopefully die, it might be more prudent to hit them once or twice and then dodge again to keep them guessing.
IMO, the biggest problem is that pirates don't generally move, or move enough - especially when they go on the offensive.
What I describe is not possible unless they are complete noodles of fighters, I know because I stand on both sides of this equation... your own last sentence showcases the exact reason as well; Movement! The game doesn't create space if someone simply keeps moving properly while swinging, there is no gap created, there is no space and you can dodge all you want... if simply one of them moves or turn quick enough 'to busy turning around trying to find you?' How bad are those that you face? Like I can still wipe noob crews, but that is not what I want the games combat to be balanced around. I want to be able to play skillfully against decent players and that it matters.
The fact that you state that you use a blunderbomb or simply die, really showcases this as well. Your swordsmanship isn't what is getting you out of the situation of people rushing you with swords while wildly swinging.
1.) slightly increase the range of movement during a sword dodge.
Why does the dodge need a buff? It is already one of the strongest tools in our belt. I believe if you make it even stronger it just out of proportion.
2.) slightly increase the delay after the 3rd combo swing, regardless of hitbor miss.
Why punish those that land their blows? Additionally the issue with spam is not the 3rd strike of the combo, it is the ability to miss without any real punishment. The majority of complaints are about the initial strike, not the follow up. When facing multiple enemies it isn't the 3rd strike in the combo that you fear or that you have issues with... if they are all able to stay in close proximity, this has no effect at all. This is a change that affects 1v1 or the person that is outnumbered who relies on more hits.
3.) temporarily and slightly increase the speed of a running sword slash (block+move+tap attack) during the initial strike to make it more viable.
This I could stand by, as in I see no issues with such an adjustment, as I can do this... as I personally only see this as viable if you are the one chasing as it is. While once again the majority of complaints of sword spam is not when you are the one running after someone.
4.) make the advanced charge (block+hold attack) the standard and only kind of charge.
Why would you diminish the variety available to a pirate? The non-block variant has its uses.
That's it (for now).
How do any of these suggestions address the main issue people have with the sword, simply running at you while wildly swinging your sword.
You cannot make it 20%, the problem with it being at 20 damage per strike is that one can shoot, hit, tank the sword, reload and shoot again. As @galactic-geek points out it is the TTK difference including a reload that made the increase to 25% the solution. A good gunner should be able to kite long enough to reload and shoot. This is also why the sword spam is hated even more, as missing a swing doesn't apply pressure on the one swinging... while the gunner is punished harsh for a miss on their end; as they don't only use ammo, they need to reload.
What I describe is not possible unless they are complete noodles of fighters, I know because I stand on both sides of this equation... your own last sentence showcases the exact reason as well; Movement! The game doesn't create space if someone simply keeps moving properly while swinging, there is no gap created, there is no space and you can dodge all you want... if simply one of them moves or turn quick enough 'to busy turning around trying to find you?' How bad are those that you face?
Most of my opponents are bad, or at least worse. You're also right about the movement, but that's why you don't move with them. If you dodge away from them, you're still technically moving with them because they'll simply continue to push towards you. However, if you dodge through them, then you're creating space as they continue to move forward and have to take the time to stop and turn around to adjust their movement. This buys you the time to turn around mid-dodge and gain the advantage for another hit or to keep them guessing.
The fact that you state that you use a blunderbomb or simply die, really showcases this as well. Your swordsmanship isn't what is getting you out of the situation of people rushing you with swords while wildly swinging.
Swords don't win every fight - no weapon does. That's kind of the point.
1.) slightly increase the range of movement during a sword dodge.
Why does the dodge need a buff? It is already one of the strongest tools in our belt. I believe if you make it even stronger it just out of proportion.
Possibly, but it hasn't been tested yet.
2.) slightly increase the delay after the 3rd combo swing, regardless of hitbor miss.
Why punish those that land their blows? Additionally the issue with spam is not the 3rd strike of the combo, it is the ability to miss without any real punishment.
