Combat and sword

@vorxet said in Combat and sword:

@tenriak said in Combat and sword:

I feel like I might have solo'd that galleon too, without exploits.

Videos of people exploiting are usually of them beating up every one else.

its not just about a good player clapping a bunch of xbox players with exploits, it added WAY more depth into sword 1v1s. and believe it or not, sword 1v1s were a big thing before the nerf. not just to see who was better, but getting a good lockdown was fun. its like a flex, sit down who's next? it was more satisfying to me more than doublegunning. i used to be a sword player before the nerf, i was on xbox, i diddnt get to use the exploits for that long but the times i did were so much fun. if they fixed the sword and made it be like how it used to be i would literally never doublegun again. i play sot for fun, not to be the best right, and old sword 1v1s were the time i had the most fun on this game,
i made the suggestion that when they make custom servers they should allow a check box that reads, old combat system, and we can do things like https://youtu.be/9WYQfe-7qkE?t=390
i'm not the only one there would be thousands who would love this feature. and i assume it wouldnt be that hard for rare to do this again.

"Thousands" is an overstatement. I think there are two of you who wish rare would add exploits back in.

its not just about a good player clapping a bunch of xbox players with exploits, it added WAY more depth into sword 1v1s.

Cheating is not depth. He had learned to glitch the game allowing his character to do unintended actions that others can't do. That is cheating if I ever heard of it.

I like it the way is is now, where every one has the same weapons that can do the same things, without you being able to glitch because you happen to have the correct processor or graphics card or w/e.

How do you even know that it was possible on all machines?

I bet it wasn't.

@vorxet said in Combat and sword:

i diddnt know about it, until i realised that people were doing it to me,

This is my biggest issue with exploits. You have no idea why you are being beaten, because as far as you know what they are doing shouldn't be possible. Add them back as mechanics that are taught to players, make them less OP so that it isn't the only viable strategy, and that is what will add depth to sword combat. Simply going back to a time where x-cancelling and bhop spamming was the only viable way to use sword isn't fun or interesting, and neither are the videos you linked. They just look like a bunch of spamming and wild swinging, that doesn't look fun to me. And yes, I've used the x-cancel when it was ingame, I know what it was like.

@vorxet said in Combat and sword:

well obviously you're not taking facts for account only opinons, xbox players were doing it, and people with bad pcs who struggled to get 30fps were also,
another thing is, https://youtu.be/YyGMJCor9YM - look at the view count, this had old exploits, better yet the like count, i guarantee if you go into the comment section and say something as dumb as what you just said you would get criticised for it.
i think you're only taking your own opinion to another level. trust me dude, double tapping a button is not cheating. cheating is gaining an unfair advantage over someone. and as far as i know, learning how to time some buttons and gluing it into your muscle memory isnt cheating. unlike downloading a cheat and literally going up against someone who cant download the cheat. you need to understand you have your opinions, and we have ours. i appreciate your comment, but as far as i see i dont see anything constructive. only you dropping your opinion. no facts either. i'm not replying again.

so..... you don't know that it was possible on all machines?

Maybe it was only possible on machines that were currently at an odd number of FPS.

I wonder how Rare fixed it.

It doesn't matter, I'm so glad that they were able to remove the unintended exploits so that they can have a fair and intended combat system that they can then balance and tweak.

I think most players agree with me.

you need to understand you have your opinions, and we have ours

That sure is a statement! Your stated goal here is to press hard enough that developers will re-implement exploits.

Who knows, maybe if we pvp'ers press hard enough the old exploits of the sword can be readded as new features aswell.

I just want to refute that sentiment. If your voice can be loud, so can mine.

another thing is, https://youtu.be/YyGMJCor9YM - look at the view count, this had old exploits, better yet the like count, i guarantee if you go into the comment section and say something as dumb as what you just said you would get criticised for it.

Is this just a random Sea of Thieves video with a mediocre view count? Is that the right video? I am completely missing the relevance of it in a thread about swords.

