So I'll start out by saying this: I do not own this game. I have watched many people play it. I have many friends who play it.
I have also read MANY forums and discussions about PvE and why it would or would not work in this game.
So, if I don't own the game, why am I even bothering to post?
Because I have a friend who does. She loves the PvE aspect, but rage quits whenever she gets killed by random people.
Now, before this becomes the standard argument of "This is a PvP game. If you don't like PvP, don't play it", that's a flawed mentality. There is SO much more to this game than killing other players. Quests, Adventuring, Trading. This game has so much to offer, more so than most other games in the same vein.
But I also agree with the PvPer's mentality. This game was designed with the PvP aspect in mind. When you come across a group of players, there's a thrill when it comes to what will happen. Will they be friendly and let you pass? Will the backstab you if you try? Will they charge in, guns blazing? And when combat does start, no one knows what the other side has up their sleeve. There's fun to be had there, and I appreciate that.
The main complaint people have with having a PvE server is that of Elite Dangerous. By having a zone where players can kill mobs freely without worrying about other players, then taking those upgrades to PvP will ruin the balance of the PvP server. Elite Dangerous tried doing it like that (with Solo mode) and it made things worse for most of the PvPers (a lot of PvE players, who were their main targets in that game, just stopped doing things in PvP servers).
So, is that it then? No possible solution? Either they allow PvE and ruin things for PvPers (by making the PvEr's safe and making the PvPers have fewer targets) or make everything PvP only and not allow PvE Only, keeping the status quo?
I propose another solution, a third option. Have a separate gold/xp system for PvE only servers. People who only plan on PvEing with no PvP can do so in peace, knowing that if they wanted to play on PvP servers, they'd have to start over.
On the other hand, PvPers can continue doing things the exact same way they have, with no changes whatsoever (maybe a FEW fewer players, but not that many, since, as most people mentioned, this game was designed with PvP in mind).
The only thing this solution would do is welcome more players who now have a safe place to play the game the way THEY want.
If you enjoy PvP and you enjoy the thrill of not knowing what will happen when you meet other players, go for it. Keep playing the game the way you always have been.
But saying "If you don't like PvP, get lost, we don't want you here" is making a bad atmosphere to new players who want to enjoy this fantastic game, without feeling like they are being picked on/taken advantage of because they are new.
This game has a lot to offer. Tons of PvP, Tons of PvE. Why shouldn't players be allowed to play the game the way they want?
And before you say: "The developers designed this as a PvP game, so if you aren't ok with PvP, you're doing it wrong according to them", there are plenty of other games that started as PvP games and the developers let PvErs have a place to play too. Even going back all the way to the ORIGINAL MMORPG, Ultima Online. It originally was PvP open-world everywhere. Then they made new PvE servers. That game came out in 1997. Its last update was May 20... 2020. It's still going.
Adding PvE servers won't destroy the game. It will make it even more popular... as long as they completely separate the PvE Only servers and the PvP servers. No progression carries over to the other one. PvP won't carry over to PvE. PvE won't carry over to PvP. But both levels equally.
PS: I posted this on the steam community, but they said I should post here... so I am :)
PPS: To the argument of "Just join an Alliance Server", as many on both sides have pointed out: You either play by the Alliance's rules or you don't play. If people want to just play with their friends, Alliance Servers won't work for them.
A logical argument for PvE...
It's PvPvE. You can be beset upon at any time if you are unwary. It happens a lot if you're new to the game. Keep your glass on the horizon, head on a swivel, don't sail with more than you're willing to lose, and take your drubbing when you're caught flat-footed. Learn from mistakes.
Now for the logical response to this topic in general...
There will not be PVE servers. Private servers are coming though, no progression will be had in them.
https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/119855/custom-server-update-discussion?page=1
@conal-cuan said in A logical argument for PvE...:
It's PvPvE. You can be beset upon at any time if you are unwary. It happens a lot if you're new to the game. Keep your glass on the horizon, head on a swivel, don't sail with more than you're willing to lose, and take your drubbing when you're caught flat-footed. Learn from mistakes.
Now for the logical response to this topic in general...
I think the mentality that "The game was meant to be played this way, and therefore you must play it this way" is kind of counter-intuitive.
If players want to play PvE, and this game provides plenty of PvE content, why should they be forced to PvP when there is another option?
I'm not saying to remove PvP, far from it.
Just separate those who want to play purely PvP and those who want to PvE (including separate progressions for PvE and PvP servers).
