1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're

@surveyorpete said in 1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're:

Progression: noun
the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

So often we read that "there is no progression in Sea of Thieves"; by which the critic means that the game does not make itself easier for someone that has played a long time, and earned lots of gold and reputation. They cannot run faster, jump higher, take more damage, nor do they get more powerful, or more accurate, weapons.

But, think about it. No real world games offer this sort of "progression". If you are a chess Grand Master, you do not get extra pawns, or 3 lives for your Queen, or a knight's move for your King. If you are a Wimbledon champion, the net is not lower, or the opponents side of the court bigger, nor are you allowed two faults at service instead of one.

In the real world, any "progression" is in yourself. It is in your improved skill, your greater dexterity, your knowledge of strategy and tactics. Chess GMs and Wimbledon champions are better players. They are not assisted by changing game mechanics.

So it is with the Sea of Thieves. A true Pirate Legend knows the map by heart, and the islands by sight, he knows the techniques to defeat different types of emergent threats, and the various tactics available for PvP. He knows when to stand and fight, when to run, and when to try to negotiate. He has progressed in his skill at the game – not because the game artificially rewards the time spent playing.

I refuse to believe anyone genuinely thinks they got a game worth the asking price.

I think that: Whether you believe it or not.

This game is conceptually flawed, and I can prove it mathematically

No, you didn't.

Agreed. All this told me is that you’re butthurt that other people steal your gold, and your idea of progression is completely off for a pirate game. The combat isn’t “clunky” as you suggest.. if you’re good at it it comes very fluidly. Stop speaking for everyone. You can only speak for yourself.

Stop making pointless rants about the game

@surveyorpete said in 1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're:

Progression: noun
the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

So often we read that "there is no progression in Sea of Thieves"; by which the critic means that the game does not make itself easier for someone that has played a long time, and earned lots of gold and reputation. They cannot run faster, jump higher, take more damage, nor do they get more powerful, or more accurate, weapons.

But, think about it. No real world games offer this sort of "progression". If you are a chess Grand Master, you do not get extra pawns, or 3 lives for your Queen, or a knight's move for your King. If you are a Wimbledon champion, the net is not lower, or the opponents side of the court bigger, nor are you allowed two faults at service instead of one.

In the real world, any "progression" is in yourself. It is in your improved skill, your greater dexterity, your knowledge of strategy and tactics. Chess GMs and Wimbledon champions are better players. They are not assisted by changing game mechanics.

So it is with the Sea of Thieves. A true Pirate Legend knows the map by heart, and the islands by sight, he knows the techniques to defeat different types of emergent threats, and the various tactics available for PvP. He knows when to stand and fight, when to run, and when to try to negotiate. He has progressed in his skill at the game – not because the game artificially rewards the time spent playing.

I refuse to believe anyone genuinely thinks they got a game worth the asking price.

I think that: Whether you believe it or not.

This game is conceptually flawed, and I can prove it mathematically

No, you didn't.

The game does lack motivating goals. Gold doesn't buy anything impressive. Winning fights doesn't give enough satisfaction because they decided to use the "generated world" server system, so your name doesn't have weight within the game world for its deeds. You leave and reload and those players disappear most likely forever.

Wimbledon winners get money, prestige and social status gains from it. Feelings of accomplishment for monumentally difficult challenges. Historical significance as a winner of such a challenge.

This games has no real difficult challenges it asks of you, there's no social status because the world resets. The monetary rewards are meaningless because there is not enough to buy.

Basically we need:
#1: Quests that are difficult to complete. Interestingly different from the regular "training" wheel voyages.
#2: Gold needs to buy something truly interesting or valuable. Power items are possible but open pandora's box.
3#: Competition ladders to climb for prestige within the community.

@ctl-x-alt-x-del

You strike me as a person who associates fun with reward in an inseparable way. I get the feeling you can't have fun or enjoy a game without the prospect of an end goal accomplishment. I used to be like this. I used to download terrible PS3 and Steam games for easy achievements and consider that fun but eventually I learned to separate the reward from the experience. I'm not suggesting you do the same but it sounds like a similar mind set.

Sea of Thieves isn't about developing a character or improving your arsenal or reputation. You could argue it's about making a profit but I'd say even that isn't the core appeal of the game. I've bought almost all the cosmetics I'll ever use, have no need for gold at this point but that hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of the game. I play because quite simply I think the content on offer is worth doing without incentive because it's fun.

