@chronodusk

Agreed. Well said. It’s almost like they just re-skinned Other treasure that we’ve already seen and called it Athena. Actually, that exactly what they did. You have this Pirate Hideout where nothing has changed really since Day 1. The Athena ‘wheel’ lacks value, motivation, incentive, interest...

Give the PLs something something unique to do please. It’s been insanely long overdue.

@chronodusk Athena's Fortune has been bland for a while, I'm glad I got Athena 20 in the first week of Ships of Fortune... Though I don't know what voyage Athena's Fortune could have that wouldn't look like one of the other factions... I do have hope that Rare can make something work.

@wolfmanbush It was great when it always got you to 5, however that was a little busted, but shouldn't it be? The over-nerfed it I think, maybe make it better again and raise the price back to 99? Even if the Athena's Run was changed to work better it would still be a reprinted Reaper's Run... The change to Athena's Fortune would have to blow Athena's Runs out of the water in terms of playability. But a new voyage couldn't be better than Athena's Runs because Athena's Runs cost doubloons.

@grumpyw01f said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@chronodusk Athena's Fortune has been bland for a while, I'm glad I got Athena 20 in the first week of Ships of Fortune... Though I don't know what voyage Athena's Fortune could have that wouldn't look like one of the other factions... I do have hope that Rare can make something work.

Yeah I've been thinking. Athena's Fortune itself is a secret meant for Legends. So why not make Athena's Fortune all about discovering secrets and chasing legends? I could almost see it becoming a blend of voyages and Tall Tales. Your voyages are stories.

Maybe a possible step in a voyage, you have to go to an island and use the Ferryman's Lantern to find invisible Ghost NPCs who can talk to you about rumors of the final resting place of a certain Pirate Legend. Once you determine the location of this Legend, you can find his remains in a shipwreck or in a cave on an unmarked island, surrounded by Athena treasures and holding a map to a Chest of Legends? Just a quick idea!

@chronodusk Nice. Wouldn't do much of though without commendation rewards (of what, who knows) or a higher level cap (I don't know if I would like that unless the new voyage is fun)

@grumpyw01f said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@chronodusk Nice. Wouldn't do much of though without commendation rewards (of what, who knows) or a higher level cap (I don't know if I would like that unless the new voyage is fun)

What I think would also be cool --- if you're on these voyages, sometimes the hidden Ghost NPC you find with the lantern will have a chance of offering you a random few of the Legend Hideout shop items to buy at a cheaper price, or even a Pirate Legend cosmetic set that is only sold by these ghost NPCs.

@chronodusk As of right now, I hate doing Athena's Fortune because I know I will be playing for a while. Back in the early days it was: "Hey I've got 3 hours to spare, how about I solo sloop and get ONE CHEST OF LEGENDS." I didn't know speedrunning back then (I wanted all of the loot) but even if I did it's still tedious. Nowadays, the shortest Athena voyage you can go on (besides gilded) is this:

• Athena's Run, Grade 4 If you're lucky
• Athena's Run #2 for Grade 5, If you're unlucky you're going to finish the second Athena's Run
• Sell what you have and get the emissary quest. For extra money or if you're staying on longer, drop and re-raise the flag and finish the second Athena's Run.
• Do the emissary quest and hopefully sell at Grade 5.
• Repeat for low money but high reputation.
  To do the shortest session of Athena's Fortune, you'll have to do at least 12 maps, 15 if you're unlucky.
  The worst part is that even though you have got a long voyage ahead of you, you still get to hold a big middle finger to all the Reapers because your loot isn't worth anything for 80% of the quest. For the Athena's Run, you will get Grade 5 at Thieves Haven, ONE ISLAND AWAY FROM PLUNDER. To steal that, you're pretty much forced to tucc to be able to get that flag. If you're doing the emissary voyage, uh-oh, you've dropped and re-raised the flag, so not only will it be hard for people to find you since you're not next to Thieves Haven, but you're also got nothing on you again. That's part of the game but then your loot isn't worth much AGAIN until you get the chest and the athena keg. And then you go directly to the nearest outpost and drop that sweet grade 5 flag.
  All of that time, work, and effort, and you still only have the Grade 5 up at a combined 10 minutes max on a 3-5 hour spree. I have every single Reaper flag commendation, except for the 5 Grade 5 Athena flags. I have not sold one because I don't have the patience to stalk a crew when I've already raised Reapers and given myself away.