As for beating a dead horse: The fact of the matter is, this game has a lot of people who love the PvE content and hate the PvP content. You can see that by the fact that this argument has continued for so long. It shows that the PvEr's love this game just as much as the PvPers. Why not let them enjoy the game their way?@dominusocto7 said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@photonjeff It would decrease the number of players in real PvPvE servers.
Sure, but this game is thriving. And the number of Pure PvErs is a (vocal) minority. It's not like letting the Pure PvEr's have their own server will suddenly cause the PvPvE server population to drop drastically. As the devs have said, this game is meant for PvP, so most of the player-base is PvPers. The small amount of PvErs just want their own place to enjoy the game too.
@bloodybil said in A logical argument for PvE...:
There will not be PVE servers. Private servers are coming though, no progression will be had in them.
https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/119855/custom-server-update-discussion?page=1
Honestly, that seems like a slap in the face to PvErs. It's like saying "You can demo the game, but you can't play it really".
And just because the devs say they won't add something, doesn't mean that can't change.
I think the problem is no one has come forward with an idea for a PvP / PvE split that could actually work. Rather than simply throwing the idea out entirely, why not brainstorm an idea that would make everyone happy?
Also, plenty of developers said their game wouldn't "have" something and then changed their mind later (even years down the line). Why should an exception be made for this game?
The developers said no PvE servers, and are now making PvE-lite servers. Is it really such a stretch of the imagination to think of them adding full on PvE servers one day?@photonjeff I know the game has a large player base. I would say... Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the population will move to the PvE servers if they theoretically came out.
@conal-cuan I will be honest, I stopped reading at "I do not own the game". I do not see how and anyone can make a logical argument to change the game when they do not even own it.I also do not understand why someone would come on a forum of a game they do not even own and tell us people who actually play it why the game needs to be changed.
@dominusocto7 said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@photonjeff I know the game has a large player base. I would say... Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the population will move to the PvE servers if they theoretically came out.
Then I fail to see the problem. Most of the players would still be on the PvP servers. They would still be able to play the game the same as they always have. Nothing for them is lost.
@combatxkitty said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@conal-cuan I will be honest, I stopped reading at "I do not own the game". I do not see how and anyone can make a logical argument to change the game when they do not even own it.I also do not understand why someone would come on a forum of a game they do not even own and tell us people who actually play it why the game needs to be changed.
Because I'm one of the people that would love to buy this game, except I hate PvP. I've watched hours of people playing it. I've read about all the fun and cool things in the game. But the idea that I can just log in one day, take my boat out and lose hours, days or weeks of progress is what is turning me away.
I'm also not the only one. There are a lot of people out there who would love to play the game, but are turned off by the PvP. Ignoring the argument from people who don't want to play the game as is and want to make the game better for everyone, just because they don't like an aspect of it devalues the community as a whole.
Look at No Man's Sky. A game that everyone said was garbage when it first came out. But the developers worked on the game, they listened to not just the people who bought it, but people who WANTED to buy it. And now it's one of the best games on Steam.
Also, Sea of Thieves is FAR from the only game that started out as only PvP and then added PvE later on. Every genre has had a company that said "We will never add X". Who then go back and say "We are now adding X!" months or years later. Sea of Thieves isn't unique for it's PvP aspect. It's unique for it's multiplayer Pirating feel (yes, there are other multiplayer pirate games, but most are not as robust as Sea of Thieves).
I am not asking you to read through the full message I posted.
All I ask of anyone is one thing:
The community is currently divided. There are the PvPers and the PvErs who are forced to PvP.
Both sides love the game (for different reasons). Both want to make the game the best it can be.
Why can't both sides get what they want?@photonjeff It would decrease the server population. It would also take away from PvP. If PvE servers were to come out, it would also make ONLY PvP players on actual servers. PvErs would not be on those online servers. Also, Progression is not exactly the ENTIRE basis of the game. It's about your experiences and adventures.
@dominusocto7 said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@photonjeff It would decrease the server population. It would also take away from PvP. If PvE servers were to come out, it would also make ONLY PvP players on actual servers. PvErs would not be on those online servers. Also, Progression is not exactly the ENTIRE basis of the game. It's about your experiences and adventures.
While you are correct, it's only technically correct. Yes, the server population would go down, but PvErs are permanently rage-quitting the game anyways. So either way, the server population is going down. The difference is: The PvErs would simply be on their own server, rather than on no server at all.
And you are right, Progression isn't the entire basis of the game, but neither is PvP. Saying "This is a pvp game" is devaluing all the other love and care that went into the other aspects. There are people who just want to enjoy sailing the high seas with their friends, without having to worry about being randomly attacked by players every ten minutes.
