Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    Problem: Pirate game where pirates never get to open a chest and instead sell it for a small sack of gold.

    Discussion: Opening treasure chests could be a highlight moment in an evening of gaming. Instead they are merely generic quest turn in items with no functional similarity to a chest. Anything could be substituted for a fetch quest and the gameplay would be exactly the same. The design takes one of the most compelling things about treasure chests; opening them to find a horde of treasure, and turns the chest into merely a token that is turned in.

    Recommendation: Change the mechanics of the Gold Hoarders thusly;

    First, treasure chests can be opened as soon as you return to a ship and all crew click the chest while all still alive and present.

    Second, the chest opening has an animation and awards gold pieces to all players according to the rarity of the chest.

    Third, each treasure chest has at least one valuable treasure token such as jeweled vases, necklaces, rings etc... It is these items that are kept on the ship and turned into the Gold Hoarders for reputation and additional gold.

    This would have three important game experience improvements:

    1. The experience of opening a chest and getting an immediate gold reward providing a greater sense of accomplishment.

    2. Since players would get something from finding a chest the reward for their efforts is not tied entirely to one turn in token. The psychological effect is that players are more likely to hoard the valuables and push on for more chests rather than constantly return for turn-ins because the entire evening's effort no longer relies on a successful turn in. The increased hoarding would make it more likely there will be something of value on ships for other players to fight over.

    3. Players who experience being attacked by other players and losing their treasure do not have the additional negative game experience of losing the progression of an entire evening of effort since they received gold for each chest when they returned to the ship.

    Finally, I would strongly encourage Rare to consider adding a roll for cosmetic rewards on opening a chest. Say a 1% for Marauder, 2% Captain's, 3% Chest of Grogs, 4% for Sorrows, and 5% for legendary.

    This item springs from the chest opening animation and flops to the ground. Players can then fight over it or agree among themselves who should get it.

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  • Blam320
    Legend
    Insider

    The current design is fine.

  • CashmereCaptian
    Marauder
    Insider

    I really like this idea, it also adds a tiny bit of variety to quest type feeling. Instead of being strictly fetch quests like every other voyage, there is a little bit of variety, similar to having to kill skeletons to get the fetch item

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    @personalc0ffee said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    They aren't YOUR chests. You were sent there by the gold hoarders to get them and they give you a cut.

    A pirate would not give a darn whose chests they were. They were not particularly concerned with property rights.

  • DutchDeadSchot
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @perfecshionist aye! I would like to keep what be mine! And if I see it, it’s mine!

  • Sargent Sully
    Captain
    Insider

    @personalc0ffee May I make a suggestion? What about in the case of treasure chests that are the result of randomly coming across it or found via a treasure hunt/voyage found in a bottle?

  • Zynthetikk86
    Founder

    During the beta I suggested the idea of giving the player 2 options.

    1. You open the chest when you dig it up which either gives you gold or the chest is empty. No rep is given.

    2. You turn it in, this will always give you gold and increases hoarder rep.

    It's almost the same as your idea but it fell on deaf ears since it wasn't lore friendly in a game that has no lore.

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    @sargent-sully said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @personalc0ffee May I make a suggestion? What about in the case of treasure chests that are the result of randomly coming across it or found via a treasure hunt/voyage found in a bottle?

    They could work the same. You bring them back to you ship and can open them. They also produce valuables for rep/gold turn in with Hoarders just like turning in a randomly found chest does now.

  • FD RD
    Marauder

    @perfecshionist Now this is a really nice idea...I love how everyone bashing it has no arguments against it other than "it's not like that in the game".
    Boy, we know it isn't, and that's the problem.

  • MattyDove74
    Marauder

    @perfecshionist Where does the gold go? In the ship hold or the player? I am fine with either as long as both are fully lootable. The risk reward dynamic is the only thing that really makes this game interesting. The negative reviews speak to an empty game devoid of any real content, not people losing their chests.

  • FD RD
    Marauder

    @perfecshionist ha detto in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @sargent-sully said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @personalc0ffee May I make a suggestion? What about in the case of treasure chests that are the result of randomly coming across it or found via a treasure hunt/voyage found in a bottle?

    They could work the same. You bring them back to you ship and can open them. They also produce valuables for rep/gold turn in with Hoarders just like turning in a randomly found chest does now.

    Pretty sure he meant: "Why shouldn't the chests I find randomly across islands or from messages in a bottle be mine? Why should I return them like they gave me a quest?"

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    @fd-rd said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @perfecshionist ha detto in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @sargent-sully said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @personalc0ffee May I make a suggestion? What about in the case of treasure chests that are the result of randomly coming across it or found via a treasure hunt/voyage found in a bottle?

    They could work the same. You bring them back to you ship and can open them. They also produce valuables for rep/gold turn in with Hoarders just like turning in a randomly found chest does now.