@chronodusk Yeah! I'm all for new Athena's stuff as long as it is done right, with A20's and A1's alike in mind. Or would you only be able to buy these voyages at A5?
I will continue the discussion tomorrow if you like, for now I must sleep.

@grumpyw01f

Yep, the addition of Emissaries really brought out how lame Athena's Fortune is. You only get emissary rank progress when you touch an Athena item, and you can only get gold multipliers for the Athena items. The fact that standard Athenas are so inefficient for doing an Athena Emissary is very, very telling of how unsuitable Athena voyages are in general.

Of course, then if you make the Athena items more common, you have an issue with balancing progression as it's only 20 levels. Apart from making new Athena voyages, they need to allow you to turn in all types of loot to the mysterious stranger for gold only, no rep. Maybe reduce the base gold return to like 75% of what you'd get for turning it in to its normal trading company. That way you can at least get the gold bonuses for sailing your emissary.

Here are some ideas for things that could be included in revamped Athena Voyages.

Athena Skeleton Lords

Skeleton Lords designed with the Athena's Fortune aesthetic and with their own unique moveset.

Athena Wrecks

During the voyage, crews will need to locate the shipwreck of an Athena's crew. On arrival, a much harder version of the current PvE bosses would spawn. Defeating them drops a captain's cabin key. Inside is a readable manifest that details the crews plan, giving you locations to head to to continue the voyage.

Athena Vaults

Simple idea really. Gold Hoarder vaults but harder and with Athena loot.

Undead Athena Man O' War

As a final part of the voyage, the crew must face off against an Athena's Skeleton Man O' War, captained by an Athena's Skeleton Lord. Defeating it drops a large amount of Athena's loot.

@galactic-geek I do any I can find. Problem is, it's RNG. Sometime's I'll get 5 off of 1 Athena run because I get lucky with a meg and skeleton ship. Sometimes there'll be none for the whole session.

The bigger issue is that Athena Voyages (normal ones) don't reward a lot of Athena loot, meaning getting emissary up is tedious.

@galactic-geek said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@Chronodusk
@EcaIIaw
@GrumpyW01f
@mferr11
@WolfManbush

Q: Do any of you actively do PvE while running the Athena Emmisary flag? I find I level pretty quickly when doing them - megalodon, kraken, skeleton ships, and even bonus bottle voyages.

I don’t go searching for it but if I do encounter it I definitely attack a Meg or Skelly ship. Only thing that helps you get to 5. That the thieves haven run, not the regular voyage. The regular voyage hands you 5 pieces of athenas treasure, and then the COL. Which brings you to about 3.5ish. Thats it.

@mferr11 said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

Here are some ideas for things that could be included in revamped Athena Voyages.

---

Athena Skeleton Lords

Skeleton Lords designed with the Athena's Fortune aesthetic and with their own unique moveset.

Athena Wrecks

During the voyage, crews will need to locate the shipwreck of an Athena's crew. On arrival, a much harder version of the current PvE bosses would spawn. Defeating them drops a captain's cabin key. Inside is a readable manifest that details the crews plan, giving you locations to head to to continue the voyage.

Athena Vaults

Simple idea really. Gold Hoarder vaults but harder and with Athena loot.

Undead Athena Man O' War

As a final part of the voyage, the crew must face off against an Athena's Skeleton Man O' War, captained by an Athena's Skeleton Lord. Defeating it drops a large amount of Athena's loot.

I was going to suggest something similar earlier but you hit the nail right on the head. I like all of this. If they have the Athenas voyage be this wheel of mix bags, where we’ve seen all this loot before and most of it we don’t need, then just do exactly what you purpose. Make it a journey and more interesting. Makes you think.