This is doubly true for streamers, who will get sniped by high-level PvPers and just get ganked over and over. Some streamers like it and consider it a challenge. Others consider it tedious and just want to enjoy the game.
This game isn't JUST about PvP.
This game isn't JUST about PvE.
It's about players setting sail and having the adventure and experiences that they want to have.
Lastly, removing PvErs from the PvP servers might actually make the PvP servers better. How many times have you heard a player start raging at you because they were minding their own business and then you killed them? How many times has a player been killed by a group of other players, even if he was new and had nothing to offer them?
PvPers will want revenge when they get killed.
PvErs will just get fed up and leave.
And, before anyone says "It's good that they left", losing game population should NEVER be what a game hopes for. All games and game developers should strive to increase their game population, for money, sure, but so that more people can enjoy the game they made with love and care.
Shouldn't the PvErs be able to enjoy the game just as much as the PvPers?I agree the game needs pve servers. If they didn't want people asking for pve servers then they shouldn't have put so much good pve content in the game imo. Should have just made it more like arena from the start.
Anyway, this has been a discussion since the Alpha and Beta, the battle lines have been drawn for awhile and no one will budge. I hope you don't get too many insults for bringing up the topic though. This community can be pretty harsh.
@photonjeff if you had played, you would know it's actually quite simple - without the mix of both PvP and PvE, this game would die.
It functions as well as it does because these two elements are so reliant on each other. This is the game as it was designed and intended and why it is indescribably excellent, the reason it still thrills me after 2 years like no other game has. The sandbox element is so unique in its application here.
Meanwhile, pure PvE is limited to fetch quests, a small number of tall tales, and some monster killing. All of which have been nerfed to beyond easy over the years. This by itself is maybe sustainable for only the most dedicated of grinders for... 6 months? This is a game as service, remember. It's only with the interesting and potential player threat that PvE is sustainable at all. Trust me, the PvE gets old quick. I might add this was my first online multiplayer game, too, coming from almost purely rpgs.
Likewise, PvP requires the base world occupation and loot potential to survive. If it's just two players killing each other over and over, that would also get old super quick.
Yes, either of these things could be made to function by and unto themselves well with a lot of effort (look at how arena has failed, which is as close to pure pvp as one gets) but again, then it's something else.
I'd love to rise above the fact that you've never played the game, but... it really is hard to take any point you make seriously, at that. Yes there are ways to make the different types work separately but then it is not SOT and you've killed what makes it special.
Just go play another game, instead.
What about me wanting to have a variance in encounters?
Make a pve server and the PvEvP server becomes a pure PvP attack on sight server.
I dont wantthat, i want the uncertainty about other players, i want to meet friendly, passive and hostile crews as i want to decide myself to be friendly, passive or hostile in the next situation.This freedom and tools not rules make it a good RPG for me.
If someone cannot deal with PvP and is cautious to prevent it (already PvP) then the game is not for them.
If you create a pve server the adventure server and the uncertaintyand unpredictabilityabout other players is gone.
There is then only hostiles left who only go for PvP, because why bother with it when you want to pve only.I once had the argument that those who like it will continue.
But the problem is the playerbase has split i to pure PvX mostly.
Peopme who aproach it in all aspects in a balanced way have no problems, they also dont exagerate and complain about hitreg or mermaids revealing you that much.
I have to ask how this separation of "progression" would work. All progression in the game is cosmetic based. You don't upgrade your character's skills or get new equipment. You'd have to have an entirely different set of cosmetics for the PvE servers or cut them off from a large amount of cosmetics, otherwise it would make no difference.
I'm sympathetic to PvEers, since that's the type of player I am as well. But I also have a hard time believing them when they say it's impossible to enjoy the game without PvE servers. I play solo exclusively and do not PvP at all. Not even in defense. So if someone manages to get close to me, my loot is automatically gone.
Yet I've still managed to achieve Legend and have all the cosmetics I really want. I know not everyone can take my laid back, zen approach to the game, but I'm an extremely casual, mediocre at best player. If I can achieve all I have with such an approach, I can't believe others couldn't do the same.
So while I'll always be open to the troubles of my fellow PvEers, I'd rather try to solve them by shifting our approach to the game rather than just carving it up. Whether it would hurt the game or not, I just want to keep the community as together as possible. That's why I hoped for a different solution to the opt-out issue and why I'd rather not see separate servers for PvP and PvE.
@photonjeff said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@dominusocto7 said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@photonjeff I know the game has a large player base. I would say... Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the population will move to the PvE servers if they theoretically came out.