Speaking of that video though, I'm so glad walls work now. Those reach shots from the air are pretty cool.

@vorxet said in Combat and sword:

@tenriak said in Combat and sword:

@vorxet said in Combat and sword:

well obviously you're not taking facts for account only opinons, xbox players were doing it, and people with bad pcs who struggled to get 30fps were also,
another thing is, https://youtu.be/YyGMJCor9YM - look at the view count, this had old exploits, better yet the like count, i guarantee if you go into the comment section and say something as dumb as what you just said you would get criticised for it.
i think you're only taking your own opinion to another level. trust me dude, double tapping a button is not cheating. cheating is gaining an unfair advantage over someone. and as far as i know, learning how to time some buttons and gluing it into your muscle memory isnt cheating. unlike downloading a cheat and literally going up against someone who cant download the cheat. you need to understand you have your opinions, and we have ours. i appreciate your comment, but as far as i see i dont see anything constructive. only you dropping your opinion. no facts either. i'm not replying again.

so..... you don't know that it was possible on all machines?

Maybe it was only possible on machines that were currently at an odd number of FPS.

I wonder how Rare fixed it.

It doesn't matter, I'm so glad that they were able to remove the unintended exploits so that they can have a fair and intended combat system that they can then balance and tweak.

I think most players agree with me.

you need to understand you have your opinions, and we have ours

That sure is a statement! Your stated goal here is to press hard enough that developers will re-implement exploits.

Who knows, maybe if we pvp'ers press hard enough the old exploits of the sword can be readded as new features aswell.

I just want to refute that sentiment. If your voice can be loud, so can mine.

another thing is, https://youtu.be/YyGMJCor9YM - look at the view count, this had old exploits, better yet the like count, i guarantee if you go into the comment section and say something as dumb as what you just said you would get criticised for it.

Is this just a random Sea of Thieves video with a mediocre view count? Is that the right video? I am completely missing the relevance of it in a thread about swords.

Speaking of that video though, I'm so glad walls work now. Those reach shots from the air are pretty cool.

you're an idiot! its literally tapping a button twice. anyone could do it

Just thought I would remind you of your thread opener:

Now, just to be clear. This is a very controversial topic. Please keep the comments appropriate and do not harass anyone. Everything you say can be misinterpreted. So make sure you respect everyone and their opinion.

@tenriak

@tenriak said in Combat and sword:

"Thousands" is an overstatement. I think there are two of you who wish rare would add exploits back in.

"Thousands" is an accurate statement, an understatement if anything.

Example: remember that Ban Wave that happened a couple months ago? Middle, the one who posted the video @VORXET showed you most recently. He posted a video about it and one of the many things he talked about in that video was a discord server that was mostly PvP oriented. He said that that that server had about 1000 members! Now, we cannot assume that every single person enjoyed every single aspect of old PvP (there are probably many who disliked DGE but enjoyed X cancel sword). But considering this group stemmed form the Misfits, one of the original groups to play and post montages of intense PvP when these "exploits" were popular, we can safely assume half to 3/4. And that is just one of many many Discords and groups of people who have enjoyed the combat in the past and have said they would love to have it or something similar back, The Bandits, The Mavericks, NAL, SoC, and many more not as well known.

There's your thousands

Cheating is not depth. He had learned to glitch the game allowing his character to do unintended actions that others can't do. That is cheating if I ever heard of it.

I like it the way is is now, where every one has the same weapons that can do the same things, without you being able to glitch because you happen to have the correct processor or graphics card or w/e.

How do you even know that it was possible on all machines?

I bet it wasn't.

I don't know where you got the idea that exploiting and cheating are the same thing because they absolutely are not.

Cheating (in video games): Utilizing a third party software (or hardware, I guess) to add to or change a games code to give yourself an advantage against other players.

