Double Gunning

  • My biggest problem with quickswap is spawn camping on a ship to get the sink. If you are killed before you even have the chance to move after spawning is not a fair fight in any way. There is no chance of recovery. There could be a couple of fixes for this.

    Change Spawning Mechanic: This is my preferred mechanism.
    Players spawn first as "ghosts" that can first move to any location on the ship. Jumping, climbing or hitting the attack button causes the player to fully render in and be able to take damage. This means spawn campers can't just site with line of site on all or most spawn points and fire twice as soon as someone appears.

    Remove ammo box & allow reloads from armory.
    No ammo box means no way for quickswap players to reload unless an ammo box has been brought on board. They will either have to return to their ship to reload giving the defenders a chance to recover or resort to using blunder bombs/ other weapons. Crew who belong to the ship can still reload by going into the armory. I do not mean by switching weapons. Just opening the armory reloads all ranged weapons.

    While we are at it, please put an armory at reapers both upstairs and down in the lair!

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  • It's not fair at all if you loose command of yours ship then you emmm you know loose.

    Breaking spawn camp is same as silencie enemy cananons or last ditch save from sink by bucket in pocket.

  • @ghutar
    I am not certain what you are talking about here.

  • I mean that if you are spawn-camped that means you allready heavy loosing / lost that fight.
    Breaking free from it is same "close call" situation as saving ship from sinking in last seconds byc diffrent means. And there is no additional mechanic for that .

    So giving eny addional mechanic for easier breaking spawncamp it is kinda unfair becouse you allmost allready lost that engagment.

  • @ghutar
    No, you can (and I have) nailed their ship in navel first with very little damage on your own but all they need to spawn camp is one double gunner to be on your ship while you respawn. This primary happens with larger vs smaller crews.

    We have already had an additional mechanic added, not being able to be revived on enemy ships, so is that unfair?

    What would be unfair about allowing someone to get their bearings rather than being shot before even having the chance to move?

    By your logic all we should have to do is kill the other side and then they automatically die providing you only have one person on their boat. Why give them a chance to spawn at all!

  • @miserenz Honestly, it’s just a skill issue—if you can’t kill someone at least once, that’s on you, and I feel like the spawns are completely random.

  • @toshctdm5079 so the explain how to get out of the situation if your so skilled

  • Spawncamping to secure the sink is a fundamental tactic.
    No need to change anything, as it works as intended.

    Since the removal of quickswap, quickswap only still works with the sword so that argument doesn't even make any sense.
    Exept if you met a cheater, which would be a different issue.

  • @miserenz

    Players spawn first as "ghosts" that can first move to any location on the ship. Jumping, climbing or hitting the attack button causes the player to fully render in and be able to take damage. This means spawn campers can't just site with line of site on all or most spawn points and fire twice as soon as someone appears.

    Either this would give a broken advantage, or be completely useless.

    If you're visible as a ghost, your spawncampers just follow you until you render in and insta cross you.

    If you're invisible as a ghost, you just render in behind your enemy and get a cheap shot for an easy two tap/sword stunlock.

  • @toshctdm5079
    I am talking about dying before you even have the chance to move. Did you even read the post?

  • @dermasterbob

    You seem to have not read what I wrote. I have no problem boarding and killing players after they spawn to secure the sink. My problem is with getting killed before you even have the chance to move.

  • @worst-tdmer

    Ok then lets work shop the idea.

    You spawn in as in invisible ghost. You can look around on the spot, but not move. This gives you the chance to get orientated, as soon as you move then you render in.

    Camping players can avoid the cheap shot by moving around themselves.

  • @miserenz

    You can look around on the spot, but not move. This gives you the chance to get orientated, as soon as you move then you render in.

    Realistically, this would change nothing. You're still spawning in the same places that campers know to expect, the same options for movement are available to you right now. If you don't know how to break a camp right now, a few seconds of planning isn't going to change that.

    Even if spawn locations were completely randomized, there are "hot zones" on each ship and spots that give boarders an advantage over those hot zones.

    The best "fix"/counter to spawncamping is improving your TDM/movement. There's a reason TDM/camp wars/ram strat/evil-mode is so popular with all the kids, it's on demand practice. Become the camper and you'll know how they think, what their strategies are, what makes them whiff, etc. and you'll be in a much better position to break a camp on your ship.

