@athena-fortune5 Que? We have to wait to express an opinion on the current implementation of a feature? For why? The whole point is to indicate what we believe to be flaws because we believe it can be improved - it's feedback & suggestions.
Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game
@entspeak I see the issue but there is just zero solution to the problem. players don't want to have their stuff stolen and as little risk as possible. Reaper's Bones is just PvE with some PvP sprinkled in, and it's the players fault for creating that loop.
To what problem? If people want as little risk as possible, they will never become an Emissary (or shouldn't whine when they're targeted as an Emissary). There's no problem there. Rare isn't forcing people to be Emissaries.
Reaper's Bones will be what it will be. It's not intended to be PvE with some PvP sprinkled in - it's why they nerfed loot.
@entspeak And that's the problem. If no one will become emissaries you can't progress in Reaper's that easily. And that's the fault of the player base and Rare for designing something that relies on unreliable players.
@baronbrr said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
@entspeak And that's the problem. If no one will become emissaries you can't progress in Reaper's that easily. And that's the fault of the player base and Rare for designing something that relies on unreliable players.
The problem is that they designed a system where you can determine if you want to take the risk before you leave the outpost the first time and any time you look at the map.
More people may be inclined to take the risk if they had no idea of how many Reapers were on that server, and certainly if they didn’t know one was on the server that would know their exact location the moment they voted to be an Emissary.
Prior to this update, there was always the risk of being attacked... but people sailed the seas anyway - though people will complain about being attacked (that will never change). The Emissary system should be a leap off the cliff into the unknown for all players for that high reward. I believe more people would do it if there were no ship tables/GPS system. It’s a psychological thing. You’re more likely to take a risk the greater the feeling that the risk will pay off.
If you’re on a boat, you might still jump in the water even if there’s a chance sharks might be around, but you’re less likely to jump in if you know there are sharks, and exactly where they are - especially if they will know exactly where you are the moment you’re in the water.
The current implementation of Emissaries fails to take this truism into account.
@baronbrr said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
@entspeak I see the issue but there is just zero solution to the problem. players don't want to have their stuff stolen and as little risk as possible. Reaper's Bones is just PvE with some PvP sprinkled in, and it's the players fault for creating that loop.
The problem here, which is very solvable, is that players have a way to know if they’re on a server where they’re more likely to be robbed (seeing Reapers AND their emissary grades on the map) and they’re able to decide from the get-go if the server is suitable for their session or not.
Players are simply being given too much information about other players in the word up front, rather than setting sail and discovering the other players on their own like we’re supposed to.
It is very solvable by removing the ability to see Reapers, at least until your own Emissary grade has reached 5 or something.
@athena-fortune5 said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
@Chronodusk I don't agree with your point of view but I don't think you can go raging and writing us essays why this feature is bad. The whole point of this forum is so that Rare can help develop the game and it's a bit early with this particular feature to only point out it's mistakes.
Show me where I “raged” please. I gave my feedback, perhaps in an annoyed sounding manner, but it was far from raging.
I wrote the post because I want the feature to be great. I didn’t write it because I just enjoy making a fuss about thing. I’m using the Feedback and Suggestions category exactly how it was intended - to give my feedback about the features, and to suggest improvements.
I did say that the feature has great potential. I’ll gladly say that the idea of hunting other ships to gain progression from their emissary flag is a really fun idea, but my bland, dead sessions tell me that the idea isn’t being executed very well and something about it isn’t working.
Not sure why you came to bash me for giving constructive feedback.
Yes. I'm saying get rid of the GPS system for all Emissaries regardless of Grade. The game shouldn't get easier the higher your Grade. Your reward for reaching Grade V should be the multiplier, not a GPS system.
@entspeak said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
@chronodusk Well, I don’t even think Reaper V should be visible on the map. Nobody should be visible on the map (unless you put up the red skull Reaper flag).
I agree.
Still feel like there should be some sort of indicator, just not on the map or emissary board, and not always visible.
Meaning, logging in and looking around the outpost isn't enough to determine if things are safe or not.@entspeak said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
Yes. I'm saying get rid of the GPS system for all Emissaries regardless of Grade. The game shouldn't get easier the higher your Grade. Your reward for reaching Grade V should be the multiplier, not a GPS system.