These "exploits" do not fall under this definition for two reasons. One, there is no third party software or hardware involved in popular techniques like DGE, X cancel, or the sword lunge cancel. And two, because literally everyone could do them, provided they understand how to use them; which, need I remind you, applies to literally every sword and gun mechanic aside from basic slashing, because that is literally the only hand to hand combat mechanic the Maiden Voyage teaches you. A new player would have no idea that they could charge the attack to do a lunge, they wouldn't know that if you jump in a direction while blocking you do a hop. They would have no idea that they can hold block before lunging for more freedom of movement! They might not even know that they can block! But all of these things, you, the devs, and several other people on this forum look at as "just fine" while all of these other unintended mechanics (and that's what they are) must be Immediately Patched (more like patched half a year later lol) rather than given a chance to be used, learned and enjoyed like the advanced sword lunge was.

Also, you say that now everyone has the same tools now, yet you also probably use the sword hop, or advanced sword lunge against people that have no idea how to do those things! But let me guess, you're okay with it because you enjoy those mechanics and anyone who doesn't know how to use them should just learn kind of like these people who enjoyed old sword.

One last thing. Do you really believe that a GPU or a CPU has any affect on in game mechanics? A Graphics Processing Unit?

All of these techniques were usable by everyone provided they took the time to learn and practice and there was no reason for them to be removed.

@mferr11

@mferr11 said in Combat and sword:
This is my biggest issue with exploits. You have no idea why you are being beaten, because as far as you know what they are doing shouldn't be possible.

Exactly what I was saying! Except, because of how terrible SoT's tutorials are and always have been, this problem applies to nearly all combat mechanics, intended and not.

Add them back as mechanics that are taught to players, make them less OP so that it isn't the only viable strategy, and that is what will add depth to sword combat.

This man gets it.

Simply going back to a time where x-cancelling and bhop spamming was the only viable way to use sword isn't fun or interesting, and neither are the videos you linked. They just look like a bunch of spamming and wild swinging, that doesn't look fun to me. And yes, I've used the x-cancel when it was ingame, I know what it was like.

Yes! Diversify the uses! Fix the animations! Teach the people! Just keep the fast pace, the fluid nature! This is all I have ever wanted from the SoT combat system.

@vorxet As per the Forum Rules we all must remain respectful towards all other community members when posting on the forums. I have moderated your post as it was not in accordance with these rules, failure to remain respectful of all community members will result in a temporary ban from the forums.

I strongly recommend that you read and abide by the forum rules going forward.

Thanks!

@galactic-geek said in Combat and sword:

Devs have also stated that everything you see in the advertising will eventually make it into the game.

When did they say this? I'd like to finally get some mermaid content.

@jackkle6026 said in Combat and sword:

"Thousands" is an accurate statement, an understatement if anything.

Example: remember that Ban Wave that happened a couple months ago? Middle, the one who posted the video @VORXET showed you most recently. He posted a video about it and one of the many things he talked about in that video was a discord server that was mostly PvP oriented. He said that that that server had about 1000 members! Now, we cannot assume that every single person enjoyed every single aspect of old PvP (there are probably many who disliked DGE but enjoyed X cancel sword). But considering this group stemmed form the Misfits, one of the original groups to play and post montages of intense PvP when these "exploits" were popular, we can safely assume half to 3/4. And that is just one of many many Discords and groups of people who have enjoyed the combat in the past and have said they would love to have it or something similar back, The Bandits, The Mavericks, NAL, SoC, and many more not as well known.

There's your thousands

Alright fine, I'll concede to the point that thousands may want it back. I honestly don't know how grand this number is compared to the player base though. It could be insignificant for all I know.

I don't know where you got the idea that exploiting and cheating are the same thing because they absolutely are not.

Cheating (in video games): Utilizing a third party software (or hardware, I guess) to add to or change a games code to give yourself an advantage against other players.