Then I fail to see the problem. Most of the players would still be on the PvP servers. They would still be able to play the game the same as they always have. Nothing for them is lost.
@combatxkitty said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@conal-cuan I will be honest, I stopped reading at "I do not own the game". I do not see how and anyone can make a logical argument to change the game when they do not even own it.I also do not understand why someone would come on a forum of a game they do not even own and tell us people who actually play it why the game needs to be changed.
Because I'm one of the people that would love to buy this game, except I hate PvP. I've watched hours of people playing it. I've read about all the fun and cool things in the game. But the idea that I can just log in one day, take my boat out and lose hours, days or weeks of progress is what is turning me away.>
Well you just proved me correct. Here in lies the problem of someone giving feedback on a game they never played. If you actually played the game you would know that you do not lose days or weeks of progress if you log on one day and get sunk, so you are wrong about that.
As far as losing "hours" well see if you played the game you would know that is up to you. If you decide to sail around for hours doing multiple voyages without bothering to cash in that is your fault. I see people make ranting posts about how they sailed for several hours and got sunk by a mean galleon(its always a galleon in any PvP story) Anyways they just admitted they went 4 , 6 how many hours they claim without one single PvP interaction. For a PvPvE game that is not bad. It was their poor decision not to cash in that got them in the end.
I am not huge into the PvP on this game and I manage to avoid PvP all the time and this is coming from someone who has played since launch. Sometimes it cant be avoided but majority of my time on seas it is. Some people come on here and act like they have never been able to leave an outpost without getting sunk by a wait for it... wait for it.....meanie galleon.
Maybe actually play the game before making suggestions.
I'm also not the only one. There are a lot of people out there who would love to play the game, but are turned off by the PvP. Ignoring the argument from people who don't want to play the game as is and want to make the game better for everyone, just because they don't like an aspect sof it devalues the community as a whole.>
No one is ignoring them. Just because someone does not agree with your argument does not mean you are being ignored.
Look at No Man's Sky. A game that everyone said was garbage when it first came out. But the developers worked on the game, they listened to not just the people who bought it, but people who WANTED to buy it. And now it's one of the best games on Steam.>
Maybe PvE servers work for that game. Some games they just do not make sense for. I am not familiar with that game never played it so I do not give feedback on games I never played. I do play ESO which PvP is a choice as you need to go to certain part of the map for or request duels but the PvE in ESO does not rely on risk reward at all so it works.
Also, Sea of Thieves is FAR from the only game that started out as only PvP and then added PvE later on. Every genre has had a company that said "We will never add X". Who then go back and say "We are now adding X!" months or years later. Sea of Thieves isn't unique for it's PvP aspect. It's unique for it's multiplayer Pirating feel (yes, there are other multiplayer pirate games, but most are not as robust as Sea of Thieves).>
Im not a fan of the whole other games have PvE servers so why cant SOT. Well plenty other games do not have PvE servers either but of course no one brings those up.....
All I ask of anyone is one thing:
The community is currently divided. There are the PvPers and the PvErs who are forced to PvP.
Both sides love the game (for different reasons). Both want to make the game the best it can be.
Why can't both sides get what they want?Nope wrong again. If you actually played the game you would realize the majority are PvPvE'rs who this game is actually marketed to. Just because you get sunk by someone does not mean they are a sole PvP'er.
The announcement post by Rare was only going to ever fuel the fire rather than douse the flames. It is such a contentious issue within Rare's customer base that is will plague the life of the game.
I think the argument that the game will die without PvE'ers in the adventure mode is removed by the mechanic of server swaps. If only 60 crews worth of people were still playing the game, they'd be put into the same servers and there'd be 4-6 ships there all the time. Of course it'd be the same people but if PvP'ers want an open sea with the chance of losing all their loot that's exactly how it is now and would not change if there was only 1k concurrent players - it wouldn't feel any less.
The current sales of the game thrive on the naivety of new players providing the fodder for vets to mince up and spit out. Of course I'll be buried under comments that "They should have researched the game first" but huge amounts of people don't go into depth looking at the outside of the store and rely on the advertising in store. The positive reviews appear to be inflated by double-buyers as many many reviews state "Played for 600 hours on XB1" and "Loved this game for 2 yrs" etc. While this is obviously not everyone who's brought the game it might be enough of a chunk to change the review. There is a hint at PvP once in the entire store page....
"but will they be friends or foes, and how will you respond?"