But you say that the content is not fun? If you think that I can't fault you, it took me a long time to warm up to the game and ultimately it might just not be your thing. I won't even pretend the games not flawed. I hate how I have to sink a ship 3 times at a fort, that 95% of the ships I sink don't have good loot aboard and merchant quests are still the worst of the 3 by far.

But Conceptually Flawed? Most certainly not.

This is the first, and probably biggest flaw in the games design. Pirates don’t pirate other pirates. This game rewards you for being a [censored]. What’s the easiest way to get gold and gain rep? Let someone else do the work, then just take it. You get everything, and they get literally nothing other than a bad experience.

To me this quote says that you have a different idea of Sea of Thieves' concept and disagree with Rare's vision which is all fine and good but I don't think that makes it a bad game. If you couldn't pirate other players then the game would be truly lacking in a major way. If there's no progression then you really lose nothing by being sank by other players using your logic but honestly I do understand that it can be painful to feel like you've lost time. But that's the name of the game and you can mitigate losing lots of time by visiting outposts often and taking less risks for a lower payout. Doing voyages yourself is actually more profitable than waiting around for ships to sink in the long run as well.

The combat is heavy, sticky, and really just unsatisfying in every way.

The combat may not be the most fluid but it's surprisingly deep with a lot of extra tricks that you may not know about at first. The lunge and side hop can make PvP against a level opponent very tense and a real test of skill

How much more advanced are you at 40 hours of play time, than you are at 4? You certainly look snazzy with your gold eye-patch and pearl cannons. Has anything changed though, or are you still doing the exact same things.

All gold let’s you do is search for more gold, so nothing to work towards.

Again this progression thing seems to be your main driving point but it's just not at the center of the experience. There's no rush, there's plenty of ways to make gold now and gold's not even the most rewarding part of the game. Rather it's the stories you leave with in my opinion.

Me and my friends like to joke about by throwing loot overboard as a sacrifice to the gods for better luck on our voyages. That's not at all a mechanic of the game but we do it because it's funny and it adds to our storytelling experience.

Try playing without progression in mind, without thinking about gold. Try getting as much loot on board and decorate your ship with it because it looks appealing rather than because you look forward to turning it in. Or just sail casually and chat with your friends. Our ship is like a hangout spot for me and my crew who live far away from me. It's a chance to relax and chat and maybe get an interesting story out of it on the way.

Then when those tense moments do come up and you have to focus and try your hardest it'll be that much more engaging and meaningful. It'll also feel more rewarding when you do complete those tasks. But don't do those tasks because there's a reward at the end.

It's about the journey not the destination

Stick with it a little longer and it might all come together and become an enjoyable game. It might just not be your thing and that's fine but don't blame the game for your inability to enjoy what it offers.

... And don't be so cocky it doesn't make you look smart

@ctl-x-alt-x-del

I agree with a few things you said, but disagree with most of what you said.

We agree on the ship being very cool, and that the melee combat could use Some work, but where you completely lost me is progression; you can leave that in World of Warcraft. Progression of a character power is a bad thing in most games excluding MMORPG / RPG's.

However Sea of Thieves is not an MMORPG, or an RPG in that sense and needs none of those horrible things injected to ruin it.

If you want that, then play a game that already has that where you can't get murdered and robbed. In other words this is a you need to play better issues, not a game broken issue.

@ctl-x-alt-x-del sagte in 1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're:

This game is conceptually flawed, and I can prove it mathematically

Neither can you, nor do you.
I understand that you do not understand the game and do not like it. You could leave it at that. Instead, you try to explain to those who like the game that it' s so bad? Just play another game.