These "exploits" do not fall under this definition for two reasons. One, there is no third party software or hardware involved in popular techniques like DGE, X cancel, or the sword lunge cancel. And two, because literally everyone could do them, provided they understand how to use them; which, need I remind you, applies to literally every sword and gun mechanic aside from basic slashing, because that is literally the only hand to hand combat mechanic the Maiden Voyage teaches you. A new player would have no idea that they could charge the attack to do a lunge, they wouldn't know that if you jump in a direction while blocking you do a hop. They would have no idea that they can hold block before lunging for more freedom of movement! They might not even know that they can block! But all of these things, you, the devs, and several other people on this forum look at as "just fine" while all of these other unintended mechanics (and that's what they are) must be Immediately Patched (more like patched half a year later lol) rather than given a chance to be used, learned and enjoyed like the advanced sword lunge was.

This point has already been discussed earlier in the thread. In the gaming community there are two sides to the argument. Some believe that using any type of exploit at all is cheating. Others believe that exploits are current rules within the game world and therefor are not cheating.

Some exploits are grey area. For example the sword lunge blocking thing, it was essentially an exploit, but when every one started doing it you needed to learn it to keep up. Grey area for sure. (I've sure done it.)

Some exploits, however, are game breaking. And due to the possibility of an exploit being game breaking, I am of the opinion they should all be stamped out.

Yes, I said opinion. I seem to be taking some heat for having an opinion and not arguing based on facts. But this argument is opinionated, isn't it? You liked the old sword, I like the way it is now, for all the reasons we've both stated.

Also, you say that now everyone has the same tools now, yet you also probably use the sword hop, or advanced sword lunge against people that have no idea how to do those things! But let me guess, you're okay with it because you enjoy those mechanics and anyone who doesn't know how to use them should just learn kind of like these people who enjoyed old sword.

Yup. I'm okay with it because it's intended, rather than that I enjoy it.

One last thing. Do you really believe that a GPU or a CPU has any affect on in game mechanics? A Graphics Processing Unit?

Yes! I understand that may seem convoluted, but you'll need to trust me that anythings possible when it comes to breaking a program.

I recall a game I played previously that if you had a specific processor and graphics card you could overclock your machine and cause your animations to play extremely fast. It didn't look right at all, but your animations were the timer on which the game based your ability to start another action. So with the impossibly fast animation speed, you could spam a melee weapon and pretty much instakill some one.

This exploit didn't use a third party program, it didn't modify game files or memory, but it was definitely cheating.

I would absolutely love to link supporting evidence to this story, but it would take me hours or days to find it, and I just don't have the time.

I think it was DayZ.

@tenriak said in Combat and sword:

This point has already been discussed earlier in the thread. In the gaming community there are two sides to the argument. Some believe that using any type of exploit at all is cheating. Others believe that exploits are current rules within the game world and therefor are not cheating.

Cool, there are two sides and one is objectively, factually wrong. Great argument, round of applause.

Some exploits are grey area. For example the sword lunge blocking thing, it was essentially an exploit, but when every one started doing it you needed to learn it to keep up. Grey area for sure. (I've sure done it.)

It wasn't "essentially" an exploit, it was an exploit. And you say that it falls under a grey area, I agree, and yet, why is it that you believe these other popular exploits (quick swap, X cancel, lunge cancel) don't fall under that grey area?

Some exploits, however, are game breaking. And due to the possibility of an exploit being game breaking, I am of the opinion they should all be stamped out.

Cool, then the advanced sword lunge needs to be removed because that is an exploit.

Yes, I said opinion. I seem to be taking some heat for having an opinion and not arguing based on facts. But this argument is opinionated, isn't it? You liked the old sword, I like the way it is now, for all the reasons we've both stated.

And yet, because I am arguing, using facts to back up my opinion, my argument is automatically stronger than yours.

Yup. I'm okay with it because it's intended, rather than that I enjoy it.

Yet one of the stated "problems" with these exploits is a lack of knowledge from the average player, which also applies to these mechanics.

@tenriak said in Combat and sword:

I recall a game I played previously that if you had a specific processor and graphics card you could overclock your machine and cause your animations to play extremely fast. It didn't look right at all, but your animations were the timer on which the game based your ability to start another action. So with the impossibly fast animation speed, you could spam a melee weapon and pretty much instakill some one.