Me and one of my crew mates were talking last night... instead of having all of this map indicator nonsense that we have, you could get a cryptic and ominous message on your screen while playing as an Emissary that tells you in the form of a Rhyme that there is a Reaper nearby.
It would pop up like a server merge without freezing all movement, and the screen turns to a red hue for a moment with this red riddle writing and the Reapers Bones mask symbol.
Would be so much cooler...
Still feel like there should be some sort of indicator, just not on the map or emissary board, and not always visible.
Why?
I too feel like the "hunt" mechanism is currently upside down.
The reapers should definitely be hidden on the map and on the emissary tables (I'd get rid of those altogether). A mechanic should also be in place to direct reapers of all levels to other emissaries without giving away the exact position. I think knowing how many emissaries in total are in each region (plenty, wilds etc) would be enough. That way they have a guaranteed hunting ground, but the prey emissaries still have a chance to sneak away unnoticed.There should also be the chance to start multiple level V voyages (as long as you keep being LevelV) to keep those flags up longer.
@entspeak said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
@chronodusk Or... and this is crazy, I know... you could look around... maybe use the spyglass.
And that works too!
I'd be perfectly fine with the map table indicators all going away but I think that a Grade 5 reaper should get some other bonus since they don't get the chance to do a special voyage.
Is changing the bonus percentage for the Reaper's Bones faction only, to increase the multiplier at higher grades, a good compromise? Should they get some other bonus? Maybe they should get voyages of some kind?
@accatitippi said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
I too feel like the "hunt" mechanism is currently upside down.
The reapers should definitely be hidden on the map and on the emissary tables (I'd get rid of those altogether). A mechanic should also be in place to direct reapers of all levels to other emissaries without giving away the exact position. I think knowing how many emissaries in total are in each region (plenty, wilds etc) would be enough. That way they have a guaranteed hunting ground, but the prey emissaries still have a chance to sneak away unnoticed.There should also be the chance to start multiple level V voyages (as long as you keep being LevelV) to keep those flags up longer.
I agree with removing the Reaper's Mark's on RBE ships, but not with your last point regarding additional bonus emmisary voyages - requiring them to lower their flag and collect more loot before they can do another allows for 2 things:
- It allows for them to turn in more loot at the end of the day, as well as for other ships to collect more loot after a successful attack.
- It ensures that whether you're attacking an E1 or an E5, that you're still likely to get a lot of loot, because the E1 might be on their 2nd orr 3rd rotation.
@galactic-geek
I'm not sure about #1, but if I understand you correctly, #2 seems wrong: assuming people will sell before lowering the flag and restarting the cycle, they won't have any loot as E1.But I do see what you mean about Emissary cycling pushing players to keep loot on the ship longer.
@accatitippi You can have a lot of loot as an E1 - I have had numerous skulls on board from skeleton captains, ashen guardians, and ashen key masters on board as a MAE - I didn't want to sell them until I was done with the MAE flag; that way I could sell them at a higher profit margin with a lvl. 1 OoSE flag.
I had a huge rant typed up about how everything is designed to work against the Reapers. But really, I can just boil it down to this.
The Reaper's Emissaries should NOT be able to be seen from a minimap or even on the emissary table. Period. I'm stating this as someone who isn't even primarily concerned with PvP all the time, though it can occasionally be fun. It's literally not a balanced mechanic for those trying to use it to be visible to everyone and only be able to see people under very specific circumstances at the very end of your leveling.
All it does is allow people running emissary to bail out before the Reaper hits level 5. In fact, the only chance a Level 5 Reaper has for finding an emissary to attack is spawning practically on top of one in a server migration.
On top of the fact that almost no one does emissaries outside of the alliance servers that currently plague the game, Reaper players are almost never gonna find anyone worthwhile to attack. There aren't enough ships in a server to have the chance to find one with loot at any given time, and no one is going to have those extremely valuable flags because no one is doing them outside of alliance servers.
The Reaper's Bones is basically the Bilge Rats, Gold Hoarders, and Order of Souls all tied into one. It's just a PvE faction that doesn't actually give you any quests to do PvE or go hunting for chests. You basically just do forts, fishing, or side quests you pick up from barrels or bottles and maybe, just maybe you'll stumble across someone that's carrying a few skulls and a chest or two for you to steal.