  • Guard your ladders, protect your ship from boarders. You already have abilities to do that, if you lost control over you ship - you lost the fight. Admit it, scuttle and move on.

  • @worst-tdmer
    For the umtenth time. The issue is DYING before you have the chance to move. Some of us do not have fiber to our houses, or are playing with friends on the other side of the country. There is no skill issue he but a lag issue that favours double gunners. There is no fixing this by personal improvement.

    BUT I think a better solution would be ghost mode , you spawn in invisable. You can move around freely but cannot see other players. Hitting the use key, interacting with a ladder or leaving the ship spawns you in.

  • @safer-seaser
    I do guard ladders but news flash, there are other ways of boarding ships, have you heard of deck shots or ramming?

  • @miserenz

    You don't need fiber to have a good ping, and bad ping goes both ways. If you're lagging all around the ship it's just as hard to hit you as it is for you to hit them. I've played on servers on the other side of the world from me plenty of times, and have never had an issue with dying before I can move.

    Ghost mode would just be putting boarders at an unfair disadvantage after they've already fought an uphill battle to earn their advantage. Getting/staying on an enemy boat is already a hard thing to do if you're defending right, even with rams/deckshots, let alone wiping the enemy team.

    Think about it at the highest level, imagine you're fighting some insanely cracked duo and somehow manage to board and wipe them, but they have just enough time to spawn in and get a bucket. Now your reward for that hard earned board is getting cheap shotted by both of them at the same time as they spawn behind you. You die, they save their boat, and you lose the fight because of it.

  • bro just deal with it, sometimes u sink. esp if you are outnumbered its just an uphill battle from the start and if you are not way above their skilllvl u just gonna sink most of the time. so stop blaming mechanics, DG, QS or watever. everything needs to be balanced for everyone. not just for a solo fighting bigger ships.

  • @miserenz aren't you able to kill deckshotted player? Is your armory get disabled when somebody board your vessel? Move your boat in opposite direction so you won't get rammed. What is the problem here developers can fix?

  • @miserenz said in Double Gunning:

    @worst-tdmer
    For the umtenth time. The issue is DYING before you have the chance to move. Some of us do not have fiber to our houses, or are playing with friends on the other side of the country. There is no skill issue he but a lag issue that favours double gunners. There is no fixing this by personal improvement.

    BUT I think a better solution would be ghost mode , you spawn in invisable. You can move around freely but cannot see other players. Hitting the use key, interacting with a ladder or leaving the ship spawns you in.

    I always have bad ping. I play from Hawaii and at best I get 90, which is fine really, but usually I’m more like 120-170. Latency is a little more forgiving in sot than in dedicated first person shooters, so you aren’t penalized quite as much as say… counter strike where 90 ping is noticeably not good. You can go on youtube and find HG videos of players with very high ping doing great. Does that mean ping doesn’t matter? No, it does, but it doesn’t mean you can’t be successful. Now if your ping is 400 that’s another story.

    What ping are you playing with?

  • @miserenz

    A year or two ago, ammo boxes had a chain around them, with the intended mechanic that boarders would have to solve a puzzle/lockpick/whatever (something like that) in order to gain access to your ammo box. I guess this caused an uproar, and it was scrapped.

  • Spawn campers were already a problem before and now they are going to have QS built into the game to make them even stronger. As long as hitreg doesn't happen, the double gunners will be unstoppable in spawncamps.