So if the posts are truly going to stop then the marketing on the Steam Store might be worded better, or the PvP element magnified a little to make it clearer what to expect. Of course this will remove the new players to stomp into the floor which is required to make the whole philosophy of the current game work.
It is also interesting to remember that the PC player market is fundamentally different than the Console market. PC Players look for mod support, private servers, the potential to upgrade the graphics far beyond what the base game offers, Wider options for play and arguably has a much wider demographic of players. There's some 80 yr old Granny Youtuber plays Skyrim, and I know many people of all ages playing on PC, but not such a wider age range of players on console.
The announcement of Private Servers has clearly had to wait until the Steam Launch. Possibly because they needed the injection of cash which suggests the game was becoming less financially viable anyhow, or possibly because Rare knew PC players would expect it, maybe they'd expect it a lot more than the XBOX gamers would. Hosting your own server on PC has been a requested feature since Counterstrike was released in 2000.
For every post that's salty asking for PvE, there's at least 2 more with as much salt in telling PvE'ers to shove off. People are so entrenched in their positions it's a bit depressing.
The announcement of the Private Servers might just be the antidote the whole thing needs but the requests for PvE will virtually never go away.
And if money does get tight (I doubt it) and Rare need an injection of money, or they go bankrupt(I doubt it - but stranger things have happened) or they get brought out by TenCent or somthing else equally unlikely, or they simply bow to customer pressure then PvE might happen. I've looked through archives of posts saying "Cross play will never happen", "AI ships will never happen".... and here we are.
I think personally PvE will never happen, and am content with the potential of Private Servers but you know.... never say never.
You know, having made this thread both here and on the official forums, I have to say I'm fascinated.
I believe someone here said it best:
"For every post that's salty asking for PvE, there's at least 2 more with as much salt in telling PvE'ers to shove off. People are so entrenched in their positions it's a bit depressing."
And I think it really speaks volumes.Everyone has their own opinion about what is fun in this game. Some people love the PvP aspect. Some people love the PvE aspect. Some love the mix of both.
It's impossible to say "This game NEEDS PvP to function" and state it as fact, considering how many people avoid PvP and are enjoying the game. Saying that is an opinion, not a fact.If you enjoy PvP, then that's fine. If you enjoy PvE, that's also fine. If you enjoy both, that's great.
But refusing to understand why the other side is arguing so hard for their side (PvPers trying to keep the game the way it is and PvErs trying so hard to make a place for them to belong) is devaluing the community as a whole.Everyone keeps complaining about being sick of the arguments that have been going on since Alpha/Beta. But rather than trying to work together and trying to find a solution that would make everyone happy, they just argue about what their side is right and the other is wrong.
Honestly, at this point, I feel more like a mediator (or a nanny, depending on how you look at it) just trying to get both sides to sit down and talk, rather than just yell at each other without listening to the other side.
PvPers: The reason there have been arguments for years is that PvErs love this game, they just want to have the right to play the game their way.
PvErs: The reason PvPers are so adamant against PvE only in this game they love so much, is that they are worried their gameplay and experience might suffer from the separation.Community as a whole: Rather than say "This is how it WILL work" or "This is how it MUST work", why not just bring up ideas of how the system can be changed and have the other side try to explain why it wouldn't. Then, rather than throwing the idea out entirely, work together to find solutions to any problems that arise.
Everyone can have their cake and eat it too. :)
@photonjeff said in A logical argument for PvE...:
Honestly, that seems like a slap in the face to PvErs. It's like saying "You can demo the game, but you can't play it really".
Totally wrong. Not only can you absolutely play the game, it's actually the very way PVErs wanted it: being able to chill with all their friends, fishing, doing tales, doing skelly ships, megs etc etc etc. People will be able to do all that in custom servers.
The "you can't play it really" bit makes me laugh, since PVErs are the ones who didn't want to really play the game by begging to remove PVP from it. They got their wish. They still can earn stuff in regular servers, that's the whole point of the game.
And just because the devs say they won't add something, doesn't mean that can't change.
I think the problem is no one has come forward with an idea for a PvP / PvE split that could actually work. Rather than simply throwing the idea out entirely, why not brainstorm an idea that would make everyone happy?
Also, plenty of developers said their game wouldn't "have" something and then changed their mind later (even years down the line). Why should an exception be made for this game?
The developers said no PvE servers, and are now making PvE-lite servers. Is it really such a stretch of the imagination to think of them adding full on PvE servers one day?Yeah yeah we know, the salty lot will keep begging daily for those fabled PVE servers no matter how official of a statement the devs make, you people will never accept it. At least now the @Deckhands have a thread to redirect politely people to before dropping anchor.