    Pretty sure he meant: "Why shouldn't the chests I find randomly across islands or from messages in a bottle be mine? Why should I return them like they gave me a quest?"

    Technically, I am arguing that all treasure chest belong to the pirates that found/stole them and managed to get them to their ship and open them.

    The pirates keep the gold pieces.

    The lore explanation is that the Hoarder faction are fences that buy valuables that the pirates find and give the pirate gold in exchange for the valuables.

    Pirates gain reputation with the Hoarder faction for their ongoing business relationship. The reason the Hoarders provide the pirates maps and riddles to find buried treasure is that the Hoarders barter in valuables and information on where valuables can be found. However, they are unscrupulous and cowardly merchants that do not want to accept the individual risk of venturing on the seas in search of treasure. Instead they are content with getting a cut of the treasure trade and they buy and sell information and buy and sell non-cash valuables.

  • FD RD
    Marauder

    @perfecshionist Yes, I wasn't clear in my last post, that guy was answering to personalc0ffee who argued the treasure chests are not yours.
    That said I agree with what you say and support your idea, I mean it doesn't even break the "deal" between gold hoarders and pirates.

  • GateShark
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @perfecshionist I like your idea. Hopefully Rare will consider it.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @sargent-sully a dit dans Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design. :

    @personalc0ffee May I make a suggestion? What about in the case of treasure chests that are the result of randomly coming across it or found via a treasure hunt/voyage found in a bottle?

    Impudent ! Making suggestions on a video game forum ? GET OUT OF HERE ! Rare is god-like, nothing can be improved because they are all-knowing. Everybody knows that.

    On a more serious note, in an old trailer of the game, you can see a player opening a chest : https://youtu.be/1z48qvGsA_0?t=1m37s

    Imo, they didn't keep that idea because it was more convenient for the PvP aspect of the game.

    But yeah, it would be awesome if at least some of the chests could be openened, maybe the one we find randomly, or maybe sometimes, skeletons could have a very low chance to drop a key that could open any chest (better the chest, better the chance of getting a good reward). Inside, it could be a random amount of money, it could be a random skin.
    Because i agree, it's kinda frustrating not being able to open chests ourselves. Even if i get why they did it that way, it's frustrating nonetheless.

  • Sargent Sully
    Captain
    Insider

    @aenima123 Plus take the chests in the shipwrecks for instance. Many have the metal casting/fittings on them rusted through or peeled partially off. Those should be able to opened with a proper strike.

  • Trenix90
    Marauder
    Insider

    AKA, I want to obtain the gold from chests automatically so it can't be stolen by PvP players. Nice one, almost had me.

  • AuGunslingin
    Founder

    You could technically have both. Any treasure maps not from the Gold Hoarders, could be pick and the treasure directly collected.

    It would be more fun to have a lock box of some sort that could be picked and leveled like a faction. The gems collected could then be added to items in the game. Pirate bling!

  • KoolGoldfinch

    I think this idea has a lot of potential and it should be looked into whether this is a viable feature or not, and should be tooled with to see if they could make it work.

    I only have 2 problems with this idea. The first problem I have with it is that this system of looting would diminish the risk/reward feedback the game currently has when encountering another player's ship. I think the current all-or-nothing system works perfectly because it's an all-or-nothing system. High-risk/High-reward scenarios cause adrenaline-pumping situations, and this system would actually hurt that aspect of the game quite a bit.

    The second (and much more concerning) problem is that this system would create a huge imbalance in quest types. There would be absolutely no reason to do either of the other mission types, as Merchant quests are tedious enough as they are, and Souls missions would then become the only high-risk situations - more than likely for a very similar payout to the Gold Hoarder's quests. Why would you do the other quests which require you to go back to the Outpost to claim your Gold when you could just do the Gold Hoarders' quest and be guaranteed the payout instantly?

    Unfortunately, without some tooling around, I'm sure that this system would break the game. I really like the idea and I like where your head's at with this one, and I think it should be fiddled with to see if it can be made to work without breaking the current system, but I don't know if that is possible.

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    @trenix90 said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    AKA, I want to obtain the gold from chests automatically so it can't be stolen by PvP players. Nice one, almost had me.

    You did not read it or understand it.

    First, the chest will have a valuable item required for turn in. Which rewards treasure and rep. So there would still be something to steal.

    Second, since players get some gold out of the chest an entire voyage effort is not tied into the token so they are psychologically more likely to push their luck and keep searching for treasure chests while still having the valuables on their ship.

    Third, since it requires all the crew to be alive, present, and click on the chest it is not "immediate" and their efforts can be disrupted by other players making the effort to get a chest back to the ship and open it a potential PVP event.