    I do think that we should be able to spawn and look around for maybe 3 seconds before we can be damaged again. Moving, bringing out your weapon, jumping, crouching, bringing out a throwable, all those sorts of things should immediately end the invulnerability, but not looking around. That would prevent you from being able to shoot while invincible and would prevent them from being able to shoot you with absolutely no awareness. The fact that I can stand on a sloops bed and that gives me an additional 90% chance to win any PvP encounter is broken. I shouldn't be able to stand in a corner because I know the game is gonna spawn him looking away from me, and I'll be able to hit him before he is given control back to him, so he basically spawn in with half health, a sword in his back, and no way to know where I am before I kill him. At least one blunders are gone so you can't spawn in dead. It's an unfortunate meta to take advantage of spawn locations. For a while, bone callers had ESP, so you could throw a bony tony down and they would move to where the player was going to spawn, and you could kill them immediately literally just as they were stepping off the ferry. I think the ammo box being blocked from an enemy crew is not a good idea, only 10 shots is often not a guarantee that you will win, especially in a scenario where a duo is sending one person to board another duo (or bigger) boat. 2 hits to kill, on 2 enemies, is 40% of your ammo with 100% accuracy. 80% of your ammo with 50% accuracy, and all of that assumes they never eat or take cover. Getting rid of the ammo box would make all boarding basically useless, since your opponent gets to reload and you don't. I get that QSers are annoying, but no ammo crate ruins regular play too. Sometimes you need to spawncamp someone until they sink. Spawncamping isn't all bad, as long as you are doing it with the intention to sink them. So if I have a few holes in your boat, and you have no holes in mine, and I board you to stop you from repping and bucketing, I am only allowed to have 10 bullets unless I slow swim an ammo crate over? 10 shots is almost assuredly not enough to kill you more than 3 times if you eat or dodge at all, and will only be enough to kill you 5 times if I hit every shot. I don't see a solution to spawncamping from skilled players, but I do see QS as something that buffs them while ruining balance. Instead of QS, we need base game stability fixed. They say they've fixed parts of hitreg over and over but they never really have. Hitreg only gets worse.

    Armoury at reapers sounds like a good idea actually. There's like 3 or 4 ammo crates.

  • @europa4033
    I must have missed that on insiders

  • @capt-greldik

    Similar ping. Unless you are in a city, its quite easily to end up with 90-120 as the best you can get. Often I am playing with 140-180.

    My regular crew are spread across the EU, NZ, Mexico & east coast of the US. So we always have someone with bad ping. The NZ player hoovers around 300. I play SoT to hang out with my friends who have moved apart & as a result we have added a few new ones as well. So finding new crew is not the answer here. More

    Now if the double gunner has a ping of 20-30 you have zero chance. Having some sort of system for respawns that evens the playing field but not having either the spawner or the boarder get the jump would be fair.

    So I think I have settled on:
    You spawn on the boat in the incorporeal state. You can not be seen or see other players. You can not take or inflict damage. So you can run around the ship to position yourself at a new spot. To become corporeal you have to do either a) leave the ship (i.e jump over the side) or b) hit the fire key.

  • @worst-tdmer
    For the umtenth time. The issue is DYING before you have the chance to move. How many times do I need to write that for you? There is no "lagging all around the ship" here. If you have not had the issue of dying before you can move, clearly you have been very lucky. This happens to me when ever a double gunner gets on the ship.

    Ghost mode: You spawn on the boat in the incorporeal state. You can not be seen or see other players. You can not take or inflict damage. So you can run around the ship to position yourself at a new spot. To become corporeal you have to do either a) leave the ship (i.e jump over the side) or b) hit the fire key. There is no advantage for either side here.

  • @safer-seaser
    I do not understand anything you are saying.

  • @miserenz said in Double Gunning:

    Ghost mode: You spawn on the boat in the incorporeal state. You can not be seen or see other players. You can not take or inflict damage. So you can run around the ship to position yourself at a new spot. To become corporeal you have to do either a) leave the ship (i.e jump over the side) or b) hit the fire key. There is no advantage for either side here.

    So when you hit the fire key (at random as you can't see other players), you just gave away your position and emptied your gun and have to reload ... (or switch and then reload)

    Also, a crewmate can tell you where any opponents are.

    Needs some work IMHO.

  • @miserenz

    I disagree with the idea that you have zero chance. That was my original point. I’ve also played with ping between 250-300 on servers with an Aussie friend. For some reason he always gets 180 to west coast NA servers, but I always get 250 to his servers. Playing with ping that high is janky and annoying, but you certainly have a chance. Also, as someone else pointed out, it can be difficult to hit someone with high ping as their movement appears odd due to their ping.

    On YouTube you’ll find many HG videos with people playing out of their region and doing very well.