As @Chronodusk stated above. Being able to see what is going on in terms of player numbers is working to the detriment of the emissary system as a whole, on top of the fact that, for PvP, player numbers per server may simply not be high enough to use it as a dedicated source of reputation and income, which is a problem since that seems to be the intention behind the Reaper's Bones in the first place if a level 3 flag from another ship will net you over 15,000 gold.
The idea is good, but it's so unbalanced that there's no reason to do it. You're better off just running any of the other emissaries if you need gold, and if you need rep you're basically forced to do skellie ships and forts because you're unlikely to find any players to sink for the rep their loot will give, if they have any to begin with. And finally, alliance servers are ensuring that a large number of emissaries are almost completely inaccessible to Reapers or even anyone in general. Those will have to be completely and utterly removed if the Reaper's Bones are even going to start working in the most basic sense as a viable company to run a flag for.
From one huge rant to another.
As a relatively new player, this is still a huge problem, in large part because, as others have said many times, you just can't find other emissarys in this game.
My personal solution would be to give other players in the server some kind of payout multiplier for each reaper in the server and their grade. Make it so that players actively seek out reapers rather than changing servers the second they see one. Then, give reapers rep for each shop killed, regardless of whether they're flying a emissary flag. Finding an enemy ship to fight is hard enough. Finding an enemy emissafy as a reaper is basically impossible.
@jadedragon00 said in Reaper's Bones is Going To Fail As a Feature in This Game:
So, this patch definitely nerfed Reapers hard into the ground. Of that, there is no question.
I can certainly attest to your frustration however. I will fully acknowledge that if I join a server hoping to grind out an Emissary, I check right away if there is a reaper, and if its Grade V, I leave. Plain and simple. I have no desire to Solo Sloop (or if with a Crew that does not want to engage in PVP - which I remind you is not required) a server grind where I might get sunk and ostensibly obtain Zero progress in my emissary (or just progress with Rep/Gold/Commendations etc etc). But that is the point right? Progress.
Let me be clear, I am not going to argue the merits of "its a Pirate Game" or "PvP is part of it" or even "The fun is the Risk". They are subjective to each player and RARE has been quite clear they are trying to balance the broad player-base. The game is what it is, but that does not mean its not without flaws or frustrations. That being said, people do not enjoy sinking when there is ZERO progress. I would even go so far as to say that if there WAS some form of retained progress, even when sunk, that being sunk would not be as big a deal as it currently is and you would not see as many people avoiding PVP, or doing alliance servers, or even server hopping to avoid Reapers as we do now. (Its all conjecture of course but its my perspective)
Imagine this (Hypothetical scenario): A player decided to join a server and grind out OoS Emissary. They spend say 1 hour grinding it to G-5 only to then be sunk by a Reaper. Outside of OoS mileage, potential commendations unrelated to turn-ins, they get NOTHING upon being sunk. No Gold, No Rep, No progress. That hour is WASTED. Plain and Simple.
Now lets imagine that same OoS player stays on the server to try again, only now the Reaper is Grade V, and they can see every place they go. They cannot hide, cannot properly grind up because they are being attacked over and over and over again. Now their skill in PvP not withstanding, they keep sinking, and thus losing progress. (Maybe they even try to fight back and give it a good go, but still lose) Its a Turn off to continuously work with no payout or progress. The Risk (over time) becomes too great for the Reward, more so from a Time investment. The Result?: They leave the server, they have the learned behavior of leaving when they see a reaper, or turning in loot sooner, and thus ignoring the entire reason Emissaries were added in the first place (which was to help encourage retaining loot).
Now the other side. That Reaper player is NOT doing anything wrong. They are just playing the game exactly as its supposed to be. Only now because they are being hyper aggressive (which is part of the playstyle) to every player they see, especially emissaries. They gain the progress, but as a result, they DENY progress to everyone else. Its not malicious, but even if by design, over time its a turn off. The result?: They end up in empty servers, with lower player counts, or if players are in the server, them being a reaper causes everyone else to refuse to be an Emissary.