  • CaveManCronch

    @trenix90 considering people in the game sink you whether you have chests or not its a rather mute point you made.

  • Le Joli Rouge
    Marauder
    Insider

    Broken Core Mechanic

    As you know, Sea of Thieves isn't PVP-oriented, nor PVE-oriented: it's both. Rare designed a system where you can play with pure PVE mechanics, but with the fear of being attacked and stolen anytime by another player. A feeling that was seeked by the game designers, as they explained:

    "We've made decisions where all quest rewards are physical, and all of that stuff is never truly yours until you get back to the outpost. We believe in the paranoia of having that stuff on the ship because you know that someone can come and take it." (source)

    You say this could give a better experience of the game, I say this is changing the whole nature of the game by cutting the link between PVE and PVP they cherish. Both are always connected and even made to mix together, as the Skeleton Forts proves it with that huge skull cloud visible to anyone, everywhere.

    The chest is almost like a capture the flag mode. You need to strategize on your voyage, scout around you, and fight when needed, to keep it. Otherwise there is almost no reason for doing voyages. The only difficulty relies on the fact of carrying the loots: risk of being attacked by hostile players, risk of sinking the ship with cursed chest, risk of being atacked by the kraken with a lot of gold onboard, risk of loosing it if you don't end your journey.

    Without the risk of losing, there is no game.

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    @thejolirouge said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    Broken Core Mechanic

    As you know, Sea of Thieves isn't PVP-oriented, nor PVE-oriented: it's both. Rare designed a system where you can play with pure PVE mechanics, but with the fear of being attacked and stolen anytime by another player. A feeling that was seeked by the game designers, as they explained:

    "We've made decisions where all quest rewards are physical, and all of that stuff is never truly yours until you get back to the outpost. We believe in the paranoia of having that stuff on the ship because you know that someone can come and take it." (source)

    You say this could give a better experience of the game, I say this is changing the whole nature of the game by cutting the link between PVE and PVP they cherish. Both are always connected and even made to mix together, as the Skeleton Forts proves it with that huge skull cloud visible to anyone, everywhere.

    The chest is almost like a capture the flag mode. You need to strategize on your voyage, scout around you, and fight when needed, to keep it. Otherwise there is almost no reason for doing voyages. The only difficulty relies on the fact of carrying the loots: risk of being attacked by hostile players, risk of sinking the ship with cursed chest, risk of being atacked by the kraken with a lot of gold onboard, risk of loosing it if you don't end your journey.

    Without the risk of losing, there is no game.

    Are you responding to the right thread? Since you posted such a long explanation it appears you thought about the issue you are addressing so I do not want to dismiss you as having not read what I posted.

    However, my recommendation would increase PVP opportunities not diminish them. Right now PVP usually has zero rewards.

    My suggestions mean the chests will still be fought over, the valuables tokens in the chest can be fought over ( the valuables that need to be returned to the quest giver still provide the "flag" that players try to capture), and players are more likely to risk hoarding valuables on their ships meaning there is a greater chance a ship will still have valuables on it.

  • Johhn0
    Master
    Insider

    I think its actually an awesome idea.

    To reiterate the OP's points.

    • There is still risk associated with loot, as chests would reward Items that are handed in for the gold hoarders. So the PVP risk vs reward mechanics are still in play. Read this again for those nay sayers - Nothing would change, ships would still be full of loot, it just wouldnt look like a chest, you would see more of the other items / trinkets.

    • There is a small amount of instant gratification when opening the chest on your ship or on the Island. Rewards are incremental, rather than tied into one big hand in which has it's issues: Disconnecting being the biggest one (lol @Rare-Employee how come I am more scared of disconnecting then other Pirates)

    • It simply makes more sense.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @perfecshionist after rereading your post, since a player still has valuables that need to be turned in I can get behind it. A little gold reward for actually doing the quest is fine however the main source should still be from turning the valuables in the chest in.

    If you have any ideas for souls or merchant quests please share. As for right now merchant quests are the hardest for the least reward because you get nothing not even xp until the quest is done, it has a time limit, it requires cages to complete that if lost are very difficult to find (usually better just to canceling the voyage), and you have to turn the valuables in to a specific outpost so if it’s being camped by a crew good luck.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @thejolirouge reread it. I initially thought as you but he stated you find valuables in the chest that you still need to bring back for gold. Or keep on your skull shelf :)

  • Perfecshionist
    Seafarer

    @i-am-lost-77 said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    @perfecshionist after rereading your post, since a player still has valuables that need to be turned in I can get behind it. A little gold reward for actually doing the quest is fine however the main source should still be from turning the valuables in the chest in.

    If you have any ideas for souls or merchant quests please share. As for right now merchant quests are the hardest for the least reward because you get nothing not even xp until the quest is done, it has a time limit, it requires cages to complete that if lost are very difficult to find (usually better just to canceling the voyage), and you have to turn the valuables in to a specific outpost so if it’s being camped by a crew good luck.