Case closed, a fair alternative for peaceful people is coming, everyone can rejoice.
@photonjeff said in A logical argument for PvE...:
Honestly, at this point, I feel more like a mediator (or a nanny, depending on how you look at it) just trying to get both sides to sit down and talk
My, how kind. Nobody's ever tried that before. =P
Sure, but this game is thriving.
...and it thrives without catering to the PvE crowd.
I do not own this game.
You are like the Karen that goes into the Pizzeria and lectures them how you don't like pizza and that they should start selling chicken. They will respond in kind that they specialize in pizza, why should they stray away from what already makes their business thrive? You answer back by saying that they will make big bank by selling chicken, yet you have no clue their demographics, overhead cost, and the over all headaches that arise from deploying something like this. There is always a hidden cost that you don't see.
Why would a business gamble when they are, in your words, "Thriving?" I've worked fast food, and I got those people all the time who see themselves as these business experts thinking they are onto some hidden secret to a businesses success. Meanwhile, they aren't beholden to anything and there ideas are worthless. Had their ideas been worth something, they probably wouldn't be giving them to a cashier at Dairy Queen.
Rare is a large company, they even have big daddy Microsoft backing them. They have people who are paid exorbitant amounts of money to lead companies in a profitable endeavor. If they wanted PvE servers they will do it, til then, lets stop pretending like we know better than Rare. Ok?
@photonjeff said in A logical argument for PvE...:
You know, having made this thread both here and on the official forums, I have to say I'm fascinated.
I believe someone here said it best:
"For every post that's salty asking for PvE, there's at least 2 more with as much salt in telling PvE'ers to shove off. People are so entrenched in their positions it's a bit depressing."
And I think it really speaks volumes.And it really isn't true either. Big majority of those pro-PVE threads were started by new players who haven't found their sea legs yet, and maybe barely every 10 threads or so repeating the same misguided complaints were met by one created out of exasperation over people refusing to abide to the forum rules of thread duplication and simple search of existing topics.
Everyone has their own opinion about what is fun in this game. Some people love the PvP aspect. Some people love the PvE aspect. Some love the mix of both.
It's impossible to say "This game NEEDS PvP to function" and state it as fact, considering how many people avoid PvP and are enjoying the game. Saying that is an opinion, not a fact.It's not only a fact, but the very vision of the devs as well, now confirmed by this annoucement. It's not only the playerbase, but the game creator who openly say that the game was made to have both, and requires both.
If you enjoy PvP, then that's fine. If you enjoy PvE, that's also fine. If you enjoy both, that's great.
But refusing to understand why the other side is arguing so hard for their side (PvPers trying to keep the game the way it is and PvErs trying so hard to make a place for them to belong) is devaluing the community as a whole.Everyone keeps complaining about being sick of the arguments that have been going on since Alpha/Beta. But rather than trying to work together and trying to find a solution that would make everyone happy, they just argue about what their side is right and the other is wrong.
Arguments and solutions have been given ad nauseum already, nothing of value has been added for years. The devs finally decided to execute a solution that will make everyone happy, in the most fair and reasonable way, so that's mission accomplished. No need to dwell on which side was right or wrong, the decision has been made and speak for itself.
Honestly, at this point, I feel more like a mediator (or a nanny, depending on how you look at it) just trying to get both sides to sit down and talk, rather than just yell at each other without listening to the other side.
How delightfully condescending. You should feel more like the child trying to bargain with the nanny for her to overturn a perfectly reasonable decision/rule she took/made.
PvPers: The reason there have been arguments for years is that PvErs love this game, they just want to have the right to play the game their way.
PvErs: The reason PvPers are so adamant against PvE only in this game they love so much, is that they are worried their gameplay and experience might suffer from the separation.Community as a whole: Rather than say "This is how it WILL work" or "This is how it MUST work", why not just bring up ideas of how the system can be changed and have the other side try to explain why it wouldn't. Then, rather than throwing the idea out entirely, work together to find solutions to any problems that arise.
Everyone can have their cake and eat it too. :)
Except at this point it's been dead horse beating for literally years. All the arguments, suggestions, propositions have been said over and over again.
Turns out, the only reasonable and fair solution that had been suggested over and over by one side, while being shut down over and over by the other, is the one that is finally seeing light of day.
This is the best scenario for everyone. Everyone will have to accept compromises.
@photonjeff Well how nice of you to come to a forum of a game you do not own and never even played to volunteer your mediation services.
Guess you will just ignore my post that clearly points out you have no idea what you are talking about.