@Ctl-x-Alt-x-Del

• That title was probably meant to be clever, but there is a reason that is not used in normal language. It is not grammatically correct.
• "This game is conceptually flawed, and I can prove it mathematically" That isn't possible no matter what sense you put it in. You can't just apply math to an idea.
• "The quest: still grindy
  The combat: still clunky
  The progression: still nothing"
  The quest system has to be 'grindy'. If you could complete the game's PvE in 30 minutes why add it at all? It gives a long term goal for those who want to play the PvE part of the game.
• "But at least you can redo your tattoos, so no need for a proper character creator." They don't want everybody to look the same, so it is randomly generated. You can still choose out of a near infinite amount of options.
• You and your friend Kyle must have similar interests (makes sense, that's how friendships tend to work). So you don't like the game, maybe because you just don't like some of the community, or, maybe because you also didn't play it the way it was meant to be played. You specifically described using your time as doing one stronghold (sure, it went south quickly but there's plenty more of them to do that won't) and "just doing treasure hunting". You aren't meant to grind and only grind. You are meant to enjoy the journey, have fun with your friends, meet new people, and leave with fond memories of the good times you have had. You don't have to remember the bad ones (and because of the way the human brain works, you won't). Take that stronghold as an example. You had some fun, and it was spoiled after by some other person. You could remember the fun you had, but you choose to focus on the negative side of it.
• Ships don't spawn 2 islands away. They used to, but they don't anymore (the community already made sure of that). They can spawn at varying distances ranging from just out of sight to on the opposite corner of the map.
• "This is the first, and probably biggest flaw in the games design. Pirates don’t pirate other pirates. This game rewards you for being a [censored]. What’s the easiest way to get gold and gain rep? Let someone else do the work, then just take it. You get everything, and they get literally nothing..." So... I don't get you here. Basically, pirates don't do pirate things (like stealing from and murdering basically everyone they encounter), instead they steal your loot and kill you.
• Calling looting the 'best way to progress' is quite the stretch. If you are lucky, yes, nothing beats it. However, most of the ships sailing around have nothing on them, and especially won't have much the next time around.
• "Games should be fun to lose. I can lose a game of monopoly and still have fun playing. I can lose a round of [insert fighting game here] and still enjoy the fight." This game can be very fun to lose, although (like all games) sometimes it isn't. It especially isn't if you don't prefer the game type anyways (like how I don't much like those fighting games you described). Unless you play even less then me (and I only play a couple times a year), you have to have seen or been the person raging over a game of Monopoly. I've lost friends over Monopoly. Fun games can be entirely unfun to lose.
• Your definition of progression hurts you a lot more than it helps. Moving that number up is a more advanced state, even if the titles, commendations and entire Pirate Legend system weren't there.
• "Has anything changed though, or are you still doing the exact same things." (you didn't even put a question mark) Yes. plenty has changed. I have in-game markings or progression, such as having that higher number below my name, shown to everyone who sees me if I so desire. I have more things unlocked, more difficult missions, and more gold. All of that alongside that number, which is, again, progression in itself. I also benefit from having knowledge of the game, such as the locations, names and appearances of each island, the locations of riddle clues, the lore behind the island's cave paintings, how to maximize the distance of my sword-dash, the spawn rate of strongholds, the amount of ships I should see, where to go to avoid getting in range of the volcanoes, how to escape the megalodons and skeleton ships, the layouts of all of the ships, the companies and how to manage their quests, and so many other things.
• If the game's progression system (which you earlier almost denied existing in the first place) is so drastically simple, why did you have to simplify it more? So you could use it as an excuse to twist it to your side without feeling as guilty?
• Sure, you could say a selling point was hunting skeletons, or RPGing as a merchant (which a good amount of people do), but those weren't the point. The point was you could go and do almost anything you could imagine. If you look hard enough at the crews you see you will find people RPGing as cutthroats, or forming huge 'royal alliances', trying to land in volcanoes, holding contests of duels on the yards (the crossbeams the sails hang off of) and minigames like firing a cannonball through the rear of a sloop. People are out there, making their own fun. Just as intended. That was the catchphrase you mentioned, after all. Make your own fun.
• Sure skeletons can be frustrating. If you couldn't fight them hand to hand, why not show them the business end or a cannon? Or go find a gunpowder keg and give them an explosive surprise? You could easily get around the frustration.
• The combat is quite nice if you are used to a good at it. The sword needs a bit of a slowdown to keep pace with flintlock style firearms, and how fast could you swing a 5 foot iron bar the width of your arm?
• For one thing, there isn't going to be an 'FPS swordplay game' because as you said, the S stands for shooter and not swordplay. The reason for this, however, is because that is what the acronym was made to abbreviate. No one made an acronym and decided I should make a game for this new genre, even though it will be the only one and not even worth an acronym. Some games have better melee combat, sure. Some games have faster melee combat. But those better combat systems are all they had to work on, compared to also having to work on all of the other things in Sea of Thieves. Those faster combat systems didn't have to keep balance with a firearm that has to reload after every shot.
• Yes, the sailing is where this game shines the most. That was the point of the game. You spend most of your time out on the sea. The cannons have their issues with that and the sailing is very peaceful. At least you could still appreciate some part of this game.
• "What I described above may certainly sound like a game, but it’s not. It’s a tech demo." Sea of Thieves is essentially an early access game, but that title can't be used anymore because of the sea of unfinished games sloppily copied and posted by lazy, cheap developers.
• "Sea of Thieves is not a game. It's a sandbox." You are somewhat right. It is a sandbox, although it has to be a game to be so (you keep switching between 'it's a bad game' and 'it's not a game'). That is the point, for you to strive out and do what you want. You don't have to follow the quests at all, you can just explore the world if you want to. You can do so many things, because it's a sandbox game.
• "I paid Rare so I don’t have to make my own fun. I kinda thought they made the fun for me." Then why did you settle on a game with the literal tagline 'make your own fun'? It isn't what you wanted, you can't blame the game for that if you already knew before you got it.
• "Here’s where the math I promised earlier comes in. $60 for 20h, that’s $3/ph. 10 minutes of fun in 20 hours, that’s 19:50 wasted time. 19:50 at $3/ph comes out to $59.50 wasted. $0.50 worth of content is what I feel I’ve been given. $0.50 for 10 minutes is a gumball (a large gumball, but still a gumball)." That isn't proving it is a bad game by any means, it's proving you didn't like what you had. By the way, how did you manage to go for nearly 20 hours if you hated what you were doing? No wonder you have so much against it, you used it to torture yourself.
• "I’m not here to tell you that you don’t like this game if you do."
  "I refuse to believe anyone genuinely thinks they got a game worth the asking price."
  By your logic, (this is combined with the math part), anyone who enjoyed all or most of this game is not to be believed, if you believe the game's worth to be directly related to enjoyment while playing it.
• "I used to like this game, I still really want to. The game just makes it so difficult to enjoy. There’s no easy quick fix solution to make this game better. In fact, I think this game CAN’T get better. Its biggest flaws aren’t mechanical or anything that can just be patched or added. This game is just poorly designed as a pirate RPG." This game, as you and I have both said, isn't and RPG. It is a sandbox. That is why you don't get unfair weapon and ship upgrades, which you consider to be the 'progression' this game needs.
• "No, I don't think I'm smarterer than you're." Would have been nice to see that warning at the beginning. I would have kept in mind that you actually considered that some people might be smarterer than yourself. At least you did though, so there is that.

