Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy

  • Nohdles
    Marauder
    Insider

    Remove or drastically change "double gun" strategy

    I am not someone who gets super involved in giving feedback to a game. I am totally happy with this game and the way it has been developed. Controversial editions such as the resource purchasing create room for debate which I think should be encouraged as it will result in the betterment of the game. However, I find that there has been one strategy in Sea Of Thieves that has brought me more agony than any other. Double Gun Strategy.

    The double gun strategy; which entails the use of two gun weapons almost always including the eye of reach and a flintlock and blunderbuss often interchanged based on the players preference, I have found has caused me more pain than all the tuckers and arena cannon point farmers. The strategy has had several nerfs in the past and I am aware has been a long standing point of issue and controversy among the community. In my experience, when I come across another ship, and we prepare to cross steel, and they whip out double guns and two people wipe out our entire crew in 5 seconds, I no longer want to play this awesome game that I have played for upwards of a thousand hours, and since day one. I stand no chance with a cutlass and the reload time of my flintlock, and its just better to give up.

    Here are my personal suggestion that I have thought of every time someone stuffs my sorry face with two rounds from their guns in a half a second:

    1. Make Ammo for weapons shared: This solution wouldn't even fix the problem that I hate, but it would balance it more. I think that the tell tale sign of a strategy that is too powerful is that even if I cut your shots in half while you were using double gun, giving you only 5 shots between your eye of reach and and flintlock, if you retained a great enough amount of skill, you would win every single fight against my single flintlock and cutlass.

    2. Make switching from one gun to another require a reload animation: The main issue I see with the double gun strategy is the ability to kill someone in half a second without them even having time to react. If you make it so that the time between firing those shots is increased by a little, you drastically change the damage output of the guns. I am aware and have considered that this would make the strategy much weaker since the opponent could have time to eat within that period thusly prompting a third shot, but to this I say this switch reload animation should be unique to the action of switching from one gun to another. the duration of this animation would also allow for the developers to adjust the period of this reload to balance the strategy to be more on par with players running a sword.

    3. Just remove it...: Lock players into using a sword. I understand the outrage people probably feel just hearing those words and I can sense the twitching muscles of every player who has ever said something along the lines of "its called Sea Of Thieves" or "You should just play the game better and learn to deal with the PVP aspect!". Bare with me, while I say yes, it is an incredibly drastic measure to take because it kills what I would even argue is a unique strategy in the game, but that the strategy drastically changes the effectiveness of this games most unique weapon, the sword, which is made nearly obsolete by skilled FPS players coming in from other competitive video games. I understand SOT is a competitive scene, and I encourage that. what I don't think is very healthy for the game is the shift away from unique weapons and methods such as the sword.

    I would love feedback and argumentative points (other than those aforementioned above in suggestion #3) to change my mind on this because I would love to see some light in the double gun strat other than its encouragement of competitive gamers migrating following their favorite streamers and boosting the games player base. I just have only had horrible unplayable experiences with people running double guns, and am so very tired of bringing a knife to a double gun fight.

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  • AribAlam
    Commander
    Insider

    Trust me, people who double gun are very skilled at this game. Like you said, people who double gun are day one players. If you take away this strategy, they’ll find another way. Such as hitting you with a sword a couple times, then just shoot you to finish you off.

    It’s also not against any rules to double gun. While it can get annoying to be killed instantly, you can adapt against them. Like let them shoot, try your hardest to dodge, then attack them. Since they’re double gunning they’ll have to reload, so you’ll have a chance to finish them.

    Another thing you can do is learn to double gun yourself.

  • ScurvyWoof
    Captain

    Lol, double gun is so easy to counter now. I used to double gun but stopped because the sword is essentially more overpowered by itself. (And I don’t suffer as much hit reg)
    I’ve seen all these posts, all suggesting the same things. Double gun hasn’t been OP since sword was buffed.
    It sucks you fell victim to double gunners but you must understand that double gun is seriously overrated. In all honesty, it isn’t very good. The time it takes for you to reload is more than enough time for a person to pull a 3 hit sword combo on you.

    Edit: Look, I found the old me!!