@nabberwar Haha that entire post, thank you, made me laugh so true.
Did you work at Dairy Queen and if so do you get free ice cream? I know weird question, humor me.
Did you work at Dairy Queen and if so do you get free ice cream? I know weird question, humor me.
Yes, I worked at a Dairy Queen. The benefits included half off on products, sometimes you could keep a mistake, but they tried to discourage that to avoid people intentionally making mistakes. You also would reach a point of simply not wanting ice cream mainly out of getting sick of it. I could pretty much say the same for popcorn while I was a projectionist at a movie theater.
@photonjeff If you do not play the game it wont be easy for you to understand the logic and the balance of the game.
If she rages quit everytime she is being bested by better players then maybe she should take a break from the game, what you are saying is like asking Dark Souls to be easy for those who "hates losing" that will ruin the balance and the economy of the game because the only obstacle are players.
Just because players claim they want things to be easier does not mean they will like it, ruining the balance will just increase PvP and most of all WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT SALTY PLAYERS?!
If she cant lose and laugh it off then i recommend her to pick a diffrent game or maybe to accept it, drink water take a walk and move on.@nabberwar said in A logical argument for PvE...:
I could pretty much say the same for popcorn while I was a projectionist at a movie theater.
My younger brother has the same thing. He's worked at Cinemark for years and has zero desire for popcorn.
I worked at the campus theater for a couple years, and while I didn't lose my taste for popcorn, I can no longer smell movie theater popcorn without associating it with the smell of Windex, which we used to clean out the machine.
Honestly, you are all correct. I have never played this game. I do not know the mechanics as you guys do. I do not know what needs to be fixed or changed.
But this isn't about the game at all. This is about a clear divide in a community. It's about a vocal group of players who have been trying to get the game changed in a way that would let everyone be happy.
The fact that I have never played and it's that obvious to me should be an indicator of how bad it truly is.
Simply plugging your ears and pretending like the group that want PvE won't make them go away, it will simply make them more vocal. That's the reason this argument has been going on for years. Because there is a group of people who love the game, they just want one thing to change. And then there's the other side who don't, simply because it's the way the game was originally envisioned.
They are adding PvE-like servers. That's a great first step. But as pointed out by this article:
Amongst many others: It's the first step. It's not a final solution. It shows that the devs really DO care about trying to make the PvErs happy but just are trying to figure out a way to do it without upsetting the PvPers, which is admirable.Sea of Thieves is getting paid custom servers, but there'll be no PvE progression
Custom servers are coming to Sea of Thieves, but don't expect them to fill your PvE needs
I don't have to play the game to see what the problem with the community is. Rather than telling the other side they are wrong, why not try to understand them and find a middle ground that makes both sides happy?
This isn't just a jab at the PvPers either. The PvErs are just as bad. Yelling at the PvPers that "How dare you tell me how to play the game I want" or "You love ganking new players, so you are terrible people".
I don't play this game, but I want to. I have seen a lot of PvE and it looks like a lot of fun. But I have also seen many of my friends get angry at the PvP aspect of the game.
There is a group of players that would jump on this game is it had true PvE mode. There's always a way to make everyone happy. You just have to be willing to try to find it.
Also, about the remarks about me being a mediator being insulting, if you go back through this very thread, you will understand why I said that.
I came to this forum to try to provide my input as to why I have not bought the game and to try to find a way to allow myself (amongst others) to be able to buy a game they would love, if not for one part of the game they do not like.
Also, about the new PvE servers, allow me to try to explain why the PvErs are upset:
Imagine for a moment, the Devs one day came forward and said: "You no longer will gain gold/rep/progress from PvP, but you can still do it."That is essentially what the Devs did with the private PvE servers. A good first step, but it's not the final solution to the problem.
@photonjeff said in A logical argument for PvE...:
Imagine for a moment, the Devs one day came forward and said: "You no longer will gain gold/rep/progress from PvP, but you can still do it."
They are not removing anything from anyone. They are providing (generously) a separate custom private experience, followed by the compromise of having no progression within it, to encourage people to still play in the shared world which is the core of the game.
Your "voice of reason" attitude is nice and all, but to be blunt you simply prove with each post how your lack of direct contact and experience with the game prevents you to truly understand the balance that resides with both PVE and PVP aspects of the game, outside of mere surface observations and biased testimonies.
It's not a black and white thing, it's not a matter of PVP players and PVE players, it's a matter of players who do both and want to keep an unpredictable and rich experience, while another group who insists on wanting to remove themselves from the main game, which would remove a lot of potential encounters and experiences.