    I have a great idea to revise Merchants (I will post it tomorrow) and some suggested improvements for Soul.

    I also have 6 other factions complete with quest designs styles and titles I want to suggest.

    However, so far I have seen no engagement by rare or evidence they are listening, and a lot of upvotes on posts that say things like "The current mechanics are fine".

    It is disheartening. I am worried Rare is not listening and most of the players that want to see new content and designs have already moved on.

    At first the players who thought the quest design and content was fine was a tiny minority. But as players have left they have become a greater percentage of the remaining player base.

    I am worried that it is that niche of gamers Rare will be stuck catering to and the game will get very little new content or new quest designs.

    So while I want to post all my suggestions, especially the 6 factions. It would take a lot of time and effort and I worry it would just be received by the remaining player base with a "Do not want" with respect to changes.

  • I Am Lost 77

    @perfecshionist don’t worry keep posting and Rare will see it. In the end it’s up to them to implement and even if people in the forums voice their opinions against it. If it’s good and Rare likes it we just might see it! This is what the forum needs IDEAS not complaints!

    My suggestion: bold the part where there is still treasure to steal in your original post lol I was almost against it myself.

  • The Old Soul800
    Marauder
    Insider

    For my part I was actually quite dumbfounded when I learned I can't open my chest myself.

    The only thing that amazes me more than that for this game is the fact people are arguing against it.

    Now I'm not sure what my opinion on having the game be all-or-nothing or not is, but the fact of the matter is that they can keep the all-or-nothing setup and still have you open your own chests.

    Just either set up something at outposts for opening them (whether it's a new npc or just a sledgehammer chained to a post), or have a gold containing barrel/box on ships and "banks" at outposts (Where gold isn't added to your spendable funds until you put it in the "bank." Gold not yet delivered to the "bank" would be a carried item like skulls are.).

    My vote is on the second option.
    Picture it, in your ship is a bigger chest, one that's a stationary part of the ship same as barrels, and left open. The amount of gold in the chest could alter the appearance, with a changing visual amount of gold in it based on the amount actually in it.
    Players (you or enemies) could press "F" on the chest to take a set amount of gold (the set amount would be the max a player can hold at once, obviously if a chest has less they pick up the lesser amount), which wold be carried in their hand as a coin pouch. The devs can just take the skull asset and edit the art.
    The Gold Hoarders can be the bank , so we don't even need to add a new thing to outposts.
    Chest problem fixed, Gold Hoarders not broken, All-or-Nothing balance kept.

    Another thing has to be said to all thepeople who went against the desire to open our chest for balance (or similar) reasons:

    The ultimate truth of the matter is that some things are more important than balance, balance needs to be done around those things, and the fact that you should open your own chests in a pirate game is one of those things.

    ....Mayhaps I should make a separate thread for my version of the idea...

  • Mastucauz
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I had thought of this idea yesterday .. but more precisely the function of having the keys. Find the key quests to open certain chests. Each key opens its own. and you can decide whether to open it and find maybe a shoe inside .. or sell it closed and take the money normally. the keys you carry with you can only be stolen if you are killed. the keys will have the same names as the chests. so the captain's key opens only the Captain's chest. if a person kills you you drop the key as loot he picks it up and can choose whether or not to open the chest. then challenge fate. the objects you find inside must always be physical so that they can always be stolen from them.
    so doing so will be much more difficult and different types of loot more varied. moreover the possibility is added as you have proposed to open the chests that I think is an essential thing. I do not know if you managed to understand me .. I used the translator 😂😂

  • HonestFuture85

    What's an honest working pirate gotta do to see some booty?

  • Airaya
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @zynthetikk86 said in Pirate game with treasure chest you can't open is bad design.:

    During the beta I suggested the idea of giving the player 2 options.

    1. You open the chest when you dig it up which either gives you gold or the chest is empty. No rep is given.

    2. You turn it in, this will always give you gold and increases hoarder rep.

    It's almost the same as your idea but it fell on deaf ears since it wasn't lore friendly in a game that has no lore.

    OH. I really like this idea. If you try to open the chest for yourself, then it can be a random loot or there's a possibility that there's nothing inside.

    I like it because if you want to be safe, you'd want to turn it over to the Hoarders for rep and gold.

  • FellowNick3
    Marauder
    Insider

    Great idea

  • Vaca Hombre
    Champion
    Boatswain
    Founder

    The in-game explanation is that only the Gold Hoarders' skeleton keys can open chests from the sea of thieves.

    Other than that.... I mean, the idea could certainly work, but it seems like a bit of a nitpick. Of the things I think Rare should be working on, chest opening animations are pretty low on the list.

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