  • GoldheartTTV
    Rogue

    No change is needed. You need to have some skill when using double guns. Not to mention double guns means double reloads, which requires a lot of attention to pay and timing. Ammo for both weapons is okay as well; double guns requires double ammo because it's facing against someone with less ammo and less range on a weapon but infinite swings and a skill cooldown.

    This game has a balanced combat system with trade-offs. By removing the cutlass, you lose things like the ability to block other swords and you also lose lunge-dives, which are great in terms of maneuverability. With a cutlass, you have other options that trade off for less firepower, like the ability to move across the sea at the speed of a cannon across a certain distance, or the ability to take down multiple mook skeletons in a single lunge.

  • ajm123
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    Tbh double gunning imo doesn't happen that often because of the sword. Get over it get quicker with your sword or sniper.

    Or scuttle.

  • SuperPopato
    Seafarer

    The time it takes for you to reload is more than enough time for a person to pull a 3 hit sword combo on you.

    this is only true if you're y'know, not dead from the first 2 shots. it doesn't matter what gun combo they have, it's still a faster kill to shoot twice than it is to sword kill someone.
    it's also faster to reload any gun than it is to eat any food, so by the time you've healed up from being hit once they can shoot you again, which makes food during fights almost worthless.

    The damage numbers from any gun are fine if they're used with just a sword, but when they're paired with another gun they're kind of absurd.
    Even with the last "buffs" the sword got, it's still twice as long to land a 3 hit combo as it is to pull out, aim, and shoot a single Eye of Reach shot for the same amount of damage. Pair that with a flintlock shot and you've overkilled your target. Blunderbuss does anywhere from 0-100% damage depending on range.

    it's just a recipe for a near instant kill even without exploits regardless of gun types being used.

    the argument against this is always "but limited ammo, and it takes skill" but this isn't supposed to be a hardcore FPS game, and 10 shots is more than enough to take down an entire galleon crew alone.
    It spirals out of control when you come across 2 double gunners because then they instantly kill your entire crew in half the time, and then they spawn camp you because there is nothing you can do to counter it.

    tl;dr I'm tired of feeling like I'm being punished for using a sword instead of another gun

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @mageofheart5367 said:

    because it's facing against someone with less ammo and less range on a weapon but infinite swings and a skill cooldown.

    Skill cooldown? Are you referring to the sword charge? Because if you are, that only happens if you miss, and if you're relying solely on that manuever, you're going to die a lot. I myself almost never use it, because I prefer more advanced and nuanced mechanics to win my fights - all of which have no cooldown, and absolutely take skill.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @superpopato said:

    this is only true if you're y'know, not dead from the first 2 shots.

    If you're shot twice from anything, unless you heal, you're dead...

    it doesn't matter what gun combo they have, it's still a faster kill to shoot twice than it is to sword kill someone.

    It is, but it's harder than you might think to pull off. If you account for acquiring a target, aim time, shooting, reloading (or switching weapons), reacquiring your target, aiming again, and shooting again - it ends up being about the same amount of time. And don't forget that sword users like to move a lot and aren't slowed down from their attacks, which makes them hard targets to acquire. Furthermore, gunners have to keep them front and center whereas sword users don't have to do the same.

    it's also faster to reload any gun than it is to eat any food, so by the time you've healed up from being hit once they can shoot you again, which makes food during fights almost worthless.

    This is blatantly untrue - you can eat food faster than they can reload (I just tested this). If you couldn't, then there'd be no point in having food in the game.

    From fastest to slowest:
    1 - Eat food
    2 - Flintlock reload
    3 - Blunderbuss reload
    4 - Eye of Reach reload

  • LimbicFanatic
    Lord
    Insider
    Founder

    @nohdles

    Learn to identify the weaknesses to the double-gun strategy while also playing to your strengths.

    Long reload. After the initial "double-shot", the double gunners must reload both their weapons. That isn't a big deal to them if they happen to kill you with the "double-shot", but if they miss or if you have surviving crewmembers nearby, rush them down and slice them to death. You often see double-gunners complaining on the forums about the sword, and their complaints revolve around how one hit inevitably leads to getting hit with the entire 3 hit combo.