Right now it’s absolutely annoying and boring knowing you’re going to Thieves Haven, then to either Snake Island/Discovery Ridge/Crooks Hollow. Then back to TH. What is that?

@galactic-geek said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@Chronodusk
@EcaIIaw
@GrumpyW01f
@mferr11
@WolfManbush

Q: Do any of you actively do PvE while running the Athena Emmisary flag? I find I level pretty quickly when doing them - megalodon, kraken, skeleton ships, and even bonus bottle voyages.

Yeah, when I can find them I do it. In my experience it was never a reliable way to rank up, personally.

@galactic-geek said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@Chronodusk
@EcaIIaw
@GrumpyW01f
@mferr11
@WolfManbush

Q: Do any of you actively do PvE while running the Athena Emmisary flag? I find I level pretty quickly when doing them - megalodon, kraken, skeleton ships, and even bonus bottle voyages.

Sure it gets you to 5 quicker, maybe not needing to do a second Athena's Run, but it's not that much of a time save and gives you no athena loot.

@galactic-geek said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@grumpyw01f It's not supposed to be quick, and never was meant to be; it's supposed to be a journey; a journey of discovery, of risk, and ultimately reward.

If I can survive sailing for 8+ hours straight without getting sunk by another crew this weekend, then so can you!

...provided you actually have the time, of course. 😅

There's not much risk when plunder is a minute sail from where you get grade 5, and then you drop and reraise the flag, getting grade 5 really close to the chest, and then not having more than a 3 minute sail to an outpost. By the time you go after someone with anything good they're probably at the outpost.
Lol 8+ hours 😂 forget playing athena's fortune casually

If I could change a few things about Athena's Fortune, it would be:

A: Change Athena's Fortune to have 75 levels, like the other trade companies.
B: Put the ship cosmetics, instead of being commendation based on the number of items accrued, make it progression based, like the other trade companies - level up past 50, to unlock the ability to buy the Athena ship parts.
C: Have the earlier 50 levels attributed to unlocking the Pirate Legend cosmetics for clothes, opening them up for purchase
D: REMOVE random non-Athena based loot from Athena voyages, and replace them with Athena loot. (However, keep the Mermaid Gems)

AKA: Make it function the same as the other trade companies, so the grind isn't so vicious.

I agree with the OP, though, that aside from these kinds of changes, Athena's Fortune does need a new identity. It needs it's own voyages respectfully, to make it feel like a whole new experience past the other trading companies. Discovering a whole new company and finding out it has way different voyages beyond the main three after I hit the Pirate Legend bar? THAT is a great reason to push for that kind of thing, because you're actively unlocking brand new content you didn't have access to before.

Do I have an immediate suggestion on what? No, not in the immediate moment, but I'll see if I can toil over some ideas in my head and keep tabs on this thread in the meanwhile.

I think a more immediate and simple change would be to replace the current normal loot from voyages with new Athena loot. New Athena chests, skulls, crates, gems, and even some more unique ones, like an Athena's Mark (functions like reapers mark).

@mferr11 said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

I think a more immediate and simple change would be to replace the current normal loot from voyages with new Athena loot. New Athena chests, skulls, crates, gems, and even some more unique ones, like an Athena's Mark (functions like reapers mark).

And then you might have an unbalanced progression through the 20 levels of Athena’s.

They honestly just need to tear down Athena’s Fortune as we know it and turn it into a normal 50 level trading company so that they have more flexibility to give more Athena loot.

When my crew and I set off on an Athena voyage, our goal is usually Grade IV. If we make at least that, we're happy. If we reach the end of our voyage and still have time left, we might go for Grade V. One night recently we managed to complete two entire Ashen Athena voyages and the Grade V bonus voyage. That was an exceptional night. But usually we're happy to make it to IV. It's not hard with a few skellie ships, megalodons, skellie captains, etc. If we can't find enough PvE, we'll drop a second voyage to get to IV.