I suggested this adjustment just to favor all of those who complain about spam and that's literally it - even on hit, many will still complain about spam. Do you really think it would stop only on a miss? It won't.
The majority of complaints are about the initial strike, not the follow up. When facing multiple enemies it isn't the 3rd strike in the combo that you fear or that you have issues with... if they are all able to stay in close proximity, this has no effect at all. This is a change that affects 1v1, nothing else.
If it's the initial strike that matters why am I not hearing complaints about single blows or sword cancels? It's because pirates aren't doing them. It's not a matter of which strike - just the continuation of it; that's what so many pirates in this thread are complaining about.
3.) temporarily and slightly increase the speed of a running sword slash (block+move+tap attack) during the initial strike to make it more viable.
This I could stand by, as in I see no issues with such an adjustment, as I can do this... as I personally only see this as viable if you are the one chasing as it is. While once again the majority of complaints of sword spam is not when you are the one running after someone.
👍
4.) make the advanced charge (block+hold attack) the standard and only kind of charge.
Why would you diminish the variety available to a pirate? The non-block variant has its uses.
Please explain to me how the default charge is more useful than the advanced one...
That's it (for now).
How do any of these suggestions address the main issue people have with the sword, simply running at you while wildly swinging your sword.
They don't - they're meant to rebalance swordplay and/or to appease the angry mob.
The sword is a pointy, sharp stick. That's easy to use - that will never change. Mastering it, however, is clearly too much for many a pirate. They all complain about a low skill floor, and never acknowledge the high skill ceiling.
The sword is a pointy, sharp stick. That's easy to use - that will never change. Mastering it, however, is clearly too much for many a pirate. They all complain about a low skill floor, and never acknowledge the high skill ceiling.
I think that's the problem most of people have with it. Even without mastering it you can get a lot of value from it. I think I have only seen 3 people who actually mastered it in the last year or so and let me tell you, they were "Amazing!"
Usually people who complain are doublegunners which you have to learn to get any value out of so they expect the same for sword. You Can get kills with sword by just swinging it where as with DG, unless you are using blunderbuss you have to hit both shots and usually fast which can be demanding task for some. I have seen ten times more new players aiming with flintlock for full ten seconds before missing the shot over new players who haven't been able to use sword properly and getting at leas one kill with it.
It's still in my opinion that the skill-ceiling is vastly lower than it once was, and the floor is significantly lower with the ability to spam.
I'd like a higher skill-ceiling for the sword.
Many things you mention are about movement, which are more of a skill around movement, not the sword specifically. Yes, you need a sword to dodge/dash, I understand that.
Movement is a key part of sword fighting, I'm also aware of that.
Movement used to make a bigger difference, it used to set you apart more than it does now. Now with the constant spam, it does so less.Honestly, they lowered the ceiling so they could lower the floor to give new players a fighting chance.
I'll always stand by that fact.
They dumbed it down so new players didn't get absolutely rekt all the time.Dude you don't have to explain to me how to dodge through someone, it is something I do all the time and have other people do to me. Once again you are basing your whole argument on people that are significantly worse than you are and don't even get the basics by the sound of it.
Take the time and turn around to adjust their movement... if they have any idea of what is happening it is a simple movement to follow. Simply flick around and swap directional movement; once again assume your opponent isn't a noodle that just set foot in the seas.
Swords don't win every fight; I never claimed that they would. You however claim to beat those that sword rush you with multiple people using your sword... but you don't, you pull out a different weapon. That is the point I am making; if they play decently and you play slightly better you should be able to do it. Yet that isn't the case now, they need to not move properly at all.
Then on point one, it wasn't tested yet... but my argument is that you don't need to buff the strongest tool in the toolbox. It is already in a great position, why tinker with it.