Now we get to the issue at hand; Reapers not being able to progress due to the nerf.
I stand by the nerf is way to much. While I agree that as a PVP faction, PVP should be the primary way to level up "Quickly", there should always be a fall back in the event that PVP is just not available; be it from Forts/Fleets/ Regular Voyages.
I am torn on the suggestion over adding a way to gain rep by sinking "Non-Emissary" ships, but I do see merit in it. Still I think perhaps loot value should just go back to where it was pre-patch instead of essentially adding additional punishment to players whom you your self already acknowledged might not be emissaries because they don't understand it. (Again not everyone has to be an Emissary, but not everyone knows how to be an Emissary - so I agree that more in-game tutorials should be added)
While I do like the idea of not showing the Reaper Emissary Rank, I think it would be fruitless. People already leave servers when they see a Reaper regardless of Rank - Grade 5 just seems to be the cut off of whether they grind for a bit BEFORE leaving. Even before, I can still attest that when you see a player with a Standard Reaper flag, players who don't want PVP tend to avoid them or leave the server. (Not saying its right, but that is the behavior that is exhibited)
Overall, my main issue is that they created a Faction that while I understand was meant to encourage PVP and loot retention, the issue with people not engaging in PVP was not because (at least not outright) they hate PVP or because they were not skilled enough; it is because there is no RETAINED PROGRESS. In my opinion, on paper, the idea of an "All in - constant At Risk" game is great. On paper. But in practice I think its more flawed than even RARE is willing to acknowledge.
This is Not Rust, or Ark. (Games built with a Hardcore mindset from the ground up) This is a game made by Rare, advertised and given access to an overall, younger or more causal audience. Not a bad thing, but it is what it is.
If I could make a change, I would revert the most recent Patch. It nerfed Reapers to the ground, and makes them less viable when PVP is not present. While not the "right way" I still stand by that Reapers should be able to progress the same way as any other faction. Instead of being punished for PVP not being available, they should instead get BONUS's when it is found. (Be it double rep/gold etc etc, when getting stuff from PVP - while regular stuff is just standard. Instead they just nerfed the standard and did nothing for the bonus)
Heck even as a byproduct of this update, other Factions are now even more of a grind which based on the responses to the Dev poste that was just made, is clearly not what players want. Grind does not equal Fun. (Depending on how its implemented at least).
The final thing I will say (apologies for the long post but its a big issue) is that PVP is NOT a requirement for this game, and it should NOT be forced. It should be something that occurs organically, perhaps encouraged from time to time, but NOT a requirement, and I stand by that alongside the Reapers Bones. I do agree that PVP should be the key method of progress, The Reapers should not be punished, simply because other players do NOT want PVP. They NEED a fall back method. This patch destroyed your fall back.
To Rare: This patch should be reverted, or re-assessed with that in mind. (PErsonally I say you should have just doubled down on Arena and the Sea Dogs for PVP, but hey that's a WHOLE separate discussion.
This is a GREAT post, thanks for writing it up.
A few notes I wanted to add -
I know you did not suggest it, you only mentioned it as others have, but I would definitely NOT encourage adding progression for taking down non-emissary ships. This will just lead to kill trading for false progression.
Also I agree about the identity crisis this game has. Rare wants this to be a PVE game with PVP aspects - otherwise why would they keep adding such high level PVE content? The latest events pretty much are impossible to complete by solo players, and extremely difficult or nearly undoable by duo players. And if a solo/duo player even tries them, they get jacked by a larger crew anyways.
So they keep introducing PVE content that a large portion of the playerbase has no real chance of completing. Not to mention, a lot of people only get an hour or two to play at any given time, it's just not going to happen.
PVP players should not be surprised when PVE players simply avoid them, or log out of the server when they see a reaper.
Your point about progression is key. Give the PVE'ers some guaranteed progression for their work so that if they spend X hours working on an emissary and then get sunk, they don't just lose their time and get nothing. It's possible that might help with the complete avoidance issue.
Hello @Vartan @EverestLynx
Bumping Threads
Resurrecting threads over one month old is not permitted.Make sure we aren't bumping threads over a month old, as it is against forum rules.
Regards
87 out of 93