Anyway, I agree it needs some changes. A couple simple things would help in the meantime. They could add purple Athena gems, which could have a chance of popping up instead of all the blue, green, and red gems. Also, Athena cargo runs have absolutely zero grading-up value. Making turned-in cargo count towards the emissary grade would go a long way towards improving the situation. As it stands, we leave cargo where we find it (like most people). Delivering it isn't worth the time it takes.

Of course, these little ideas aren't a fix for the whole system. But they'd help the current system quite a bit.

@genuine-heather

Yeah I think like you said there are some easy yet meaningful changes they can make in the meantime - more actions should contribute to the Emissary rank up progress. If we are to dig Gold Hoarder chests and kill skeletons for the entire voyage, then these things must count.

And secondly, they should allow all types of loot to be turned in to the Mysterious Stranger. Non-Athena loot gives no rep and the base gold value would be reduced to 75% of the regular value. At least this way you can use the gold multiplier from your Athena Emissary.

These two changes alone could make it at least viable as an Emissary for the time being.

@galactic-geek said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@grumpyw01f Completed a 6 hour run today with friends on a galleon where we completed a DR Athena run, followed by a Gilded Athena run, plus bonus voyages from the level 5 emmisary flag, spruced with numerous meg and skelly ship encounters in between.

Still, no issues had level 4 by the end of the 1zt voyage.

Gotcha... but why did you feel you had to say this?
I first said that you can definitely get grade 5 easier, but that it didn't matter in terms of athena's loot or time save. Sure you can shave off having to do as many quests, but you're still most likely going to have to do those quests if you re-raise the flag after getting grade 5 (because the emissary voyage doesn't get super high)
Then you go on and say it shouldn't be fast anyway because of the company it's for, and then you said what I interpreted as a joke:

If I can survive sailing for 8+ hours straight without getting sunk by another crew this weekend, then so can you!
...provided you actually have the time, of course. 😅

Then I say that there's an extremely small window of real risk when doing Athena voyages, and bounce your joke back:

Lol 8+ hours 😂 forget playing athena's fortune casually

Then you gave the last response which makes me think you're trying to help me? Or was it to also say that athena voyages pose no risk? If it was the former, now your post before that reads as condescending/patronizing. Bruh... I was Athena 20 in the first week of Ships of Fortune, I participated in the Legendary Captain Challenge (was at top 20 before I quit due to the insane #1 players), and I (reluctantly) have gotten all 5 months of top tier Athena's Fortune. I don't need to know how to do Athena's Fortune voyages... I just prefer spending time getting more athena's treasures than sailing to find skeleton ships for grade. I will fight the skeleton ships/megs that spawn on me though... no need to sway me there.

@thelostsentinel The pirate legend items based on commendations will never change. The only thing that would happen is that the ghost items would be more spread out on buying for each level. IF AF was changed to be up to lvl 75, they'd put everyone at their proportional level (A20=A75) and in that way, your proposed change to the leveling/cosmetic system is a nothing change.
In the way AF currently is, the ship parts are earned by level, it's just before the equipment (and its not the ship you're thinking of). You see, the Gold Hoarder ship does not equal the Pirate Legend Ship. The Gold Hoarder ship does equal the Ghost Ship.
Pirate Legend Cosmetics - earned by being a pirate legend or by doing tasks as a pirate legend.
Ghost Cosmetics - earned by progression through the company/emissary tasks.
The only way the level cap would be increased for Athena's Fortune is if there was a new set built for progression... as all of the Ghost/Pirate Legend set has been released. They could continue if more cosmetics were made for each... Ghost Curse, etc.
Personally, I like that the Pirate Legend Cosmetics are about completing commendations. It gives goals for the player besides just doing voyages, although that is valid as well. The point is that as a Pirate Legend, you're still contributing to the other companies, and the commendations reflect that:
OOS equipment rewards - Tankard, Lantern
Doing OOS stuff as a pirate legend - PL Tankard, Lantern

GH equipment rewards - Compass, Shovel
Doing GH stuff as a pirate legend - PL Compass, Shovel