So no, just adding PVE will not make everyone happy, yes, it will remove things from others. Custom servers without progression is the best compromise who gives a bit to some, while not removing too much to others.
It's a great first step, and the next one is for players to take, and to get to practice and learn the game with that mode and be able to move on within the real game.
But this isn't about the game at all.
Oh but it is, otherwise no one would be here. Its also about a game that you haven't played, might be rather rude of me to say, but I don't think you get to have a valid opinion on something you don't financially support.
This is about a clear divide in a community.
Ah yes, the community you describe as a
... (vocal) minority.
So at the most this divide is a chipped corner of the sidewalk.
The fact that I have never played and it's that obvious to me should be an indicator of how bad it truly is.
The fact that you don't play means, to put it rather bluntly, diddly squat. I don't play a lot of games, because they simple do suit me or they don't keep my interest. What you won't see me doing is going to the forums campaigning for a giant massive finacial investment for the off chance it might attract people that isn't my demographic.
Simply plugging your ears and pretending like the group that want PvE won't make them go away, it will simply make them more vocal. That's the reason this argument has been going on for years.
Children cry over candy, some will scream even louder when you tell them no. That doesn't mean their crocodile tears are in anyway valid.
Because there is a group of people who love the game, they just want one thing to change. And then there's the other side who don't, simply because it's the way the game was originally envisioned.
Love the game so much that they don't even play it or financially support it? Enlighten me, who should a company invest in especially when it comes to sales and potential people who will buy their cosmetics? The original demographic that loves the game and has been playing since the begining, you know the people who actually bought the game. Or the people who buy it and quit the moment someone steals their castaway.
I will make a bold statement here, the purely PvE crowd are not worth investing in. PvP people are quite easy to please some might even say simple minded. Give them a boat and some cannonballs and they will have a blast destroying each other over and over again. Spice it up by giving them something to fight over and they will be there for hours. The PvE crowd? Not so much. You need to invest in new enemy types, story making, visuals, all for someone to play that content for a little bit then get bored and demand for more. Why do you think competitive multiplayer is so popular?
All of this is reinforced here by your presence alone, the person who hasn't even bother actually playing the game, yet here you are demanding more.
@combatxkitty said in A logical argument for PvE...:
@conal-cuan I will be honest, I stopped reading at "I do not own the game". I do not see how and anyone can make a logical argument to change the game when they do not even own it.I also do not understand why someone would come on a forum of a game they do not even own and tell us people who actually play it why the game needs to be changed.
A thousand times this.
You people refuse to listen. Sea of Thieves will never have PvE servers. Never. PvP is an integral part of the game. Literally every part of the game is balanced to include the threat of other players. If you take out the PvP, the game will not be balanced. If you take out the PvP, you'd also need to take out the whole Emissary system, forts, fleets, Reaper's chests, etc. If you're going to do all that, you might as well take out skeletons, too. What you're proposing is removing the main challenge of the game. Even Tall Tales are designed to be done in the presence of other crews. The unpredictable human element is integral to the game.
This is not an argument only made by PvP people who go around hunting other ships. I'm certainly not kind of pirate (usually). I'm not great at PvP. 90% of the time I go for the PvE. But you can't remove the PvP element. It's a crucial part of the game.
Imagine if you provide free PvE servers for anybody who wants them. All the "casual" PvE people will be on those servers. For those of us (and I believe we are the majority) who love the game the way it is, PvEvP, we'll be stuck playing with ALL PvPers. The game will just suck for everyone. You can't divide the player base like that. For Sea of Thieves to work, it needs a variety of players with their own playing styles, all sailing the seas together.
Stop asking for PvE-only servers. It's never going to happen. Rare made that perfectly clear with their latest announcement. Never. Happen.
@photonjeff Lol you literally pointed out the nail in the coffin for pve servers. Custom servers will have no gold, no reputation, and no commendation credit.
And you clearly have no idea about this game or community, what you think you understand you do not. You have heard the delusional rantings from a friend that are filled with the salt of loss.
Go bother a forum for a game you play and care about. For those of us here we dont want separate waste dev time and effort making a safe place for people to grind out anything. Cant take the salt, get out.
The only type of PVE mode I would accept is a story mode, other than that I will have to go with no, especially since its been clarified that there will not be PVE servers.
Also bit extreme of me, but I think the forums should be exclusive to those who actually own the game on either Xbox, Steam, etc.
Don't have the game, can't login to the forums.
Sea of Thieves is getting paid custom servers, but there'll be no PvE progression