    I consistently have bad ping and I’m never in a position where I don’t have a chance. That doesn’t mean I haven’t been camped countless times, and perhaps my ping played a role in some or all of them, but my ability to move a little bit around the ship is always there. When I die in that scenario it’s usually due to my engaging with the enemy in an attempt to kill them.

  • @miserenz you want to adjust the game for you just because you can't protect your ship from boarders.
    Spawn protection is something that spawn campers would like. You spawn unkillable grab a bucket died, repeat. What is the point of this? You just want to be camped for eternity grabbing bucket every time you spawn?
    Locking ammo box will break the boarding completely, sometimes you need to kill ship owners for few times to get boat sunk, with limited ammo it is impossible.
    Your complaint sound like skill difference issue, you have weapons and throwables to defend your self and your vessel.

  • you spawn as a ghost then all the person has to do is walk up to you and wait for you to come out of ghost form. That actually makes it easier for the attacker and if you make it so you can get a shot off before you come out of ghost form then that is just way to overpowered.

  • @lem0n-curry
    Hitting the fire button does not fire the gun, it DE-ghosts you. Hitting it again would fire. So you give away nothing. Or make it the reload key.

    If your crew mate tells you where they are, that means they are fighting them, moving around. So not that big a deal compared to a stationary target.

    @capt-greldik
    I say, yet again. BEFORE I can move bang dead, So yeah in that situation zero chance. I have also come back and taken back control of my ship, so this is not every time but enough for me to notice that Double Gunners have an unfair advantage in holding a ship when their ping is lower than the person they are fighting.. Some people may not have good enough ping/main to double tap before the other player has a chance to move. So the poor ping bounce around side of things does not come into play.

    @safer-seaser
    Its not a skill difference issue, its a latency issue, period. THAT is what I am talking about. Skill difference does not enter into it if you are getting double tapped BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN MOVE.

    @ez-4-frdi
    You did not read the suggestion. When you are in ghost form, you can not be seen, take damage or see other players do damage. All it means is you get a brief preview of the area to orientate yourself. Your hit box and location don't end up spawning in before you can move.

  • @miserenz said in Double Gunning:

    @lem0n-curry
    Hitting the fire button does not fire the gun, it DE-ghosts you. Hitting it again would fire. So you give away nothing. Or make it the reload key.

    If your crew mate tells you where they are, that means they are fighting them, moving around. So not that big a deal compared to a stationary target.

    Still, when they are communicating, they can use the ghosted person as an advantage; e.g. against a double-gunning person the crew mate is drawing fire, opponent needs to get ammo, ghosted person posistions themselves near the ammobox, at ready-go from the crewmate, de-ghosts and fires his blunderbuss and the crewmate can finish the fight.

  • @miserenz

    Well, I play with high ping all of the time (to include extremes in other regions) and many players have videos on YouTube playing with very high ping doing really well. So, again, I don’t see how your experience is any different than anyone else playing with moderately to high ping. I/they can do it, what makes you different?

    Also, you mentioned in an earlier post that you’re sometimes playing with friends from “the other side of the country”. Based on this I'm assuming you’re NA. I’ve lived on both sides of the country, in the middle, and now in Hawaii, and I gamed in all of those locations. If you’re playing from NA with someone who’s also NA, no matter where the two of you are located within NA, you’ll always have a better ping than I get from Hawaii to west coast server(s).

    Sorry, but ping isn’t your issue. Perhaps your PC? Not much left to say here. You’ll respond saying it’s impossible for you to succeed even though others with similar or higher pings don’t have your problem, but it’s simply not a ping issue.

    Good luck out there.

  • @miserenz that still doesn't solve your original complaint. All that means is that you can see where you're being "instantly two tapped" from.

  • @lem0n-curry
    That is a fair concern but I do not think it would not happen often but if we want to make it happen almost never give a timer, 3 seconds and you automatic de-ghost

    @capt-greldik
    For the record I do very well. Our sink to sunk ratio is heavily in my favor, prob around 8-10 to 1 on a bad night. PC is not top of the line but only 2 years old and has specks well above what SOT needs. Point is that you should not die before you even have a chance to move in any game. Good luck to you too.

    @ez-4-frdi
    Ah no, b/c you become a moving target, able to dodge etc. So while you could still get two tapped it would not occur instantly or every time.

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