MA equipment rewards - Pocket Watch, Spyglass
Doing MA stuff as a pirate legend - PL Pocket Watch, Spyglass

Arena equipment rewards - Weapons
Doing Arena stuff as a pirate legend - PL Weapons

HC equipment rewards - Fishing rod (Should have been bucket, fishing rod, not lantern, fishing rod)
Doing HC stuff as a pirate legend - Ghost Fishing Rod (Should have been PL bucket, fishing rod and unlock the ghost rod some other way related to progression)

@grumpyw01f said in The Glaring Issues With Athena's Fortune:

@thelostsentinel The pirate legend items based on commendations will never change. The only thing that would happen is that the ghost items would be more spread out on buying for each level. IF AF was changed to be up to lvl 75, they'd put everyone at their proportional level (A20=A75) and in that way, your proposed change to the leveling/cosmetic system is a nothing change.
In the way AF currently is, the ship parts are earned by level, it's just before the equipment (and its not the ship you're thinking of). You see, the Gold Hoarder ship does not equal the Pirate Legend Ship. The Gold Hoarder ship does equal the Ghost Ship.
Pirate Legend Cosmetics - earned by being a pirate legend or by doing tasks as a pirate legend.
Ghost Cosmetics - earned by progression through the company/emissary tasks.
The only way the level cap would be increased for Athena's Fortune is if there was a new set built for progression... as all of the Ghost/Pirate Legend set has been released. They could continue if more cosmetics were made for each... Ghost Curse, etc.
Personally, I like that the Pirate Legend Cosmetics are about completing commendations. It gives goals for the player besides just doing voyages, although that is valid as well. The point is that as a Pirate Legend, you're still contributing to the other companies, and the commendations reflect that:
OOS equipment rewards - Tankard, Lantern
Doing OOS stuff as a pirate legend - PL Tankard, Lantern

GH equipment rewards - Compass, Shovel
Doing GH stuff as a pirate legend - PL Compass, Shovel

MA equipment rewards - Pocket Watch, Spyglass
Doing MA stuff as a pirate legend - PL Pocket Watch, Spyglass

Arena equipment rewards - Weapons
Doing Arena stuff as a pirate legend - PL Weapons

HC equipment rewards - Fishing rod (Should have been bucket, fishing rod, not lantern, fishing rod)
Doing HC stuff as a pirate legend - Ghost Fishing Rod (Should have been PL bucket, fishing rod and unlock the ghost rod some other way related to progression)

This is actually fascinating to me because I never drew that parallel that the respective company rewards correspond with the Pirate Legend ones. Still, I don't think regular loot has a place in Athena's Fortune. The gems make sense, because you can give them to any company you want, and thusly, work towards ones you presumably haven't fully leveled up yet. But the extra loot not associated with Athena's Fortune just seems too odd and pointless padding out your actual progress. If they were to up the drop rate by removing the random loot, and the commendation stuff had to stay the same, just slightly increase the commendation numbers, if they're too low.

At least then, it would feel like you're actually progressing and not being chipped out on Athena's Fortune loot. Or if you were sunk by an enemy player or some other means, then you lost that significant progress like any other company.

I'm just saying for the sake of, Athena's Fortune really shouldn't have mixed loot (aside from gems so you can kind of play catch up [but in all reality, you'd just fly the emissary of the respective company if you REALLY want those ship cosmetics.]) - if it needs a firm identity, that's step one of fixing that problem. Step two, is to have more unique voyages associated so it really does feel like a whole new section of the game once you reach that PL status.

@chronodusk The idea of hunting down sunken treasure of real players would be SOOOO cool. It could be like the immortalizations of Umbra, but as a way to find Athena treasure. That would be a fun change of pace, and allow you to learn about other cool voyages of other real players. This seems like what should have been the route they took with Umbra instead of just putting player names on signs you can read.

@chronodusk

I have been calling for years that the Athena Fortune needs a rework, with more challenging and engaging voyages that offer a new type of experience, with some variety in it please.

The emissary system is just highlighting an issue that has been in the game since the beginning.