    Limited Ammo. This is going to be a controversial bit of advice, but if double-gunners have boarded your ship and are causing chaos, firebomb your own ammo box. If they aren't camping that spot, then they'll be moving through often to ensure their ammo is topped off. If there's a fire at the ammo box, there's a good chance it'll inevitably cause more damage to them than it does to your crew (just don't forget to put it out after you remove them).

    Teamwork. This isn't necessarily a weakness of double-gunners per se, but your post implied that you have a 3-4 person regular crew. Use that to your advantage! Have one person chase while another cuts off any avenue of escape. They can't block, so try to corner them. Use blunderbombs to shove them into a tight space then move in for the kill.

    I actually think the double-gun meta is in a pretty good spot at the moment, in that I see roughly equal numbers of people complaining about "sword is op" as I do "double-gun is op" on the forums. :)

  • Psychaotic13
    Seafarer
    Insider

    Hm... Nah.

  • Ste4lthles
    Marauder
    Insider

    Stop complaining already, there is still a delay no one can bypass and double gun is super easy to counter with sword and or blunderbombs

  • CGallerine
    Commander
    Insider

    You lost me at "Remove or drastically change "double gun" strategy"
    Double gun is a viable strat just as server hopping or running to the Shores of Gold with a FOTD key, and removing it removes a whole aspect of the game. Plus, sure you don't enjoy it, but for each person that doesn't like it there's about 3 that do, forcing me to play weapons I don't enjoy makes me not want to play the game, which doesn't expand the player base much. Double gunning has been in the game since launch as far as I can remember, people used to just deal with it all the time. Double gunning is fine and if they miss one of their shots that opens the biggest opportunity in the whole fight. Sword was buffed to deal with double gun a while back, reloading 2 guns takes longer than it should for you to sprint and 4 tap them.

    Make Ammo for weapons shared

    That's very possibly one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever heard since "PvE servers"

    Make switching from one gun to another require a reload animation

    Maybe not a full one, but perhaps just clicking back the lock part (IDK how guns and their parts are actually called lol)

    Just remove it...

    Just, no.

  • TheSwiftness999
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Can we get a mega thread on this topic already?? It's quickly becoming the new "I'm done with this game until we get PvE servers!". It blows my mind how many people demand that tactics that they don't like/use be removed from the game. Learn to adapt. Why should a crew that is more skilled/experienced than you be punished for being so?

  • BurnBacon
    Champion
    Insider

    It’s not DG that is the problem. It’s the rabbit players. Hopping around and firing.

    I lose fights from laughing at them so much. To the point, idc about my ship or loot.

  • Guilleont
    Champion
    Insider

    @ste4lthles dijo en Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

    Stop complaining already, there is still a delay no one can bypass and double gun is super easy to counter with sword and or blunderbombs

    It is still. Not as OP as before but it is. That said I play DG sometimes.

    In any case they should remove backspawning and reviving from PVP. It's so unfair that you are able to sink a ship just to have all of them back in the water and spawnkilling you, so no matter you kill 1,2 or 3 boardeds... if they all are gonna be alive the next time to came back from the Ferry.

  • Ste4lthles
    Marauder
    Insider

    @burnbacon bro, hopping players are the easiest to kill as they hop constantly and it's predictable, just need to get better then

  • CGallerine
    Commander
    Insider

    @mageofheart5367 said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

    A book mysteriously washes up on shore. You feel the urge to read it.

    Can you like, not link suspicious sites?

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @gallerine5582 said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

    @mageofheart5367 said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

    A book mysteriously washes up on shore. You feel the urge to read it.

    Can you like, not link suspicious sites?

    I'm fairly certain he's not supposed to advertise outside sources too.

  • xZilbermann
    Marauder
    Insider

    double gunning is horrible and that's a fact. totally agreed.

  • Ghostfire1981
    Champion
    Insider

    Im not against double gunning, but for the sake of discussion: How about limit access to the ammunition crate? You can not refill your ammunition at an enemy ship, and when you are out you need to get to your own ship or find a portable ammunition crate.

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    The way PvP works in Sot ruins it for me completely, not because i dont like to PVP - i lik it, but the pirate combat and especially guns and all the exploits and exploitive meta's of PvP ruin the game for me.