Let's not forget that OpenArena (Quake 3, and perhaps other Quake games) had strafe jumping - a mechanic that allowed you to ramp your movement speed up to insane levels. In fact, you got best results at certain framerates, so the best of us would go into our config and set the framerate to 125 (pretty sure that was what the best framerate was for it - it's been a while). While the framerate-based part may not have been intended and was just a side-effect of the way the engine worked, strafe jumping was absolutely intended.

Did the exploits to combat add depth to SoT? Yes and no. It added depth for those who were in on it, while everyone else was left wondering "How did they do that thing that they shouldn't be able to do" and having no place to go to find out. That's the real problem here - not the existence of the exploit, but the fact that there was no way to know about it without looking for it and knowing what you're looking for. You couldn't really ask the person who just killed you.

Unintended mechanics can sometimes increase the skill ceiling in ways that the devs never planned for. At the same time, they make the entire range from the skill floor to the intended skill ceiling a painful place to be.

Let's circle back to OpenArena. I was trash at that game for quite a while. I'd see people doing this odd jump movement pattern and speed up off to the other side of the map. It was visible, and I could literally just ask what it was and get an answer. Even a google search of "move fast openarena" would yield answers. I was at the skill floor, and strafe jumping was easily visible to me as something that everyone else was doing. In SoT, being at the skill floor means dying and wondering how you died, and being unable to ask the person who just killed you, because you're spawning right back in to deal with them sinking your ship. You don't get to see "Oh, he did this special thing with his sword, mmyes, I can ask him and learn a new technique." It's "He killed me when he shouldn't have been able to, using something I KNOW isn't possible, and now I've lost my loot!"

To those of you arguing that we should go backwards, can you see the difference?

Combat needs serious reworking to feel more fluid and actually satisfying, but let's not go back to the days when the intended skill ceiling was below the meta skill floor.

Exploits are bad for the game's overall health and will drive away new players. If it is not an intended mechanic of the game, new players will wonder why they got killed by the dude who is doing some insane move that involves macros or some kind of strange animation cancelling. This isn't Super Smash Bros Melee, its a 3D pirate game, and the amount of exploit worshipping in this thread is strange. If you want more complex sword mechanics, then wait for the devs to add more sword moves to the game, not whine about how they removed an exploit that made it so you had an unexplained advantage over someone who was playing the game it was intended to be played. It is completely obvious the exploits mentioned in this thread were not intended to be in this game due to the fact they were removed.

@galactic-geek Can you link or quote it? Or do you know what dev said it?

@jackkle6026 said in Combat and sword:

Cool, there are two sides and one is objectively, factually wrong. Great argument, round of applause.

I don't think this claim is backed up by any evidence whatsoever. Which side of the argument is "factually wrong" is yet to be decided.

It wasn't "essentially" an exploit, it was an exploit. And you say that it falls under a grey area, I agree, and yet, why is it that you believe these other popular exploits (quick swap, X cancel, lunge cancel) don't fall under that grey area?

I'm not really saying that they don't. I'm saying that they were rightly removed. I've never once called for a ban on any one who used them. Although I think it may have been cheating, I can understand why a player may have felt required to learn them and use them in combat. I've never liked how players needed to learn mechanics and exploits outside the scope of the intended gameplay mechanics. It's better now, because it's more fair and enjoyable.

Cool, then the advanced sword lunge needs to be removed because that is an exploit.

Maybe.

And yet, because I am arguing, using facts to back up my opinion, my argument is automatically stronger than yours.

What facts? Each quote from your post is a claim without any supporting evidence. Please quote the facts again.