The second point is not a suggestion that is in favor of those who complain about spam at all, as I stated in my argument; It is not about the 3rd strike, it is about 1st strike, miss, 1st strike, miss, 1st strike, miss, etc. where that isn't punished. The complaints are about the simply running forward and mindlessly swinging the sword, regardless of whether you think you will hit or not. People will always be able to spam, it isn't about making it impossible, it is about making it not as strong. It is not about punishing those that land their hits, it is about those times where they miss! The skill element I explained of choosing when to strike, to ensure you are in range of a hit, etc.
If it's the initial strike that matters why am I not hearing complaints about single blows or sword cancels? It's because pirates aren't doing them. It's not a matter of which strike - just the continuation of it; that's what so many pirates in this thread are complaining about.
No complaints about sword cancels... you mean that thing that they nerfed and hardcore PvPers request to re-add? I guess you never used it in its old state if you think that this wasn't adjusted, it was super powerful.
Also, the point is not when you actually hit! You can then follow up with a combo! They aren't complaining about that... It is when you swing and miss! Then keep running forward and swinging, until you land your hit. There is no choice of when to swing, there is no punishment for swinging... just press forward and swing until you hit! That is what people complain about, not that guy ran up, then once in range swung once and then followed it up with a combo and killed me, the complaint is: They ran up to me while swinging their sword at the air!
You are confusing the act of connecting hits, with the problem people have with spamming when you don't connect hits...
@cotu42 said in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
The second point is not a suggestion that is in favor of those who complain about spam at all, as I stated in my argument; It is not about the 3rd strike, it is about 1st strike, miss, 1st strike, miss, 1st strike, miss, etc. where that isn't punished. The complaints are about the simply running forward and mindlessly swinging the sword, regardless of whether you think you will hit or not. People will always be able to spam, it isn't about making it impossible, it is about making it not as strong. It is not about punishing those that land their hits, it is about those times where they miss! The skill element I explained of choosing when to strike, to ensure you are in range of a hit, etc.
This, in essence, is exactly what I'd like to see them do something about. Mindless swinging has more power than it should have. And again, I believe it was a lazy implementation to "level the playing field" for newer players. Which is sad, skill should be rewarded and new players should learn from their mistakes and strive to be better. But spamming unfortunately works a good amount of the time for them, so they don't really have any compelling reason to learn a different method.
@limend Saying you can get kills with sword just by swinging it is like saying you can get kills with gun just by shooting it. It's incredibly disingenuous.
@salerio said in Sword Spam - Fix the Sword:
It's still in my opinion that the skill-ceiling is vastly lower than it once was, and the floor is significantly lower with the ability to spam.
Debatable on the 1st point; spot on with the 2nd point.
I'd like a higher skill-ceiling for the sword.
Why? Most pirates haven't even reached the 1st ceiling! Most barely leave the floor because they don't need to - their opponent's ignorance of defense is in the basement!
Many things you mention are about movement, which are more of a skill around movement, not the sword specifically. Yes, you need a sword to dodge/dash, I understand that.
That's because every weapon has its quirks - such as benefits at various ranges. The specific quirk for sword is expanded mobility.
Movement is a key part of sword fighting, I'm also aware of that.
Aware, but not often used to your advantage - even your videos prove that. Once you start hitting, your movement drops drastically. You look left to right as you swing, but the buck seems to stop there.
Movement used to make a bigger difference, it used to set you apart more than it does now. Now with the constant spam, it does so less.
Not because of spam. Because of the exploits that were removed. They allowed you to cancel and ice-skate and fly around your opponent.
The reason I'm looking left to right is I'm "pulling" my slashes, which I'm sure you're already aware of; it increases the range at which you can hit with a sword if you pull it while the slash animation is going. As for using movement to my advantage, I'd disagree and say that I do use it to my advantage. Am I perfect? Well no, no one is. That's why I make videos, to re-watch, learn, and apply. I think to say "even your videos prove that" is generalizing way too much. The majority of the time my positioning is quite good.
The exploits definitely were a problem and I'm glad they're fixed. I just think the spam is the final chapter in fixing the sword. I don't have the magic fix for it myself, but I do think it can be fixed without hurting the sword.
106 out of 210