  • Ste4lthles
    Marauder
    Insider

    @xzilbermann sword is

  • Ste4lthles
    Marauder
    Insider

    @stundorn ofc, blame expolits. And fail to see what an exploit sword is

  • AwsmstAccntName
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    There are advantages and disadvantages to each load out. Double gunners have to reload each weapon after firing and missing twice which allows you to close the gap on them if they aren't using a blunder, eat, throw blunder bombs, bucket, etc. Either way if you die you will get camped which is the true issue and that is a problem no matter what the enemy load out is.

    The true fix is adding invulnerability for 1.5 seconds after respawn so you cannot be shot during respawn and have a chance to defend your self.

  • MrBadaBing
    Master
    Insider

    @awsmstaccntname

    The true fix is adding invulnerability for 1.5 seconds after respawn so you cannot be shot during respawn and have a chance to defend your self.

    If a crew has successfully boarded and killed your team and camping you so they can obtain your loot and your supplies, then you already have lost control of your boat and that's what the scuttle option is for.

    The respawn timer is fine the way it is, that's up to you to figure out how to break the camp. If not then accept defeat, and scuttle.

  • AwsmstAccntName
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @mrbadabing said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

    @awsmstaccntname

    The true fix is adding invulnerability for 1.5 seconds after respawn so you cannot be shot during respawn and have a chance to defend your self.

    If a crew has successfully boarded and killed your team and camping you so they can obtain your loot and your supplies, then you already have lost control of your boat and that's what the scuttle option is for.

    The respawn timer is fine the way it is, that's up to you to figure out how to break the camp. If not then accept defeat, and scuttle.

    I'm aware of the scuttle and I'm usually the person spawn camping. As some one that's been on both sides, as we all have. Your boat hasn't sank yet and it's still yours to defend but your defense is heavily not in your favor since you spawn with less than half health due to this which renders you unable to go to their boat, stay and defend yours or any options. Plus you are spawning in with less food than the camping enemy.

  • MrBadaBing
    Master
    Insider

    @awsmstaccntname

    I get what you are saying but I don't think a timer will fix anything. In all honesty anything that gets buffed or nerfed will never make everyone happy. People complain literally about anything and everything. Double Gunners Complain about Sword Users and Sword Users complain about DGers. There is no happy medium with any of this.

  • AwsmstAccntName
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Oh, I don't care about the load out as mentioned. Many games have the invulnerability option on respawn that lasts 1 second or less and it'd be applicable here as you just fall on to the boat and get shot twice by the enemy team. It's life and most of us accept it but I like those salty run backs when we're having a good TDM battle then just to accept defeat based on the current respawn or the other way around. I'd enjoy for others to come back and fight me for their loot. It'd be a much for fun encounter of taking their supplies. If loot is concerned then we just sink them. Spawn camping isn't fun for either party.

  • CGallerine
    Commander
    Insider

    @xzilbermann said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

    double gunning is horrible and that's a fact. totally agreed.

    If that's a fact you're just wrong. THAT'S a fact.

  • Mikthuz
    Marauder
    Insider

    I don't mind the double gun strategy in brawls and what not, but I detest it with all my heart and soul when it comes to spawn camping. It removes any sense of fair fight and competition and chance to turn the tables again when spawning.

    Someone running double gun can literally stand behind where you spawn and kill you before you can even move out of the spot, and even if you succeed to do so AND they miss their eye of reach shot, they got time to reload their blunder before you can get close enough to start swinging your sword.

    A possible solution would be to simply let us choose where on the boat we respawn, since we know the different boats got different spawn points.

    Also, the delay when switching weapons does not apply if you swap weapons right after having fired a shot, at least from my own testing?

    Also, I think the blunder should have its damage vastly reduced since it got the knockback gimmick. No reason for it to also one-shot you.

  • Lumborghini
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Double gunning is worse than a sword and requires much more skill to use. The sword is also better than double gunning and requires not that much effort to be good at the sword, honesty double gunning is fine as is, there’s no reason to remove it cause the only reason people double gun is because it’s more fun than using sword blunderbuss, we miss our two shots we’re dead from the sword,
    It’s not that op

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @awsmstaccntname Respawn invulnerability was tested, failed, and discarded.

  • Vic Kestrel
    Marauder
    Insider

    Agree. It's just cheesy.

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