@scraping-static said in 1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're:

@alexspk13 said in 1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're:

@surveyorpete said in 1,402 words about why I'm smarter than you're:

Progression: noun
the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

So often we read that "there is no progression in Sea of Thieves"; by which the critic means that the game does not make itself easier for someone that has played a long time, and earned lots of gold and reputation. They cannot run faster, jump higher, take more damage, nor do they get more powerful, or more accurate, weapons.

But, think about it. No real world games offer this sort of "progression". If you are a chess Grand Master, you do not get extra pawns, or 3 lives for your Queen, or a knight's move for your King. If you are a Wimbledon champion, the net is not lower, or the opponents side of the court bigger, nor are you allowed two faults at service instead of one.

In the real world, any "progression" is in yourself. It is in your improved skill, your greater dexterity, your knowledge of strategy and tactics. Chess GMs and Wimbledon champions are better players. They are not assisted by changing game mechanics.

So it is with the Sea of Thieves. A true Pirate Legend knows the map by heart, and the islands by sight, he knows the techniques to defeat different types of emergent threats, and the various tactics available for PvP. He knows when to stand and fight, when to run, and when to try to negotiate. He has progressed in his skill at the game – not because the game artificially rewards the time spent playing.

I refuse to believe anyone genuinely thinks they got a game worth the asking price.

I think that: Whether you believe it or not.

This game is conceptually flawed, and I can prove it mathematically

No, you didn't.

Agreed. All this told me is that you’re butthurt that other people steal your gold, and your idea of progression is completely off for a pirate game. The combat isn’t “clunky” as you suggest.. if you’re good at it it comes very fluidly. Stop speaking for everyone. You can only speak for yourself.

Stop making pointless rants about the game

Chill, you’re actually butthurt. They make a donut-like ring for you to sit on that helps soothe that I’m pretty sure. Let dude say what he wants.

+1 for the combat being clunky. I don’t mind though. I’m used to it and I don’t think there’s any need for tweaking. I can live without the mlg dweebs ruining sea of thieves by going all try hard with advanced combat mechanics.

Was never butthurt.. I apologize if I came off that way. I was simply saying that he cant distinguish personal opinion and what other peoples opinions are

@ctl-x-alt-x-del If you don't like losing your treasure you can turn in often and keep one eye pointed at the sea. Unless the fog is used (which people may kill themselves doing) you should see them coming. If you don't like the grind, you don't have to focus on it. Look at basically any video on the game. People are having fun with their friends, while doing the quests in the background. You can go around until you find something you like to do, and keep doing that.

don't feed the leaving Klabautermann.