@minty4resh said in Combat and sword:

Exploits are bad for the game's overall health and will drive away new players. If it is not an intended mechanic of the game, new players will wonder why they got killed by the dude who is doing some insane move that involves macros or some kind of strange animation cancelling. This isn't Super Smash Bros Melee, its a 3D pirate game, and the amount of exploit worshipping in this thread is strange. If you want more complex sword mechanics, then wait for the devs to add more sword moves to the game, not whine about how they removed an exploit that made it so you had an unexplained advantage over someone who was playing the game it was intended to be played. It is completely obvious the exploits mentioned in this thread were not intended to be in this game due to the fact they were removed.

I really like this post, especially the following:

...the amount of exploit worshipping in this thread is strange.

I am, also, honestly baffled that there is such strong opposition that exploits were removed from the game, whether you enjoyed performing them or not.

I can agree, the sword feels horrible, and clunky, and not fun to use at all. Every weapon needs some work, but sword is absolute the weapon that needs some love first.
So what they should do is make it able to actually move with it with blocking like it used to be, but not add in the exploit with canceling animations, but after 3 slashes, should still be able to block after. I really want the old sword back but its never gonna happend so yeah, what i said over here, and also, get away the cooldown after a sword lunge, add in a bar or something so people cant spam it, it would been SO much better then getting the cooldown. It would made the sword alot more fun. The sword needs to be quicker, and more responsive and also go back to 20% damage, but that shouldnt happend before the sword is better. Like those tips over here would already improved the sword ALOT, and hopefully made it fun to use again. Right now the sword isnt fun AT ALL :(

@galactic-geek Well i can agree to disagree, i feel its pretty bad even against skeletons, they slashing through my slashes and everything, so something they need to do, but yeah of course, we are allowed to have different opinions :D

@tenriak said in Combat and sword:

I don't think this claim is backed up by any evidence whatsoever. Which side of the argument is "factually wrong" is yet to be decided.

I will refer back to my firs post in this thread:

Cheating (in video games): Utilizing a third party software (or hardware, I guess) to add to or change a games code to give yourself an advantage against other players.

and here's what you said:

This point has already been discussed earlier in the thread. In the gaming community there are two sides to the argument. Some believe that using any type of exploit at all is cheating. Others believe that exploits are current rules within the game world and therefor are not cheating.

Now, let's apply that definition to what you said in the context of the three most popular exploits and two of them being the topic of this thread:

Lunge cancel: Hitting the ground with your sword lunge and then sword hopping and jumping once you land to escape the long stun of a missed sword lunge.

X cancel: Double tapping X on PC or B on xbox to reset the sword to an idle state to preform an action as a follow up.

Quick Swap: Shooting, Swapping, Sprinting, ADSing to, previously, shoot faster and now ADS faster.

Now, which side do you think is correct based on the definition and these explanations.

I'm not really saying that they don't. I'm saying that they were rightly removed. I've never once called for a ban on any one who used them. Although I think it may have been cheating

Why is it that they were right to be removed? You continue to dodge this question. Is there any reason these are "unbalanced" or "gamebreaking" or somehow "cheating"? Or is it because you think they are because you personally dislike them?

I can understand why a player may have felt required to learn them and use them in combat. I've never liked how players needed to learn mechanics and exploits outside the scope of the intended gameplay mechanics.

... You literally said

For example the sword lunge blocking thing, it was essentially an exploit, but when every one started doing it you needed to learn it to keep up.

...

but when every one started doing it you needed to learn it to keep up.

...

you needed to learn it to keep up.

Kindly stay consistent with yourself.

It's better now, because it's more fair and enjoyable.

More fair? Not really. More enjoyable? Absolutely not.

What facts? Each quote from your post is a claim without any supporting evidence. Please quote the facts again.

First thing I did was cite a video, then a definition, then I debunked everything you said using facts, definitions and logic, Now I'm doing it again.

And hey, do you like definitions? Here's the definition of exploit straight from the Merriam Webster Dictionary:

to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage

This is why none of these thing are actually exploits, because

1. Everyone can do them which is the definition of fair.

2. Everyone can do them so they don't give you an advantage.

Good day, and Goodbye.